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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On March 23 2013 16:52 Cortza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 16:29 FireMonkey wrote:
as a rule of thumb how many production buildings can terran support per base? kind of how protoss can generally support 4 per base. It's about 3 buildings afaik. But when you get to 4+ bases its better to get more than you need because its so hard to remax. Filter recommends 14 rax on 3 base so you do the math.
You can never ever support 14Barracks on 3 Bases. Only time you should get so many is if you are maxed and on 4+ Bases.
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On March 23 2013 17:44 ROOTheognis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 16:52 Cortza wrote:On March 23 2013 16:29 FireMonkey wrote:
as a rule of thumb how many production buildings can terran support per base? kind of how protoss can generally support 4 per base. It's about 3 buildings afaik. But when you get to 4+ bases its better to get more than you need because its so hard to remax. Filter recommends 14 rax on 3 base so you do the math. ??? 14 is kinda ridiculous lol usually in a normal game it's TvP- 8 barracks, 2 starports (if collo obv) TvZ - 7-8 barracks, 2-3 factory, 1 port TvT - 7 barracks, 2 factory, 1 port
My mistake. Apologies to filter, it's actually 9 barracks by 14 minutes. I had the numbers mixed.
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I assume it's 14min because by that point you have 200/200 supply depots? As otherwise I'm pretty sure it should be 8 rax
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Russian Federation36 Posts
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Lately i integrate a reaper fe into my tvz mech build but about some things i'am not sure.
Should I build just 1 reaper or should i go for 2 reapers before my 2nd CC?
and is it worth it to build a bunker that he must pull drones to deal with it? How do you guys handle this? Or just 1 reaper just for scouting?
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You pretty much want to be playing either a gas opener or CC-first. CC-first is viable in TvT and TvZ on specific maps, 11 Rax-11 Gas or 12 Rax-12 Gas is the aggro Reaper standard, and 12 Rax - 15 Gas is the economic middle ground option.
Reason being that 1-Rax gasless FE leaves you vulnerable to any of the new early pressure options, particularly versus Protoss, that you'd better be compensating in a huge lead (hence why CC-first is better).
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Is it me or is Daybreak ridiculously hard to play standard TvP on? Not a lot of space to drop, nat to 3rd is easily accessible from the inside, while from the outside to third you get a rather small corrider. Two watch towers in the middle of the map prevents any "blindness" the terran would normally want the protoss to have, and with one other route to use, protoss can just camp a obs somewhere over there and easily watch.
After both sides reach three base (If the protoss doesnt just collosi all in your ass - stoppable, but hard to recover if he manages to sit near where your nat leads to the third), protoss gets triple aoe up, terran is forced to expand to three base if he wants to mass ghosts anytime soon - leading to even less options for the terran - with both sides sitting on their watch towers, vikings cannot just go snipe a blind protoss, while high templars will just sit near cannons at his 4th. Two alternative routes leads directly to his army sitting on the tower, while the middle route allows him to just move into your 4th while you try to retreat.
Yeah sure I can sit on my ass on the watch tower and wait for him to make a move but I unless hes a complete dumbass I dont see why the protoss shouldnt just start making stargate units and bombard me from long range...
From my point of view, Im either stuck all-inning the protoss (unlikely with the amount of MSC - oracle builds running rampant after MC's showcase), or just flat out banning this map (its really fun on TvT and I have a massive winrate on TvZ.....because of those damn watch towers + rather straight foward attack routes..)
Or maybe I need even better micro....
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On March 23 2013 23:32 padfoota wrote:
Is it me or is Daybreak ridiculously hard to play standard TvP on? Not a lot of space to drop, nat to 3rd is easily accessible from the inside, while from the outside to third you get a rather small corrider. Two watch towers in the middle of the map prevents any "blindness" the terran would normally want the protoss to have, and with one other route to use, protoss can just camp a obs somewhere over there and easily watch.
