EPTi fucking hate protoss.
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 193
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
i fucking hate protoss. | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On November 02 2013 21:29 Bodzilla wrote: What is the best 1/1/1 strategy currently to use vs protoss players and the follow ups? i fucking hate protoss. No 1/1/1 strategy is really good. If you don't want to play P the best all in is probably a pre storm 14 min SCV pull. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
i just want the games to end quickly. | ||
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Hadronsbecrazy
United Kingdom551 Posts
 Please help , thanks  | ||
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 02 2013 21:29 Bodzilla wrote: What is the best 1/1/1 strategy currently to use vs protoss players and the follow ups? i fucking hate protoss. If you think about 1-1-1 all-ins like in WoL, they're completely dead. 1-1-1 strategies against Protoss are pressure before or after expand, attacking with Marines/Mines or Marines/Hellions (or a mix) with a Medivac. On November 02 2013 22:30 Bodzilla wrote: what about 2 base mech push's? i just want the games to end quickly. SCV pulls against Colossi openings are your best bet then. Against Templar openings, there is no easy way to end it quickly, you simply have to outplay the Protoss and it usually takes some time before you can finish him off. 2-bases mech all-ins can sometimes work against unprepared Protoss, but they're gimmicky and rely on your opponent misreading and/or reacting incorrectly. | ||
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Dunmer
United Kingdom568 Posts
Edit because the guy bellows seems to misunderstand me. I am talking about a proxy 11/11 style 2rax. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Planetary Nexus is just too good for 2rax Marine/Marauder to kill off in conjunction with a Protoss army. One question of my own, what is the main advantage of a 15 gas reactor over a 12/14 rax? 12/14 rax feels safer against early Stargate play and you can still get your Factory started around 5:30. It does delay the CC to around 4:30 but you get a lot more marines early on to deal with pokes or oracles. Blink Stalkers might be an issue with only Marines but doesn't 15 gas reactor suffer from the same issue? I'm mainly looking for an 8-9 minute timing with preferably 2 Medivacs so I can boost away or into the main if needed since I feel just regular 2rax pressure won't cut it against a Planetary Nexus. One other question, I see a lot of Terran pros open with Reaper and then into Reactor, but doesn't this leave you horribly exposed for a very long time to any counter poke? I fear a Zealot/Stalker/MSC poke would just straight up kill you. It also means you cannot have 6 marines at the time a proxy Oracle shows up, even if you scout the Stargate with said Reaper, so I'm curious why the Reaper opening is used so often. | ||
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Bulugulu
Israel250 Posts
On November 03 2013 03:57 Thezzy wrote: I think any 2rax would require fast Medivacs so you can boost into the main when Photon Overcharge is used on the natural. Planetary Nexus is just too good for 2rax Marine/Marauder to kill off in conjunction with a Protoss army. One question of my own, what is the main advantage of a 15 gas reactor over a 12/14 rax? 12/14 rax feels safer against early Stargate play and you can still get your Factory started around 5:30. It does delay the CC to around 4:30 but you get a lot more marines early on to deal with pokes or oracles. Blink Stalkers might be an issue with only Marines but doesn't 15 gas reactor suffer from the same issue? I'm mainly looking for an 8-9 minute timing with preferably 2 Medivacs so I can boost away or into the main if needed since I feel just regular 2rax pressure won't cut it against a Planetary Nexus. One other question, I see a lot of Terran pros open with Reaper and then into Reactor, but doesn't this leave you horribly exposed for a very long time to any counter poke? I fear a Zealot/Stalker/MSC poke would just straight up kill you. It also means you cannot have 6 marines at the time a proxy Oracle shows up, even if you scout the Stargate with said Reaper, so I'm curious why the Reaper opening is used so often. The one depot CC reaper opening is the best combination of greedy/safe in TvP, it can scout and defend anything and still get a really early CC. Versus an early poke you need to scout it and get a bunker in which case you should be fine with good micro. and versus the fastest proxy oracle you need to get a bunker in your mineral line while getting an engibay. The 12 14 rax opening really delays your cc and doesn't get any tech, the only advantage of this opening is you can surprise your opponent before his natural nexus is up and hopefully kill it or do damage before he has nexus cannon there. Otherwise defensively it's bad because it delays your tech and CC and you can defend with a more economic build anyway. The 15 gas build gives you offensive options in the form of widow mine/hellion drops, and the factory helps alot with defending allins. And the CC is much faster of course. If you want a super fast medivac push go for reaper expand into 2 rax factory where you get the factory before stim. This is a bit risky but should give you that earlier medivac push. