|
[D] Double Gas Steal PvP
Yes that's right, double gas steal at around 12 supply after their warpgate. It stops all gas production and the only option is to make zealots. Which you can counter with Mama core and later on Oracle.
So you think it's not possible at a pro level to do this? Usually toss these days don't scout at after the first pylon anymore so it's pretty easy to surprise them with this. If the map has two gases lying next to each other you would only send one probe, but in the case of two being separated you would have to bring two to create at the same time.
Build order
10 - pylon and chrono
~12 Steal both of their gases
14 Warpgate - They make two warp gates (or they lose)
15 gas -
Then make a core ASAP and if he kills your gasses then go MsC and rush it to their base. If he rushes you make a mother ship core and rush it to their zealots and use time warp at your ramp with your zealots. Try to rush to an oracle as well. They kill zealots quite fast.
I have done this a variety of times and they usually are like WTF when it happens.
GL HF
What do you guys think?
|
I have encountered that twice thus far. Made proxy 2/3 gate with my scouting probe in both cases and won both games.
When going for that build you need to make sure not to die against mass zealot. MsC is fun and stuff but won't stop those 5 zealots in your mineral line to annihilate your probes.
Chances are that he answer with FFE in which case your oracles shouldn't do too much and you end up being behind in the economy. Your game plan shouldn't end with "I make oracles and win".
Against inexperienced players or in lower leagues it should give you some easy wins though. Most of those players are just so confused that they make random stuff that doesn't make any sense.
|
1gateFE, cannons if necessary. You throw down 200 minerals in the early game to deny him all of his gas? He cuts a probe and a gateway to get another nexus. He's not forced to make two warp gates if scouts.
|
how does this fare if they transition to a forge fast expand?
|
On February 28 2013 12:24 t3tsubo wrote:
how does this fare if they transition to a forge fast expand?
All builds have their flaws. This is just a weird cheese build I thought of when losing to dt's. Forge Fast Expands don't survive void rays and zealots. after 4 void rays cannons die pretty fast.
|
On February 28 2013 11:48 Jukez wrote:
[D] Double Gas Steal PvP
Yes that's right, double gas steal at around 12 supply after their warpgate. It stops all gas production and the only option is to make zealots. Which you can counter with Mama core and later on Oracle.
So you think it's not possible at a pro level to do this? Usually toss these days don't scout at after the first pylon anymore so it's pretty easy to surprise them with this. If the map has two gases lying next to each other you would only send one probe, but in the case of two being separated you would have to bring two to create at the same time.
Build order
10 - pylon and chrono
~12 Steal both of their gases
14 Warpgate - They make two warp gates (or they lose)
15 gas -
Then make a core ASAP and if he kills your gasses then go MsC and rush it to their base. If he rushes you make a mother ship core and rush it to their zealots and use time warp at your ramp with your zealots. Try to rush to an oracle as well. They kill zealots quite fast.
I have done this a variety of times and they usually are like WTF when it happens.
GL HF
What do you guys think?
Double gas steal is nothing new. WBC used it often at MLG Anaheim in 2011, during his run where he defeated Oz in PvP 2-1, and took a game off Socke too. In fact, in his final game at MLG Anaheim, he stole both of Socke's gasses, but then Socke stole both of his (this was on Metalopolis where the gasses are next to each other) and threw out a smiley face! He did win some games with it earlier, stealing gasses and Cannon Rushing.
I tried in a local tournament years ago once too, but ColRyan sniffed it out immediately, taking one of his geysers early. I even brought two Probes and had them timed to steal his gasses at the same time.
Basically when a Probe shows up early in your base it in PvP it often means some kind of cheese and when it runs directly toward your geysers, you select a Probe, and as soon as he takes the first, you take the other one. No problem. If you see two Probes show up, it is definitely a gas steal or Cannon rush. If your opponent gets both gasses and knows how to play, you will lose. But if you know the warning signs, it'll never catch you off guard, and in Masters, you won't be able to get both because everyone has seen it. People are especially wary on maps where the gasses are close to each other.
That said, I like to double gas steal people who 2 Gate me when I get ahead, or people who cannon rush me. It guarantees they can't transition. It is also really effective in 2vs2, where the quality of your opponents (and allies sadly) is often very questionable.
|
Had this done to me twice in a row one day. As stated above, a good reaction to it would be to FFE and possibly even try to sneak in a cannon rush in retaliation.
|
|
|
some guy did this to me in EU Gold yesterday ; i just expanded and won the game handily.
of course there could be flaws in his game , as there are in mine (gold league)
|
On February 28 2013 12:39 Jukez wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2013 12:24 t3tsubo wrote:
how does this fare if they transition to a forge fast expand? All builds have their flaws. This is just a weird cheese build I thought of when losing to dt's. Forge Fast Expands don't survive void rays and zealots. after 4 void rays cannons die pretty fast.
If you have 4 Voidrays after delayed warpgate opening, your opponent with Nexus First into Forge will have plenty of time to produce units.
The idea is nice and it can work, but only when the opponent is inexperienced with this or is much worse than you.
|
I've been doing it on Cloud Kingdom almost every PvP there (can't do it on any other map because you need 2 close gasses), it is really REALLY strong, I even beaten a GM player with it. The normal response I got was either cheese (which you should block if you don't lose your probe) or the probes attacking the gas in order to get a stalker fast enough for the msc. If there is no response and the enemy tries to wait for the Zealot to kill the gas then you will probably win the game, and even if he uses a cannon or his probes to break the gas then you will have a very decent econ advantage, so imo this build is completely imbalanced and maps should try to not have 2 gasses near each other in the main.
EDIT: I think the build of the OP to not be optimal, you can actually go 13 gas steal if you time it right and 13 gateway is important to defend from cheese and zealot pressure. Anyways an Oracle is silly since its so late, you simply want to rush for msc and try to kill as many workers as possible with it while blocking the ramp if the opponent went something like 2gate zealots, unless they have fast cannons or attack with the probes the msc will come way before the stalker is out and you will be able to win the game.
|
On February 28 2013 12:39 Jukez wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2013 12:24 t3tsubo wrote:
how does this fare if they transition to a forge fast expand? All builds have their flaws. This is just a weird cheese build I thought of when losing to dt's. Forge Fast Expands don't survive void rays and zealots. after 4 void rays cannons die pretty fast.
u delay ur entire build by spending 150 minerals on the steal that early on and even more so if u send out 2 probes to do the dirty work. if ur opponent just expands and gets some cannons as defense he will start to outproduce u quite quickly.
