EPTThanks for the help guys
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 16
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A Wild Sosd
Australia421 Posts
Thanks for the help guys | ||
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sirmokona
3 Posts
I'm not a very good player, but I'd like to argue that widowmines are a good opening against everything, up until maybe Diamond (maybe), I made a silly video about it to celebrate my cheap tactics: [Please forgive my attempts at humor] This is basically a widow mine opening, gas first, 1/1/1, with a reactor'd factory always pumping out mines. I think this is very similar to what Taeja tried to do, albeit, I skip the 1 marine and go for reactor ASAP. I don't think you need much/any micro to pull this build off, as I do plenty of mistakes and still win many games. I believe this is very OP against unskilled players, as running away from the mines is not something you immediately learn and Blizz should do something about it. Opening mines doesn't feel risky to me at all, since you can use them to guard the ramp, your mineral line by placing them at the sides in case an oracle/mothership comes, and the few marines that you make are op enough to kill everything else. Only very skilled players will have detection in place for this build, move workers properly. What do you guys think? Could this become a legit build in the future? Or am I just exploiting the fact that everyone is new to HotS and don't know yet how to deal with mines? I saw a couple of people at ESL try similar builds but nobody did it as bad as I did :> Anyway, just thought I'd post this for all those players suffering the late game, you can always end it by the middle game using cheap builds and stuff. I don't recommend ranking up in this way, as you won't be learning the basics of the game, but I put up just in case you feel like having fun. What do you guys think? | ||
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Csong
Canada396 Posts
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13JackaL
United States577 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On March 22 2013 16:31 sirmokona wrote: Hi guys, I'm the captain for Oracle's B-team in the AHGL, and this is my 2nd post in TL. :3 yay. I'm not a very good player, but I'd like to argue that widowmines are a good opening against everything, up until maybe Diamond (maybe), I made a silly video about it to celebrate my cheap tactics: Just warning you, you definately will lose to any 1/1/1 builds in TvT that get a Raven with his push and you'll most certainly lose against Blink obs too. Just because the level of opponents you are facing don't deal with them very well, it doesn't mean they're broken. People might lose one or two games to mines, I know the same thing happened to me in TvT in BW, but they should learn that it's a possibility and just counter you with detection. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On March 22 2013 16:31 sirmokona wrote: Hi guys, I'm the captain for Oracle's B-team in the AHGL, and this is my 2nd post in TL. :3 yay. I'm not a very good player, but I'd like to argue that widowmines are a good opening against everything, up until maybe Diamond (maybe), I made a silly video about it to celebrate my cheap tactics: http://youtu.be/uBax4a2xy1w [Please forgive my attempts at humor] This is basically a widow mine opening, gas first, 1/1/1, with a reactor'd factory always pumping out mines. I think this is very similar to what Taeja tried to do, albeit, I skip the 1 marine and go for reactor ASAP. I don't think you need much/any micro to pull this build off, as I do plenty of mistakes and still win many games. I believe this is very OP against unskilled players, as running away from the mines is not something you immediately learn and Blizz should do something about it. Opening mines doesn't feel risky to me at all, since you can use them to guard the ramp, your mineral line by placing them at the sides in case an oracle/mothership comes, and the few marines that you make are op enough to kill everything else. Only very skilled players will have detection in place for this build, move workers properly. What do you guys think? Could this become a legit build in the future? Or am I just exploiting the fact that everyone is new to HotS and don't know yet how to deal with mines? I saw a couple of people at ESL try similar builds but nobody did it as bad as I did :> Anyway, just thought I'd post this for all those players suffering the late game, you can always end it by the middle game using cheap builds and stuff. I don't recommend ranking up in this way, as you won't be learning the basics of the game, but I put up just in case you feel like having fun. What do you guys think? You can skip the double marines, go 11 gas 13 rax, skip the second depot, throw down a rax @100 gas and reactor asap) Reasoning - the two marines wont stop shit other than as a worker-swatter. You might as well send a worker after