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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On November 20 2013 10:05 U_G_L_Y wrote:TheDwf wrote: Against 2 Gateways in my base, I use 11/11 and I build my Barracks between my CC and geysers; against a single Gateway, 12/14 should be enough. Regardless of your building layout you will have to micro anyway, so pull back SCVs after they take 2 hits and remember that a Marine cannot take any hit from a Zealot if you move it manually with caution. Proxies outside your base are simply thwarted by a wall. You have to decide whether to make a wall by your first depot, and if you do, you will automatically lose that depot for free to a stalker/MSC poke. So I should just accept that fact or be scouting on 10 supply? What am I missing here, because this seems seriously broken http://drop.sc/365558
Sorry, the text you quote was from the old WoL Terran Help Me Thread, and it turned out to be obsolete in HotS. Walling is indeed risky.
What you tried (second rax + "embedded" bunk) was right, but the execution cost you the game: no MULE (it's critical to drop it as soon as the Orbital is ready since you may have to move all your SCVs), some delay (13 seconds, i. e. half a Marine) between the Reaper and the Marine, not anticipating the destruction of your supply at the entrance of your base resulting in a supply block at the worst possible time, and not having constant SCV production (important as you will lose some of them). This kind of quick attack tends to make you panic, so staying calm and remembering the basics (Marine/SCV/depot production) is the key for a successful defence.
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On November 22 2013 08:30 Sakoha wrote:
I'm having a lot of micro troubles in TvP late game. I just can't seem to beat templar + archon + cols with bio + ghost + viking. Just came out of a game where my opponent was stuck on low econ due to me dropping and sniping his third (while I was on 5 base) but I couldn't seal the deal and eventually got crushed after attempting to do a BC transition.
How do you guys micro against templar + archon + cols when toss is maxed? Or is the point to never let toss max and constantly force engagements instead of hitting harvesters? His sentry micro wasn't too poor either.
This might be the hardest engagement to "win" consistently. Assuming neither army has a supply, or composition advantage, It comes down the engagement. Every engagement is different so there is no one right way, but if you are losing consistently then you are probably doing something wrong. I hope someone better than me can answer this better but here is my 2 cents.
-Lead with vikings, they are extremely microable and can often get good positions by just flying them around and waiting for a good time to strike.
-Don't chase into storms. A good toss will retreat from your army while laying down storm cover. DO NOT take the bait. Just pull back and make sure those ghosts are in front.
-EMPs are the most important factor. Loosing all your ghosts for emp-ing zealots is not good. They should always be in front of your bio to protect the bio from storm, but don't ever give ghosts away. What I like to do is move my army towards toss, lead with a few blanket emps and pull back ghosts slightly while the bio ball and vikes fight. I don't bother kiting unless storms are landing. The rest of my ghost energy is focused on high priority targets, clumps of templar, archons immortals.
-The best advice I can give is remember Terran's biggest advantage. SCANS! Scan all over his army and see where everything is. Don't let his observers be out in front. Ghosts will outrange templar, but emp is a almost a skill shot so know its range and lead the target slightly. Remember, a full HT needs more than one emp to drain its energy. Also an emped templar only needs one snipe. If you land a one or two emps on a group of templar, you can start one-shotting them with snipe. And don't stop scanning during the battle, especially once all the colossus are dead. Once vikes snipe all the obs you can cloak your ghosts and basically win. Hope this helps. Watch teaja vs rain, on whirlwind. Shit was nuts.
Try watching your replays from the toss camera. What is his vision?
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What do you guys think about using a proxy 11/11 reaper build as a meta game counter to 1-1-1 cloak? In lower level play I have seen a lot of success with it because players cant build enough marines off one rax to force by reapers away, and by the time hellions start coming out I have a critical number of reapers to face them. I was just wondering if this has been tried in higher leagues (diamond or above) by anyone, and if it was successful?
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Thanks mate for the heads up on the whirlwind game. I'm feeling based on your suggestions, I just need to do what I'm already doing, only better.