The same topic came up in WoL at some point and as soon as u meet ppl who know this cheese u will almost always lose.
|
aside from countering it with a build, anyone above diamond should not get 2 gasses stolen. he would need to send 2 probes at 8,9 to even have a chance of stealing both gasses.
when i have not taken a geyser yet and someone steals one of your gassea, you take the second one as fast as you can, or\and rightclick a probe to your gas, blocking his ability to build.
losing 150 minerals and mining time of early scout also turns this into an allin
|
I did something similar to this back in WOL (masters league) and with using was able to beat GM's with a 75% win ratio. The losses came from missed force fields. PvP was by far my best matchup. I considered writing a guide on it, but decided against it and only used it myself (I'm a selfish bastard). Seeing that WOL is now ending, I'll go ahead and share it with you guys. I've also used it in HOTS, but I haven't yet figured out a way to use it as effectively, and honestly it probably wont ever be as effective with the introduction of MSC.
9 pylon (scout him quickly or this won't work)
11 gate (their is a one second delay, but the idea is to have your gate and core up and running b4 his) CHRONO nexus x2
14 assimilator
(now steal his gas; only take one; if you attempt to take two, your core will be late, and your sentries will not get out in time if he chooses to follow up with a 3-4 gate, which is the most common follow up)
16 assimilator
16 pylon
16 core (remaining chrono on core)
now make 2 sentries and chrono warp gates. If he attacks his assimilator, you know that you aren't in danger of being 3-4 gated immediately. If he skips taking back his gas, you may have to chrono your 2nd sentry. If his build is standard, he will not make it into your base before your 2nd sentry is about to pop, and by the time your 3rd FF runs out, your Warp gates will be finished; build a pylon fairly close to your ramp so that when you warp you can immediately FF; after 5-6 sentries you can FF your ramp for eternity). Everything is timed so perfectly. The trick now is to hit ALL of your forcefields and warp in sentries if he continues to pressure. If you are successful, you will out gas and out tech him, even with all of your sentry production. I prefer following up with a 1 base 2 collossi push (the timing of this push hits right before his late tech or money from his expansion kicks in). If done correctly, you will always be ahead in tech and gas. This strategy always provides you a gas advantage, which is I feel the most important resource in this matchup. Like I said, when I performed this strategy correctly, I never lost. Sometimes I would forgo collossi and go air. Lifting off all his probes while he tried to break his way up my ramp. Ohh the rage that would ensue. I'm gonna miss this build in HOTs, but I do occasionally use a variant of it, which I still haven't quite figured out yet, but I'll have it timed perfectly soon enough.
I should also state, you should immediately throw down your robotics facility if he chose to attack your assimilator in his base followed by robotics bay after your 2nd sentry is out (stop making sentries after 2 only warping them in if he tries to force his way up your ramp). If he chose not to attack your assimilator in his base, add 2 more gates before the robo) Quickly pump out 2 collossi and follow up with 3-4 additional gates. Now go kill him before his economy or tech kicks in.
One other point, if he immediately chose to expand and you missed it, don't wait for 2 collossi to come out; hit him with 1 collossi and gateway units. I always make 1 observer before my collossi to ensure this didn't happen. Sometimes your not able to get in a good scout, so the obs is essential. Obviously, you can tell how long his expo has been there according to his probe count.
|
On March 01 2013 00:46 Obamanation666 wrote:
I did something similar to this back in WOL (masters league) and with using was able to beat GM's with a 75% win ratio. The losses came from missed force fields. PvP was by far my best matchup. I considered writing a guide on it, but decided against it and only used it myself (I'm a selfish bastard). Seeing that WOL is now ending, I'll go ahead and share it with you guys. I've also used it in HOTS, but I haven't yet figured out a way to use it as effectively, and honestly it probably wont ever be as effective with the introduction of MSC.
9 pylon (scout him quickly or this won't work)
11 gate (their is a one second delay, but the idea is to have your gate and core up and running b4 his) CHRONO nexus x2
14 assimilator
(now steal his gas; only take one; if you attempt to take two, your core will be late, and your sentries will not get out in time if he chooses to follow up with a 3-4 gate, which is the most common follow up)
16 assimilator
16 pylon
16 core (remaining chrono on core)
now make 2 sentries and chrono warp gates. If he attacks his assimilator, you know that you aren't in danger of being 3-4 gated immediately. If he skips taking back his gas, you may have to chrono your 2nd sentry. If his build is standard, he will not make it into your base before your 2nd sentry is about to pop, and by the time your 3rd FF runs out, your Warp gates will be finished; build a pylon fairly close to your ramp so that when you warp you can immediately FF; after 5-6 sentries you can FF your ramp for eternity). Everything is timed so perfectly. The trick now is to hit ALL of your forcefields and warp in sentries if he continues to pressure. If you are successful, you will out gas and out tech him, even with all of your sentry production. I prefer following up with a 1 base 2 collossi push (the timing of this push hits right before his late tech or money from his expansion kicks in). If done correctly, you will always be ahead in tech and gas. This strategy always provides you a gas advantage, which is I feel the most important resource in this matchup. Like I said, when I performed this strategy correctly, I never lost. Sometimes I would forgo collossi and go air. Lifting off all his probes while he tried to break his way up my ramp. Ohh the rage that would ensue. I'm gonna miss this build in HOTs, but I do occasionally use a variant of it, which I still haven't quite figured out yet, but I'll have it timed perfectly soon enough.
I should also state, you should immediately throw down your robotics facility if he chose to attack your assimilator in his base followed by robotics bay after your 2nd sentry is out (stop making sentries after 2 only warping them in if he tries to force his way up your ramp). If he chose not to attack your assimilator in his base, add 2 more gates before the robo) Quickly pump out 2 collossi and follow up with 3-4 additional gates. Now go kill him before his economy or tech kicks in.
One other point, if he immediately chose to expand and you missed it, don't wait for 2 collossi to come out; hit him with 1 collossi and gateway units. I always make 1 observer before my collossi to ensure this didn't happen. Sometimes your not able to get in a good scout, so the obs is essential. Obviously, you can tell how long his expo has been there according to his probe count.
what i get from ur post:
1. u were pretty good at WoL
2 .ur build has nothing to do with the OP
apart from that: that's no new or secret build, it is gas steal followed by a 1 base all in. taking into consideration that u r 9 scouting, 11 gating and gas stealing u r taking pretty hard hits to ur economy. So u could be very well off just doing the same all in without gas stealing and u'd probably still have the same win rate.
|
On February 28 2013 21:28 weikor wrote:
aside from countering it with a build, anyone above diamond should not get 2 gasses stolen. he would need to send 2 probes at 8,9 to even have a chance of stealing both gasses.
The thing is that there is absolutely no reason to 9 scout in PvP. There is nothing to see yet that you can't see with a later scout so you're just wasting resources. And you can scout just as effectively later since you really need Stalkers to deny scout Probes, and it takes awhile for the first Stalker to get out.
