EPTWatch from 5 minutes to 20 minutes at the least. Shows reaper openings and things like fast widow mine = total oracle shutdown to delayed widow mine, run away workes, into viking widow mine to slow down oracles. Terran has the least problems dealing with Oracles if you suspect them, so it's all about scouting and knowing what is coming.
[H] Trouble Dealing with Oracles P and T - Page 3
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
Watch from 5 minutes to 20 minutes at the least. Shows reaper openings and things like fast widow mine = total oracle shutdown to delayed widow mine, run away workes, into viking widow mine to slow down oracles. Terran has the least problems dealing with Oracles if you suspect them, so it's all about scouting and knowing what is coming. | ||
|
Drake
Germany6146 Posts
EVERY terran should open 1 reaper ... free not deniable scout that tells you always exactly what the enemy does | ||
|
Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On February 20 2013 06:41 Stingart wrote: I always play bio in every MU and it has served me well as i become a Masters WoL and Hots player. I asked for a BO that could stop all cheese from a Toss while still being flexible enough to play standerd to test your knowledge about Terran. Because i think your theory sounds nice, in a good way. But without a way to make it real and practical, it won't ever hold up in a game. We use BO's and If > Then scenario's to test the theory. I personally think that you are not experienced with Terran. I had my doubts earlier because you make the reaper sound like a unit that will scout without fail, which to my knowledge and experience has never been the case. I'm also doubting your knowledge about Terran because you fail to give the simplest BO. If you can come up with a nice BO, you are breaking new grounds, even if you think its "common knowledge". No Terran that i know has figured it out. If you do, i'm eager to learn what you know. Maybe share a couple of replay's? If you could do that, there is no need for a BO. I just caught this fairly recent state of the game, and it sounds like QXC was heavily favoring opening reaper to scout gasses to detect what all-in is coming. I've always liked QXC's playstyle, and now I like him even more because he's showing this as a likely viable opening at high competition. He even goes to say he doesn't lose TvP in the beta almost ever. He also says he likes to go mines afterward and then bio + hellbat later. And he backs up what others have mentioned that the one problem is if you go mines and they go blink + observer all-in... then you have to place your mines further back, etc. and it's harder. But the reaper is very good for scouting what is coming... I think it's the way to go. Check it out from 46:50 onward: Anyway, time will tell. It's early yet... many things to be explored. Also in the video, Artosis mentions that he stopped opening oracle against Terran because getting one shot from a mine was too punishing. I think other Protosses are leaning away from Oracle openings for the same reason. | ||
|
Stingart
122 Posts
On February 23 2013 05:49 CoR wrote: i always tought mech is hardcounter to oracle. mines blindkill them 1hit, on mid/low master no chance with oracle vs mech terrans ... EVERY terran should open 1 reaper ... free not deniable scout that tells you always exactly what the enemy does A reaper is a FREE, 100% reliable unit now huh? I must've been missing some patch notes because the last time i checked reapers costed 50/50, so they require a gas opening and any unit, except workers + un upgraded zealots/zerglings could ever lose to 1 reaper. With micro you can even catch the reaper and kill it or just deny spaces in your base. But hey, that was before, they where perfectly fine. Apparently they are now free and 100% reliable. | ||
|
D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
- Blink Stalker + MsC as mentioned earlier by several of you guys - DT's(of late they always hide their dark shrine, in some cases completely outside their base and some sneaky spot) - some form of gateway + robo or stargate So I prepare with bunkers and so on, only to discover I've been completely and utterly tricked. It was just a sentry expand, and I prepared in fear all for nothing, and fall behind. | ||
|
Xequecal
United States473 Posts
Right now, it's perfectly viable to open 15 or 17 Nexus into Gate Core Stargate and pump Oracles. All the gas you would have been spending on Stalkers, Sentries, and Observers in WoL can go straight into Oracles. Why? Because they do >30 DPS to light units (Marines) and Zealots tank damage for Oracles just as well as they can tank damage for Stalkers. However, unlike Stalkers, Oracles keep up with kiting Marines due to their high speed and keep pushing in the damage. Not only do Oracles two shot Marines with a 0.86 weapon cooldown, they don't waste shots on the Medivacs either like Stalkers tend to do, which means the Terran bio blob starts losing DPS potential immediately. 