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Reapers proxy are always very strong if not scouted. But if your proxy is detected you are basically dead because a 2 rax marines with a single bunker will do the job. If the guy is cocky enough he can also beat you at your own game if he opened 12/12 by adding a second rax and go reaper himself.
With reaper proxy you will kill any reaper expand play which are very common and you have a good chance vs banshee opening if they build a reactor for rax.
I don't like it personnaly because I enjoy TvT in all state of the game so I don't allin in matchups I love.
A good meta counter vs 1-1-1 cloak is a simple reaper expand. you can deny easily banshee harass with well placed mines and turrets and you can scout almost always that it is a 1-1-1 cloak+ you can counter with medivac drop + mines which will make him throw either scan or turrets evening things in terms of defense invested. I have a very good winrate vs banshee openers using reaper expand build at diamond level and when I loose it is often because of mid/lategame mistakes anyway.
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I have a question vs Z.
I play in Master League at quite high level (just to place my skill-level).
The question is what I should use all my gas for Lategame. On many maps when I go up vs Zerg and I have four bases, if I saturete all gases I mostly end up floating +4000 Gas.
I mostly have One or Two Reactored Starports producing Medivacs, also 2 Factories producing mines. However this is not enough Gas-units to make me able to spend all the gas I get.
What is the best way to get rid of all this gas? Is it to produce Thors? Tanks? Ravens?
I want to point out that I am always low on Minerals, so in theory I could have a Factory producing a Thor instead of 6 Marines or 3 Marauders. That would give me a unit worth of 300 Minerals, 200 Gas instead of 300 Minerals (for the six marines) and I would actually make use of my Gas.
Do anyone have advices for what is the best gas-dump for TvZ?
As of now I have started just ignoring taking Gas on my third and fourth and using the gas income I get to add Reactors and Tech Labs which feels.. "wrong".
I also wonder how Ghost would work as gas dump. They dont have Stim, can they be worth adding if I realise that I float shitloads of gas? How much stronger is a Ghost compared two 2 Marines. Mostly thinking that Ghost does not have stim and therefore are not as mobile as the Marines.
How do Ghosts do vs Ultras?
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Ghosts are no good gas dump because they cost 200/100 and are crappy vs zerg that now always have flying detection running around. My loved gas dump is into ravens! Best gas dump ever imo because it can make mutas runaway and it can protect well tanks if you have some.
A slower gas dump would be to full upgrade mech upgrade and go for full BC/raven transition to kill mutas ling bling ultra.
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On November 22 2013 19:06 klup wrote:
Ghosts are no good gas dump because they cost 200/100 and are crappy vs zerg that now always have flying detection running around. My loved gas dump is into ravens! Best gas dump ever imo because it can make mutas runaway and it can protect well tanks if you have some.
A slower gas dump would be to full upgrade mech upgrade and go for full BC/raven transition to kill mutas ling bling ultra.
Do you have any replays to support the Raven Theory?
Would be glad to see when Starports are added and how the Ravens are being used.
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Ravens with bio do vs mutalingbling do sound funny, I dont think I have seen it ever. Avilo does mass ravens with mech/skyterran in every MU thoug, check out his stream...
With bio, I see a lot of pros mix in thors, they cant hurt.
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On November 22 2013 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:
I have a question vs Z.
I play in Master League at quite high level (just to place my skill-level).
The question is what I should use all my gas for Lategame. On many maps when I go up vs Zerg and I have four bases, if I saturete all gases I mostly end up floating +4000 Gas.
I mostly have One or Two Reactored Starports producing Medivacs, also 2 Factories producing mines. However this is not enough Gas-units to make me able to spend all the gas I get.
What is the best way to get rid of all this gas? Is it to produce Thors? Tanks? Ravens?
I want to point out that I am always low on Minerals, so in theory I could have a Factory producing a Thor instead of 6 Marines or 3 Marauders. That would give me a unit worth of 300 Minerals, 200 Gas instead of 300 Minerals (for the six marines) and I would actually make use of my Gas.