After both sides reach three base (If the protoss doesnt just collosi all in your ass - stoppable, but hard to recover if he manages to sit near where your nat leads to the third), protoss gets triple aoe up, terran is forced to expand to three base if he wants to mass ghosts anytime soon - leading to even less options for the terran - with both sides sitting on their watch towers, vikings cannot just go snipe a blind protoss, while high templars will just sit near cannons at his 4th. Two alternative routes leads directly to his army sitting on the tower, while the middle route allows him to just move into your 4th while you try to retreat.
Yeah sure I can sit on my ass on the watch tower and wait for him to make a move but I unless hes a complete dumbass I dont see why the protoss shouldnt just start making stargate units and bombard me from long range...
From my point of view, Im either stuck all-inning the protoss (unlikely with the amount of MSC - oracle builds running rampant after MC's showcase), or just flat out banning this map (its really fun on TvT and I have a massive winrate on TvZ.....because of those damn watch towers + rather straight foward attack routes..)
Or maybe I need even better micro....
Replays might help.
Some suggestions:
1. Especially once you hit 3 bases or more, you need to not just drop, but multi-drop. On Daybreak, it should be possible to send enough 2-Medivac hit squads around that if the Protoss tries to either move out or take a fourth, you punish him HARD until he's dedicated multiple Cannons/Stalkers/Templars at each base, which gives you time to get a fourth or even fifth uncontested and flood over to mass Viking/Ghost play (watch the Thorzain MLG Showdowns match from Beta for an idea of what this looks like versus lategame Toss play).
2. Take down the middle rocks and use single Marines/Widow Mines to check the various attack paths. It should be possible to make it so if the Protoss wants to move on you, he sacrifices the defense of at least one base, and Terran typically wins basetrades with Protoss if you don't walk into a few Storms. Plus, you can seize the middle chokes or even his natural and force the Protoss into a bad concave where your Ghosts have free reign over his Templar.
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I just dont get the reaper all in to zerg. I hear tons of ppl saying its really good but i allways lose when i try to do it. 8 reaper, 8rax, 8 gas.
I can kill some drones with my two first reapers but then they allways get a quen and one spine out and its gg. And also they allways drone scout me..
How to do?
Please help
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[QUOTE]On March 24 2013 00:59 Jazzman88 wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 23 2013 23:32 padfoota wrote:
Is it me or is Daybreak ridiculously hard to play standard TvP on? Not a lot of space to drop, nat to 3rd is easily accessible from the inside, while from the outside to third you get a rather small corrider. Two watch towers in the middle of the map prevents any "blindness" the terran would normally want the protoss to have, and with one other route to use, protoss can just camp a obs somewhere over there and easily watch.
After both sides reach three base (If the protoss doesnt just collosi all in your ass - stoppable, but hard to recover if he manages to sit near where your nat leads to the third), protoss gets triple aoe up, terran is forced to expand to three base if he wants to mass ghosts anytime soon - leading to even less options for the terran - with both sides sitting on their watch towers, vikings cannot just go snipe a blind protoss, while high templars will just sit near cannons at his 4th. Two alternative routes leads directly to his army sitting on the tower, while the middle route allows him to just move into your 4th while you try to retreat.
Yeah sure I can sit on my ass on the watch tower and wait for him to make a move but I unless hes a complete dumbass I dont see why the protoss shouldnt just start making stargate units and bombard me from long range...
From my point of view, Im either stuck all-inning the protoss (unlikely with the amount of MSC - oracle builds running rampant after MC's showcase), or just flat out banning this map (its really fun on TvT and I have a massive winrate on TvZ.....because of those damn watch towers + rather straight foward attack routes..)
Or maybe I need even better micro....[/QUOTE]
on daybreak be very specific about where you choose to fight if you cant break him, if he opens colossi and tries to take a third behind it you can often beat him in a straight up fight if you abuse the cliff next to his third.
however if it does go late-late-game, be patient and dont just 1a into his 4th, try to make sure any engagements happen where you are at the top of one of the ramps or at least next to your planetary.
these are things i also need to work on myself, but try and scan and kill as many obs as possible, makes dropping way easier. you could try a big drop in the main exactly as he tries to move out with his maxed aoe army
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Why do high level terrans seem to wall in so much in TvP (and subsequently getting it destroyed by MSC and stalkers)?