the probe yourself preemptively. Lets explore the matchups - TvT - if the opponent opens reapers, this could be painful. Marines or no marines, depending on how he handles it, you'll have a lot of trouble. Best bet is to go directly for double hellions instead of widowmines as those shut down reapers hard. Hellion drops are still awesome....especially when you want to kill workers and the new dropship is amazing. If the opponent opens 1 rax FE and goes for heavy marine early on, you are digging your own grave if he knows how to scan and split. and will just go and kill you. Obviously, this is against stronger opponents (masters at least) TvP - Especially in this matchup, you want the mines to come as early as possible. Send the mines early on out towards his base and snipe the zealot + stalker compo if hes dumb enough to send those out, plus you can scout with mines early on anyways if your reaction is up to scratch. It will be a terrible idea to continuously drop mines, as the initial 4 should be camping his mineral lines for a long enough time to fuck up his econ a lot. You will also be able to scout out his build with the dropship, and transition accordingly. TvZ - 4 mines - 2 for each queen hopefully. Just a queen snipe will kill his early game hard enough for him to do much. Counters are large overseers and spores being morphed - both you can easily see and retreat if you want. Yes, this build is fucking strong. Yes, if you have better micro, itll get you into masters (maybe not the TvT section) Yes, if you know your shit you'll get into korean GM (know one person who did this and made top 10) with this build alone, before they start figuring out how to deal with it...which probably already happened. Its all about the risk and reward - You get early tech options, very cheap and effective unit guaranteed to do damage, and a very, very effective scouting method. Then its all about how fast+good you transition if your opponent doesnt just flat out die from it. EDIT: Went back and checked on the guys match history - He stopped using it completely in TvT. Yeah it fucking fails at TvT ahahahah - Tried it myself, got shut down so damn hard with superb marine control But then looking at the guys recent match history...one match stands out rather funny - He made nothing but widowmines and vikings. At one point of his BO he had ~10 consecutive widowmines....perhaps he slow pushed with mines to the opponents base and sniped the observers with the vikings >_>....and this was kr Top GM - so yeah hes better than you at trolling thats for sure. | ||
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Marathi
298 Posts
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HeyJude
United States157 Posts
I find it amusing you claim you're a "terrible" player. Considering you did your mine drops while building more infrastructure and keeping your minerals fairly low I'd have to disagree with you being "terrible." I'm mid-high diamond myself and rarely do I harass and not build up minerals. Anyway, this build would probably work well at my level until people see it a few times and go early robo. This build wrecks any FE build and I think that's kinda the point of it. Nice counter to FE while 1-basing until late CC. | ||
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xRiotZx
United States105 Posts
 And is it safe to open 2 naked rax reapers (4x) versus Zerg? Seeing how Reapers can out micro every t1 unit except Queens, which they can run from and how would you transition from this if it was effective? | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On March 22 2013 23:37 xRiotZx wrote: How do you kill en masse Ultralisks? Marauders and Tanks don't do the trick anymore. And is it safe to open 2 naked rax reapers (4x) versus Zerg? Seeing how Reapers can out micro every t1 unit except Queens, which they can run from and how would you transition from this if it was effective? well 3 reapers beat a queen, i usually make 4 in tvz (proxy 11rax 11gas) follow up with a CC and quick Hellbats for that speedling counter (2 wm's if they go roach) | ||
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Kisezik
Australia70 Posts
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On March 23 2013 00:19 Kisezik wrote: is there an effective way to deal with widow mines in bio vs mech tvt?, or do u just haveta keep taking shots and scanning, or would making a raven be worth it?. You just have to keep scanning, also have a marine run in front of your army when moving around. I feel that the raven is to slow to keep up with the very mobile bio army, especially now with speed medivacs. | ||
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xRiotZx
United States105 Posts