Do anyone have advices for what is the best gas-dump for TvZ?
As of now I have started just ignoring taking Gas on my third and fourth and using the gas income I get to add Reactors and Tech Labs which feels.. "wrong".
I also wonder how Ghost would work as gas dump. They dont have Stim, can they be worth adding if I realise that I float shitloads of gas? How much stronger is a Ghost compared two 2 Marines. Mostly thinking that Ghost does not have stim and therefore are not as mobile as the Marines.
How do Ghosts do vs Ultras?
In TvZ there is no necessary Gas Dump..... If you play standard 4M style banking gas is normal and you really only need to be mining gas out of 3 bases because even with this you will start to bank some gas because of how little gas you use.
As you stated before your mineral is low so to spend the gas you have to cut marines or Marauders which these units are more cost efficient then spending it on Tank or Thor in most situations. If the muta count starts getting High Going 1-2 Thors to Zone out Muta from killing mines efficiently is ok like MMA in the Season Finals which is usually best done when you are ahead in bases but the muta count is high. Ravens are only used against BL / Cor / Infestor play otherwise you could get caught with yoru pants down if they go an ultra switch because ravens do little if no damage to ultra.......
Personally I think you are looking at this wrong way tbh.... it shouldn't be "Im mining money so where should i be spending it" it should be "why am I mining this and Do I have to or could this supply be spent into army rather than in workers." Especially when you are playing Late game against zerg having a Massive army is way more effective and helpful than having 4k gas right?
Edit: Sorry I dind't realize i missed your ghost question but it has seem to be answered pretty sufficiently. Ghosts are a HORRIBLE idea in TvZ after the nerf to the snipe you can't legitimately use them in any scenario espeicaly because the cost has also been nerfed by upping the price..... 1 Ghost costs 4 Marines and Gas and take way longer to produce and they are easily insta killed by the zerg army. You can use them to embarrass a lower league player and have some fun with them with nukes but besides that they are not a legitimate unit to produce as you will lose building them in a real fight.....
You want gas on your third just not your fourth. The gas on your third gives you the ability to purchase upgrades and produce medivacs and mines. If you didn't have the third gas your upgrades would not go smoothly and be delayed.
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On November 22 2013 21:58 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:
I have a question vs Z.
I play in Master League at quite high level (just to place my skill-level).
The question is what I should use all my gas for Lategame. On many maps when I go up vs Zerg and I have four bases, if I saturete all gases I mostly end up floating +4000 Gas.
I mostly have One or Two Reactored Starports producing Medivacs, also 2 Factories producing mines. However this is not enough Gas-units to make me able to spend all the gas I get.
What is the best way to get rid of all this gas? Is it to produce Thors? Tanks? Ravens?
I want to point out that I am always low on Minerals, so in theory I could have a Factory producing a Thor instead of 6 Marines or 3 Marauders. That would give me a unit worth of 300 Minerals, 200 Gas instead of 300 Minerals (for the six marines) and I would actually make use of my Gas.
Do anyone have advices for what is the best gas-dump for TvZ?
As of now I have started just ignoring taking Gas on my third and fourth and using the gas income I get to add Reactors and Tech Labs which feels.. "wrong".
I also wonder how Ghost would work as gas dump. They dont have Stim, can they be worth adding if I realise that I float shitloads of gas? How much stronger is a Ghost compared two 2 Marines. Mostly thinking that Ghost does not have stim and therefore are not as mobile as the Marines.