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what are some alternative builds that you can do in tvz besides the reaper opener? because i know on some maps the reaper opener isnt as effective as smaller maps. I kno there are some cc first builds where u go 14cc 15rax 16 gas, but wuldnt this be vulnerable vs the 7 roach push when u only have 2 marines in the bunker? how would you stop this?. Also is the 1 rax fe still viable and if you scout 15 hatch 16/16 how should you respond in this situation? is hellion banshee still a viable strategy in hots?
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On March 24 2013 01:24 Mowr wrote:
Why do high level terrans seem to wall in so much in TvP (and subsequently getting it destroyed by MSC and stalkers)?
to help defend against allins, negates zealot damage?
I personally dont have barracks at wall off, therefore i can have a bunker between the two supply depots, i dont think depots can be picked off this way? anyway if you are doing what seems to be the safe opener nowadays a widow mine can make the protoss back-off
On March 24 2013 01:51 Kisezik wrote:
what are some alternative builds that you can do in tvz besides the reaper opener? because i know on some maps the reaper opener isnt as effective as smaller maps. I kno there are some cc first builds where u go 14cc 15rax 16 gas, but wuldnt this be vulnerable vs the 7 roach push when u only have 2 marines in the bunker? how would you stop this?. Also is the 1 rax fe still viable and if you scout 15 hatch 16/16 how should you respond in this situation? is hellion banshee still a viable strategy in hots?
yes very much so hellion banshee is viable. I think towards the end of wol many zergs had realised a big 2 base roach push at a specific time could deal big damage as the banshees just couldnt kill the roaches quick enough....but im pretty sure with widow mines it makes hellion banshee even safer...just remember to put widow mines kind of behind your bunker rather than in front so single units dont trigger them. after my first round of hellions i make a hellion and widow mine, really handy against allins...but if theres no allin widow mines make hellion banshee pressure even stronger as you can 'bait' queens into the mine, then pick them off on low health with hellions.
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When I played a lot of the beta, most tosses in masters would go for robotics play. Now that MC has played in MLG, almost all the mid masters tosses I play go for fast stargate. Is there any way to efficiently deal with this with 1 rax FE? I only win nowadays vs toss when I go for innovations reactor expand into marine + mine drop.
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On March 24 2013 02:24 CapTanObviOs wrote:
When I played a lot of the beta, most tosses in masters would go for robotics play. Now that MC has played in MLG, almost all the mid masters tosses I play go for fast stargate. Is there any way to efficiently deal with this with 1 rax FE? I only win nowadays vs toss when I go for innovations reactor expand into marine + mine drop.
Personally, I only go for 1rax FE if I see a 1gate FE or a nexus first. If there's 2 gasses, I go for 15 gas, reaper, 20 CC, factory and starport for widow-mines and vikings + 2 more rax since stargate plays are really common. Some terrans go blind early E-bay with 2 turrets in the mineral lines off 1rax FE, but I think that's a bad investment since oracles + gateway units will still be able to walk all over your front.
EDIT: TheDwf explains it a lot better middle of page 16. Basically, oracles are really freaking good vs 1rax FE, and there's a much more reliable way of stopping them than investing in early ebay + turrets
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+ Show Spoiler +[QUOTE]On March 24 2013 01:22 ThePianoDentist wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 24 2013 00:59 Jazzman88 wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 23 2013 23:32 padfoota wrote:
Is it me or is Daybreak ridiculously hard to play standard TvP on? Not a lot of space to drop, nat to 3rd is easily accessible from the inside, while from the outside to third you get a rather small corrider. Two watch towers in the middle of the map prevents any "blindness" the terran would normally want the protoss to have, and with one other route to use, protoss can just camp a obs somewhere over there and easily watch.