Thus, as I said before, if you see a Probe show up in your base with the timing of 9 pylon scout or earlier, then prepare for a Cannon rush or have a Probe ready to take one of your gas (especially if your geysers are close to each other) depending on where that Probe is heading. The chances of your opponent cheesing you with a 9 scout or earlier in PvP are very high, and cutting Probes briefly to take an early gas or block a gas with Probe won't set you behind nearly as much as him scouting so early will.
I've never lost to a double gas steal, but that is probably because I know the warning signs and how to block it.
|
what i get from ur post:
1. u were pretty good at WoL
2 .ur build has nothing to do with the OP
apart from that: that's no new or secret build, it is gas steal followed by a 1 base all in. taking into consideration that u r 9 scouting, 11 gating and gas stealing u r taking pretty hard hits to ur economy. So u could be very well off just doing the same all in without gas stealing and u'd probably still have the same win rate.
Well.... i did kinda go off on a tanget. I've just been wanting to share that for a long time, but it does have some relation to the post. It goes into depth to explain the benefit's of gas stealing, so there is some relation.
11 gating DOES NOT hurt your economy in any way that is going to make or break anything, it just ensures that he can't get in your base with a 3-4 gate; although, you do have to begin chronoing on 12 instead of 10, so you could call that giving up maybe 3 seconds of mining time of one probe. Try it if you don't believe me. I understand that if I wasn't taking his gas I WOULD be taking a hard hit to my economy, but I'm NOT losing anything with the 9 scout. I'm trading my minerals for his gas and his future plans; I can assure you, the gas is far more important than the minerals. This forces him into a few options that I can easily read by watching his decisions. He either has to accept that he is now behind in the tech game or take 1 of 2 options that I've already set myself up to win. My opponent gives away his gameplan without realizing it.
By him choosing to attack the assimilator or forgo attacking the assimilator, he gives me the information I need on what to do next to win. 95% of the time I can tell you exactly what he is going to do just by, when he attacks the assimilator, what he attacks it with, and it gives me vision into his base; I can see his buildings if he's made his pylon close to the assimilator, and the most important thing; I can see where he is spending his Chrono and see his probe count.
High Chrono on the nexus and high probe count? Now I know there is a high chance he is going to expand, so I forgo the second collossi and make sure I hit early warp ins.
High Chrono on the core and he forgos attacking the assimilator. I'm gearing up for a lot of ff's on my ramp.
I could go on and on, but I think that's probably enough.
The information you gain is priceless. It changes his gameplans into your gameplan. It denies him the most important resource in this matchup, gas. You cannot convince me that taking his gas is a bad thing. If I wasn't taking his gas, then we would be on equal footing. Why give him a fair fight? Set him behind by taking away his gas.
|
On March 01 2013 03:58 Obamanation666 wrote:Show nested quote +what i get from ur post:
1. u were pretty good at WoL
2 .ur build has nothing to do with the OP
apart from that: that's no new or secret build, it is gas steal followed by a 1 base all in. taking into consideration that u r 9 scouting, 11 gating and gas stealing u r taking pretty hard hits to ur economy. So u could be very well off just doing the same all in without gas stealing and u'd probably still have the same win rate. Well.... i did kinda go off on a tanget. I've just been wanting to share that for a long time, but it does have some relation to the post. It goes into depth to explain the benefit's of gas stealing, so there is some relation. 11 gating DOES NOT hurt your economy in any way that is going to make or break anything, it just ensures that he can't get in your base with a 3-4 gate; although, you do have to begin chronoing on 12 instead of 10, so you could call that giving up maybe 3 seconds of mining time of one probe. Try it if you don't believe me. I understand that if I wasn't taking his gas I WOULD be taking a hard hit to my economy, but I'm NOT losing anything with the 9 scout. I'm trading my minerals for his gas and his future plans; I can assure you, the gas is far more important than the minerals. This forces him into a few options that I can easily read by watching his decisions. He either has to accept that he is now behind in the tech game or take 1 of 2 options that I've already set myself up to win. My opponent gives away his gameplan without realizing it. By him choosing to attack the assimilator or forgo attacking the assimilator, he gives me the information I need on what to do next to win. 95% of the time I can tell you exactly what he is going to do just by, when he attacks the assimilator, what he attacks it with, and it gives me vision into his base; I can see his buildings if he's made his pylon close to the assimilator, and the most important thing; I can see where he is spending his Chrono and see his probe count. High Chrono on the nexus and high probe count? Now I know there is a high chance he is going to expand, so I forgo the second collossi and make sure I hit early warp ins. High Chrono on the core and he forgos attacking the assimilator. I'm gearing up for a lot of ff's on my ramp. I could go on and on, but I think that's probably enough. The information you gain is priceless. It changes his gameplans into your gameplan. It denies him the most important resource in this matchup, gas. You cannot convince me that taking his gas is a bad thing. If I wasn't taking his gas, then we would be on equal footing. Why give him a fair fight? Set him behind by taking away his gas.
It's so funny to see that the format of the ladder (forever bo1) influence the play of everyone so deeply. If you were to ever choose to participate tournaments, you would rapidly be known to like to gas steal and everyone would prevent it (by hold positioning a probe next to the gas).
I'm not raging or calling you noob or anything but i've always thought it funny to see that players like you develop that very specific kind of play that will forever be impossible for pros to use, because it relies so deeply on remaining hidden. And well, you're probably better than most protosses at playing what follow that gas steal because you've played those scenarios more than probably any other protoss.
Personaly, i'll never go on with such gimicks because once you're known to do things like that, they're easily countered (that is, if your opponent know u'll do it before game start), and then you're likely to be completely lost because you dont have that much practice of a standard game. So I dont like the idea of my play relying on something that frail and fragile and prefer to think of myself as an overall solid player, macro-passive kind of player (i ended up having GM level macro with top master ladder rank because i always lacked proper scouting timings and any willingness to be agressive, but that's another story).
May I ask you if you still win at least 50% of your pvp if you meet the same dude twice in a row and he prevents gas steal?
|
@ Obamanation666
well, yes u r stealing a gas and the OP is about stealing both gases even considering pulling 2 workers doing so, the implications for the rest of the game are totally different but nvm.
I see ur point in narrowing down the options ur opponent has, however, high lvl play shows, that 1 base colossus can be held by a 1 gate fe ( the 1 colossus no range with 4 gates variant making it a lot harder to hold, yet still manageable)
Imho, if those builds collide it comes down almost purely to execution to decide who will be victorious.
If ur opponent does not attack ur stolen geyser and instead expands while poking with his units u will not have any scouting info apart from him not doing a tech build (ie, if he doesn t plant his cc next to ur geyser...but why should he). instead u could face: a 3/4 gate or an expansion play, so if u don't get a lucky probe scout in u will be forced to get those defensive sentries marginalising ur gas advantage .