How do Ghosts do vs Ultras? In TvZ there is no necessary Gas Dump..... If you play standard 4M style banking gas is normal and you really only need to be mining gas out of 3 bases because even with this you will start to bank some gas because of how little gas you use. As you stated before your mineral is low so to spend the gas you have to cut marines or Marauders which these units are more cost efficient then spending it on Tank or Thor in most situations. If the muta count starts getting High Going 1-2 Thors to Zone out Muta from killing mines efficiently is ok like MMA in the Season Finals which is usually best done when you are ahead in bases but the muta count is high. Ravens are only used against BL / Cor / Infestor play otherwise you could get caught with yoru pants down if they go an ultra switch because ravens do little if no damage to ultra....... Personally I think you are looking at this wrong way tbh.... it shouldn't be "Im mining money so where should i be spending it" it should be "why am I mining this and Do I have to or could this supply be spent into army rather than in workers." Especially when you are playing Late game against zerg having a Massive army is way more effective and helpful than having 4k gas right?
Absolutley, regarding your last point. I realise that I dont need to mine all that gas that I am mining and I have actually started to stop taking more than 4-5 Geysers ATM.
However, when realsing that "shit, im Banking 2000 gas" - I just wonder if anyone has ideas of what to make with it.
Of course, in an ideal scenario, those SCVs had mined Minerals instead and I had not mined all those unessesary resources.
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On November 22 2013 20:04 Slydie wrote:
Ravens with bio do vs mutalingbling do sound funny, I dont think I have seen it ever. Avilo does mass ravens with mech/skyterran in every MU thoug, check out his stream...
With bio, I see a lot of pros mix in thors, they cant hurt.
Muta make Ravens inefficient without long range support from Thors so you can't do Bio + Raven unless you wnat muta to snipe your Ravens for nothing  you can do Mech +Raven because of the support you get and its a force out for muta so Zerg has to take different approaches against Mech.
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On November 22 2013 22:13 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 21:58 Pirfiktshon wrote:On November 22 2013 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:
I have a question vs Z.
I play in Master League at quite high level (just to place my skill-level).
The question is what I should use all my gas for Lategame. On many maps when I go up vs Zerg and I have four bases, if I saturete all gases I mostly end up floating +4000 Gas.
I mostly have One or Two Reactored Starports producing Medivacs, also 2 Factories producing mines. However this is not enough Gas-units to make me able to spend all the gas I get.
What is the best way to get rid of all this gas? Is it to produce Thors? Tanks? Ravens?
I want to point out that I am always low on Minerals, so in theory I could have a Factory producing a Thor instead of 6 Marines or 3 Marauders. That would give me a unit worth of 300 Minerals, 200 Gas instead of 300 Minerals (for the six marines) and I would actually make use of my Gas.
Do anyone have advices for what is the best gas-dump for TvZ?
As of now I have started just ignoring taking Gas on my third and fourth and using the gas income I get to add Reactors and Tech Labs which feels.. "wrong".
I also wonder how Ghost would work as gas dump. They dont have Stim, can they be worth adding if I realise that I float shitloads of gas? How much stronger is a Ghost compared two 2 Marines. Mostly thinking that Ghost does not have stim and therefore are not as mobile as the Marines.
How do Ghosts do vs Ultras? In TvZ there is no necessary Gas Dump..... If you play standard 4M style banking gas is normal and you really only need to be mining gas out of 3 bases because even with this you will start to bank some gas because of how little gas you use. As you stated before your mineral is low so to spend the gas you have to cut marines or Marauders which these units are more cost efficient then spending it on Tank or Thor in most situations. If the muta count starts getting High Going 1-2 Thors to Zone out Muta from killing mines efficiently is ok like MMA in the Season Finals which is usually best done when you are ahead in bases but the muta count is high. Ravens are only used against BL / Cor / Infestor play otherwise you could get caught with yoru pants down if they go an ultra switch because ravens do little if no damage to ultra....... Personally I think you are looking at this wrong way tbh.... it shouldn't be "Im mining money so where should i be spending it" it should be "why am I mining this and Do I have to or could this supply be spent into army rather than in workers." Especially when you are playing Late game against zerg having a Massive army is way more effective and helpful than having 4k gas right? Absolutley, regarding your last point. I realise that I dont need to mine all that gas that I am mining and I have actually started to stop taking more than 4-5 Geysers ATM. However, when realsing that "shit, im Banking 2000 gas" - I just wonder if anyone has ideas of what to make with it. Of course, in an ideal scenario, those SCVs had mined Minerals instead and I had not mined all those unessesary resources.
