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On October 31 2013 05:21 Fhiz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 03:50 Bulugulu wrote:On October 31 2013 02:15 Fhiz wrote:On October 30 2013 15:14 Whatson wrote:
IMO one or two is enough, they're mainly for when the muta cloud gets to critical numbers
You'll need a tech-lab for your second factory anyways so you can make a Thor whenever you feel like you're getting overwhelmed, or just make one whenever you can. So i'm confused, in TvZ we reactor helions out to 6 and then get 2 mines then lift that factory and get a tech lab to research the widow mine upgrade, I thought we get a reactor on our second factory for 3x widow mine production, what would be the point in getting another tech lab when going bio mine? You got it wrong, you can either switch to widow mine production continuously after your hellions, or lift your factory to make a reactor and then go widow mines. Or you can make 6 hellions and then use the factory to make a reactor for your barracks and then make another reactor for widow mine production. Either way your first factory will end up making reactored widow-mines and your second will have a techlab for the widow mine upgrade, usually after you started 2/2. Well, I had no idea, thanks! TvP Also i'm wondering I know marauders are good vs stalkers but you know of how in the early game when we have 3 rax up, say youre going cc first after you get your first tech lab what should the other 2 addons be double reactor or 1 reactor 1 tech lab. And marines are good vs zealots right? So im wondering is there any way to scout to determine which addons to get or is the extra marines or is one just 'safer' than the other?
In most situations it's better to go 2 techlab 1 reactor. For a time it was popular to go double reactor but its harder to micro and it's quite bad vs colossus openings which are popular atm..
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
On October 31 2013 06:06 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 05:24 GumBa wrote:
Hi guys dia terran here and just wanted to ask for some tips.
How do you properly engage a lategame toss deathball? Like I snipe there 3rd do damage with drops macro into a strong ghost viking bio ball am up on bases and everything then one engagment and I just straight up lose he just rolls on through warps in like 20 zealots is maxed against and thats it and Im really frustrated.
So I really just wannt so help on beating endgame toss.
Thx Can you post a replay of your late game engagements? Saying "land EMPs, target fire colossus with vikings and kite" is simple but I could go on forever on all the little things terran can do... it's easier to watch what you're doing wrong to help you. I'm also assuming you're meaning on equal upgrades and 200/200; if you're behind in either, look to fix that first.
Well yeah the post was in the height of my frustration. Got any tips on ghost control I always lose the Ghost vs Templar wars.
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how often should you use scan?
i know you use a scan at about 6:45 but are their like certain time on when you should use it?
or do you just use your instincts? haha
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On October 31 2013 06:24 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 05:21 Fhiz wrote:On October 31 2013 03:50 Bulugulu wrote:On October 31 2013 02:15 Fhiz wrote:On October 30 2013 15:14 Whatson wrote:
IMO one or two is enough, they're mainly for when the muta cloud gets to critical numbers
You'll need a tech-lab for your second factory anyways so you can make a Thor whenever you feel like you're getting overwhelmed, or just make one whenever you can. So i'm confused, in TvZ we reactor helions out to 6 and then get 2 mines then lift that factory and get a tech lab to research the widow mine upgrade, I thought we get a reactor on our second factory for 3x widow mine production, what would be the point in getting another tech lab when going bio mine? You got it wrong, you can either switch to widow mine production continuously after your hellions, or lift your factory to make a reactor and then go widow mines. Or you can make 6 hellions and then use the factory to make a reactor for your barracks and then make another reactor for widow mine production. Either way your first factory will end up making reactored widow-mines and your second will have a techlab for the widow mine upgrade, usually after you started 2/2. Well, I had no idea, thanks! TvP Also i'm wondering I know marauders are good vs stalkers but you know of how in the early game when we have 3 rax up, say youre going cc first after you get your first tech lab what should the other 2 addons be double reactor or 1 reactor 1 tech lab. And marines are good vs zealots right? So im wondering is there any way to scout to determine which addons to get or is the extra marines or is one just 'safer' than the other? In most situations it's better to go 2 techlab 1 reactor. For a time it was popular to go double reactor but its harder to micro and it's quite bad vs colossus openings which are popular atm..
Ver wrote:
Not many koreans do the double reactor style, it's really only MKP that will use it consistently. Basically, double tech is more flexible and versatile, while double reactor is better versus very specific openings. Essentially:
Vs Colossus -> double tech lab >>> double reactor. double reactor has a terrible game vs this.