On March 23 2013 00:19 Kisezik wrote: is there an effective way to deal with widow mines in bio vs mech tvt?, or do u just haveta keep taking shots and scanning, or would making a raven be worth it?. Make 2 hellions, you can use them on a naked fac for convenience if you're going straight bio, this is how I used to scout for my opponents gimmicks in WoL. Once your hellions take a hit and/or die then scan and snipe the mines with Marauders. If you're going straight mech, then you'll have plenty of hells to use as guinea pigs, but in this instance I would say it's probably just worth it to make a Raven, almost all mech units out range mines, so you're going to save so many minerals on scans. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 21 2013 09:38 Kasu wrote: Hmm thanks for that widow mine answer TheDwf, gives me some good insight on the playstyle I should try to use with them too! By the sound of it I was badly overestimating how much of a handicap the cooldown is. Ah yes, I was forgetting this aspect. Of course, on paper a sieged Tank fires 13 times faster than a Widow Mine, but realistically, when Zerg armies charge, most Tanks die after one or two shots when you have small or medium counts. Therefore, even if they can deal more damage, they don't always do, hence why Mines having a 40 seconds cooldown is not always as problematic as it seems… unless each of them fires on a single Zergling. On March 21 2013 10:10 kollin wrote: TheDwf what's your opinion in a drop based style,of mech, similar to what Baby was doing? It only seems stronger with the new medivacs. Didn't work in WoL (Baby/TY just massively outplayed Symbol during their match) and I doubt it will in HotS, especially since Infestors as first Lair tech is currently nearly extinct (which means increased odds of Mutalisks, against which you don't want to try expensive and risky Tanks drops). There are simply too many gas constraints when meching vs Zerg, and Tanks are horribly inefficient in small numbers against Roaches. It could possibly work against someone going pure Swarm hosts (as the first Lair tech), but pure Swarm hosts typically seems like the kind of mistake in the "how to use them" learning process; besides, you would need to make sure you have enough Tanks at home to hold the continuous Locust waves before being able to send some of them to drop. Furthermore, Tank drops are not super threatening, even if you mix Hellbats; Drones can easily flee, and you're left with the simple possibility to snipe tech buildings, which is not enough given the investment. The risk/reward ratio is just too high/too low. The style looks cute and all, but when you remember that 5 Medivacs = 4 Tanks gas-wise while it already takes a long time to get 15+ Tanks to trade efficiently against Roaches-centric armies in the open… Having a single Medivac to harass with BFH or Hellbats drops is a possibility, but many of them doesn't seem doable. I have seen ForGG do this kind of "Mechivac" style in mech mirrors, though. Works better as people don't get Turrets rings in mech mirrors, and you can turn his base against him as Tanks have such a hard time driving among the intricate mess that is your typical Terran base. And recently, it seems people (at least on Europe) tend to skip Vikings in mech mirrors. On March 21 2013 10:50 EZR-Aeron wrote: Sweet, I found a vid on youtube which has flash's fpvod of the replay of him vs life at the hots launch party. was noting timings and supply counts of things. Are their any timings for the eng bays/extra barracks/3rd and 4th gases? Like do you want to have the eng bays and first 3 rax up by X time and then the next 2 rax and port by X time? Can't tell you as I don't play the CC first variant. Even with Reaper expand I don't know, for me the timing is "as money flows". On March 21 2013 10:50 EZR-Aeron wrote: One thing though, TvP, Im finding alot of MSC/stalker aggression whenever I use the 1/1/1 marine/mine drop expand opener commonly seen at MLG and have since gone back to bombers opening cuz even with 2 bunkers Ive had my front wall smashed aside. You say to ditch it since its weak to oracle openings (true) BUT could you not go for a 5:30 eng bay and put 2 turrets into your mineral line to counter this? or delay the first 2 medivacs to get out 2 mines to protect your mineral lines? Yes your push will be slightly later but could this build not be adapted to stargate openers? Sure you can. Then Protoss comes front with Oracles/Stalkers and kills you because you're lacking 6 Marines. The strength of Oracles does not only come from their ability to wipe out your mineral line and/or your Marines with the unadulterated firepower of a Banshee on steroids, it also comes from their ambiguity. If you open gasless expand you play completely blind. One Stalker in front of his natural is all he needs to dispose of any scouting SCV, and moving out Marines on the map, which was already dangerous when lacking intel on WoL, is now completely out of question. Scans are a gamble (can see everything, can see something, can see nothing). Even if you scout a proxy Stargate, what is he doing? 1-base 3g Oracles? 