Erect a Statue with it or collect interest on it from the bank because trying to spend it without good cause will just kill you or put you in a bad spot If you get a chance to tech switch at all I mean a Serious chance to tech switch IE you killed one of their bases killed a good chunk of their army and still have a decent chunk of your army left then you can go BC/Raven / Viking its supposedly the strongest composition in the game yet I've never used it LOLOL This is a game winning situation anyway if you continue your course and seal the deal
Edit: I would like to know DWFs comment on the BC/ Raven/Viking to see if he's used it because for me I have never seen the need for it and feel like its not as mobile as it seems seeing how fast Muta can be ( on bigger maps ofcourse IE FROST ALTZERHIM SH)
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Raven's aren't particularly effective against muta's. However they ARE very effective against T3 units, as auto-turrets screw with ultralisks super hard and seeker missile > gglord. Prepping a starport(TL) if you aren't wildly ahead in the T2 battle and getting a corbid reactor running can only help.
Pretty big fan of thors against muta's. Parking them behind your mines can really extend their longevity and effectiveness by preventing muta / overseer packs from just picking them off. Make sure you keep up your mech and tech lab upgrades, just keep a couple of tech labs hotkeyed to your upgrade group.
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Ghost play is good against queen/infestor and tier 3 play. Emp the queens and investors and you basically negate the strongest part of this style of play. Outside of this ghosts as said aren't worth it. 20 + muta balls would mean Thor's as a gas dump, one thing though that can work is when they have no mutas remade in a tech switch. You can make a few banshees and just camp by his army, again if they have mutas this is a terrible idea unless your playing mech in which case banshees can really help out with DPS. They aren't bad vs ultras either. If your super late game with a huge gas bank, go Pf expansions and tech switch to sky terran slowly. While your trading out bio get your upgrades too.
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In TvP does LastShadow 6 rax BO still work?
And is there an difference to the followup in HOTS compared to WOL?
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Hi guys, haven't played since the start of HotS.
Just wondering what the standard opening against each race is now.
Are there any good tutorials out there? Or any recent good matches you guys would recommend me watch for each race.
Is bio still viable TvT?
(The OP seems to have gone past its used by date)
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On November 22 2013 18:40 Glorfindel! wrote:
I have a question vs Z.
I play in Master League at quite high level (just to place my skill-level).
The question is what I should use all my gas for Lategame. On many maps when I go up vs Zerg and I have four bases, if I saturete all gases I mostly end up floating +4000 Gas.
I mostly have One or Two Reactored Starports producing Medivacs, also 2 Factories producing mines. However this is not enough Gas-units to make me able to spend all the gas I get.
What is the best way to get rid of all this gas? Is it to produce Thors? Tanks? Ravens?
I want to point out that I am always low on Minerals, so in theory I could have a Factory producing a Thor instead of 6 Marines or 3 Marauders. That would give me a unit worth of 300 Minerals, 200 Gas instead of 300 Minerals (for the six marines) and I would actually make use of my Gas.
Do anyone have advices for what is the best gas-dump for TvZ?
As of now I have started just ignoring taking Gas on my third and fourth and using the gas income I get to add Reactors and Tech Labs which feels.. "wrong".
I also wonder how Ghost would work as gas dump. They dont have Stim, can they be worth adding if I realise that I float shitloads of gas? How much stronger is a Ghost compared two 2 Marines. Mostly thinking that Ghost does not have stim and therefore are not as mobile as the Marines.
How do Ghosts do vs Ultras?
I personally never have a gas bank in tvz, but I use a slightly different composition than 4M, by transitioning into heavily mech supported bio.
Even if you do go 4M there are very useful things to spend your gas towards, but the problem is you also need minerals, so if your style is 15+ marines per cycle you actually need more scvs mining minerals.