After both sides reach three base (If the protoss doesnt just collosi all in your ass - stoppable, but hard to recover if he manages to sit near where your nat leads to the third), protoss gets triple aoe up, terran is forced to expand to three base if he wants to mass ghosts anytime soon - leading to even less options for the terran - with both sides sitting on their watch towers, vikings cannot just go snipe a blind protoss, while high templars will just sit near cannons at his 4th. Two alternative routes leads directly to his army sitting on the tower, while the middle route allows him to just move into your 4th while you try to retreat.
Yeah sure I can sit on my ass on the watch tower and wait for him to make a move but I unless hes a complete dumbass I dont see why the protoss shouldnt just start making stargate units and bombard me from long range...
From my point of view, Im either stuck all-inning the protoss (unlikely with the amount of MSC - oracle builds running rampant after MC's showcase), or just flat out banning this map (its really fun on TvT and I have a massive winrate on TvZ.....because of those damn watch towers + rather straight foward attack routes..)
Or maybe I need even better micro....[/QUOTE]
on daybreak be very specific about where you choose to fight if you cant break him, if he opens colossi and tries to take a third behind it you can often beat him in a straight up fight if you abuse the cliff next to his third.
however if it does go late-late-game, be patient and dont just 1a into his 4th, try to make sure any engagements happen where you are at the top of one of the ramps or at least next to your planetary.
these are things i also need to work on myself, but try and scan and kill as many obs as possible, makes dropping way easier. you could try a big drop in the main exactly as he tries to move out with his maxed aoe army
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On March 24 2013 00:59 Jazzman88 wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 23 2013 23:32 padfoota wrote:
Is it me or is Daybreak ridiculously hard to play standard TvP on? Not a lot of space to drop, nat to 3rd is easily accessible from the inside, while from the outside to third you get a rather small corrider. Two watch towers in the middle of the map prevents any "blindness" the terran would normally want the protoss to have, and with one other route to use, protoss can just camp a obs somewhere over there and easily watch.
After both sides reach three base (If the protoss doesnt just collosi all in your ass - stoppable, but hard to recover if he manages to sit near where your nat leads to the third), protoss gets triple aoe up, terran is forced to expand to three base if he wants to mass ghosts anytime soon - leading to even less options for the terran - with both sides sitting on their watch towers, vikings cannot just go snipe a blind protoss, while high templars will just sit near cannons at his 4th. Two alternative routes leads directly to his army sitting on the tower, while the middle route allows him to just move into your 4th while you try to retreat.
Yeah sure I can sit on my ass on the watch tower and wait for him to make a move but I unless hes a complete dumbass I dont see why the protoss shouldnt just start making stargate units and bombard me from long range...
From my point of view, Im either stuck all-inning the protoss (unlikely with the amount of MSC - oracle builds running rampant after MC's showcase), or just flat out banning this map (its really fun on TvT and I have a massive winrate on TvZ.....because of those damn watch towers + rather straight foward attack routes..)
Or maybe I need even better micro....[/QUOTE]
Replays might help.
Some suggestions:
1. Especially once you hit 3 bases or more, you need to not just drop, but multi-drop. On Daybreak, it should be possible to send enough 2-Medivac hit squads around that if the Protoss tries to either move out or take a fourth, you punish him HARD until he's dedicated multiple Cannons/Stalkers/Templars at each base, which gives you time to get a fourth or even fifth uncontested and flood over to mass Viking/Ghost play (watch the Thorzain MLG Showdowns match from Beta for an idea of what this looks like versus lategame Toss play).
2. Take down the middle rocks and use single Marines/Widow Mines to check the various attack paths. It should be possible to make it so if the Protoss wants to move on you, he sacrifices the defense of at least one base, and Terran typically wins basetrades with Protoss if you don't walk into a few Storms. Plus, you can seize the middle chokes or even his natural and force the Protoss into a bad concave where your Ghosts have free reign over his Templar.[/QUOTE]
Thanks guys. Basically my problem is that Im still not aggressive enough .... Im usually a very greedy player (if possible, double expand)
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What's a good BO/general gameplan versus Z, I feel like I'm dying to baneling bust way too often.