1gS expand with the Stargate proxied? How many Oracles will he make? Where will he go? Mineral line? Front? Production? Even if he expanded, is he then going 5g Oracles? You have no way to know, which means your build has to account for all possibilities. But accounting for all possibilities means one Turret per mineral line, one Turret in front and one Turret by your production facilities (otherwise Oracles can just pick Marines as they move out of the Barracks), plus perhaps a Scan to see if he expanded or not, at which point you're 900+ minerals behind your optimal build order, which means you're massively behind in a macro game, and still dead against an all-in because you will lack troops so badly. Bomber vs MC, Whirlwind, MLG and TheStC vs Sage, Neo Planet S, Fureur events show the glaring holes of gasless expands against Oracle play. In the first game, Bomber loses some Marines to the first Oracle (this simple loss meaning he's already dead against any 1-base all-in), then is caught completely out of position because he cannot know if he has to stay in his base or in front. In the second game, TheStC has 10 Marines by his production facilities to protect them, then MSC comes, casts a Time Warp and enter 3 Oracles for the slaughter. Needless to say, the frontal bust afterwards prevailed without any trouble. Remember the chess motto: the threat is often stronger than the execution. For this reason I think gasless expands will become a relic of the past, a greedy coinflip you hope to get away with. Some threats just define match-ups to such an extent that all builds have to take them into account; even if they're not played, they're always here as a backdrop. In WoL TvP, there was for example 4g. If you didn't bother to confirm an expand after a single gas opening from the Protoss, you had either to get a blind second Bunker or you were coinflipping. In WoL HotS, there is now the threat of an Oracle anytime between 6' (for the closest proxies) and 6'45 in your mineral line. This is a new "major threat," because as evidenced by the First vs Dream series at IEM or Mvp vs MC, Star Station, MLG you just lose if you have nothing at home to defend when the Oracle(s) show(s) up. And "nothing" includes 5 Marines, or more if 2 Oracles come at once. As such, gasless expands have already undergone the simple tweak that is building your EB much earlier, and getting 2 blind Turrets. But this is a "for lack of a better solution," because spending nearly 400 minerals each time you scout dual gas from your opponent—which should quickly become the standard as MSC makes Protoss early game gas-intensive—is obviously suboptimal, and potentially game-ending if your opponent doesn't play Oracles but goes for another all-in, e. g. proxy Immortal (you can't defend this if you spend so much minerals on useless stuff). But the threat is there, and if you don't get those EBs you might run into troubles. Dilemma. The build order thus faces an unsolvable contradiction, and it should fade away in favor of the LG-IM build order or Reaper expands (either with a fact port transition—see for instance Polt vs Creator, Akilon Wastes, IPL Fight Club 48—or a quick stim as described below by Jazzman88). With the LG-IM build order you have less scouting possibilities, but at least you can make 2 Mines, or more if necessary, and quick Vikings to help against Oracles (Mvp vs MC, Newkirk City, MLG). I see no reason to stick with a painful, hazardous scouting and defending process when HotS allows you to handle the new problem as follows: Oracle sees SCVs, Oracle smirks, Oracle activates Pulsar Beam, Oracle gets closer, Mine triggers, Oracle is kaput. Very simple, very satisfactory; even quite hilarious when you imagine the face of the Protoss player after losing a 150/150 bubble plane to a 75/25 unit. On a side note, playing gasless also brings back in the equation all the cheap Gateway pushes / all-ins. You could see how HuK, MC and Sage were all too happy to be able to play 5g against respectively Bogus (Akilon Wastes, MLG), Mvp (Cloud Kingdom, MLG) and TheStC (Newkirk City, Fureur events). Of course you can defend them without Mines, WoL style with Bunkers, SCVs and whatever fetish you hold dear to pray for Protoss to botch his Forcefields. But now compare with Polt vs Creator, Atlas, IPL Fight Club 48 and YoDa vs MC, Daybreak, IEM and see what happens to 5/6g when Widow Mines are there. The Widow Mine shuts down pure Gateway agression on its own and this alone is such a blessing. Nowadays Gateway attacks have to feature at least an Observer or an Oracle, again because of mere threats (defensive Widow Mines or Widow Mines drop). Of course you can still lose to Gateway attacks if you don't have enough to hold, but being able to instantly kill some of the Zealots, or even better the Sentry casting Guardian Shield, is already pure gold. On March 21 2013 10:59 Jazzman88 wrote: It's just safer to have the option of Mines and/or Tanks. If you really want to go as close to 1-rax FE gasless as possible, you go Reaper first, then get a quick stim and the additional Rax off of 1 gas while expanding. The