Hi, I'm a mech high master Terran in WoL and I play at the same level in HOTS. I don't know what it is about Oracles but I swear they are almost worse for me than Hellbat drop. I either need a Turret in EXACTLY the right place or I need mines. Its not like I dont scout it; I see the double gas and proceed to move my marines in place but you need at least 5 marines (yes, i tried this in the unit test map) to kill one oracle. They are extremely fast and can harass even if they don't do the expected damage.
I enjoy watching Incontrol's steam and I've even faced Mr. Windrammer from time-to-time, but he even mentions that his toughest time is dealing with Oracles.
As a Terran my other problem is once I see an oracle and, not only do i have to turtle but the question becomes "are they also going Vray all-in?" Many opponents just go 1 Vray and "trick" their opponent into over producing vikings. I've also had people show 1 Tempest harass to over produce vikings. I'm really confused at this point: It seems any air I see as a Terran becomes "auto Turtle" unless I've inflicted a large deal of damage with a counter drop.
Is it just me? Or are other people having issues with the Oracle? What is the default build to shut that down as a mech Terran? Drop a e-bay or make vikings? I've tried Window mines, but many times if they see me burrow around the mineral line they just harass my army units and ignore the mineral line. Please help.
On February 19 2013 15:00 SirPinky wrote: Hi, I'm a mech high master Terran in WoL and I play at the same level in HOTS. I don't know what it is about Oracles but I swear they are almost worse for me than Hellbat drop. I either need a Turret in EXACTLY the right place or I need mines. Its not like I dont scout it; I see the double gas and proceed to move my marines in place but you need at least 5 marines (yes, i tried this in the unit test map) to kill one oracle. They are extremely fast and can harass even if they don't do the expected damage.
I enjoy watching Incontrol's steam and I've even faced Mr. Windrammer from time-to-time, but he even mentions that his toughest time is dealing with Oracles.
As a Terran my other problem is once I see an oracle and, not only do i have to turtle but the question becomes "are they also going Vray all-in?" Many opponents just go 1 Vray and "trick" their opponent into over producing vikings. I've also had people show 1 Tempest harass to over produce vikings. I'm really confused at this point: It seems any air I see as a Terran becomes "auto Turtle" unless I've inflicted a large deal of damage with a counter drop.
Is it just me? Or are other people having issues with the Oracle? What is the default build to shut that down as a mech Terran? Drop a e-bay or make vikings? I've tried Window mines, but many times if they see me burrow around the mineral line they just harass my army units and ignore the mineral line. Please help.
Thanks,
Pinky
One of the ways I counter this is picking the correct opening. I find that opening 1 gas into 1 barracks 1 factory helps defend a decent amount of all ins. You can get 4-5 marines and 1 hellion out to stop all the pokes except the mothership core one. However if you see a double gas you can just get a widow mine anyway. If you truly fear the oracle keep 1-2 widow mines in your mineral line and it helps negate it. I place 1 in my mineral lines, then 1 near my army then I usually go for siege tank play 3 or go into hellion harass into tank.
Another way to go about it is if you know it's going to be stargate tech, widow mine viking is pretty good at holding it off until you can get thor raven viking. The widow mines can run up under the tempest and burrow with the research, this is effective because he won't have collosai or storm yet.
It's all very dependent on what you scout. Be sure to scan his stargate occasionally to get an accurate reading.
I've used this opener a lot today, maybe this could be useful for you. I don't really want to sift through my replays to find you the tvp games this is easier.
I wish I had an answer to this. There's so many viable toss allins in HotS that it seems borderline impossible to defend against all of them. In addition to the already-strong WoL allins, we now have the bunker-buster VR allin, the oracle + frontal attack allin, and an even stronger blink stalker allin.
Concerning defending oracles, people will say "bring 5-6 marines into your main", or "build a turret in your main", which is great, and will hold off an oracle, except now you either are down 5-6 marines or have an ebay + turret doing nothing in your main, which makes a VR bust much harder to hold.
It seems to be a rock-paper-scissors game at this point, where if you guess the allin, you win, and if you don't, you lose.
You really don't want to 1rax expand anymore. I assume you're 1rax expanding because that is the only way that oracles can be a problem. CC first gives twice the marine count you need to deflect it and with any gas build you can just defend with widow mines if you scout double gas. Maybe you can go 1rax into factory asap, but that seems like it would be very close to hold any gateway pressure.
Against VR all-ins I really don't think you want to build vikings... you probably shouldn't even have built a stargate at that point if you didn't confirm an expansion. Bunkers and turrets can still hold that just fine if you scout it.
Also start noting timings. I'm not sure when my first oracle hits, but VR all-in is very close to 7:30 with 2 void rays. If you send a marine out at 6:30 you should scout him building a proxy pylon and then you might have enough time to set up static defences.
Open defensive widow mine vs 2 gas. Problem solved. 1 in each mineral line. Mine 1shot oracle. Suddenly you're lightyears ahead. Engi bay = doing nothing? how about upgrades ?
Honestly, if you're getting 2 widowmines against double gas openers you should be fine....oracles die to widow mines 1 shot and as long as you make 1 bunker/marines behind it you should be able to hold...but the key is scouting whether they expoed or not...and as for overproducing...you should prolly scout with scvs...if you really don't know his comp then you're going to have to scan....in the case where they all in just pull back up your ramp and make another bunker (should be common sense for a high master terran) if in the case you went gasless expo well turret in combination with marine micro while getting a viking out should be decent against void ray all ins
On February 19 2013 15:00 SirPinky wrote: Hi, I'm a mech high master Terran in WoL and I play at the same level in HOTS. I don't know what it is about Oracles but I swear they are almost worse for me than Hellbat drop. I either need a Turret in EXACTLY the right place or I need mines. Its not like I dont scout it; I see the double gas and proceed to move my marines in place but you need at least 5 marines (yes, i tried this in the unit test map) to kill one oracle. They are extremely fast and can harass even if they don't do the expected damage.
I enjoy watching Incontrol's steam and I've even faced Mr. Windrammer from time-to-time, but he even mentions that his toughest time is dealing with Oracles.
As a Terran my other problem is once I see an oracle and, not only do i have to turtle but the question becomes "are they also going Vray all-in?" Many opponents just go 1 Vray and "trick" their opponent into over producing vikings. I've also had people show 1 Tempest harass to over produce vikings. I'm really confused at this point: It seems any air I see as a Terran becomes "auto Turtle" unless I've inflicted a large deal of damage with a counter drop.
Is it just me? Or are other people having issues with the Oracle? What is the default build to shut that down as a mech Terran? Drop a e-bay or make vikings? I've tried Window mines, but many times if they see me burrow around the mineral line they just harass my army units and ignore the mineral line. Please help.