Vs fast templar double reactor > double tech
Vs double forge -> double reactor >> double tech
Marauders are better for dropping and raiding than marines except for killing probes. Marines are more cost efficient and exponentially better in straight up fights if the Protoss doesn't have aoe. Marauders are still useful if you have a lot of room to kite though. So essentially it boils down to what you predict the Protoss will do, so it's kind of a coinflip either way. I double reactor on maps where colossus are trash (i,e taldarim) and double tech on most others unless I know they dont like cool.
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On October 31 2013 10:28 azngamer828 wrote:
how often should you use scan?
i know you use a scan at about 6:45 but are their like certain time on when you should use it?
or do you just use your instincts? haha
Early on in the game, there are specific timings when you should scan your opponent to see what he's doing based on your build. If you open reaper, then your reaper should be able to scout what he's doing but sometimes you need a scan to complete the information.
For example if your reaper goes in and sees the zerg mining past 100 gas but he has speed after that and you have to go back with the reaper, then you scan to see if he's going lair allin or whatever.
If you go CC first TvZ you often have to rely on an early scv scout if it can get in and then his 3rd timing. Then unless you wanna suicide some hellions inside you have to scan to see if he's allining.
In TvT if you open reaper or banshee then you should be able to scout your opponent, and in the case of banshee your build should be solid vs most stuff anyway. You may want to scan a bit later to establish if he's going bio/mech.
In TvP if your reaper is being denied and you see no expansion it's not bad to scan his main 6ish to see what he's going for. Or if he did expand but you can't get in it may be a good idea to scan, or just make a blind turret at your entrance and play more defensively. But basically unless you know exactly what he's doing you can't move out on the map safely.
Another situation is when you're being contained in TvP then you should scan to see if he's expanding so you know when to retake your expansion yourself.
Bottom line is there are many specific timings to scan that are too many to cover here but that you pick up in time as you lose to specific builds.
And in the mid-lategame you want to use scans to snipe observers and pinpoint the position of your enemy, and spot for your tanks.
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A lot of my early game TvZ is focused right now around walling off my base at 6 minutes when I scout gas. However only like 30-40% of my Zerg opponents do some 6 minute ling-speed timing and I have to cut stuff for it. Is there anyway I can scout and prep for this rather than just do this blindly?
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On November 01 2013 02:01 Chaggi wrote:
A lot of my early game TvZ is focused right now around walling off my base at 6 minutes when I scout gas. However only like 30-40% of my Zerg opponents do some 6 minute ling-speed timing and I have to cut stuff for it. Is there anyway I can scout and prep for this rather than just do this blindly?
Not really. If you go for triple OC, you can build your third CC as part of the wall on some of the maps (Akilon, Derelict, Bel'shir, Whirlwind) to save one depot (even two on Bel'shir).
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On November 01 2013 02:22 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2013 02:01 Chaggi wrote:
A lot of my early game TvZ is focused right now around walling off my base at 6 minutes when I scout gas. However only like 30-40% of my Zerg opponents do some 6 minute ling-speed timing and I have to cut stuff for it. Is there anyway I can scout and prep for this rather than just do this blindly? Not really. If you go for triple OC, you can build your third CC as part of the wall on some of the maps (Akilon, Derelict, Bel'shir, Whirlwind) to save one depot (even two on Bel'shir).
Hmmm I think I tried that and died soon after to a roach all in cause I'm pretty bad in figuring out which all in is coming and bunkers are helpful. I guess I can just prebuild some bunkers in that case
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Well I guess a follow up question, do you wall in @ 6 min when you see gas in TvZ? (when opening reapers)
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On November 01 2013 03:18 Chaggi wrote:
Well I guess a follow up question, do you wall in @ 6 min when you see gas in TvZ? (when opening reapers)
Nope, you have no minerals for that, it would kill your build. You're forced to wait at your ramp some time (with your Hellions) before moving out until you have at least one Bunker.
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United States1072 Posts
Hey Downfall do you prefer reaper opening on 2 player maps or CC first in TvZ? I've been messing with CC first and ofcourse there is a few things you have to do to make sure you don't die in the early stage. I've also been messing with a Blue flame hellion attack and using that to go into bio..... What I find its gimmicky much like dts but worse hahaha if you invest heavily into it and you don't get the map control + damage done that you need you will die
Do you ever go BFH if so how much commitment do you make like 13-15 hellions with 3 rax follow up? I mean i've tried a couple things in higher games against Low GM / High Masters it seems to be 50 / 50
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On November 01 2013 05:42 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Hey Downfall do you prefer reaper opening on 2 player maps or CC first in TvZ? I've been messing with CC first and ofcourse there is a few things you have to do to make sure you don't die in the early stage. I've also been messing with a Blue flame hellion attack and using that to go into bio..... What I find its gimmicky much like dts but worse hahaha if you invest heavily into it and you don't get the map control + damage done that you need you will die
Do you ever go BFH if so how much commitment do you make like 13-15 hellions with 3 rax follow up? I mean i've tried a couple things in higher games against Low GM / High Masters it seems to be 50 / 50
I use CC first, I dislike Reaper expands since you have such a late wall at natural.