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On March 24 2013 05:05 invisible.terran wrote:
What's a good BO/general gameplan versus Z, I feel like I'm dying to baneling bust way too often.
That depends on what you're opening is, what the zerg's economic state is, how confident you are in you're macro, etc. If the zerg plays a 3 base version (like life) the only reliable option is to have a few tanks out with bunkers. If it is the two base variant, 2 mines placed very far forwards will shut it down completely.
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On March 24 2013 05:05 invisible.terran wrote:
What's a good BO/general gameplan versus Z, I feel like I'm dying to baneling bust way too often.
Im going 1 rax fe into 3 rax and I still hold banelings busts - They key is to block off with engbay and other thick buildings, and leave the bunker behind. If you block off with bunkers, they will die once the banelings connect, leaving your marines mostly naked.
Some zergs dont really know how to continue with another game plan and will still continue to try and bust you down - Get marauders at this point at the front. They soak up a shitton of damage from banelings, and by this point your stim ready marines + medevacs should be able to power through the zerg no problem.
Of course, you can simply open hellion banshee (still works, still amazing) if your micro is up to scratch, or widowmines with select fire on them - spam hold/S to prevent them from going off on a single zergling - click ONCE on the baneling crowd.
Or if you want, just go for this - 12rax 15gas (with orbital upgrade), 2 marines, reactor on barracks, factory on 100 gas and start making tanks. Either push out again. Tanks this early WILL hold off everything other than a 14/14 baneling bust - in which case you can blame yourself for being terrible at scouting. To check if hes baneling busting you - Scan the main at about 5:30 - If you dont see a baneling nest, its still good to check if hes mining gas.
3 base variants can only be stopped by tanks, but I havent run into these yet.
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On March 23 2013 02:03 JamesMantis wrote:
Is it been decided what composition is better against Roach Hydra?
50% marine 50% marauder
30% marine 70% marauder
70-30
50-50 mines medivac
30-70 mines medivac
70-30 mines medivac
50-50 Hellbats medivac
30-70 Hellbats medivac
70-30 Hellbats medivac
and what about medivac? cutting them? 4 of them? 8? Thanks guys
maybe a raven full energy for pdds could do the trick.
Marines/Marauders/Tanks/Medivacs. WoL game, but watch Flash vs EffOrt, Ohana, SPL.
On March 23 2013 04:42 zhurai wrote:
- what was the 3OC hellion banshee into biomech (mine) defense vs muta?
as I meched I don't really know how mutas were dealt with, but from memory... was it marines rallied to main with the turrets making
- build order for hellion banshee 3rd CC (after starport) into bio_mine_? I'm looking at the WoL hellionbanshee into biomech build order and I'm trying to adapt it to HotS (thinking of making 4 hellion 2 mines, but unsure)
- should I keep the factory on the reactor making mines, or use it to make new reactors
- not sure if I should make the fact+starport swap (as in make the starport on reactor, factory on techlab for upgrades at least). I'm thinking not to and having one of the +4rax also on the starport techlab (and starport reactor) so I can have 2t3r. (although I'm not sure if I should just have tanks just in case he tries to bust me? when I think of it, I guess I don't really need tanks at least that early, and I'm not sure if I'd have an armory that early (so getting a techlab when I don't have an armory for the drilling claws upgrade is useless)
maybe if he's on 2 base still, get techlab@factory for tanks just in case of bust, if not, keep reactor on it?, and then get a 2nd factory later as techlab for upgrades?....
- Marines and Turrets (one per vulnerable place, i. e. mineral lines, production facilities and possibly wall at natural). Now you can add Mines.
- Check Ver's answer in the Terran Help Me Thread ("What is the best way to transition out of Hellion/Banshee into Marine/tank?"), except you eventually get a Reactor on your Factory instead of a Tech Lab.
- Make at least one new Reactor with the Factory, ideally two.
- You stick with one Tech Lab (Stim → CS), everything else on Reactors. If you want to search Drilling Claws, make a Lab on your second Factory. Mines can deal fine with 3-bases Speedbanes bust, but against 2-base agression Tanks are preferable.