Thanks,
Pinky
One of the ways I counter this is picking the correct opening. I find that opening 1 gas into 1 barracks 1 factory helps defend a decent amount of all ins. You can get 4-5 marines and 1 hellion out to stop all the pokes except the mothership core one. However if you see a double gas you can just get a widow mine anyway. If you truly fear the oracle keep 1-2 widow mines in your mineral line and it helps negate it. I place 1 in my mineral lines, then 1 near my army then I usually go for siege tank play 3 or go into hellion harass into tank.
Another way to go about it is if you know it's going to be stargate tech, widow mine viking is pretty good at holding it off until you can get thor raven viking. The widow mines can run up under the tempest and burrow with the research, this is effective because he won't have collosai or storm yet.
It's all very dependent on what you scout. Be sure to scan his stargate occasionally to get an accurate reading.
I've used this opener a lot today, maybe this could be useful for you. I don't really want to sift through my replays to find you the tvp games this is easier.
On February 19 2013 16:17 Cloudshade wrote: Honestly, if you're getting 2 widowmines against double gas openers you should be fine....oracles die to widow mines 1 shot and as long as you make 1 bunker/marines behind it you should be able to hold...but the key is scouting whether they expoed or not...and as for overproducing...you should prolly scout with scvs...if you really don't know his comp then you're going to have to scan....in the case where they all in just pull back up your ramp and make another bunker (should be common sense for a high master terran) if in the case you went gasless expo well turret in combination with marine micro while getting a viking out should be decent against void ray all ins
Blink stalker allin hard-counters the 2x widow mine defense (especially if they do it with an obs instead of a MSC). It is indistinguishable from any other opening if they proxy it. It does work vs oracles, though - but part of the issue here is that it's very hard to make a universal defense based on reliable scouting information.
On February 19 2013 15:18 iEchoic wrote: It seems to be a rock-paper-scissors game at this point, where if you guess the allin, you win, and if you don't, you lose.
Lol, and isn't that the point of an allin ? You wanna just be safe vs allins going standard macro build, that's funny.
On February 19 2013 15:18 iEchoic wrote: It seems to be a rock-paper-scissors game at this point, where if you guess the allin, you win, and if you don't, you lose.
Lol, and isn't that the point of an allin ? You wanna just be safe vs allins going standard macro build, that's funny.
No, the point is that both players should have the opportunity to out-control the other to win. However, when you have to defend against 6 types of allins and several of them require vastly different responses and cannot be reliably scouted, it becomes more of rock-paper-scissors where the allin is awful if you guess the right one and unstoppable if you guess the wrong one. Prior to hots, this response didn't exist, because oracles didn't exist.
If you expect oracles in your main, and put 5 marines there or build an ebay and a turret, you're now very weak to void ray allins, and there is no way to reliably scout the difference.
I personally open rax, gas, factory, cc into one tank and then hellion or mine production depending on what I scout and find I have little to no issue with any kind of all in/hurass.
If I see double gas, then a 4 gate I add another tank at the top of my ramp and a bunker. Just make sure your tank is far enough away that it can hit stuff on the ramp, but can't be shot at by anything (all about positioning here, if you lose the tank you lose the game).
If I see double gas and a very low gate count I know it's most likely going to be a stargate so add a turret near my mineral line and one near my factory (this will also help later on when I want to keep my factory count secret from observers if I go for a 6 fact all in against early third.
You can say this kind of opening puts you behind, but it's better being behind than dead and the opening itself leads very nicely on to the mid and or late game. The tank/s protect you from any form of gateway agression, even blink if you pull scvs (better behind than dead and I'm on 2CC so I can afford to lose workers) and as long as you never forget to have a turret in your mineral line (put it close to the side where he flies in if there's little to no air space (e.g. cloud kingdom) and you'll never take any damage from any oracles, atleast not enough for you to worry about.
I really have no issue with toss having so many all ins early game against mech. It reminds me a lot of Broodwar and the all ins now are not half as bad as say reaver drops were to try and defend :p
I started going gas first reaper into factory and some mines. I just build a single reaper and factory, then I start my CC. after I started the CC I build some marines to put in a bunker (I actually go bio off of this, so you may change that up).
I just put 4 mines around my mineral lines and scout the front with my reaper. if you scout an attack and at the front and no oracles, you should have enough time to pull your mines to the front.
It's hard for me to understand why scouting is so hard. The only way I feel early game TvP to be hard is if you avoid gas or play too greedy. As soon as you see 2 gas at the P, reduce your greed.
What if you do it like this:
Scout with SCV on 14 for most maps. You will see if double gas and count pylons. If he is hiding his 3rd pylon, then hidden tech. FIND IT with a reaper. It's fast and mobile.
So I think to be safe you always gas open, fast reaper, and you can see what is building in the stargate or other tech.
Obviously new maps may not be figured out yet as to where things are to be hidden, so you'll have to scout a lot. If you only scout near places, that would normally eliminate stargate play though, right? [Edit: Except oracle openings I'd say, so just eliminates voidray] And if he is going for a super fast loan oracle, he will not research warpgate or build a stalker very soon... that's a big tell. If he is going for a VR all in, check number of gateways... timings will be very different than for a blink build, right? A voidray costs 250 minerals, blink only 150 minerals.
-I'm assuming you are bouncing your reaper in and out to scout if nothing else. You can always proxy a barracks, fly it, and scout his main if you know he's putting tech there. It's got to be cheaper than using a scan, huh?
Alternatively... is he hiding tech in his main? If his stalker is late, it's an oracle likely. If he builds a sentry, it's going to be a very late whatever so you have more time to prepare.
Really, with Mules and the ability to expand safely inside your own base, Terran has really nice all-in defense... only the oracle requires special planning IMO. Blink stalker all ins aren't all that much scary in HOTS because if they go for the MsC variety, the MsC is about as expensive as a robo... so they basically get one more stalker out of the deal. Blink research is slower now, so... I just think it's very holdable. I can't remember the last time I saw a blink all-in kill a Terran in GSL... even MC failed miserably last time he tried it. Only the introduction of the oracle and confusion on the side of the Terran could make this build scary, IMO. Terran has new weapons with much faster reaper scouting, free siegemode, widowmines. And if you just go marine/marauder with bunkers you get a free win already if you knew it was coming.
On February 20 2013 01:06 Blacklizard wrote: It's hard for me to understand why scouting is so hard. The only way I feel early game TvP to be hard is if you avoid gas or play too greedy. As soon as you see 2 gas at the P, reduce your greed.
What if you do it like this:
Scout with SCV on 14 for most maps. You will see if double gas and count pylons. If he is hiding his 3rd pylon, then hidden tech. FIND IT with a reaper. It's fast and mobile.
So I think to be safe you always gas open, fast reaper, and you can see what is building in the stargate or other tech.
Obviously new maps may not be figured out yet as to where things are to be hidden, so you'll have to scout a lot. If you only scout near places, that would normally eliminate stargate play though, right? [Edit: Except oracle openings I'd say, so just eliminates voidray] And if he is going for a super fast loan oracle, he will not research warpgate or build a stalker very soon... that's a big tell. If he is going for a VR all in, check number of gateways... timings will be very different than for a blink build, right? A voidray costs 250 minerals, blink only 150 minerals.