ability of Protoss to go for Oracles or Phoenixes or Blinkstalker or various MSC all-ins means that having the option of Mines and Tanks is so critical to holding dedicated pressure play that you WILL need a Factory at some point, or failing that, a good scout of what's going on. Hence, Reapers or Mines. Bomber's WoL build was great in a metagame where you can easily hold anything that comes pre-6:00 and then only have to worry about delayed Robo all-ins, mass Gateway attacks, and normal play, but in a world where fast and mobile Stargate units have the power to wreck you early, you need some sort of zoning capability, which is just MUCH easier with Factory tech. *Note: I haven't 100% committed to NOT Bomber's build, but I find that the more I play with Mine and other gas openers, the more I feel like my options are open while not sacrificing my economy (in fact, I'm taking some VERY quick thirds due to the gas staggering in the LGIM opener). Speaking as someone who A) wrote the Bomber guide, and B) played it exclusively in TvP for at least 8 months, I encourage you to mostly drop it for now and force yourself to play as much as possible with the new HotS structures, it just helps you get better at this game (which frankly is pretty much a whole new game in spite of the same units being present). This. Trying to stick to old WoL builds is of no use when HotS gives us way better tools to scout and defend new forms of agression. On March 21 2013 12:21 RELAPSE1449 wrote: hello everyone i was wondering something As terran ive noticed that Raven's defence drone are really usefull againts swarm host and tempest. my question is why dont wehave any pro player using them againts those ? PDD blocks Locusts' shots? Interesting, but futile anyway. Blocking shots costs energy, while Locusts are spawned for free, so you're in the losing side of the trade regardless. To deal with Locusts—a siege weapon—you preferably need something free that can't be depleted, so the attack cooldown of your own siege weapon, sieged Tanks, fits perfectly. PDD is good against Tempests, but pro games feature bio play, and neither Ravens nor Tempests are part of typical TvP bio games. On March 21 2013 14:57 zhurai wrote: I don't have the multitasking anymore to do aggression + drops everywhere and somehow've been preferring to mech, which probably is also bad, as such when I did mech in TvZ WoL, I would hellion banshee, and then go back and get thors+tanks+hellions, take my 3rd, and then turtle up till 2/2 when the zergs become really aggressive. Hold off their aggression 2-3 times, get air, and then roll them, but it somehow isn't working too well (I guess because I'm not getting an easy 3rd in HotS?) The map pool is not favourable for mech, but you can roughly stick to the WoL plan (i. e. staying defensive against Lair agression, preparing a push for his Hive transition, and getting a much improved air if you're on a 4+ bases). The rule dictating your production against Lair did not change: Thors as appropriate against Mutalisks (you can even do less of them now thanks to Mines and the improved Raven), Tanks against everything else. On March 21 2013 17:17 Mondeezy wrote: Should I be focusing on a specific build order, or just solid macro and aiming for a unit composition? Been trying to do the reaper fast expand but I always end up losing track of macro in between reaper micro -_- I'm so bad lol. All of that. If Reaper micro is too intensive for your multitask, just use them to scout. On March 22 2013 02:13 uncarlo wrote: Hello, can somebody explain why YoDa's Reaper FE into Widow Mine Drop only works on versus Terran? I started studying and practicing this build yesterday, and I was wondering that. I haven't yet tried it in real games, just been playing vs the AI. And I'm curious as to why it wouldn't work vZ or vP. This is the build It doesn't even work against Terran if your opponent plays right. Don't bother, it's a gimmick, any kind of detection is enough to hold Widow Mines drops with all races. Mvp's EB was way too late in his game against YoDa, with a standard timing he would have held without any problem as you can just trigger the Mine with a unit, then kill it. On March 22 2013 08:18 JamesMantis wrote: Hi Eu Master, how do you deal with the 3 base ling baneling allin wich life smashed flash with at the IEM? consider that you are obviously on 3 base and you are bioing. Mines, Bunkers, wall at natural, spread bio behind with Marauders in front, keep Hellions alive so you can search around your base (otherwise use a Medivac) to see if he's there with mass Zerglings. If your opponent is too lazy to spread his Banelings, get money hits on them with your Mines. Last vs Life, Akilon Wastes, MLG and YoDa vs Lucky, Akilon Wastes, GSTL FXO vs LG-IM. On March 22 2013 11:23 Fake)Plants wrote: I have a quick question about TvT. How are you guys dealing with drops in the mid game? I like to take a quick 3rd going marine-tank-medivac and I keep getting caught out