My strategy:
As you max out I'm assuming that your minerals bank before your gas does, because of medevacs, upgrades ect.. this lets you get your CCs for macro OCs and PFs. As soon as I START to bank gas (right around the time I take my fourth) I add 2-3 starports with techlabs - usually at my third cause there is never enough room in my main :/ . Most games the tech labs never really come into play besides getting medevac upgrade (not that great, but cheap) BUT you can make up to 5 vikes or 5 medevacs when you need to remax AND if they go broods you will be able to destroy it instantly.
-Mech upgrades: Since I like getting a high thor count, spending gas bank on expensive mech upgrades makes sense.
-Tech Lab/Marauders: My rax infrastructure is usually 4 rax reactor 4 rax techlab before max (100 gas in marauders per cycle is alot) and only techlabs after max. Usually only need like 3 more. (again I go marauder thor hellbat in lieu of pure marines/WM) *Note: even with 4TL-4R you can still make 12 marines at a time if you really need to.
-Factories: I get three facs on 3 base: 2 TL 1R. and add 2-4 more with TL for thors after I take 4th.
-Medevacs: 3-3 bio plus medevacs are OP as shit obviously . Thorvac good unit vs zerg.
My reasoning for spending gas and minerals on factory/starport units.
-I am usually not good enough to always end the game with marine + WM, especially after the patch. With hellbats getting healed by medevacs, mech upgrades slightly easier to obtain and tanks being so much better in the MU, transitioning into bio mech feels alot stronger than it used to.
-Opening marine tank medevac lets you take an extremly fast third (triple CC on one rax) and be completely safe from roach and baneling all ins. Medevac drops allow you to clear creep and apply some pressure but tanks do limit your pushing options, (unless you are bomber or taeja)
-Thors, marauders and hellbats require significantly less micro than marines, but if you have the apm, their value can be stretched with HB drops, thorvac micro (really underestimated imo) and marauders kiting ultras is just hilarious.
-IMO this composition is stronger in straight up fights as opposed to marine widowmine, and all the units have good if not better synergy with medevacs than marines; HB and Rauders have higher HP than marines, and putting thors in the front line, then picking them up once they've lost like 400 HP is easy to execute, very powerful and a ridiculously cost effective damage sponge.
Down sides to this stlye:
-Not as mobile as 4M and doesn't hit as fast. I almost never push heavily till I am maxed, as opposed to 4M when I go push constantly as soon as my third is running.
-If you loose a thor, marader, marine, hellbat army, It can be hard to hold ling counter attack or a Muta counter attack. But 3 hellbats placed on a ramp or choke can really help you until your bio cycles start to accumilate. Same goes for Thors vs Mutas
-With less marines, situations can arise where after a battle, AA in not sufficient to battle leftover mutas. This means protecting your marines and thors can be very important. I usually keep (or stim and run if caught off-guard) all my marines in the back.
-Same thing can happen with Hellbats: If you leave them infront they can get rolled by banelings and you are left to die to lings. KEEP them mixed in the army and closer to the back if you can. They will naturally move up due to their range, and kiting of other units.
So far in my experience, this army doesn't suffer from upgrade deficits as bio gets 3-3 faster than zerg, and slower mech upgrades are not that important untill you have a high number of mech units. For me these two things happen simultaneously. Mutas also have not been an issue as boosted thorvacs shoo them of better than any other terran unit(strelok really inspired me to do this).
GL and I hope this helped anyone wanting to spend more gas in TvZ more than just saying build ravens 
EDIT: I don't think pure sky switches are that strong in any MU except TvT, especially compared to mech into sky which is often the best option when mech goes late.
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On November 23 2013 04:15 Azrael_Manatheren wrote:
In TvP does LastShadow 6 rax BO still work?
And is there an difference to the followup in HOTS compared to WOL?
The mothership core negates this opening. Photon overcharge will kill the non-stim marines and your tech will be delayed. It used to be my go to build for TvP with a ridiculously high win rate unfortunately =(
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What's the best opening tvt to counter 2 rax 12/15 reapers ?
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EPT