-I'm assuming you are bouncing your reaper in and out to scout if nothing else. You can always proxy a barracks, fly it, and scout his main if you know he's putting tech there. It's got to be cheaper than using a scan, huh?
Alternatively... is he hiding tech in his main? If his stalker is late, it's an oracle likely. If he builds a sentry, it's going to be a very late whatever so you have more time to prepare.
Really, with Mules and the ability to expand safely inside your own base, Terran has really nice all-in defense... only the oracle requires special planning IMO. Blink stalker all ins aren't all that much scary in HOTS because if they go for the MsC variety, the MsC is about as expensive as a robo... so they basically get one more stalker out of the deal. Blink research is slower now, so... I just think it's very holdable. I can't remember the last time I saw a blink all-in kill a Terran in GSL... even MC failed miserably last time he tried it. Only the introduction of the oracle and confusion on the side of the Terran could make this build scary, IMO. Terran has new weapons with much faster reaper scouting, free siegemode, widowmines. And if you just go marine/marauder with bunkers you get a free win already if you knew it was coming.
So, in conclusion. What opening build do you propose that a Mech Terran has to use for your theory to work?
On February 19 2013 15:18 iEchoic wrote: It seems to be a rock-paper-scissors game at this point, where if you guess the allin, you win, and if you don't, you lose.
Lol, and isn't that the point of an allin ? You wanna just be safe vs allins going standard macro build, that's funny.
No, the point is that both players should have the opportunity to out-control the other to win. However, when you have to defend against 6 types of allins and several of them require vastly different responses and cannot be reliably scouted, it becomes more of rock-paper-scissors where the allin is awful if you guess the right one and unstoppable if you guess the wrong one. Prior to hots, this response didn't exist, because oracles didn't exist.
If you expect oracles in your main, and put 5 marines there or build an ebay and a turret, you're now very weak to void ray allins, and there is no way to reliably scout the difference.
In what way shape or form is this different from how Protoss has to react to a terran who gets a fast second unfinished supply depot down to block the ramp so the scouting probe can't get in, and thus has to guess entirely what terran is doing based on a stalker/zealot poke until an observer is out? Meanwhile, Terran can be doing 6 different builds easily, and by the time you scout it, it's quite late to make any significant changes to your build, and you can be in a lot of trouble. It's especially fun when you don't all-in and find out later he went triple orbital and you're super far behind because you played as safe as possible before your observer got there to make sure you'd be prepared for a marine/scv all-in or something.
TvP is pretty broken in Hots, Protoss has 20 different cheeses while beeing safe with the planetary nexus, so it is hard to find a safe build that is economical at the same time. What works best for me so far is 12 rax 14 gas, get a factory but continue marine protuduction off the rax, so dont make an addon since you would die to core and stalker harass. Get a bunker at ramp and put mines in mineral line. Once the bunker is up and the first mine is out you can safely get a reactor on the rax to later get double mine or hellion. I also like to get a starport just to drop the mines later on in his base when I feel safe. I do this off 1 gas so I can afford a CC, then get second gas and add a factory and armory for hellbats. Or you can go bio from there too.
On February 19 2013 15:18 iEchoic wrote: It seems to be a rock-paper-scissors game at this point, where if you guess the allin, you win, and if you don't, you lose.
Lol, and isn't that the point of an allin ? You wanna just be safe vs allins going standard macro build, that's funny.
No, the point is that both players should have the opportunity to out-control the other to win. However, when you have to defend against 6 types of allins and several of them require vastly different responses and cannot be reliably scouted, it becomes more of rock-paper-scissors where the allin is awful if you guess the right one and unstoppable if you guess the wrong one. Prior to hots, this response didn't exist, because oracles didn't exist.
If you expect oracles in your main, and put 5 marines there or build an ebay and a turret, you're now very weak to void ray allins, and there is no way to reliably scout the difference.
In what way shape or form is this different from how Protoss has to react to a terran who gets a fast second unfinished supply depot down to block the ramp so the scouting probe can't get in, and thus has to guess entirely what terran is doing based on a stalker/zealot poke until an observer is out? Meanwhile, Terran can be doing 6 different builds easily, and by the time you scout it, it's quite late to make any significant changes to your build, and you can be in a lot of trouble. It's especially fun when you don't all-in and find out later he went triple orbital and you're super far behind because you played as safe as possible before your observer got there to make sure you'd be prepared for a marine/scv all-in or something.
I thought there are tonnes of two base all in play that just basically kills any terran who went for a quick CC?
On February 19 2013 15:18 iEchoic wrote: It seems to be a rock-paper-scissors game at this point, where if you guess the allin, you win, and if you don't, you lose.
Lol, and isn't that the point of an allin ? You wanna just be safe vs allins going standard macro build, that's funny.
No, the point is that both players should have the opportunity to out-control the other to win. However, when you have to defend against 6 types of allins and several of them require vastly different responses and cannot be reliably scouted, it becomes more of rock-paper-scissors where the allin is awful if you guess the right one and unstoppable if you guess the wrong one. Prior to hots, this response didn't exist, because oracles didn't exist.
If you expect oracles in your main, and put 5 marines there or build an ebay and a turret, you're now very weak to void ray allins, and there is no way to reliably scout the difference.
In what way shape or form is this different from how Protoss has to react to a terran who gets a fast second unfinished supply depot down to block the ramp so the scouting probe can't get in, and thus has to guess entirely what terran is doing based on a stalker/zealot poke until an observer is out? Meanwhile, Terran can be doing 6 different builds easily, and by the time you scout it, it's quite late to make any significant changes to your build, and you can be in a lot of trouble. It's especially fun when you don't all-in and find out later he went triple orbital and you're super far behind because you played as safe as possible before your observer got there to make sure you'd be prepared for a marine/scv all-in or something.
We get free hallucination and can scout everything; terran has to get lucky with scans or just use a lot of them. Also, scans won't detect proxy stargates, which are part of the all-in list.
On February 19 2013 15:18 iEchoic wrote: It seems to be a rock-paper-scissors game at this point, where if you guess the allin, you win, and if you don't, you lose.
Lol, and isn't that the point of an allin ? You wanna just be safe vs allins going standard macro build, that's funny.
No, the point is that both players should have the opportunity to out-control the other to win. However, when you have to defend against 6 types of allins and several of them require vastly different responses and cannot be reliably scouted, it becomes more of rock-paper-scissors where the allin is awful if you guess the right one and unstoppable if you guess the wrong one. Prior to hots, this response didn't exist, because oracles didn't exist.
If you expect oracles in your main, and put 5 marines there or build an ebay and a turret, you're now very weak to void ray allins, and there is no way to reliably scout the difference.
How about, map control, scans, towers etc. There is plenty of ways to scout. You could simply do an aggressive opener yourself because most aggressive T openers involved decimating mineral lines. So do that, pull all SCVS to hold. Win.