of position when I least expect. It seems like if I drop or they figure out my plans they just abuse the medivac speed and spread me out until I die. Later on in the game, I feel like I have enough turret coverage / sensor towers to deal with them. But should I consider mines before tanks until I have my 3rd up and running? Can be a build problem since the increased mobility is precisely problematic for fast third builds which typically have less units during a certain window to defend. What build are you using? On March 22 2013 12:22 Lennac wrote: Anyway, playing TvP I stopped a pair of attacks and then launched my whole army at him and won the game (yay). Anyway, he said "nice marine cheese" and ragequit I suppose. Anyway, not that it really bothers me, but what is the definition of a marine cheese? I'm not rushing, I thought this was just a typical bio build? Don't worry, what he said makes zero sense. A cheese is a surprise strategy whose viability largely or entirely relies on your opponent not knowing about it. On March 22 2013 16:04 A Wild Sosd wrote: Hey guys! I was just promoted to plat last night! So far I have won one game out of about 6. I've been opening reactor hellion expand in TvZ and reaper expand in TvT and TvP. My TvZ is what is struggling the most, I keep losing to mass baneling and ling bane. I feel like no matter how well I split he just has too much stuff and he usually over runs me with ling bane ultra in the end game. I do drops but they get shut down by speedling as soon as I kill a queen or a few drones. I have been playing bio-tank and bio-mine occasionally. How many mines should I make before I stop when playing bio mine? And what is a good tank count when I do my big push when 2/2 is finishing? Thanks for the help guys Bin Reactor Hellion expand—it's obsolete for 10 months—and play Reaper expand instead. Your expansion will start earlier, so you will have a better economy and thus more troops, and your Hellions will be out in time to deal with any agressive Zergling play from your opponent, with your Reaper being able to scout whatever Zerg is doing. 8 Tanks is good. 10-15 Mines should be enough. On March 22 2013 16:31 sirmokona wrote: This is basically a widow mine opening, gas first, 1/1/1, with a reactor'd factory always pumping out mines. I think this is very similar to what Taeja tried to do, albeit, I skip the 1 marine and go for reactor ASAP. No, Taeja went gas first Marines/Mines/Medivac expand. A gas first Marine/Hellion elevator is not the same thing as a gas first 4 Hellions drop, so the difference stands if you replace Hellions with Mines. On March 22 2013 16:31 sirmokona wrote: I don't think you need much/any micro to pull this build off, as I do plenty of mistakes and still win many games. I believe this is very OP against unskilled players, as running away from the mines is not something you immediately learn and Blizz should do something about it. Everything is OP against unskilled players, precisely because they lack skill to deal with things. I played my first placement match against a Bronze player, and it seems he never noticed my 4 Marines drop killing all his Probes and Nexus. Maybe we should remove the possibility to drop Marines since it's obviously not something you immediately learn to play against? Quick, a patch! This kind of terrible mentality is what gave birth to Lings of Liberty, with many horrible Zerg players refusing to wall against Hellions raids and complaining that they were "OP". Result? Game kaput for 10 months, and Hellions still feasting around Hatcheries in half of the games. Giving bad players new tools can only get you so far when the main problem is precisely that they're bad in the first place. Mines drops were fun while I was climbing back the ladder against Diamonds and so on, but now I don't even bother trying them as they're completely expected and people know how to defend them. On March 22 2013 23:37 xRiotZx wrote: How do you kill en masse Ultralisks? Marauders and Tanks don't do the trick anymore. They do, but as Marines die faster you need even better micro. Check your Marauders to Ultralisks ratio and see if the problem doesn't lie here. On March 22 2013 23:37 xRiotZx wrote: And is it safe to open 2 naked rax reapers (4x) versus Zerg? Not really, because Zerg takes a fast gas, stalls until Metabolic Boost is done and then threatens a Baneling bust. The second rax would come too late (unless you're going 8-8-8), 4 Reapers harass is best done out of a single proxy rax. On March 23 2013 00:19 Kisezik wrote: is there an effective way to deal with widow mines in bio vs mech tvt?, or do u just haveta keep taking shots and scanning, or would making a raven be worth it?. Yes scans, and have a Marine in front of your troops. A Raven is useless if you don't have air control, because his Vikings will just snipe it. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
anyone have any ideas what to do? | ||
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JamesMantis