I don't use 2 fact BFH because of what you mention (too behind if it fails), but I would stop Hellion production when BFH completes (so around 13-15, yes). As a bio transition, I would go third, stim, dual EB, +4 rax as money allows and Starport (if you talk about 2 fact BFH as a timing attack, because some build orders get a quick third then a second fact). You can find an example of such a transition in SuperNova vs SortOf, Whirlwind, Ritmix RSL V. But it really comes down to what happened with the BFH attack.
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ok so my multi tasking is literally terrible, like even for my level. I am still relatively new (silver) to sc2 so not everything is natural to me yet. Usually at the 10 min mark I typically have 95+ ~~ supply. When I go reaper first, try to scout, and pretty much screw everything up I end up with less than 70 less than 60 even. So it is really terrible.. Would you guys recommend I still go reaper first and keep at this and keep training my multi tasking skill (as it is a good skill to have) or just play safely and more conservative? Because I have a better chance at living if I don't scout at all and blindly go for build x even when build y is better vs what my opponent is doing just based on econ, army supply, actually not forgetting upgrades and not remembering to research stim and things like that.. Would you still recommend I go for a reaper first? Even while my multi tasking is trash? I have a really high success rate at blindly going cc first which I know isn't exactly smart but since the all ins and this kind of thing that is likely to kill a cc first don't often work for my opponent because i feel confident against them and I know that if I hold i will have an astronomical econ lead in the game, and if my opponent chooses to macro and maybe go nexus first as well, I smash them typically at my level.
Sorry for the ugly wall of text but I just don't think reaper first is best for me I know a lot of the Koreans do it and it's pretty much standard for T's these days at all levels but on a personal level.. idk what do you guys think?
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On November 01 2013 08:40 Fhiz wrote:
ok so my multi tasking is literally terrible, like even for my level. I am still relatively new (silver) to sc2 so not everything is natural to me yet. Usually at the 10 min mark I typically have 95+ ~~ supply. When I go reaper first, try to scout, and pretty much screw everything up I end up with less than 70 less than 60 even. So it is really terrible.. Would you guys recommend I still go reaper first and keep at this and keep training my multi tasking skill (as it is a good skill to have) or just play safely and more conservative? Because I have a better chance at living if I don't scout at all and blindly go for build x even when build y is better vs what my opponent is doing just based on econ, army supply, actually not forgetting upgrades and not remembering to research stim and things like that.. Would you still recommend I go for a reaper first? Even while my multi tasking is trash? I have a really high success rate at blindly going cc first which I know isn't exactly smart but since the all ins and this kind of thing that is likely to kill a cc first don't often work for my opponent because i feel confident against them and I know that if I hold i will have an astronomical econ lead in the game, and if my opponent chooses to macro and maybe go nexus first as well, I smash them typically at my level.
Sorry for the ugly wall of text but I just don't think reaper first is best for me I know a lot of the Koreans do it and it's pretty much standard for T's these days at all levels but on a personal level.. idk what do you guys think?
I would'nt recommend multitask in lower leagues, but you need to at least try it, so when you'll reach higher leagues you will be able to multitask easily without forgetting scv's, etc.
One single question : Are you able to determine a protoss build when you reaper expand ? Does this reaper saves your life from all-ins when you use it ? If yes, keep doing it, multitask will come over time. If no, stop doing it and consider going 1 Rax Expo (YES, it ain't safe in higher leagues, but 1rax expo is 100% safe in silver, due to opponent fucking up their timings most of the time).
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Some of you guys are experimenting with the CC First into banshee builds shown by innovation/mma on ladder ? I only go CC first on ladder (because I hate reaper expands, no naturall wall-of, everything is delayed and most zergs in ~top8masters will never allow you to run-by so you end up "behind" in some way). Are upgrades delayed by alot ? Is it better than 3CC ?
Oh btw, anyone here has tried transitionning into 2 more rax and pushing out before 10mins (flash build, innovation did it in GSTL this week) ? I feel like upgrades are delayed that it isn't viable at all, but I never really tried it.