In response to all ins, i feel reapers can perform a decent job at scouting as a part of a rax into CC opening. However, it will still be difficult to stop a proxy robo/sgate all in because T will also have to deal with the MSC which is an added threat through dps and time warp. I feel that with VRs, a 111 follow up is decent, provided the T is walled in and has not committed into too many scv production as a part of the expo build. Vikings do okay through kiting and repair. At some point though, if P control is great, the overcharge ability will literally rip through bunkers and vikings. I've only managed to defend the said attack several times and each with three high ground bunkers with a reactored rax constantly pumping marines.
The oracle is now such an unoriginal, boring unit. Entomb was 10x more interesting than the oracles current spell, and didn't overlap with the phoenix either. When the community said make the oracle more exciting, they didn't mean make it 10x more generic and less interesting. The game developers just do not know what they're doing.
On February 19 2013 15:18 iEchoic wrote: It seems to be a rock-paper-scissors game at this point, where if you guess the allin, you win, and if you don't, you lose.
Lol, and isn't that the point of an allin ? You wanna just be safe vs allins going standard macro build, that's funny.
No, the point is that both players should have the opportunity to out-control the other to win. However, when you have to defend against 6 types of allins and several of them require vastly different responses and cannot be reliably scouted, it becomes more of rock-paper-scissors where the allin is awful if you guess the right one and unstoppable if you guess the wrong one. Prior to hots, this response didn't exist, because oracles didn't exist.
If you expect oracles in your main, and put 5 marines there or build an ebay and a turret, you're now very weak to void ray allins, and there is no way to reliably scout the difference.
In what way shape or form is this different from how Protoss has to react to a terran who gets a fast second unfinished supply depot down to block the ramp so the scouting probe can't get in, and thus has to guess entirely what terran is doing based on a stalker/zealot poke until an observer is out? Meanwhile, Terran can be doing 6 different builds easily, and by the time you scout it, it's quite late to make any significant changes to your build, and you can be in a lot of trouble. It's especially fun when you don't all-in and find out later he went triple orbital and you're super far behind because you played as safe as possible before your observer got there to make sure you'd be prepared for a marine/scv all-in or something.
We get free hallucination and can scout everything; terran has to get lucky with scans or just use a lot of them. Also, scans won't detect proxy stargates, which are part of the all-in list.
Hallucination frequently won't find well hidden proxies either, and it's hardly free, you need to make sentries and burn their energy, which is delaying tech and reducing force fields and guardian shields. I will agree that it isn't expensive though, but if you want enough hallucinations to consistently scout past terran anti-air you've really gotta make a lot of them.
As for scouting, have you considered making an early reaper? They've gotten super good at scouting, and you can run it all over the map to check for proxies or easily check into Toss's base.
On February 20 2013 01:06 Blacklizard wrote: It's hard for me to understand why scouting is so hard. The only way I feel early game TvP to be hard is if you avoid gas or play too greedy. As soon as you see 2 gas at the P, reduce your greed.
What if you do it like this:
Scout with SCV on 14 for most maps. You will see if double gas and count pylons. If he is hiding his 3rd pylon, then hidden tech. FIND IT with a reaper. It's fast and mobile.
So I think to be safe you always gas open, fast reaper, and you can see what is building in the stargate or other tech.
Obviously new maps may not be figured out yet as to where things are to be hidden, so you'll have to scout a lot. If you only scout near places, that would normally eliminate stargate play though, right? [Edit: Except oracle openings I'd say, so just eliminates voidray] And if he is going for a super fast loan oracle, he will not research warpgate or build a stalker very soon... that's a big tell. If he is going for a VR all in, check number of gateways... timings will be very different than for a blink build, right? A voidray costs 250 minerals, blink only 150 minerals.
-I'm assuming you are bouncing your reaper in and out to scout if nothing else. You can always proxy a barracks, fly it, and scout his main if you know he's putting tech there. It's got to be cheaper than using a scan, huh?
Alternatively... is he hiding tech in his main? If his stalker is late, it's an oracle likely. If he builds a sentry, it's going to be a very late whatever so you have more time to prepare.
Really, with Mules and the ability to expand safely inside your own base, Terran has really nice all-in defense... only the oracle requires special planning IMO. Blink stalker all ins aren't all that much scary in HOTS because if they go for the MsC variety, the MsC is about as expensive as a robo... so they basically get one more stalker out of the deal. Blink research is slower now, so... I just think it's very holdable. I can't remember the last time I saw a blink all-in kill a Terran in GSL... even MC failed miserably last time he tried it. Only the introduction of the oracle and confusion on the side of the Terran could make this build scary, IMO. Terran has new weapons with much faster reaper scouting, free siegemode, widowmines. And if you just go marine/marauder with bunkers you get a free win already if you knew it was coming.
So, in conclusion. What opening build do you propose that a Mech Terran has to use for your theory to work?
Since this is TL, I will assume what you mean is "you talk about building a reaper and maybe another barracks... I'd rather go pure mech, so I don't like your suggestion". If I am wrong, sorry. Either way, delay your mech by 50 gas for a reaper and be adaptable if you want to defend. So 1 gas, brx, factory would be the goal then adapt depending what you scout. If you feel threatened by blink stalker all-ins, I'd keep 2nd CC at top of ramp and build at least another brx with techl and make some marauders. At least one siege tank. Personally I think almost any combination of brx, factory, starport can do OK against blink stalkers as long as you have enough barracks units or a ton of widow mines on the right map.
Against Oracles, 1 viking mostly shuts it down, so if you suspect that I'd definitely consider getting out a starport. Vikings are not bad against voidrays either (if you guessed wrong or they switch it up) since you can often kite them behind the safety of enough bunkers. Widow mines do wonderfully against low numbers of oracles as well.
But basically, 1 base Terran beats 1 base Protoss if the Terran knows what is coming. I just don't see the big fuss, other than getting blind sided by oracles, which indeed hurts. If you play the Protoss side a few patches and maps back in WoL, you will feel the strain of guessing what combination of all-in the Terran is doing and struggle greatly to find a good composition. Terran has Mules and floating command centers, so you have a decent amount of leeway IF you see something coming. But Terran can often see if P gets 2nd gas early, hides 3rd pylon, or expands to natural with an SCV, which is obviously a huge tell in any of those cases.
On February 19 2013 16:17 Cloudshade wrote: Honestly, if you're getting 2 widowmines against double gas openers you should be fine....oracles die to widow mines 1 shot and as long as you make 1 bunker/marines behind it you should be able to hold...but the key is scouting whether they expoed or not...and as for overproducing...you should prolly scout with scvs...if you really don't know his comp then you're going to have to scan....in the case where they all in just pull back up your ramp and make another bunker (should be common sense for a high master terran) if in the case you went gasless expo well turret in combination with marine micro while getting a viking out should be decent against void ray all ins
And then they blink stalker allin instead and you die because you have 4 useless mines.