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 03 2013 03:57 Thezzy wrote: I think any 2rax would require fast Medivacs so you can boost into the main when Photon Overcharge is used on the natural. Planetary Nexus is just too good for 2rax Marine/Marauder to kill off in conjunction with a Protoss army. One question of my own, what is the main advantage of a 15 gas reactor over a 12/14 rax? 12/14 rax feels safer against early Stargate play and you can still get your Factory started around 5:30. It does delay the CC to around 4:30 but you get a lot more marines early on to deal with pokes or oracles. Blink Stalkers might be an issue with only Marines but doesn't 15 gas reactor suffer from the same issue? You cannot really compare both build orders as they serve different purposes. Gas 15 expand transitions into 1-1-1 with a quick Factory (4'15), something 12/14 cannot do, and generally aims at a Marines/Mines/Medivac or Marines/Hellions/Medivac attack. Gas 15 defends 1-base Blink Stalkers with Marines/Tanks. On November 03 2013 03:57 Thezzy wrote: I'm mainly looking for an 8-9 minute timing with preferably 2 Medivacs so I can boost away or into the main if needed since I feel just regular 2rax pressure won't cut it against a Planetary Nexus. You can play Reaper expand into 2 rax Medivacs, starting your Factory around 6' [5'45 at the earliest] so you have your 2 first Medivacs ready at ~8'40. On November 03 2013 03:57 Thezzy wrote: One other question, I see a lot of Terran pros open with Reaper and then into Reactor, but doesn't this leave you horribly exposed for a very long time to any counter poke? I fear a Zealot/Stalker/MSC poke would just straight up kill you. It also means you cannot have 6 marines at the time a proxy Oracle shows up, even if you scout the Stargate with said Reaper, so I'm curious why the Reaper opening is used so often. Nope, assuming he went gate 13 you can have a Bunker and your first 2 Marines ready in time; the Reaper forces the Zealot to go back to the Stalker, and this delays his attack. If Protoss ignores your Bunker and walks by with everything, you have to pull SCVs, but it's OK as he delays his expand with the unit production. You defend the fastest proxy Oracles with either a quick EB for Turrets or a Bunker near your mineral line to stall until you have 6 Marines and a Mine. It's used so often because it combines fast expand and very good scouting, while having different transitions (1-1-1 pressure, faster Medivacs variants, quick EB). | ||
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wag_
88 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 03 2013 05:29 wag_ wrote: A bit off-topic but TheDwf, you're Downfall, GM terran from France right ? Yes. | ||
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wag_
88 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On November 03 2013 04:39 TheDwf wrote: You cannot really compare both build orders as they serve different purposes. Gas 15 expand transitions into 1-1-1 with a quick Factory (4'15), something 12/14 cannot do, and generally aims at a Marines/Mines/Medivac or Marines/Hellions/Medivac attack. Gas 15 defends 1-base Blink Stalkers with Marines/Tanks. You can play Reaper expand into 2 rax Medivacs, starting your Factory around 6' [5'45 at the earliest] so you have your 2 first Medivacs ready at ~8'40. Nope, assuming he went gate 13 you can have a Bunker and your first 2 Marines ready in time; the Reaper forces the Zealot to go back to the Stalker, and this delays his attack. If Protoss ignores your Bunker and walks by with everything, you have to pull SCVs, but it's OK as he delays his expand with the unit production. You defend the fastest proxy Oracles with either a quick EB for Turrets or a Bunker near your mineral line to stall until you have 6 Marines and a Mine. It's used so often because it combines fast expand and very good scouting, while having different transitions (1-1-1 pressure, faster Medivacs variants, quick EB). Great answer, I'll try a Reaper expand into 2rax Medivac. I didn't see a BO for this anywhere so I do have a few more questions if that's alright: From a quick attempt against the AI it's: 12 Rax 12 gas Reaper Reactor CC Bunker Rax with TL (get stim) Factory Gas #2 Reactor on Fact + Starport Move out when Medivacs pop out (or should I move out earlier and have them boost over?) I think I don't need to SCV scout with 12 reaper but is there any reason I shouldn't use the SCV building the Barracks to scout for proxies? When should I throw down the Bunker? When the Barracks Reactor is finished or straight around 4:00? When do I throw down the 3rd CC? Normally I always build my 3rd in my main when I push out, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea to build a 3rd CC with only 2 Barracks producing units, should I throw down two more Barracks first? When do I add an E-bay (assuming I don't scout early double gas + no expansion) for +1, and do I build two straight away or just get +1 attack and add the second E-bay + Armory later? Lastly, a bit of personal preference is that I always build two Vikings after my first two Medivacs. I get them primarily in case of early Colossus but I've found they're also good at sniping Observers and dealing with Warp Prisms (I also usually build two or three Widow Mines out of my Factory after it makes the Reactor to further guard against Warp Prisms). Unless I specifically scout no Robo or fast Templar tech, is there a reason I shouldn't build them and go straight for four Medivacs? