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On November 01 2013 15:33 iManny wrote:
Are there any major resources to get me up to date on sc2 "meta"? How about any new training regiments? I played WoL terran until Queen range patch and then kind of fell of the sc2 planet. I'm thinking of getting HotS but I'd like to know what I'm getting into. Just point me in the right direction and I'll be on my way.
Watch vods of recent tournaments and watch some pros stream and you will get a fair idea of what's happening.
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On November 01 2013 13:00 Fhiz wrote:
So the gasless expand (with gas at 15) has been going fairly well (i have been trying in all my match ups) how non viable is this at higher levels? And how much of a higher level? Would you guys recommend going this vs all races (but obviously transitioning into different things for different races) or? Also when does this sort of thing become no longer viable and what takes it's place (a reaper expand i presume) thanks again for all of your input.
Also I know i could probably find this myself (but im about to go to bed so why not ask) anyone have a link to the low level 1 rax expand? Thanks again,
Much love
That's not a gasless expand thats more of a late gas. I'd say you will get away with it for awhile in TvZ until mid masters then things will start seeming gloomy LOL In TvT its legit all the way up to pro level which ForGG has shown us. In TvP where things are more build oriented and timings are so picky as you climb the ladder I'd say you aren't going to get very far as some all-ins that you will face will crush the "middle of the road" build you are trying to use. I'm guessing you are going 12 rax 15 gas 19 CC?
So the biggest problem with that in TvP is staying safe in the early game. The reason 12/12 works in TvP at higher levels is that after your first reaper its almost as if you have 2 rax when you finish your reactor pumping out 2 marines. Usually you will have your 2nd rax just finishing up if they go zlot stalker msc rush to try to screw with your build and get some early damage done to get ahead. The reason the 15 gas doesn't work is 1 you don't get a reactor fast enough and your 2nd rax doesn't go down fast enough to deal with any early harassment like this seeing how it will be delayed. This has been in my experience in TvP
I'll leave the TvZ explanation to more experienced players using the 15 gas in tvz cuz i've never tried it but in theory it will put you behind unless you go banshee and you do a split push but there are more optimal ways to going banshee tech. LOL
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So I think part of the reason my multi tasking was so bad is because i wasn't entirely sure how to fully optimize the reaper expand as well as I know and understand my usual builds (where like i said i can get to nearly 100 supply at 10mins). So last night when i was looking over some replays, I noticed this. Which makes sense. So tonight when I get home I think I'm gonna try the reaper expand (taken from a formal build) and see how it goes again.
But my hopes aren't too high for it.. So if I were to do a gasless expand what kind of timings do you guys think I should use in my matchups (wondering about gas) I know when I should be getting down, extra 2 rax and factory and my CC and so on.. But mainly curios as to what you recommend as to openings? Just the standard WoL style of 1rax expand..? ,, Thanks again.
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For TvP reference Jazzmans CC first if you wish to go gasless expand his guide is superb. This is the same for TvZ CC first is best for gasless expands. 1 rax expand is pretty much extinct as far as competitive play in these match ups because you can get so much more ahead economically with this build and still be safe enough in the early game against early pressures if executed properly.
In TvT cc first is a huge risk on 2 player maps as most people open with reaper expand into either 1-1-1 banshees tank marine all-in which is hard to stop seeing how your tanks / Marine tank will be almost non-existent and or low enough that you won't be able to hold it off or they go banshee harass or widow mine drop into expand which as you climb ladder you will find that using cc first in TvT is hard to hold off those builds and make sure they don't do a ton of damage so that you stay ahead economically.
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Do you really think its safe for a silver league player to go cc first? I was referring to what someone else had posted before about 1 rax expo.
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My opinion with the whole Lower league thing is ( which i started in Silver......) If you apply the principal that if a masters can do it then you can .... If you look at this whole game or ANYTHING that has to do with this game such as CC first vses cheese or just playing "better" in general don't think of it as a difficulty range think of it just as playing DIFFERENT than you are now...... which means you just have to get used to playing that different style as opposed to thinking of it as I just have to play better even though i'm not a good player. I just don't agree with this way of thinking because if you think of it as well I can't play as good players do you putting up a mental block that DOESN"T need to be there or is even true.....
Also to be fair you asked about higher level of play if its viable and I believe I answered your question......
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Well my question was pointing towards at around which level should you stop going gasless expand while it might be used at a pro level (apparently) it is not exactly standard. I think we're on two separate pages here. My main issue was controlling a reaper while still macroing. And Wag_ suggested that I should consider just going a 1 rax FE (gasless). So what happened was that I tried it out and it went alright, it was certainly working out better than me royally screwing up my build when going reaper. Then I asked the question above, and that was around what level does this sort of become non-viable because it leaves you kind of defenseless in comparison to some of the reaper expands which leave you with more rax and more production (as far as i know).
I do agree with you that anyone can look at a pro game, or anyone higher level, and try and apply it to their game. But I don't want to be trying to do something that is out my 'skill range' like going cc first vs a 1 base all in, might be defend-able in a pro vs a pro or in a masters vs masters but in lower leagues I find that the size of the army wins. While good micro and good macro can win you games and CC first is setting you up for a good macro game, if my opponent would come into my base with an army supply lead chances are I wont be able to defend it right? So while it might applicable to my game and style I just find that it's hard to defend a lot of all-ins.
So with that being said, most people go reaper expand but while I am having trouble with macroing and controlling him I was looking if there were alternatives wag_ suggested gasless expand and you are suggesting CC first, I mean I went CC for a while and it was practically a coin flip if i was getting all-in'd i lost if i wasn't i'd win..