On February 20 2013 02:55 osiris17 wrote: The oracle is now such an unoriginal, boring unit. Entomb was 10x more interesting than the oracles current spell, and didn't overlap with the phoenix either. When the community said make the oracle more exciting, they didn't mean make it 10x more generic and less interesting. The game developers just do not know what they're doing.
Pointing and casting on minerals? How is that interesting? There are more choices with the new oracle like when to activate the attack, trying to avoid widow mines , gives protoss flexibility due to detection, etc.
On February 20 2013 01:06 Blacklizard wrote: It's hard for me to understand why scouting is so hard. The only way I feel early game TvP to be hard is if you avoid gas or play too greedy. As soon as you see 2 gas at the P, reduce your greed.
What if you do it like this:
Scout with SCV on 14 for most maps. You will see if double gas and count pylons. If he is hiding his 3rd pylon, then hidden tech. FIND IT with a reaper. It's fast and mobile.
So I think to be safe you always gas open, fast reaper, and you can see what is building in the stargate or other tech.
Obviously new maps may not be figured out yet as to where things are to be hidden, so you'll have to scout a lot. If you only scout near places, that would normally eliminate stargate play though, right? [Edit: Except oracle openings I'd say, so just eliminates voidray] And if he is going for a super fast loan oracle, he will not research warpgate or build a stalker very soon... that's a big tell. If he is going for a VR all in, check number of gateways... timings will be very different than for a blink build, right? A voidray costs 250 minerals, blink only 150 minerals.
-I'm assuming you are bouncing your reaper in and out to scout if nothing else. You can always proxy a barracks, fly it, and scout his main if you know he's putting tech there. It's got to be cheaper than using a scan, huh?
Alternatively... is he hiding tech in his main? If his stalker is late, it's an oracle likely. If he builds a sentry, it's going to be a very late whatever so you have more time to prepare.
Really, with Mules and the ability to expand safely inside your own base, Terran has really nice all-in defense... only the oracle requires special planning IMO. Blink stalker all ins aren't all that much scary in HOTS because if they go for the MsC variety, the MsC is about as expensive as a robo... so they basically get one more stalker out of the deal. Blink research is slower now, so... I just think it's very holdable. I can't remember the last time I saw a blink all-in kill a Terran in GSL... even MC failed miserably last time he tried it. Only the introduction of the oracle and confusion on the side of the Terran could make this build scary, IMO. Terran has new weapons with much faster reaper scouting, free siegemode, widowmines. And if you just go marine/marauder with bunkers you get a free win already if you knew it was coming.
So, in conclusion. What opening build do you propose that a Mech Terran has to use for your theory to work?
Since this is TL, I will assume what you mean is "you talk about building a reaper and maybe another barracks... I'd rather go pure mech, so I don't like your suggestion". If I am wrong, sorry. Either way, delay your mech by 50 gas for a reaper and be adaptable if you want to defend. So 1 gas, brx, factory would be the goal then adapt depending what you scout. If you feel threatened by blink stalker all-ins, I'd keep 2nd CC at top of ramp and build at least another brx with techl and make some marauders. At least one siege tank. Personally I think almost any combination of brx, factory, starport can do OK against blink stalkers as long as you have enough barracks units or a ton of widow mines on the right map.
Against Oracles, 1 viking mostly shuts it down, so if you suspect that I'd definitely consider getting out a starport. Vikings are not bad against voidrays either (if you guessed wrong or they switch it up) since you can often kite them behind the safety of enough bunkers. Widow mines do wonderfully against low numbers of oracles as well.
But basically, 1 base Terran beats 1 base Protoss if the Terran knows what is coming. I just don't see the big fuss, other than getting blind sided by oracles, which indeed hurts. If you play the Protoss side a few patches and maps back in WoL, you will feel the strain of guessing what combination of all-in the Terran is doing and struggle greatly to find a good composition. Terran has Mules and floating command centers, so you have a decent amount of leeway IF you see something coming. But Terran can often see if P gets 2nd gas early, hides 3rd pylon, or expands to natural with an SCV, which is obviously a huge tell in any of those cases.
I always play bio in every MU and it has served me well as i become a Masters WoL and Hots player. I asked for a BO that could stop all cheese from a Toss while still being flexible enough to play standerd to test your knowledge about Terran. Because i think your theory sounds nice, in a good way. But without a way to make it real and practical, it won't ever hold up in a game. We use BO's and If > Then scenario's to test the theory. I personally think that you are not experienced with Terran.
I had my doubts earlier because you make the reaper sound like a unit that will scout without fail, which to my knowledge and experience has never been the case. I'm also doubting your knowledge about Terran because you fail to give the simplest BO.
If you can come up with a nice BO, you are breaking new grounds, even if you think its "common knowledge". No Terran that i know has figured it out. If you do, i'm eager to learn what you know. Maybe share a couple of replay's? If you could do that, there is no need for a BO.
On February 19 2013 16:17 Cloudshade wrote: Honestly, if you're getting 2 widowmines against double gas openers you should be fine....oracles die to widow mines 1 shot and as long as you make 1 bunker/marines behind it you should be able to hold...but the key is scouting whether they expoed or not...and as for overproducing...you should prolly scout with scvs...if you really don't know his comp then you're going to have to scan....in the case where they all in just pull back up your ramp and make another bunker (should be common sense for a high master terran) if in the case you went gasless expo well turret in combination with marine micro while getting a viking out should be decent against void ray all ins
Blink stalker allin hard-counters the 2x widow mine defense (especially if they do it with an obs instead of a MSC). It is indistinguishable from any other opening if they proxy it. It does work vs oracles, though - but part of the issue here is that it's very hard to make a universal defense based on reliable scouting information.
I wanted to show how I adapt to the blink stalker all in with this opening,
I open up 1 widow mine like normal, scan see twilight council (seeing stalker count shows this as well) and prepare for blink stalker or dt. (which is why I drop the starport for raven) When I notice his stalker count I know he's going blink so I prepare accordingly. I even expand in my own base and before he gets his natural throw down a 3rd cc.
On February 20 2013 01:06 Blacklizard wrote: It's hard for me to understand why scouting is so hard. The only way I feel early game TvP to be hard is if you avoid gas or play too greedy. As soon as you see 2 gas at the P, reduce your greed.
What if you do it like this:
Scout with SCV on 14 for most maps. You will see if double gas and count pylons. If he is hiding his 3rd pylon, then hidden tech. FIND IT with a reaper. It's fast and mobile.
So I think to be safe you always gas open, fast reaper, and you can see what is building in the stargate or other tech.
Obviously new maps may not be figured out yet as to where things are to be hidden, so you'll have to scout a lot. If you only scout near places, that would normally eliminate stargate play though, right? [Edit: Except oracle openings I'd say, so just eliminates voidray] And if he is going for a super fast loan oracle, he will not research warpgate or build a stalker very soon... that's a big tell. If he is going for a VR all in, check number of gateways... timings will be very different than for a blink build, right? A voidray costs 250 minerals, blink only 150 minerals.