4-5 Oracles plus some Zealots will absolutely annihilate any early bio pushes. Because of this ability to destroy early pushes, you can follow up by taking your third base at like 7 minutes in and there's very little the Terran can do to kill it or keep up with you. In addition to destroying early pushes, the Oracles can also scout for AND kill any attempted drops. What are they going to drop on you? Marines? Hellions? Hellbats? The Oracles massacre all of these faster than Medivacs can unload them. They also force the Terran to waste resources on turrets in their base just because of the threat of having their workers annihilated. Against Terran, this unit does everything. It detects, it denies drops, it denies early aggression, it scouts them, and it harasses their workers. If Terran goes mech, you already have the Stargate and are well on your way to the direct counter, Tempests. If Terran goes bio, you can just slap down a council and go for Templar tech and Charge. You'll be very, very surprised at how effectively a half-dozen Oracles and massed chargelots takes apart MMM. Terran has to be near maxed or have Ghosts or Vikings out to beat Chargelot/Oracle with bio, which gives you all the time you need to get HTs out. Even heading into the late game, those Oracles you made remain useful. 4 Oracles can detect AND one-shot a Ghost that moves away from their main army to try and EMP your HTs. You can constantly reveal their army so you know exactly where they are and exactly how you need to position. Large lategame drops can be handled by simply sending over the Oracles and warping some units in. An Oracle can also single-handedly detect a Ghost that is nuking you AND kill that Ghost. | ||
|
StaraCroft
Austria292 Posts
Oh that being said... if you think you can 1rax expand in hots, I'm still going to poop on your face with oracles and collect an easy win. - it will probably take a couple of months to figure out tvp, but it looks like there's a reasonable answer to all 1-base all-ins. And if you have oracles snipe your ghosts late game then... idk what to tell you. That is amazing. I hope you're making this up. | ||
|
SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On March 03 2013 20:18 Xequecal wrote: Personally, as a Protoss player I think Oracles are going to be nerfed pretty hard. They're just way too good against Terran right now, and not because of the Oracle rush build, either. Right now, it's perfectly viable to open 15 or 17 Nexus into Gate Core Stargate and pump Oracles. All the gas you would have been spending on Stalkers, Sentries, and Observers in WoL can go straight into Oracles. Why? Because they do >30 DPS to light units (Marines) and Zealots tank damage for Oracles just as well as they can tank damage for Stalkers. However, unlike Stalkers, Oracles keep up with kiting Marines due to their high speed and keep pushing in the damage. Not only do Oracles two shot Marines with a 0.86 weapon cooldown, they don't waste shots on the Medivacs either like Stalkers tend to do, which means the Terran bio blob starts losing DPS potential immediately. 4-5 Oracles plus some Zealots will absolutely annihilate any early bio pushes. Because of this ability to destroy early pushes, you can follow up by taking your third base at like 7 minutes in and there's very little the Terran can do to kill it or keep up with you. In addition to destroying early pushes, the Oracles can also scout for AND kill any attempted drops. What are they going to drop on you? Marines? Hellions? Hellbats? The Oracles massacre all of these faster than Medivacs can unload them. They also force the Terran to waste resources on turrets in their base just because of the threat of having their workers annihilated. Against Terran, this unit does everything. It detects, it denies drops, it denies early aggression, it scouts them, and it harasses their workers. If Terran goes mech, you already have the Stargate and are well on your way to the direct counter, Tempests. If Terran goes bio, you can just slap down a council and go for Templar tech and Charge. You'll be very, very surprised at how effectively a half-dozen Oracles and massed chargelots takes apart MMM. Terran has to be near maxed or have Ghosts or Vikings out to beat Chargelot/Oracle with bio, which gives you all the time you need to get HTs out. Even heading into the late game, those Oracles you made remain useful. 4 Oracles can detect AND one-shot a Ghost that moves away from their main army to try and EMP your HTs. You can constantly reveal their army so you know exactly where they are and exactly how you need to position. Large lategame drops can be handled by simply sending over the Oracles and warping some units in. An Oracle can also single-handedly detect a Ghost that is nuking you AND kill that Ghost. I agree. Even when I've held off the Oracle they still use 2-3 of them for map control. I've even had situations where i unburrow 4 mines (2 at the main, 2 at the natural) thinking the push was "held off" only to have them come back mid-game and reharass the mineral line and devastate in seconds. So are you telling me im supposed to spend 300 minerals/100 gas and 8 supply just do defend in early game? Just seems as a mech player Oracles can keep map dominance too long through speed, damage and detection. I've had some opponents just go straight into airtoss (tempest) after they see ive invested so much in preventing the harass. The only time i've had success is going gas first into 4 helion run-by at their main, into two windows mines while pumping marines. But some would say that's pretty all-in if they block off correctly. The topic is debatable. | ||
|
gobbledydook
Australia2605 Posts