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 03 2013 05:45 wag_ wrote: Hah, I knew it. Too bad we don't hear alot from you on the french scene. I'm taking part in the Francophone Championship, so you can see me there. On November 03 2013 06:49 Thezzy wrote: Great answer, I'll try a Reaper expand into 2rax Medivac. I didn't see a BO for this anywhere so I do have a few more questions if that's alright: From a quick attempt against the AI it's: 12 Rax 12 gas Reaper Reactor CC Bunker Rax with TL (get stim) Factory Gas #2 Reactor on Fact + Starport Move out when Medivacs pop out (or should I move out earlier and have them boost over?) 4'05 second rax, rally SCV building it to gas 5'10 - 15 second gas + lab on rax Stim Factory (can be delayed a bit if you make 1 Marauder to move out on the map) Starport + third gas + Reactor Etc. Check for instance Bogus vs Daisy, Whirlwind, ATC for the build order. If your Reaper confirms passive Protoss play (e. g. MSC expand into robo forge), you can move out on the map with some Marines and a first Marauder to poke and perhaps force a PO. Watch for example Bogus vs MaNa, Newkirk, ATC (search the replay pack on http://acer.taketv.net/). I think I don't need to SCV scout with 12 reaper but is there any reason I shouldn't use the SCV building the Barracks to scout for proxies? You should still SCV scout, otherwise you will run into troubles against some things like proxy gate(s), gate 10, etc. When should I throw down the Bunker? When the Barracks Reactor is finished or straight around 4:00? Just after your second rax if Protoss moves out on the map with his units, feel free to skip it for a while if Protoss stays at home with them. When do I throw down the 3rd CC? Around 9'30 if you go 3 rax third, same as other fast expands. Normally I always build my 3rd in my main when I push out, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea to build a 3rd CC with only 2 Barracks producing units, should I throw down two more Barracks first? You build a third rax around ~8'15. When do I add an E-bay (assuming I don't scout early double gas + no expansion) for +1, and do I build two straight away or just get +1 attack and add the second E-bay + Armory later? You can build it at the same time as the Factory, then second one + Armory generally after third and going up to 5 rax. Lastly, a bit of personal preference is that I always build two Vikings after my first two Medivacs. I get them primarily in case of early Colossus but I've found they're also good at sniping Observers and dealing with Warp Prisms (I also usually build two or three Widow Mines out of my Factory after it makes the Reactor to further guard against Warp Prisms). Unless I specifically scout no Robo or fast Templar tech, is there a reason I shouldn't build them and go straight for four Medivacs? You can go 3 Medivacs + 1 Viking for your two first cycles if you want to be safer against Prism attacks, but 2 Vikings weakens too much your offensive potential (see iaguz's post last page). Ideally you want to get 4 Medivacs first. | ||
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Fhiz
361 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On November 03 2013 07:31 TheDwf wrote: I'm taking part in the Francophone Championship, so you can see me there. 4'05 second rax, rally SCV building it to gas 5'10 - 15 second gas + lab on rax Stim Factory (can be delayed a bit if you make 1 Marauder to move out on the map) Starport + third gas + Reactor Etc. Check for instance Bogus vs Daisy, Whirlwind, ATC for the build order. If your Reaper confirms passive Protoss play (e. g. MSC expand into robo forge), you can move out on the map with some Marines and a first Marauder to poke and perhaps force a PO. Watch for example Bogus vs MaNa, Newkirk, ATC (search the replay pack on http://acer.taketv.net/). You should still SCV scout, otherwise you will run into troubles against some things like proxy gate(s), gate 10, etc. Just after your second rax if Protoss moves out on the map with his units, feel free to skip it for a while if Protoss stays at home with them. Around 9'30 if you go 3 rax third, same as other fast expands. You build a third rax around ~8'15. You can build it at the same time as the Factory, then second one + Armory generally after third and going up to 5 rax. You can go 3 Medivacs + 1 Viking for your two first cycles if you want to be safer against Prism attacks, but 2 Vikings weakens too much your offensive potential (see iaguz's post last page). Ideally you want to get 4 Medivacs first. Thanks! I'll give it a go! :D | ||
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wag_
88 Posts
On November 03 2013 08:23 Fhiz wrote: Is it ever a bad idea to scan to kill an observer? No, it's a good move. Except if you run on 10 scvs after an all-in :p | ||
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surreal1600
United States33 Posts
On November 02 2013 14:24 Fhiz wrote: Also in TvP after you get your first two medivacs is it smart to get two vikings after that? If so do you delay the 10 minute poke we try and do to wait for them? DayNine did a daily about ignoring the starport after the first two medivacs. He shows how Polt only continues with medivacs after building a total of 8 raxes and starting +2. http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-620-polts-tvp-wcs-amazingness/ | ||
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