-I'm assuming you are bouncing your reaper in and out to scout if nothing else. You can always proxy a barracks, fly it, and scout his main if you know he's putting tech there. It's got to be cheaper than using a scan, huh?
Alternatively... is he hiding tech in his main? If his stalker is late, it's an oracle likely. If he builds a sentry, it's going to be a very late whatever so you have more time to prepare.
Really, with Mules and the ability to expand safely inside your own base, Terran has really nice all-in defense... only the oracle requires special planning IMO. Blink stalker all ins aren't all that much scary in HOTS because if they go for the MsC variety, the MsC is about as expensive as a robo... so they basically get one more stalker out of the deal. Blink research is slower now, so... I just think it's very holdable. I can't remember the last time I saw a blink all-in kill a Terran in GSL... even MC failed miserably last time he tried it. Only the introduction of the oracle and confusion on the side of the Terran could make this build scary, IMO. Terran has new weapons with much faster reaper scouting, free siegemode, widowmines. And if you just go marine/marauder with bunkers you get a free win already if you knew it was coming.
So, in conclusion. What opening build do you propose that a Mech Terran has to use for your theory to work?
Since this is TL, I will assume what you mean is "you talk about building a reaper and maybe another barracks... I'd rather go pure mech, so I don't like your suggestion". If I am wrong, sorry. Either way, delay your mech by 50 gas for a reaper and be adaptable if you want to defend. So 1 gas, brx, factory would be the goal then adapt depending what you scout. If you feel threatened by blink stalker all-ins, I'd keep 2nd CC at top of ramp and build at least another brx with techl and make some marauders. At least one siege tank. Personally I think almost any combination of brx, factory, starport can do OK against blink stalkers as long as you have enough barracks units or a ton of widow mines on the right map.
Against Oracles, 1 viking mostly shuts it down, so if you suspect that I'd definitely consider getting out a starport. Vikings are not bad against voidrays either (if you guessed wrong or they switch it up) since you can often kite them behind the safety of enough bunkers. Widow mines do wonderfully against low numbers of oracles as well.
But basically, 1 base Terran beats 1 base Protoss if the Terran knows what is coming. I just don't see the big fuss, other than getting blind sided by oracles, which indeed hurts. If you play the Protoss side a few patches and maps back in WoL, you will feel the strain of guessing what combination of all-in the Terran is doing and struggle greatly to find a good composition. Terran has Mules and floating command centers, so you have a decent amount of leeway IF you see something coming. But Terran can often see if P gets 2nd gas early, hides 3rd pylon, or expands to natural with an SCV, which is obviously a huge tell in any of those cases.
I always play bio in every MU and it has served me well as i become a Masters WoL and Hots player. I asked for a BO that could stop all cheese from a Toss while still being flexible enough to play standerd to test your knowledge about Terran. Because i think your theory sounds nice, in a good way. But without a way to make it real and practical, it won't ever hold up in a game. We use BO's and If > Then scenario's to test the theory. I personally think that you are not experienced with Terran.
I had my doubts earlier because you make the reaper sound like a unit that will scout without fail, which to my knowledge and experience has never been the case. I'm also doubting your knowledge about Terran because you fail to give the simplest BO.
If you can come up with a nice BO, you are breaking new grounds, even if you think its "common knowledge". No Terran that i know has figured it out. If you do, i'm eager to learn what you know. Maybe share a couple of replay's? If you could do that, there is no need for a BO.
Fair enough argument - I won't fault you for wanting something concrete. If you want that, go with a GM Terran like HTOMario... he obviously has a nice build and has had success.
To defend my position:
1. I don't have as much experience with Terran lately.
2. I personally don't like to quote exact build orders this early because there is no way they are going to be right (this is not a slam against HTOMario, I like his recent thread quite a bit). For me personally, I'd rather pick something close, test it, stay flexible if you are trying to deal with multiple types of all-ins is the best way IMO. Slowly adjust it over time after you see what it's weaknesses are, which all-ins fade away, etc. My point was that any gas opening should lead to some decent abilities to defend. And mostly scouting is what the problem is, since identifying WHAT all-in is coming was the main problem of this thread, I believe.
3. Basing what I know all-ins to have been like in WoL (where I had a decent amount of Terran experience the first year), I just don't think Protoss all-ins were very scary... so I don't think the new ones are that much worse. The oracle is the big difference here for me now. From the P side, I can see a slip up from T costing them a ton of workers. Voidray all-in... too early to tell, but probably not that bad. We can compare it to the old maps where charging up on nearby rocks allowed it to be charged coming in. As I recall, 111 builds defended it pretty well once they saw what was coming.
The meta has shifted and the 1 rax FE --> 2 more rax + 2 gas isn't nearly as solid. You have to split up your marines to account for MSC or Oracle, and it leaves you much more vulnerable to any attack.
I think even if you still go bio, you need to open up with gas and some 1/1/1 with the CC getting thrown down in there somewhere. Rush either viking or tank and hope you guess right.
On February 20 2013 01:06 Blacklizard wrote: It's hard for me to understand why scouting is so hard. The only way I feel early game TvP to be hard is if you avoid gas or play too greedy. As soon as you see 2 gas at the P, reduce your greed.
What if you do it like this:
Scout with SCV on 14 for most maps. You will see if double gas and count pylons. If he is hiding his 3rd pylon, then hidden tech. FIND IT with a reaper. It's fast and mobile.
So I think to be safe you always gas open, fast reaper, and you can see what is building in the stargate or other tech.
Obviously new maps may not be figured out yet as to where things are to be hidden, so you'll have to scout a lot. If you only scout near places, that would normally eliminate stargate play though, right? [Edit: Except oracle openings I'd say, so just eliminates voidray] And if he is going for a super fast loan oracle, he will not research warpgate or build a stalker very soon... that's a big tell. If he is going for a VR all in, check number of gateways... timings will be very different than for a blink build, right? A voidray costs 250 minerals, blink only 150 minerals.
-I'm assuming you are bouncing your reaper in and out to scout if nothing else. You can always proxy a barracks, fly it, and scout his main if you know he's putting tech there. It's got to be cheaper than using a scan, huh?
Alternatively... is he hiding tech in his main? If his stalker is late, it's an oracle likely. If he builds a sentry, it's going to be a very late whatever so you have more time to prepare.
Really, with Mules and the ability to expand safely inside your own base, Terran has really nice all-in defense... only the oracle requires special planning IMO. Blink stalker all ins aren't all that much scary in HOTS because if they go for the MsC variety, the MsC is about as expensive as a robo... so they basically get one more stalker out of the deal. Blink research is slower now, so... I just think it's very holdable. I can't remember the last time I saw a blink all-in kill a Terran in GSL... even MC failed miserably last time he tried it. Only the introduction of the oracle and confusion on the side of the Terran could make this build scary, IMO. Terran has new weapons with much faster reaper scouting, free siegemode, widowmines. And if you just go marine/marauder with bunkers you get a free win already if you knew it was coming.