On March 04 2013 11:56 SirPinky wrote: I agree. Even when I've held off the Oracle they still use 2-3 of them for map control. I've even had situations where i unburrow 4 mines (2 at the main, 2 at the natural) thinking the push was "held off" only to have them come back mid-game and reharass the mineral line and devastate in seconds. So are you telling me im supposed to spend 300 minerals/100 gas and 8 supply just do defend in early game? Just seems as a mech player Oracles can keep map dominance too long through speed, damage and detection. I've had some opponents just go straight into airtoss (tempest) after they see ive invested so much in preventing the harass. The only time i've had success is going gas first into 4 helion run-by at their main, into two windows mines while pumping marines. But some would say that's pretty all-in if they block off correctly. The topic is debatable. the 2-3 Oracles are 6-8 supply and 300/300 or 450/450... you're only spending 300/100 on defense. Suck it. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
|
SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On March 04 2013 13:27 gobbledydook wrote: the 2-3 Oracles are 6-8 supply and 300/300 or 450/450... you're only spending 300/100 on defense. Suck it. You're comparing apples to oranges (i.e. Oracles to Window Mines?!!) while making a completely inflammatory statement. Please read what the units actually do before commenting. | ||
|
Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
For the mid and late game, when I play T I'd be willing to spend minerals on at least 2 turrets per base and have one viking on hotkey 0 or something to help come to the rescue in multiple ones fly in. Or maybe sensor tower if it's getting really hairy. One of the most important things to protecting workers is to just high tail it out of there. Oracles get probably 1/3 the kills when workers are on the run and unless it's midgame their energy will run out fairly quickly. Obviously you want to try running before the oracles actually get the first attack off. | ||
|
Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On March 03 2013 20:18 Xequecal wrote: Personally, as a Protoss player I think Oracles are going to be nerfed pretty hard. They're just way too good against Terran right now, and not because of the Oracle rush build, either. Right now, it's perfectly viable to open 15 or 17 Nexus into Gate Core Stargate and pump Oracles. All the gas you would have been spending on Stalkers, Sentries, and Observers in WoL can go straight into Oracles. Why? Because they do >30 DPS to light units (Marines) and Zealots tank damage for Oracles just as well as they can tank damage for Stalkers. However, unlike Stalkers, Oracles keep up with kiting Marines due to their high speed and keep pushing in the damage. Not only do Oracles two shot Marines with a 0.86 weapon cooldown, they don't waste shots on the Medivacs either like Stalkers tend to do, which means the Terran bio blob starts losing DPS potential immediately. 4-5 Oracles plus some Zealots will absolutely annihilate any early bio pushes. Because of this ability to destroy early pushes, you can follow up by taking your third base at like 7 minutes in and there's very little the Terran can do to kill it or keep up with you. In addition to destroying early pushes, the Oracles can also scout for AND kill any attempted drops. What are they going to drop on you? Marines? Hellions? Hellbats? The Oracles massacre all of these faster than Medivacs can unload them. They also force the Terran to waste resources on turrets in their base just because of the threat of having their workers annihilated. Against Terran, this unit does everything. It detects, it denies drops, it denies early aggression, it scouts them, and it harasses their workers. If Terran goes mech, you already have the Stargate and are well on your way to the direct counter, Tempests. If Terran goes bio, you can just slap down a council and go for Templar tech and Charge. You'll be very, very surprised at how effectively a half-dozen Oracles and massed chargelots takes apart MMM. Terran has to be near maxed or have Ghosts or Vikings out to beat Chargelot/Oracle with bio, which gives you all the time you need to get HTs out. Even heading into the late game, those Oracles you made remain useful. 4 Oracles can detect AND one-shot a Ghost that moves away from their main army to try and EMP your HTs. You can constantly reveal their army so you know exactly where they are and exactly how you need to position. Large lategame drops can be handled by simply sending over the Oracles and warping some units in. An Oracle can also single-handedly detect a Ghost that is nuking you AND kill that Ghost. You make great points. I have had a bit of success with some of these tactics (like oracles + zealots vs marines) previously but never in close games so I wasn't sure if it was valid or not. It's all about the metagame of course and if the builds work out or not. Certainly Blizzard realized Protoss could never open stargate unless there was a way to deal with the stim medivac marine timing, so it cannot be coincidence that oracles are good against marines. As for defense of drops, I think that's a pretty nice idea regardless. It could cause some cat and mouse with viking + medivac if Terran sees Protoss is on top of things with a spare oracle. Personally I don't know if it's broken to have better drop defense if medivacs keep the free speed boost. It probably works out nicely really. If terran sees an oracle sitting there waiting then I think it's pretty clear there is no need to try to drop... similar to if Terran sees 3 or 4 stalkers sitting waiting to snipe an incoming medivac. Stalkers cost more minerals, oracle costs more gas. Seems about right, especially since you can lead with a viking vs an oracle. The further out Protoss patrols an oracle the better the viking would be, even used for feints and whatnot. Vs. nuking ghosts, that is a good idea. Maybe use 2 ghosts at a