Italy5 Posts
50% marine 50% marauder 30% marine 70% marauder 70-30 50-50 mines medivac 30-70 mines medivac 70-30 mines medivac 50-50 Hellbats medivac 30-70 Hellbats medivac 70-30 Hellbats medivac and what about medivac? cutting them? 4 of them? 8? Thanks guys maybe a raven full energy for pdds could do the trick. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9342 Posts
As such, gasless expands have already undergone the simple tweak that is building your EB much earlier, and getting 2 blind Turrets. But this is a "for lack of a better solution," because spending nearly 400 minerals each time you scout dual gas from your opponent—which should quickly become the standard as MSC makes Protoss early game gas-intensive—is obviously suboptimal, and potentially game-ending if your opponent doesn't play Oracles but goes for another all-in, e. g. proxy Immortal (you can't defend this if you spend so much minerals on useless stuff). I think the key to that is to not scout at all. Simply play 100% blidnly for the first 8 minuts or so as the information that 2 geysers gives you isn't very valuable. Not scv scouting allows you to mine more minerals with the initial scvs, thus you can build other bunker for "free". This kind of terrible mentality is what gave birth to Lings of Liberty, with many horrible Zerg players refusing to wall against Hellions raids and complaining that they were "OP". Result? Game kaput for 10 months, and Hellions still feasting around Hatcheries in half of the games. Giving bad players new tools can only get you so far when the main problem is precisely that they're bad in the first place. First of all; You rewriting history. Secondly your comparing apple and oranges. When one unit suffers from taking a little skill to use and requires too much skill to play against, then it will be extremely strong in low level games and possible useless in higher levels. The best way too design units is too make them require a somewhat similar amount to use and play against. Widow mines are one my opinion very flawed in that regard, and could use a redesign (which shouldn't be confused with a balance nerf). | ||
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Br00der
Sweden6 Posts
I can kill some drones with my two first reapers but then they allways get a quen and one spine out and its gg. And also they allways drone scout me.. How to do? Please help | ||
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sirmokona
3 Posts
On March 22 2013 20:25 padfoota wrote: You can skip the double marines, go 11 gas 13 rax, skip the second depot, throw down a rax @100 gas and reactor asap) Reasoning - the two marines wont stop shit other than as a worker-swatter. You might as well send a worker after the probe yourself preemptively. Lets explore the matchups - TvT - if the opponent opens reapers, this could be painful. Marines or no marines, depending on how he handles it, you'll have a lot of trouble. Best bet is to go directly for double hellions instead of widowmines as those shut down reapers hard. Hellion drops are still awesome....especially when you want to kill workers and the new dropship is amazing. If the opponent opens 1 rax FE and goes for heavy marine early on, you are digging your own grave if he knows how to scan and split. and will just go and kill you. Obviously, this is against stronger opponents (masters at least) TvP - Especially in this matchup, you want the mines to come as early as possible. Send the mines early on out towards his base and snipe the zealot + stalker compo if hes dumb enough to send those out, plus you can scout with mines early on anyways if your reaction is up to scratch. It will be a terrible idea to continuously drop mines, as the initial 4 should be camping his mineral lines for a long enough time to fuck up his econ a lot. You will also be able to scout out his build with the dropship, and transition accordingly. TvZ - 4 mines - 2 for each queen hopefully. Just a queen snipe will kill his early game hard enough for him to do much. Counters are large overseers and spores being morphed - both you can easily see and retreat if you want. Yes, this build is fucking strong. Yes, if you have better micro, itll get you into masters (maybe not the TvT section) Yes, if you know your shit you'll get into korean GM (know one person who did this and made top 10) with this build alone, before they start figuring out how to deal with it...which probably already happened. Its all about the risk and reward - You get early tech options, very cheap and effective unit guaranteed to do damage, and a very, very effective scouting method. Then its all about how fast+good you transition if your opponent doesnt just flat out die from it. EDIT: Went back and checked on the guys match history - He stopped using it completely in TvT. Yeah it fucking fails at TvT ahahahah - Tried it myself, got shut down so damn hard with superb marine control But then looking at the guys recent match history...one match