So, in conclusion. What opening build do you propose that a Mech Terran has to use for your theory to work?
Since this is TL, I will assume what you mean is "you talk about building a reaper and maybe another barracks... I'd rather go pure mech, so I don't like your suggestion". If I am wrong, sorry. Either way, delay your mech by 50 gas for a reaper and be adaptable if you want to defend. So 1 gas, brx, factory would be the goal then adapt depending what you scout. If you feel threatened by blink stalker all-ins, I'd keep 2nd CC at top of ramp and build at least another brx with techl and make some marauders. At least one siege tank. Personally I think almost any combination of brx, factory, starport can do OK against blink stalkers as long as you have enough barracks units or a ton of widow mines on the right map.
Against Oracles, 1 viking mostly shuts it down, so if you suspect that I'd definitely consider getting out a starport. Vikings are not bad against voidrays either (if you guessed wrong or they switch it up) since you can often kite them behind the safety of enough bunkers. Widow mines do wonderfully against low numbers of oracles as well.
But basically, 1 base Terran beats 1 base Protoss if the Terran knows what is coming. I just don't see the big fuss, other than getting blind sided by oracles, which indeed hurts. If you play the Protoss side a few patches and maps back in WoL, you will feel the strain of guessing what combination of all-in the Terran is doing and struggle greatly to find a good composition. Terran has Mules and floating command centers, so you have a decent amount of leeway IF you see something coming. But Terran can often see if P gets 2nd gas early, hides 3rd pylon, or expands to natural with an SCV, which is obviously a huge tell in any of those cases.
I always play bio in every MU and it has served me well as i become a Masters WoL and Hots player. I asked for a BO that could stop all cheese from a Toss while still being flexible enough to play standerd to test your knowledge about Terran. Because i think your theory sounds nice, in a good way. But without a way to make it real and practical, it won't ever hold up in a game. We use BO's and If > Then scenario's to test the theory. I personally think that you are not experienced with Terran.
I had my doubts earlier because you make the reaper sound like a unit that will scout without fail, which to my knowledge and experience has never been the case. I'm also doubting your knowledge about Terran because you fail to give the simplest BO.
If you can come up with a nice BO, you are breaking new grounds, even if you think its "common knowledge". No Terran that i know has figured it out. If you do, i'm eager to learn what you know. Maybe share a couple of replay's? If you could do that, there is no need for a BO.
Fair enough argument - I won't fault you for wanting something concrete. If you want that, go with a GM Terran like HTOMario... he obviously has a nice build and has had success.
To defend my position:
1. I don't have as much experience with Terran lately.
2. I personally don't like to quote exact build orders this early because there is no way they are going to be right (this is not a slam against HTOMario, I like his recent thread quite a bit). For me personally, I'd rather pick something close, test it, stay flexible if you are trying to deal with multiple types of all-ins is the best way IMO. Slowly adjust it over time after you see what it's weaknesses are, which all-ins fade away, etc. My point was that any gas opening should lead to some decent abilities to defend. And mostly scouting is what the problem is, since identifying WHAT all-in is coming was the main problem of this thread, I believe.
3. Basing what I know all-ins to have been like in WoL (where I had a decent amount of Terran experience the first year), I just don't think Protoss all-ins were very scary... so I don't think the new ones are that much worse. The oracle is the big difference here for me now. From the P side, I can see a slip up from T costing them a ton of workers. Voidray all-in... too early to tell, but probably not that bad. We can compare it to the old maps where charging up on nearby rocks allowed it to be charged coming in. As I recall, 111 builds defended it pretty well once they saw what was coming.
Trust me, they are more effective. I definitely think TvP is the most changed MU for terran in hots, and mostly because of the threat of MSC and stargate units split your forces.
I love how this is a complete role reversal from WoL. The entire time that game was out toss has been saying terran has too many options. We can't get enough information to stop from all of the different types of all ins and attacks that can happen. Terran said deal with it. Look what's happening now. Pretty good stuff.
On February 20 2013 08:35 Infernal_dream wrote: I love how this is a complete role reversal from WoL. The entire time that game was out toss has been saying terran has too many options. We can't get enough information to stop from all of the different types of all ins and attacks that can happen. Terran said deal with it. Look what's happening now. Pretty good stuff.
I actually like this, now if only Terran could get some reversals to restore their viability, perhaps something like Rax before depot or restoring snipe to something viable (less damage to massive instead of being an anti caster). Then maybe Zerg could get some slight buffs.
It's nice having a game where each race has many different options instead of being pigeon holed into certain strats. I think it goes without saying that the last 6 months of WOL was pretty lackluster compared to a year ago. I hope HOTS doesn't fall into the same trap.
On February 19 2013 16:17 Cloudshade wrote: Honestly, if you're getting 2 widowmines against double gas openers you should be fine....oracles die to widow mines 1 shot and as long as you make 1 bunker/marines behind it you should be able to hold...but the key is scouting whether they expoed or not...and as for overproducing...you should prolly scout with scvs...if you really don't know his comp then you're going to have to scan....in the case where they all in just pull back up your ramp and make another bunker (should be common sense for a high master terran) if in the case you went gasless expo well turret in combination with marine micro while getting a viking out should be decent against void ray all ins
Blink stalker allin hard-counters the 2x widow mine defense (especially if they do it with an obs instead of a MSC). It is indistinguishable from any other opening if they proxy it. It does work vs oracles, though - but part of the issue here is that it's very hard to make a universal defense based on reliable scouting information.
blink stalkers hit quite late now...almost at around 8 minutes...if you scouted you see no expo from toss why not just pull all scvs back into your main and make more bunkers? realistically, as toss in WoL you had to go super defensive and constantly scout for what type of all in terran is going..its the same for Terran in HoTS...there was no DEFINED hold against all in builds terran did...its just if you scout all in properly and make the right units...and as terran you have the luxury of making bunkers....so properly placed bunkers and pulling back your EXPO while teching up to medivacs has ALWAYS been the solution the toss all ins....
On February 19 2013 16:17 Cloudshade wrote: Honestly, if you're getting 2 widowmines against double gas openers you should be fine....oracles die to widow mines 1 shot and as long as you make 1 bunker/marines behind it you should be able to hold...but the key is scouting whether they expoed or not...and as for overproducing...you should prolly scout with scvs...if you really don't know his comp then you're going to have to scan....in the case where they all in just pull back up your ramp and make another bunker (should be common sense for a high master terran) if in the case you went gasless expo well turret in combination with marine micro while getting a viking out should be decent against void ray all ins
Blink stalker allin hard-counters the 2x widow mine defense (especially if they do it with an obs instead of a MSC). It is indistinguishable from any other opening if they proxy it. It does work vs oracles, though - but part of the issue here is that it's very hard to make a universal defense based on reliable scouting information.
I wanted to show how I adapt to the blink stalker all in with this opening,
I open up 1 widow mine like normal, scan see twilight council (seeing stalker count shows this as well) and prepare for blink stalker or dt. (which is why I drop the starport for raven) When I notice his stalker count I know he's going blink so I prepare accordingly. I even expand in my own base and before he gets his natural throw down a 3rd cc.