time, one to nuke and one to EMP the oracle. We're getting into heavy theorycrafting here, but why not it's fun. BTW, I'd rather see more active units (oracles) than loads of cannons into turtle defense. Vs any cloaked ghost the P will still have to see the glimmer to know a ghost is there. T may want to cover ghosts in armies with vikings if they lead out front too much. Looks like 4 vikings will one shot an oracle, so I'm not sure that's a problem as vikings are in play half the time anyway. Finally, you talk about wasted resources in turrets. Obviously nobody wants to build static defense, but sometimes it works out just fine. Really banshees do similarly to Protoss that oracles do to Terran, only terran has been going starport in standard builds for a long time such that a viking is not ever far off a normal build. I definitely understand the weirdness of the situation though because Terran hasn't been afraid of an air unit other than the broodlord for a long time. It is a very new and funky situation and will take a lot of testing to see if something is too strong or not. I do keep going back to reavers being similar to oracles though... I played BW more heavily in the early days when things were different, but I'm willing to bet early game reaver vs. hydra play is slightly similar to how the oracle is going to play out. That is, if Zerg suspected an incoming reaver he could sit at the edge of his base and intercept with hydras. Or he could go for mutas. If protoss caught zerg unawares he could do pretty good damage, but otherwise not so much. As for spending all gas on oracle and all minerals on zealots, two crazy ideas: 1. Viking + hellion is a direct army counter. Lead with vikings, you got it after that. Midgame? Hellbats work even better. 2. (More risky but just for fun) I wonder what would happen if Terran went all air. Complete theorycrafting, but build only enough vikings to kill any phoenix and the rest in banshees to take on the lower content of stalkers. It seems a lot easier to snipe oracles than observers since there is nowhere to hide. No detection = dead Protoss. Keep marines or hellions (mineral dump) way in the back and only use if oracles are mostly gone. The vikings could even land to suicide on newly warped in stalkers to keep the banshees in the air longer. It sounds insane, but 1 viking + 1 banshee is almost the gas cost of one oracle. It takes more than one stalker per banshee. With repair? Could it possibly work? OMG, come on retail... I suddenly want to play on both sides of oracle games very much right now. | ||
|
YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
However the problem lies with 2gas and scouting.. 2gas could mean anything from DTs, blink stalkers, or even a greedy gas opener while taking their expansion + denied scv scouting (this is where the reaper is useful). With T, you know what T will get if hes got 1 gas or gas first. All of those are predictable and be defended with easy as the defense required dont deviate too much from another compared to what T requires. The thing I dont like about oracles is that they contain the T in the early/mid game where T has to somehow get an upper hand against the protoss. They dont have to be used for harass and instead force mines/turrets etc. If they skip this, they get punished so bad. Any early timings dont work anymore thanks to nexus cannon + timewarp.. Protoss have it easy these days. Even the early oracles can be used effectively to defend against any sort of 1-1-1 attempts or early aggression with the gateway force. | ||
|
YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On March 03 2013 12:22 D_K_night wrote: The single Oracle coming into your mineral line is like a banshee but seemingly deadlier. The one thing that I still struggle with is the Toss 2-gas opener. Because it immediately makes me think - OK, I have to prepare for something deadly enroute, to the tune of: - Blink Stalker + MsC as mentioned earlier by several of you guys - DT's(of late they always hide their dark shrine, in some cases completely outside their base and some sneaky spot) - some form of gateway + robo or stargate So I prepare with bunkers and so on, only to discover I've been completely and utterly tricked. It was just a sentry expand, and I prepared in fear all for nothing, and fall behind. Happened to me a few times. They can go absolutely greed mode where infact it might be the 6:00min oracle heading your way etc. Too much guessing game tbh. | ||
|
Chr15t
Denmark1103 Posts
| ||
|
bananafone
68 Posts
I'll be honest and say i have no idea what the easiest way to get an acceptable defense is. However i know that you need 5 marines (in a clump!!!), a turret or a widow mine to deal with it. 4 marines wont cut it, 6 marines where 4 of them is in a clump and the remaining 2 are exiting the barack half a screen away wont do it either. If you do not have 5 marines clumped up do not engage the oracle. Treat it like a hellbat, run away from it until you have proper defenses. I can't guarantee you an elegant or effortless defense based on the above, however i can guarantee that you will never die or be set into an unwinable position if you just follow the above advice. | ||
|
StaraCroft
Austria292 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412336 If you don't have your build down exactly you can hold this and my version is much more aggressive than a standard proxy stargate. Against what I do in those replays you need a bunker on top of your main ramp and a turret in your mineral line or else you won't have a good time. | ||
| ||