I think I'm just going to keep trying at the reaper expand, while i might lose at first multi tasking is a skill i need to develop so,, idk cc first from my experiences is a coin flip (maybe im wrong and maybe I can hold off all ins with it I mean practice makes perfect so while people have suggested gasless expand I might just keep practicing both reaper expand and cc first)
Thanks again for your input :> ,,
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Fhiz : You can still reaper expand but just scout what you need to scout. I mean, focus 90% on your build, and 10% on the reaper, don't harass probes, just get the information you need (expo or not, tech buildings such as DTs etc, number of gateway) and go away.
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Alright yeah I'm probably overthinking it.
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On November 02 2013 02:14 Fhiz wrote:
Well my question was pointing towards at around which level should you stop going gasless expand while it might be used at a pro level (apparently) it is not exactly standard. I think we're on two separate pages here. My main issue was controlling a reaper while still macroing. And Wag_ suggested that I should consider just going a 1 rax FE (gasless). So what happened was that I tried it out and it went alright, it was certainly working out better than me royally screwing up my build when going reaper. Then I asked the question above, and that was around what level does this sort of become non-viable because it leaves you kind of defenseless in comparison to some of the reaper expands which leave you with more rax and more production (as far as i know).
I do agree with you that anyone can look at a pro game, or anyone higher level, and try and apply it to their game. But I don't want to be trying to do something that is out my 'skill range' like going cc first vs a 1 base all in, might be defend-able in a pro vs a pro or in a masters vs masters but in lower leagues I find that the size of the army wins. While good micro and good macro can win you games and CC first is setting you up for a good macro game, if my opponent would come into my base with an army supply lead chances are I wont be able to defend it right? So while it might applicable to my game and style I just find that it's hard to defend a lot of all-ins.
So with that being said, most people go reaper expand but while I am having trouble with macroing and controlling him I was looking if there were alternatives wag_ suggested gasless expand and you are suggesting CC first, I mean I went CC for a while and it was practically a coin flip if i was getting all-in'd i lost if i wasn't i'd win..
I think I'm just going to keep trying at the reaper expand, while i might lose at first multi tasking is a skill i need to develop so,, idk cc first from my experiences is a coin flip (maybe im wrong and maybe I can hold off all ins with it I mean practice makes perfect so while people have suggested gasless expand I might just keep practicing both reaper expand and cc first)
Thanks again for your input :> ,,
A pretty safe build that was used early in hots TvP was 15 gas, 2 marines->reactor then factory and widow mines.
It allows you to drop mines at his base which also scouts him and defend everything quite well.
Also you can go 13 gas marine->reaper->reactor->factory which is even safer and was used by polt in early hots.
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okay quick question this time, after we get out rax 2 and 3 what is a good time to be throwing down the 4 and 5 not going cc first? Just when you can afford it? Or?
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On November 02 2013 07:29 Fhiz wrote:
okay quick question this time, after we get out rax 2 and 3 what is a good time to be throwing down the 4 and 5 not going cc first? Just when you can afford it? Or?
Generally you want to get the 3rd CC before raxes 4/5.
So in TvP 3 rax,3 gas->3rd, +2rax
In TvZ assuming you get the early 3rd CC, just add them when you can afford them usually right before the 2nd and 3rd rax finish or just after (or all at the same time if you were busy microing).
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Thanks again every for your input, really appreciate it :X :>
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On November 02 2013 07:45 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 07:29 Fhiz wrote:
okay quick question this time, after we get out rax 2 and 3 what is a good time to be throwing down the 4 and 5 not going cc first? Just when you can afford it? Or? Generally you want to get the 3rd CC before raxes 4/5. So in TvP 3 rax,3 gas->3rd, +2rax In TvZ assuming you get the early 3rd CC, just add them when you can afford them usually right before the 2nd and 3rd rax finish or just after (or all at the same time if you were busy microing).
Actually, the time you get Barracks 4/5 is preference, some players opt to get them before 3rd CC in order to put more pressure on. I think getting them before 3rd CC is more common. (?)
I think a general time is around 8:00-8:30 where you will start floating money, and is where you decide to add on the 2 barracks or take your 3rd.
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If you go CC First you get 3rd CC + 4 & 5 barracks at the same time, which is why I only go CC first in TvP these days.
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Actually I forgot to mention that in TvP the common build atm is 2 racks into factory into 3rd CC into +3rax.
And this is the build I use at the moment.
Also, yes it's possible to pressure with 5 rax before CC but I don't see many pros opting for that right now most going for the earlier 3rd because it's very hard to break the protoss when he's on 2 base.
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Is TvT a reaper FE into mine drop into marine tank still used at all?
also is there some sort of hub that is generally trusted where there are builds? As much as I like to and know the importance of looking at pro games yourself but is there any site that has them nicely organized
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On November 02 2013 11:13 Fhiz wrote:
Is TvT a reaper FE into mine drop into marine tank still used at all?
also is there some sort of hub that is generally trusted where there are builds? As much as I like to and know the importance of looking at pro games yourself but is there any site that has them nicely organized
www.imbabuilds.com
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Also in TvP after you get your first two medivacs is it smart to get two vikings after that? If so do you delay the 10 minute poke we try and do to wait for them?
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The only reasons why you'd want to get 2 vikings straight after the first 2 medivacs is in case your being colossus pushed or you have reason to believe there's a warp prism coming your way, perhaps you're playing someone who likes them. Otherwise get the next 2 medivacs and start applying pressure.
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EPT