stands out rather funny - He made nothing but widowmines and vikings. At one point of his BO he had ~10 consecutive widowmines....perhaps he slow pushed with mines to the opponents base and sniped the observers with the vikings >_>....and this was kr Top GM - so yeah hes better than you at trolling thats for sure. Thanks for all of this feedback, lol, I'm finding trolling with mines very fun, it brought my passion for this game, I can stop killing eSports now :3. I guess I'll just work on my micro and for TvT figure out something else. On March 23 2013 01:24 TheDwf wrote: No, Taeja went gas first Marines/Mines/Medivac expand. A gas first Marine/Hellion elevator is not the same thing as a gas first 4 Hellions drop, so the difference stands if you replace Hellions with Mines. This is true, I shouldn't have said that. It just reminded me of it. On March 23 2013 01:24 TheDwf wrote: Everything is OP against unskilled players, precisely because they lack skill to deal with things. I played my first placement match against a Bronze player, and it seems he never noticed my 4 Marines drop killing all his Probes and Nexus. Maybe we should remove the possibility to drop Marines since it's obviously not something you immediately learn to play against? Quick, a patch! This kind of terrible mentality is what gave birth to Lings of Liberty, with many horrible Zerg players refusing to wall against Hellions raids and complaining that they were "OP". Result? Game kaput for 10 months, and Hellions still feasting around Hatcheries in half of the games. Giving bad players new tools can only get you so far when the main problem is precisely that they're bad in the first place. Mines drops were fun while I was climbing back the ladder against Diamonds and so on, but now I don't even bother trying them as they're completely expected and people know how to defend them. I agree, my point wasn't 'nerf the mines', it was more like 'teach them Blizz' by making a challenge based around early drop play or early burrowed/cloaked units. Sorry for coming across as a unit/balance whiner, I'm only exaggerating for fun. What I was trying to say was that I'm consistently beating better players with this gimmick, which probably could be easily alleviated by even a loading screen message that says 'beware of t3h early mines, save a scan or something idk'. That is the kind of change I'd like to see from Blizzard, we should all step up. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On March 23 2013 01:24 TheDwf wrote: The map pool is not favourable for mech, but you can roughly stick to the WoL plan (i. e. staying defensive against Lair agression, preparing a push for his Hive transition, and getting a much improved air if you're on a 4+ bases). The rule dictating your production against Lair did not change: Thors as appropriate against Mutalisks (you can even do less of them now thanks to Mines and the improved Raven), Tanks against everything else. hey thanks for answering. I think I'm gonna go for biomine as I guess I should learn how to do it, and if I still continue to fail at it, I'll probably stop until mech becomes more favorable in the map pool >_< (blizz why so many maps with harder to take 3rds...) I think switching my style from hellion banshee into mech to reaper expo (12/12) and into bio mine was messing me up, as I was trying to adapt to a new opener (and transition from it), probably with a deficit/being behind in the first place (vs hatch first players), and then slowly dying since I read earlier on this thread that hellion banshee is still viable, I think I'm going to go back to gasless expo into bio mine (so I have less variables to deal with.. ><) some more questions - what was the 3OC hellion banshee into biomech (mine) defense vs muta? as I meched I don't really know how mutas were dealt with, but from memory... was it marines rallied to main with the turrets making - build order for hellion banshee 3rd CC (after starport) into bio_mine_? I'm looking at the WoL hellionbanshee into biomech build order and I'm trying to adapt it to HotS (thinking of making 4 hellion 2 mines, but unsure) - should I keep the factory on the reactor making mines, or use it to make new reactors - not sure if I should make the fact+starport swap (as in make the starport on reactor, factory on techlab for upgrades at least). I'm thinking not to and having one of the +4rax also on the starport techlab (and starport reactor) so I can have 2t3r. (although I'm not sure if I should just have tanks just in case he tries to bust me? when I think of it, I guess I don't really need tanks at least that early, and I'm not sure if I'd have an armory that early (so getting a techlab when I don't have an armory for the drilling claws upgrade is useless) maybe if he's on 2 base still, get techlab@factory for tanks just in case of bust, if not, keep reactor on it?, and then get a 2nd factory later as techlab for upgrades?.... | ||
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