All in all, your build gives u certain information yet I just can't see how the build in itself gives u a significant advantage over an skilled opponent who knows his options. I guess ur all-in would probably have won u the game anyways due to better execution.
|
On March 01 2013 04:50 tar wrote:
@ Obamanation666
well, yes u r stealing a gas and the OP is about stealing both gases even considering pulling 2 workers doing so, the implications for the rest of the game are totally different but nvm.
I see ur point in narrowing down the options ur opponent has, however, high lvl play shows, that 1 base colossus can be held by a 1 gate fe ( the 1 colossus no range with 4 gates variant making it a lot harder to hold, yet still manageable)
Imho, if those builds collide it comes down almost purely to execution to decide who will be victorious.
If ur opponent does not attack ur stolen geyser and instead expands while poking with his units u will not have any scouting info apart from him not doing a tech build (ie, if he doesn t plant his cc next to ur geyser...but why should he). instead u could face: a 3/4 gate or an expansion play, so if u don't get a lucky probe scout in u will be forced to get those defensive sentries marginalising ur gas advantage .
All in all, your build gives u certain information yet I just can't see how the build in itself gives u a significant advantage over an skilled opponent who knows his options. I guess ur all-in would probably have won u the game anyways due to better execution.
He explained that he has more gas than his opponent no matter what his opponent does. You cant make sure of that without gas steal, and i guess it's important since you wont counter collossus with zealots and canons are you? You'll need to match his gas to kill his collossus and you cant do that since he gas stole you. That's the point of the build.
|
It was one of the first things I tested out in HotS after the mothership core speed change. I even wrote down all of the probe travel times on maps from nexus to nexus to have it be precise. That said... it's dumb. It's bronze league, etc, etc. It will win games at a low level, but that's about it. I'm on a 40 or so game win streak (unranked). There's much better builds. Ones that aren't auto loss against cheese, that still give easy wins.
Personally, I hate facing the cannon rush, even though no one does it anymore. If you want to be real non baller like, do that.
Edit: It's been so long since I've done it, but I did test it out thoroughly. I think everyone at a higher level would just take probes off mining and attack an assimilator. With a rallied zeaot to finish the assimilator off, you just don't end up ahead. You had to take 2 probes off mining at such an early stage, then take their geysers before taking yours. You just end up with increased risk with no real gain against any competent counters. In short, if someone does this strat to you, take a lot of probes and kill off an assimilator, to be able to get a stalker out in time. Just expo asap and turn macro adv into easy win.
|
On March 01 2013 05:00 playa wrote:
It was one of the first things I tested out in HotS after the mothership core speed change. I even wrote down all of the probe travel times on maps from nexus to nexus to have it be precise. That said... it's dumb. It's bronze league, etc, etc. It will win games at a low level, but that's about it. I'm on a 40 or so game win streak (unranked). There's much better builds. Ones that aren't auto loss against cheese, that still give easy wins.
Personally, I hate facing the cannon rush, even though no one does it anymore. If you want to be real non baller like, do that.
Edit: It's been so long since I've done it, but I did test it out thoroughly. I think everyone at a higher level would just take probes off mining and attack an assimilator. With a rallied zeaot to finish the assimilator off, you just don't end up ahead. You had to take 2 probes off mining at such an early stage, then take their geysers before taking yours. You just end up with increased risk with no real gain against any competent counters. In short, if someone does this strat to you, take a lot of probes and kill off an assimilator, to be able to get a stalker out in time. Just expo asap and turn macro adv into easy win.
As I won a GM player with a 2gas steal I would beg to differ that this is a bronze league tactic, I would give the replay for proof but the beta is over sadly. The fact is, killing the gas with probes costs so much it gives a big advantage to the gas thief to make up for the later gate and the 150 minerals wasted.
|
@Natalya
LoL... what the hell... no I don't use this every game, and no my win rate isn't over 75 percent with all of my strategies. If that were the case, don't you think I would be at MLG? I figured this strategy out after they nerfed the 4 gate; as I was tired of 4 gating every single game, so I came up with this in response to the 4 gate, but quickly discovered it could put me ahead of almost any standard build when executed correctly, so I did use it for a season to perfect it. This is only one of many strategies that I have, I typically used this strategy on 2 player maps when I felt that my opponent was much better than me. Im not a pro gamer and have other obligations like work, college, and women. I will say though; I find it pretty intriguing when I'm able to compete with people who have over 200,000 hours of play time. In no way would I recommend this be your only strat.
Yes, I have used this same strategy on people that knew it was coming and still won; although, I did change from collossi play into stargate phoenix play and vice versa to keep them guessing.
Come to think of it.. this definitely tends to work more than once. Typically the first game they will try to all in me. When that fails, they think, I just need to expand. When that fails, they're like WTF. Then you start seeing them take 2 gases by like the 4 min mark (and yes this is in masters), so this strat, if nothing else, plays with peoples minds and emotions. If they get really frustrated, you can count on a big flame and an attempt at cannons in your mineral line, which I've become pretty good at defending since I 9 scout.
|
On March 01 2013 05:20 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 05:00 playa wrote:
It was one of the first things I tested out in HotS after the mothership core speed change. I even wrote down all of the probe travel times on maps from nexus to nexus to have it be precise. That said... it's dumb. It's bronze league, etc, etc. It will win games at a low level, but that's about it. I'm on a 40 or so game win streak (unranked). There's much better builds. Ones that aren't auto loss against cheese, that still give easy wins.
Personally, I hate facing the cannon rush, even though no one does it anymore. If you want to be real non baller like, do that.
Edit: It's been so long since I've done it, but I did test it out thoroughly. I think everyone at a higher level would just take probes off mining and attack an assimilator. With a rallied zeaot to finish the assimilator off, you just don't end up ahead. You had to take 2 probes off mining at such an early stage, then take their geysers before taking yours. You just end up with increased risk with no real gain against any competent counters. In short, if someone does this strat to you, take a lot of probes and kill off an assimilator, to be able to get a stalker out in time. Just expo asap and turn macro adv into easy win. As I won a GM player with a 2gas steal I would beg to differ that this is a bronze league tactic, I would give the replay for proof but the beta is over sadly. The fact is, killing the gas with probes costs so much it gives a big advantage to the gas thief to make up for the later gate and the 150 minerals wasted.
Everyone can lose to something the first time they encounter it, but you should most definitely lose the majority of your games against anyone masters or above. Some maps are kinder than others. For example, on cloud kingdom, you only need to send 1 probe to do the strat. But on other maps, it's 2 probes, and sometimes the travel distance is over a minute. Your eco ends up being trash. They can afford to take probes to attack the geyser. It's no big deal. As long as the probes deal some damage to the assimilator before the zealot finishes it off, it shouldn't be a big deal.