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United States1072 Posts
Honestly bro you should do the multitask trainer whether you bomb it or not it odesn't matter just try your best to accomplish the goals and do it once a day and you will quickly see your days getting better and better within a month i would say you will multitask without thinking abou tit
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United States1072 Posts
On November 01 2013 10:12 wag_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2013 08:40 Fhiz wrote:
ok so my multi tasking is literally terrible, like even for my level. I am still relatively new (silver) to sc2 so not everything is natural to me yet. Usually at the 10 min mark I typically have 95+ ~~ supply. When I go reaper first, try to scout, and pretty much screw everything up I end up with less than 70 less than 60 even. So it is really terrible.. Would you guys recommend I still go reaper first and keep at this and keep training my multi tasking skill (as it is a good skill to have) or just play safely and more conservative? Because I have a better chance at living if I don't scout at all and blindly go for build x even when build y is better vs what my opponent is doing just based on econ, army supply, actually not forgetting upgrades and not remembering to research stim and things like that.. Would you still recommend I go for a reaper first? Even while my multi tasking is trash? I have a really high success rate at blindly going cc first which I know isn't exactly smart but since the all ins and this kind of thing that is likely to kill a cc first don't often work for my opponent because i feel confident against them and I know that if I hold i will have an astronomical econ lead in the game, and if my opponent chooses to macro and maybe go nexus first as well, I smash them typically at my level.
Sorry for the ugly wall of text but I just don't think reaper first is best for me I know a lot of the Koreans do it and it's pretty much standard for T's these days at all levels but on a personal level.. idk what do you guys think? I would'nt recommend multitask in lower leagues, but you need to at least try it, so when you'll reach higher leagues you will be able to multitask easily without forgetting scv's, etc. One single question : Are you able to determine a protoss build when you reaper expand ? Does this reaper saves your life from all-ins when you use it ? If yes, keep doing it, multitask will come over time. If no, stop doing it and consider going 1 Rax Expo (YES, it ain't safe in higher leagues, but 1rax expo is 100% safe in silver, due to opponent fucking up their timings most of the time). ----- Some of you guys are experimenting with the CC First into banshee builds shown by innovation/mma on ladder ? I only go CC first on ladder (because I hate reaper expands, no naturall wall-of, everything is delayed and most zergs in ~top8masters will never allow you to run-by so you end up "behind" in some way). Are upgrades delayed by alot ? Is it better than 3CC ? Oh btw, anyone here has tried transitionning into 2 more rax and pushing out before 10mins (flash build, innovation did it in GSTL this week) ? I feel like upgrades are delayed that it isn't viable at all, but I never really tried it.
DWF way better than me so he might disagree. I have done this push with mostly success the main point when doing this push is you have to kill the 3rd and push creep back hard or do some serious eco damage such as killing most queens and ton of drones.... If you don't with that push then you will be massively behind because like you said you are way behind in upgrades... So you have to do some type of damage to make up for that HUGE disadvantage. If zerg defends it pretty much they'll start taking engagements left and right and you will start to get overwhelmed by Muta as muta count soars then its harder to get out of your base because they can mostly win engagements with Ling BLing because of the cost effectiveness vses un-upgraded marine and harass you to death with muta.....
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So the gasless expand (with gas at 15) has been going fairly well (i have been trying in all my match ups) how non viable is this at higher levels? And how much of a higher level? Would you guys recommend going this vs all races (but obviously transitioning into different things for different races) or? Also when does this sort of thing become no longer viable and what takes it's place (a reaper expand i presume) thanks again for all of your input.
Also I know i could probably find this myself (but im about to go to bed so why not ask) anyone have a link to the low level 1 rax expand? Thanks again,
Much love
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Are there any major resources to get me up to date on sc2 "meta"? How about any new training regiments? I played WoL terran until Queen range patch and then kind of fell of the sc2 planet. I'm thinking of getting HotS but I'd like to know what I'm getting into. Just point me in the right direction and I'll be on my way.
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On November 01 2013 15:33 iManny wrote:
Are there any major resources to get me up to date on sc2 "meta"? How about any new training regiments? I played WoL terran until Queen range patch and then kind of fell of the sc2 planet. I'm thinking of getting HotS but I'd like to know what I'm getting into. Just point me in the right direction and I'll be on my way.
It changes every few days/weeks and it's different for every region as well and for each individual league. I don't think there's any resource that'll tell you this is what it is now so the best that you can do is probably go onto some Terran stream's and just watch for a bit. Honestly, I'd just suggest to jump in, the meta doesn't really matter that much.
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EPT