On March 23 2013 08:58 Jay Arell wrote:
Is the 2 rax still viable??
No, it was already bad in WoL and it's now completely horrible because of MSC and/or Oracles.
On March 23 2013 10:22 A Wild Sosd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 08:59 Asha` wrote:
Bomber
(12) rax, (16) cc, 2x rax, (25) gas, rax
c-shields -> 7.30 marine push
3rd CC - fact - stim - double ebay -tanks - naked port
Does anyone know what series/games he did this build? I've been trying it out but I feel like I'm doing something wrong.
Bomber vs Goswser, Star Station, MLG. But it's not a good build.
1 rax expand before second depot is OK in TvZ, dies to Reapers in TvT (even if no proxy), and is very vulnerable to Oracle play in TvP, so:
On March 23 2013 22:45 Jazzman88 wrote:
You pretty much want to be playing either a gas opener or CC-first. CC-first is viable in TvT and TvZ on specific maps, 11 Rax-11 Gas or 12 Rax-12 Gas is the aggro Reaper standard, and 12 Rax - 15 Gas is the economic middle ground option.
Reason being that 1-Rax gasless FE leaves you vulnerable to any of the new early pressure options, particularly versus Protoss, that you'd better be compensating in a huge lead (hence why CC-first is better).
This.
On March 24 2013 01:01 Br00der wrote:
I just dont get the reaper all in to zerg. I hear tons of ppl saying its really good but i allways lose when i try to do it. 8 reaper, 8rax, 8 gas.
It's awful, don't bother.
On March 24 2013 01:24 Mowr wrote:
Why do high level terrans seem to wall in so much in TvP (and subsequently getting it destroyed by MSC and stalkers)?
Well, it helps a lot in some situations. For instance, it counters proxy 1 gate, and it's better against DTs because if you don't have a Scan ready when they come, you can raise the wall to trap them in your natural (assuming you see them). But yes, it's vulnerable to Oracles/Stalkers or even MSC/Stalkers, so you have to commit to wall or no wall before knowing what Protoss will do.
On March 24 2013 02:12 ThePianoDentist wrote:
I personally dont have barracks at wall off, therefore i can have a bunker between the two supply depots, i dont think depots can be picked off this way?
Yes he can, from the right angle the Bunker won't shoot at Stalkers.
On March 24 2013 01:51 Kisezik wrote:
what are some alternative builds that you can do in tvz besides the reaper opener? because i know on some maps the reaper opener isnt as effective as smaller maps. I kno there are some cc first builds where u go 14cc 15rax 16 gas, but wuldnt this be vulnerable vs the 7 roach push when u only have 2 marines in the bunker? how would you stop this?. Also is the 1 rax fe still viable and if you scout 15 hatch 16/16 how should you respond in this situation? is hellion banshee still a viable strategy in hots?
It's OK with the possibility to get Mines. If you scout gas from the Zerg, try the "Last tweak" i. e. get 2 extra Marines after your Reactor is complete (so you have 4 total in Bunker) and one Mine before swapping for Hellions. Last vs Stephano, Daybreak, MLG.
Yes, 1 rax FE and Hellions/Banshees are still viable.
On March 23 2013 01:40 Chaggi wrote:
TvP is confusing me, not sure what to do exactly and what's the proper response. Been going everything from reaper expands to 1 rax expand to 5 rax no gas. So far it defends oracles okay but I just fall behind on tech so bad if he decides not to build any more oracles, and even with scouting and scanning, it's not always positive what I should do
anyone have any ideas what to do?
On March 24 2013 02:24 CapTanObviOs wrote:
When I played a lot of the beta, most tosses in masters would go for robotics play. Now that MC has played in MLG, almost all the mid masters tosses I play go for fast stargate. Is there any way to efficiently deal with this with 1 rax FE? I only win nowadays vs toss when I go for innovations reactor expand into marine + mine drop.
Read this (answer to EZR-Aeron).
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