While you have to be worried about how many zealots they are making and be defensive in nature, they can just expo asap. There's a huge burden on you to not just kill probes, but a lot of them. It's a strategy that depends on way too many if's and positive happenings. You would be better off just doing an easy proxy oracle build. Hey, I beat pros with that, and I still think it's a bad strat all things considered.
|
On March 01 2013 05:28 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 05:20 moskonia wrote:On March 01 2013 05:00 playa wrote:
It was one of the first things I tested out in HotS after the mothership core speed change. I even wrote down all of the probe travel times on maps from nexus to nexus to have it be precise. That said... it's dumb. It's bronze league, etc, etc. It will win games at a low level, but that's about it. I'm on a 40 or so game win streak (unranked). There's much better builds. Ones that aren't auto loss against cheese, that still give easy wins.
Personally, I hate facing the cannon rush, even though no one does it anymore. If you want to be real non baller like, do that.
Edit: It's been so long since I've done it, but I did test it out thoroughly. I think everyone at a higher level would just take probes off mining and attack an assimilator. With a rallied zeaot to finish the assimilator off, you just don't end up ahead. You had to take 2 probes off mining at such an early stage, then take their geysers before taking yours. You just end up with increased risk with no real gain against any competent counters. In short, if someone does this strat to you, take a lot of probes and kill off an assimilator, to be able to get a stalker out in time. Just expo asap and turn macro adv into easy win. As I won a GM player with a 2gas steal I would beg to differ that this is a bronze league tactic, I would give the replay for proof but the beta is over sadly. The fact is, killing the gas with probes costs so much it gives a big advantage to the gas thief to make up for the later gate and the 150 minerals wasted. Everyone can lose to something the first time they encounter it, but you should most definitely lose the majority of your games against anyone masters or above. Some maps are kinder than others. For example, on cloud kingdom, you only need to send 1 probe to do the strat. But on other maps, it's 2 probes, and sometimes the travel distance is over a minute. Your eco ends up being trash. They can afford to take probes to attack the geyser. It's no big deal. As long as the probes deal some damage to the assimilator before the zealot finishes it off, it shouldn't be a big deal. While you have to be worried about how many zealots they are making and be defensive in nature, they can just expo asap. There's a huge burden on you to not just kill probes, but a lot of them. It's a strategy that depends on way too many if's and positive happenings. You would be better off just doing an easy proxy oracle build. Hey, I beat pros with that, and I still think it's a bad strat all things considered.
While I agree with you that a player suspecting the trick will not be biten, that on maps where you need two probes it may not be so great and that even then it may not be a very big deal if the opponent knows how to react, I think you forget one thing: the scouting info. Seeing as the first stalker will be very very late, you have full scouting info on the guy, you'll see if he expos, if he FFE and where are the cannons, if he does nothing (meaning proxy gates). You are not forced to play defensively at all and can on the contrary be very proactive.
On maps with two close geysers, even some pros could pull it off once in a while against an opponent known to be easily thrown off balance.
|
On March 01 2013 04:58 Natalya wrote:
He explained that he has more gas than his opponent no matter what his opponent does. You cant make sure of that without gas steal, and i guess it's important since you wont counter collossus with zealots and canons are you? You'll need to match his gas to kill his collossus and you cant do that since he gas stole you. That's the point of the build.
yes I understand what he wants to achieve, yet my point is that it is not that much of an advantage if the opponent goes 1 gate fe. in addition, there is still the option to go kill the stolen assimilator and then he will only have the information that there won't be a very early poke and a rather small gas advantage. So it all just comes down to a strong 1 base all-in on his side.
On March 01 2013 05:20 moskonia wrote:
As I won a GM player with a 2gas steal I would beg to differ that this is a bronze league tactic, I would give the replay for proof but the beta is over sadly. The fact is, killing the gas with probes costs so much it gives a big advantage to the gas thief to make up for the later gate and the 150 minerals wasted.
alright, the beta isn't over yet and who said anything about killing the assimilator with probes?
|
On March 01 2013 06:31 ant-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 05:28 playa wrote:On March 01 2013 05:20 moskonia wrote:On March 01 2013 05:00 playa wrote:
It was one of the first things I tested out in HotS after the mothership core speed change. I even wrote down all of the probe travel times on maps from nexus to nexus to have it be precise. That said... it's dumb. It's bronze league, etc, etc. It will win games at a low level, but that's about it. I'm on a 40 or so game win streak (unranked). There's much better builds. Ones that aren't auto loss against cheese, that still give easy wins.
Personally, I hate facing the cannon rush, even though no one does it anymore. If you want to be real non baller like, do that.
Edit: It's been so long since I've done it, but I did test it out thoroughly. I think everyone at a higher level would just take probes off mining and attack an assimilator. With a rallied zeaot to finish the assimilator off, you just don't end up ahead. You had to take 2 probes off mining at such an early stage, then take their geysers before taking yours. You just end up with increased risk with no real gain against any competent counters. In short, if someone does this strat to you, take a lot of probes and kill off an assimilator, to be able to get a stalker out in time. Just expo asap and turn macro adv into easy win. As I won a GM player with a 2gas steal I would beg to differ that this is a bronze league tactic, I would give the replay for proof but the beta is over sadly. The fact is, killing the gas with probes costs so much it gives a big advantage to the gas thief to make up for the later gate and the 150 minerals wasted. Everyone can lose to something the first time they encounter it, but you should most definitely lose the majority of your games against anyone masters or above. Some maps are kinder than others. For example, on cloud kingdom, you only need to send 1 probe to do the strat. But on other maps, it's 2 probes, and sometimes the travel distance is over a minute. Your eco ends up being trash. They can afford to take probes to attack the geyser. It's no big deal. As long as the probes deal some damage to the assimilator before the zealot finishes it off, it shouldn't be a big deal. While you have to be worried about how many zealots they are making and be defensive in nature, they can just expo asap. There's a huge burden on you to not just kill probes, but a lot of them. It's a strategy that depends on way too many if's and positive happenings. You would be better off just doing an easy proxy oracle build. Hey, I beat pros with that, and I still think it's a bad strat all things considered. While I agree with you that a player suspecting the trick will not be biten, that on maps where you need two probes it may not be so great and that even then it may not be a very big deal if the opponent knows how to react, I think you forget one thing: the scouting info. Seeing as the first stalker will be very very late, you have full scouting info on the guy, you'll see if he expos, if he FFE and where are the cannons, if he does nothing (meaning proxy gates). You are not forced to play defensively at all and can on the contrary be very proactive. On maps with two close geysers, even some pros could pull it off once in a while against an opponent known to be easily thrown off balance.
I feel like I gave up on that strategy for good reason. Yeah, it is a lot better on maps where the geysers are stacked. But, even then, what do you do if they attempt to simply take your geysers? Going gas before gate doesn't seem like an option, as that just leaves you open to zealot harass. You probably both just 1 gate expo. The main thing going for the strategy is simply the oddity of it and being able to practice the possible scenarios more than the other guy.
To me, that's always a big plus, but sooner or later you also have to have a solid strategy underlying it. I just don't see it. And if it's really only viable on 1 map, then you're probably better off just using the same strategies you use on other maps. I'm biased as I kinda picked toss in part to my love of dts... But, really, given the lower price... if you open dt in p vs p, you can't go wrong. Or at least I haven't seen it yet.
1 dt expand >>> 100 things you're crossing your fingers for with this strat.
But yeah, if I were to ever try this again, it would only be on said geysers maps. On other maps, if your timing is off at all or they catch wind of 2 probes and see them going towards their geysers, odds are you probably don't take both in time and you auto lose. It's a real stretch of a build, but yes, it's very good at lower leagues. If players haven't proxy gated you, and they don't attack the assimilators in time, you win more times than not. Unfortunately, it's not sustainable.
|
On March 01 2013 05:28 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 05:20 moskonia wrote:On March 01 2013 05:00 playa wrote:
It was one of the first things I tested out in HotS after the mothership core speed change. I even wrote down all of the probe travel times on maps from nexus to nexus to have it be precise. That said... it's dumb. It's bronze league, etc, etc. It will win games at a low level, but that's about it. I'm on a 40 or so game win streak (unranked). There's much better builds. Ones that aren't auto loss against cheese, that still give easy wins.
Personally, I hate facing the cannon rush, even though no one does it anymore. If you want to be real non baller like, do that.
Edit: It's been so long since I've done it, but I did test it out thoroughly. I think everyone at a higher level would just take probes off mining and attack an assimilator. With a rallied zeaot to finish the assimilator off, you just don't end up ahead. You had to take 2 probes off mining at such an early stage, then take their geysers before taking yours. You just end up with increased risk with no real gain against any competent counters. In short, if someone does this strat to you, take a lot of probes and kill off an assimilator, to be able to get a stalker out in time. Just expo asap and turn macro adv into easy win. As I won a GM player with a 2gas steal I would beg to differ that this is a bronze league tactic, I would give the replay for proof but the beta is over sadly. The fact is, killing the gas with probes costs so much it gives a big advantage to the gas thief to make up for the later gate and the 150 minerals wasted. Everyone can lose to something the first time they encounter it, but you should most definitely lose the majority of your games against anyone masters or above. Some maps are kinder than others. For example, on cloud kingdom, you only need to send 1 probe to do the strat. But on other maps, it's 2 probes, and sometimes the travel distance is over a minute. Your eco ends up being trash. They can afford to take probes to attack the geyser. It's no big deal. As long as the probes deal some damage to the assimilator before the zealot finishes it off, it shouldn't be a big deal. While you have to be worried about how many zealots they are making and be defensive in nature, they can just expo asap. There's a huge burden on you to not just kill probes, but a lot of them. It's a strategy that depends on way too many if's and positive happenings. You would be better off just doing an easy proxy oracle build. Hey, I beat pros with that, and I still think it's a bad strat all things considered.
Why would you do this strat on any map other than CK? I never did it on any other map so that is not in discussion here, but I can assure you that if the 2 gasses go down on CK then unless you make a huge mixup you will easily win the game, and that is why map makers need to remember not to put 2 gasses near to each other.
EDIT: @tar - that is the best way yo deal with the gas steal, either pull probes or make a fast cannon to kill the gas while faking a cannon rush (or actually doing one if the gas thief does not notice for some reason). When your gasses are stolen you need to kill the gas or do some cheese that will end the opponent, but since an experienced opponent knows how to stop cheeses with this build you will need to kill the gas so that the msc will not kill all the probes before the stalker arrives.
|
On March 01 2013 08:40 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 05:28 playa wrote:On March 01 2013 05:20 moskonia wrote:On March 01 2013 05:00 playa wrote:
It was one of the first things I tested out in HotS after the mothership core speed change. I even wrote down all of the probe travel times on maps from nexus to nexus to have it be precise. That said... it's dumb. It's bronze league, etc, etc. It will win games at a low level, but that's about it. I'm on a 40 or so game win streak (unranked). There's much better builds. Ones that aren't auto loss against cheese, that still give easy wins.
Personally, I hate facing the cannon rush, even though no one does it anymore. If you want to be real non baller like, do that.
Edit: It's been so long since I've done it, but I did test it out thoroughly. I think everyone at a higher level would just take probes off mining and attack an assimilator. With a rallied zeaot to finish the assimilator off, you just don't end up ahead. You had to take 2 probes off mining at such an early stage, then take their geysers before taking yours. You just end up with increased risk with no real gain against any competent counters. In short, if someone does this strat to you, take a lot of probes and kill off an assimilator, to be able to get a stalker out in time. Just expo asap and turn macro adv into easy win. As I won a GM player with a 2gas steal I would beg to differ that this is a bronze league tactic, I would give the replay for proof but the beta is over sadly. The fact is, killing the gas with probes costs so much it gives a big advantage to the gas thief to make up for the later gate and the 150 minerals wasted. Everyone can lose to something the first time they encounter it, but you should most definitely lose the majority of your games against anyone masters or above. Some maps are kinder than others. For example, on cloud kingdom, you only need to send 1 probe to do the strat. But on other maps, it's 2 probes, and sometimes the travel distance is over a minute. Your eco ends up being trash. They can afford to take probes to attack the geyser. It's no big deal. As long as the probes deal some damage to the assimilator before the zealot finishes it off, it shouldn't be a big deal. While you have to be worried about how many zealots they are making and be defensive in nature, they can just expo asap. There's a huge burden on you to not just kill probes, but a lot of them. It's a strategy that depends on way too many if's and positive happenings. You would be better off just doing an easy proxy oracle build. Hey, I beat pros with that, and I still think it's a bad strat all things considered. Why would you do this strat on any map other than CK? I never did it on any other map so that is not in discussion here, but I can assure you that if the 2 gasses go down on CK then unless you make a huge mixup you will easily win the game, and that is why map makers need to remember not to put 2 gasses near to each other. EDIT: @tar - that is the best way yo deal with the gas steal, either pull probes or make a fast cannon to kill the gas while faking a cannon rush (or actually doing one if the gas thief does not notice for some reason). When your gasses are stolen you need to kill the gas or do some cheese that will end the opponent, but since an experienced opponent knows how to stop cheeses with this build you will need to kill the gas so that the msc will not kill all the probes before the stalker arrives.
I read some of the OP, got the gist, and saw his mention of 2 probes. I'm under the impression that no one really makes a strat guide/suggestion based off 1 map. So, after rereading the OP, it's not saying don't try this on other maps. It's simply noting that there's less of a drawback on cloud kingdom (not named directly).
Until you state that you only do it on cloud kingdom, it's kinda hard to speak on it. If you lose to this on cloud kingdom, you would lose to the cannon rush behind the minerals just the same. I'd rather them address that, first. Yes, it's a lot better on that map, but, if you scout, you just counter steal their geysers and expo. But yeah, I guess the higher the level the less often people scout in time to counter steal your gas.
I'd like to see some replays. If it got real popular, a way of dealing with it could simply be to make your first pylon in a manner that makes them scout for it: If you're not sure you're getting proxied or not, are you still going to take their gas? It's just such an easy style to fuck up and not get their geysers in time.
|
Couldnt you just come out ahead with seeing their 2 probes and putting a probe next to the geyser?
Pull a second one to chase 1-2 around. Profit???
|
counter fe, only 200 minerals behind and nothing to scare with momacore then
also its not doable ... i mean if i see someone steal my gas on 12 ... i instant take my 2nd gas even if i need cancel a probe ... you cant steal both if enemy protoss isnt ignoring metagame
so then you did a before gate 1gas steal and are way behind ... deal with it
ps: i not even need to TAKE it, i can put my probe next to the gas and make HOLD, then you cant build an geysir there and when you attack the probe i send another probe to attack your probe ,... thats NEVER working vs good enemys
|
The OP is really bad, that is why people are confused about this. At a high level you can't do this on any map other than Cloud Kingdom (or any map where the gasses are near each other, although there is no such map on ladder), you send the probe on 9 after placing your first pylon on the ramp so you will be able to scout cheese / block the ramp in case of cheese that is outside of your main. Unless the opponent knows about this build and places a pylon in vision of the main ramp and also has very fast reactions, there is no way for him to stop the gasses from going down since there is a bug where if you que up the building of the 2 gasses outside of your vision range then even if a probe is holding position near a gas you will still be able to build an assimilator there.
After stealing the gasses you have a huge advantage since unless you lose the scouting probe you will know if the opponent goes for an expansion, cheese, zealot pressure, or breaks down the gasses with his probes, and in which case you will be able to react to each case and come out ahead at the very least. The best reaction of the opponent would be to take down 1 gas with his probes so the stalker comes out barely in time in order to deflect the msc away, but still this will make it so that the gas thief has the upper hand regarding the economy, although it shouldn't be too big.
Basically in WoL it was possible to go gasless expand after your gasses are stolen, but in HotS if you do something like this then the msc will kill you (unless you make a shit load of cannons to cover up all angles I guess), which makes expanding most likely not a solid option to go with.
|
Edit: It's been so long since I've done it, but I did test it out thoroughly. I think everyone at a higher level would just take probes off mining and attack an assimilator. With a rallied zeaot to finish the assimilator off, you just don't end up ahead. You had to take 2 probes off mining at such an early stage, then take their geysers before taking yours. You just end up with increased risk with no real gain against any competent counters. In short, if someone does this strat to you, take a lot of probes and kill off an assimilator, to be able to get a stalker out in time. Just expo asap and turn macro adv into easy win.
Do you even know what your talking about? Pulling probes to kill the assimilator, or in the OP's case 2 assimilators, is the worst responses possible for this kind of play; not to mention, once you expo, to collect your "easy win" Your gonna get hit with a timing that will crush you. 9 scouting might cost you 150 minerals. pulling your entire probe line to kill the assimilator will cost you WAYYYY more than that.
|
On March 02 2013 00:04 Obamanation666 wrote:Show nested quote +Edit: It's been so long since I've done it, but I did test it out thoroughly. I think everyone at a higher level would just take probes off mining and attack an assimilator. With a rallied zeaot to finish the assimilator off, you just don't end up ahead. You had to take 2 probes off mining at such an early stage, then take their geysers before taking yours. You just end up with increased risk with no real gain against any competent counters. In short, if someone does this strat to you, take a lot of probes and kill off an assimilator, to be able to get a stalker out in time. Just expo asap and turn macro adv into easy win. Do you even know what your talking about? Pulling probes to kill the assimilator, or in the OP's case 2 assimilators, is the worst responses possible for this kind of play; not to mention, once you expo, to collect your "easy win" Your gonna get hit with a timing that will crush you. 9 scouting might cost you 150 minerals. pulling your entire probe line to kill the assimilator will cost you WAYYYY more than that.
Do you even know what you're talking about? Use common sense. You don't need to kill 2 assimilators to get a freaking stalker out to stop a mothership core. Yeah, I probably do know what I'm talking about since I went from losing to freaking diamond players by using trashy strats like this, to GM, simply by dropping stuff like this.
This strategy is getting severely overrated. It's OK, though. I was probably the first person to start doing this, and at the time, I thought man... this might be pretty good after seeing people with no idea what to do get steam rolled and comment "hey, I'm going to start doing this." Here's what I'm saying now: stop. Even if its good on 1 map, it's 1 freaking map. Just practice something that's better in general. O yes, stacked geysers, now my bad strat is unbeatable!! Give me a break.
|
@Playa
I never stated this was a great strat if you had payed attention to my post. I was just pointing out that your follow up to an already gimmicky strategy was even worse than his. The last way you deal with it is to pull all your probes to kill the assimilator. If your logic is to get a stalker out ASAP, you would be better off taking the gas at your natural and funneling every probe you had to it to get 50 gas (Not saying thats a good idea either), or throwing down a forge and putting a cannon in your mineral line until you could use a zealot to get your gas. If you pull every probe you have to kill 1 assimilator, it will take you over 60 seconds; by then, you might as well type GG.
Think about it.... your throwing away the one advantage you have by pulling all your probes, which is a lead in minerals. If you pull everything to deal with the assimilator, not only will he have a gas and tech advantage over you, but he will have surpassed you in minerals as well.
|
On March 01 2013 05:21 Obamanation666 wrote:
@Natalya
LoL... what the hell... no I don't use this every game, and no my win rate isn't over 75 percent with all of my strategies. If that were the case, don't you think I would be at MLG? I figured this strategy out after they nerfed the 4 gate; as I was tired of 4 gating every single game, so I came up with this in response to the 4 gate, but quickly discovered it could put me ahead of almost any standard build when executed correctly, so I did use it for a season to perfect it. This is only one of many strategies that I have, I typically used this strategy on 2 player maps when I felt that my opponent was much better than me. Im not a pro gamer and have other obligations like work, college, and women. I will say though; I find it pretty intriguing when I'm able to compete with people who have over 200,000 hours of play time. In no way would I recommend this be your only strat.
Yes, I have used this same strategy on people that knew it was coming and still won; although, I did change from collossi play into stargate phoenix play and vice versa to keep them guessing.
Come to think of it.. this definitely tends to work more than once. Typically the first game they will try to all in me. When that fails, they think, I just need to expand. When that fails, they're like WTF. Then you start seeing them take 2 gases by like the 4 min mark (and yes this is in masters), so this strat, if nothing else, plays with peoples minds and emotions. If they get really frustrated, you can count on a big flame and an attempt at cannons in your mineral line, which I've become pretty good at defending since I 9 scout.
You mention using others strats as well. I like the fact it's not your only strats, but i'd go one step further and ask you if you would not be better off by not practicing this gimick at all in the first place so that you get to practice more your solid builds? Especially if you cant play stacraft that much as you say yourself. Dunno I could be wrong on this but always thought that one build per matchup was the way to go. And the builds i choose to train are all macro and solid.
Btw, I dont get what you're saying with people knowing it's coming and double gassing themselves to prevent the gas steal. Should'nt it be better than messing your timings with a hole of 75 minerals in your build? You can just hold position a probe near to the gas to stop the steal right? Or maybe you use the trick someone described (give the order of building a gas while your probe is out of sight of the gas)?
And well, I think it's a little bit of a shame that as you said yourself you ended up gas stealing when you felt like your opponent was way better. I feel personally that trying your more straight up build against a better opponent is the best way to improve. He'll force you to do everything you can to play better, which imo is the best way to improve. Because winning the game is not the point when laddering right? Point is to improve and you improve more when playing straight up than by going for gimmicks that give you win against ppl with way more practice than you, as you said.
|
i'm probably preaching to the choir, here, but i don't think that this strat is skill based. it depends entirely on your opponent being asleep or reacting poorly early game, when there's less to pay attention to. granted, cheese often wins, but in the long run, better players will sniff this out, react accordingly and win.
on the other hand, if your opponent for some reason opens w/ a ffe, then i think the double gas steal is viable, but this is a little later timing than your suggestion...
|
going to test doing gas steal into msc into blink allin. don't really see what that loses to. if they fe they cant have cannons to hold the main and the nat.
|
I can say that this build WILL put you behind against a good opponent. I've had it done to me a few times in Clan Wars. My response was simple. Threw down another gate, laughed, and used first 2 zealots to kill one gas gyser and when the next two were done i ran them to his base. He just took a massive eco hit of 150 mins and an early scout than normal. Now i feel i need to explain the term massive. At the top masters level 200 minerals is the difference between winning and losing certain fights. That is a massive mistake to waste that much money to attempt to stop your opponent from having gas, Essentially you put him in a position to be up 150 minerals on you, and at the same time forced him to be aggressive which means you will need to defend, which also means you are down 150 minerals and time. Now you cut probes by waiting later on the chrono as well. thats another 50-100 minerals lost. Add up all these mineral amounts and you are drastically behind.
|
On March 01 2013 04:48 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 03:58 Obamanation666 wrote:what i get from ur post:
1. u were pretty good at WoL
2 .ur build has nothing to do with the OP
apart from that: that's no new or secret build, it is gas steal followed by a 1 base all in. taking into consideration that u r 9 scouting, 11 gating and gas stealing u r taking pretty hard hits to ur economy. So u could be very well off just doing the same all in without gas stealing and u'd probably still have the same win rate. Well.... i did kinda go off on a tanget. I've just been wanting to share that for a long time, but it does have some relation to the post. It goes into depth to explain the benefit's of gas stealing, so there is some relation. 11 gating DOES NOT hurt your economy in any way that is going to make or break anything, it just ensures that he can't get in your base with a 3-4 gate; although, you do have to begin chronoing on 12 instead of 10, so you could call that giving up maybe 3 seconds of mining time of one probe. Try it if you don't believe me. I understand that if I wasn't taking his gas I WOULD be taking a hard hit to my economy, but I'm NOT losing anything with the 9 scout. I'm trading my minerals for his gas and his future plans; I can assure you, the gas is far more important than the minerals. This forces him into a few options that I can easily read by watching his decisions. He either has to accept that he is now behind in the tech game or take 1 of 2 options that I've already set myself up to win. My opponent gives away his gameplan without realizing it. By him choosing to attack the assimilator or forgo attacking the assimilator, he gives me the information I need on what to do next to win. 95% of the time I can tell you exactly what he is going to do just by, when he attacks the assimilator, what he attacks it with, and it gives me vision into his base; I can see his buildings if he's made his pylon close to the assimilator, and the most important thing; I can see where he is spending his Chrono and see his probe count. High Chrono on the nexus and high probe count? Now I know there is a high chance he is going to expand, so I forgo the second collossi and make sure I hit early warp ins. High Chrono on the core and he forgos attacking the assimilator. I'm gearing up for a lot of ff's on my ramp. I could go on and on, but I think that's probably enough. The information you gain is priceless. It changes his gameplans into your gameplan. It denies him the most important resource in this matchup, gas. You cannot convince me that taking his gas is a bad thing. If I wasn't taking his gas, then we would be on equal footing. Why give him a fair fight? Set him behind by taking away his gas. It's so funny to see that the format of the ladder (forever bo1) influence the play of everyone so deeply. If you were to ever choose to participate tournaments, you would rapidly be known to like to gas steal and everyone would prevent it (by hold positioning a probe next to the gas). I'm not raging or calling you noob or anything but i've always thought it funny to see that players like you develop that very specific kind of play that will forever be impossible for pros to use, because it relies so deeply on remaining hidden. And well, you're probably better than most protosses at playing what follow that gas steal because you've played those scenarios more than probably any other protoss. Personaly, i'll never go on with such gimicks because once you're known to do things like that, they're easily countered (that is, if your opponent know u'll do it before game start), and then you're likely to be completely lost because you dont have that much practice of a standard game. So I dont like the idea of my play relying on something that frail and fragile and prefer to think of myself as an overall solid player, macro-passive kind of player (i ended up having GM level macro with top master ladder rank because i always lacked proper scouting timings and any willingness to be agressive, but that's another story). May I ask you if you still win at least 50% of your pvp if you meet the same dude twice in a row and he prevents gas steal?
pvp standard is a lot of one base stuff and you don't lose that many mins for a failed gas steal. It also doesn't work on every map so you will still have practice using different builds.
|
I was so surprised when this hit me the first time. Like what an idiot, he's stealing both my gas, how is that going to be worth it... then the MsC shows up in my base... wow. Next match was a PvP, so I passed it on to the next protoss. So much fun.
|
I was plat when I went up vs this build, the problem is he invested 150 minerals into both geysers so early, which means his army's gonna suffer, so I went for 3 gate pure zealots heavy pressure, and his mothership core simply didnt have enough DPS to take them out. The game turned into a base race, with me having 7-8 zealots and a hidden base and he having 2 stalkers+useless probes. I bet pros can respond to this much better than I can so I don't really think this will be as good vs pros.
I dont think oracle's a good counter either, their attack is energy based, which means they can only kill a limited number of zealots in a limited time, plus he invested 150 minerals into gas stealing which will heavily delay his stargate. If he's bold enough to go straight to stargate, he wont have any kind of meaningful army to answer the zealot pressure
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