Thanks for posting a replay (more than most people do when making a claim) - however, you can't rely on scanning to find a twilight council, lots of players proxy it. That's the big issue, is that these openings are indistinguishable.
On February 19 2013 16:17 Cloudshade wrote: Honestly, if you're getting 2 widowmines against double gas openers you should be fine....oracles die to widow mines 1 shot and as long as you make 1 bunker/marines behind it you should be able to hold...but the key is scouting whether they expoed or not...and as for overproducing...you should prolly scout with scvs...if you really don't know his comp then you're going to have to scan....in the case where they all in just pull back up your ramp and make another bunker (should be common sense for a high master terran) if in the case you went gasless expo well turret in combination with marine micro while getting a viking out should be decent against void ray all ins
Blink stalker allin hard-counters the 2x widow mine defense (especially if they do it with an obs instead of a MSC). It is indistinguishable from any other opening if they proxy it. It does work vs oracles, though - but part of the issue here is that it's very hard to make a universal defense based on reliable scouting information.
I wanted to show how I adapt to the blink stalker all in with this opening,
I open up 1 widow mine like normal, scan see twilight council (seeing stalker count shows this as well) and prepare for blink stalker or dt. (which is why I drop the starport for raven) When I notice his stalker count I know he's going blink so I prepare accordingly. I even expand in my own base and before he gets his natural throw down a 3rd cc.
Thanks for posting a replay (more than most people do when making a claim) - however, you can't rely on scanning to find a twilight council, lots of players proxy it. That's the big issue, is that these openings are indistinguishable.
It's true you can't always get lucky, but finding the gateways and seeing the count or suiciding a unit into his army can give you a good sense of what might happen. If I even sniff blink stalker all in or DT I turtle up pretty hard.
From what I have gathered out of this thread and from PvT matches against teammates the issue seems to be the scouting. I think it's just a completely new concept for many terrans that they actually need to scout properly or lose to an all-in like it was with PvP during all of WoL. I can see where the confusion is coming from and why it takes time to adjust to the new way of playing.
Blacklizard has suggested reaper as a scouting tool and I completely agree with him. The terrans of my team have started to almost always open with a fast gas + reaper. The reaper can confirm the amount of gases that the protoss is actually mining, check the base for tech and if you see him skip his stalker you can punish him. Depending on whether you want to go bio or mech you can even proxy the barracks and go up to 3 reaper to force even more stalkers. Where a protoss is placing his pylons is a great indicator for scans aswell. Check for the amount of pylons. If one is missing, search for proxy or hidden tech. If you see that he is not expanding don't build your CC on the low ground.
A fair amount of those new all-ins are strong because terrans are used to playing extremely greedy and often skip the scouting entirely.
From my own experience I usually hit between 7 and 7:30 with my blink. I expand behind it though, so not really an all-in... When my enemy is going for bio play I always try to snipe tech labs researching combat shields or stim to delay his push. Try to place your barracks as far away from the cliff as possible if that is happening to you. Protoss players learned to properly place their tech structures in safe locations the hard way during the last 2 1/2 years.
Widowmines are another great tool at stopping all-ins aswell. A well placed widowmine completely denies an oracle harass. The enemy won't see the texture of the burrowed widowmine if you burrow it on top of a lowered supply depot. That's a great way of luring him into a false sense of security.
TvP, or PvT, is imho the matchup with the most drastic changes from WoL to HotS. Changes require time to adapt to it and require a fair amount of learning. Until you or other people figure out just how greedy you can play while also being safe in the early game it is always your best bet to scout properly if you don't know what exactly is going on. There is no such thing as "the bomber build" for HotS yet.
Open with Rax (3 Marines then Reactor) -> Factory (1 Hellion for scouting purposes).
This lines up perfectly for 3 Marines, 1 Hellion, 2 Mines as early as possible and gives you chance to scout whole map with Hellion, check his natural, poke in, or at least find proxy tech on most common places.
Then you can follow with CC if you see Nexus, or you can go for quick Ebay/Armory, or additional Factory/Starport. Actually, does Thor pop out fast enough to stop Voidray? I'm not sure, but I don't think so.
You can go basically anything from here. But 3 Marines in my experience are minimum to fight off MsC and Stalker poke. That single Hellion is useful not only for scouting, but also for fighting gateway units, as it can be repaired forever.
Watch from 5 minutes to 20 minutes at the least. Shows reaper openings and things like fast widow mine = total oracle shutdown to delayed widow mine, run away workes, into viking widow mine to slow down oracles. Terran has the least problems dealing with Oracles if you suspect them, so it's all about scouting and knowing what is coming.
i always tought mech is hardcounter to oracle. mines blindkill them 1hit, on mid/low master no chance with oracle vs mech terrans ... EVERY terran should open 1 reaper ... free not deniable scout that tells you always exactly what the enemy does
On February 20 2013 01:06 Blacklizard wrote: It's hard for me to understand why scouting is so hard. The only way I feel early game TvP to be hard is if you avoid gas or play too greedy. As soon as you see 2 gas at the P, reduce your greed.
What if you do it like this:
Scout with SCV on 14 for most maps. You will see if double gas and count pylons. If he is hiding his 3rd pylon, then hidden tech. FIND IT with a reaper. It's fast and mobile.
So I think to be safe you always gas open, fast reaper, and you can see what is building in the stargate or other tech.
Obviously new maps may not be figured out yet as to where things are to be hidden, so you'll have to scout a lot. If you only scout near places, that would normally eliminate stargate play though, right? [Edit: Except oracle openings I'd say, so just eliminates voidray] And if he is going for a super fast loan oracle, he will not research warpgate or build a stalker very soon... that's a big tell. If he is going for a VR all in, check number of gateways... timings will be very different than for a blink build, right? A voidray costs 250 minerals, blink only 150 minerals.
-I'm assuming you are bouncing your reaper in and out to scout if nothing else. You can always proxy a barracks, fly it, and scout his main if you know he's putting tech there. It's got to be cheaper than using a scan, huh?
Alternatively... is he hiding tech in his main? If his stalker is late, it's an oracle likely. If he builds a sentry, it's going to be a very late whatever so you have more time to prepare.
Really, with Mules and the ability to expand safely inside your own base, Terran has really nice all-in defense... only the oracle requires special planning IMO. Blink stalker all ins aren't all that much scary in HOTS because if they go for the MsC variety, the MsC is about as expensive as a robo... so they basically get one more stalker out of the deal. Blink research is slower now, so... I just think it's very holdable. I can't remember the last time I saw a blink all-in kill a Terran in GSL... even MC failed miserably last time he tried it. Only the introduction of the oracle and confusion on the side of the Terran could make this build scary, IMO. Terran has new weapons with much faster reaper scouting, free siegemode, widowmines. And if you just go marine/marauder with bunkers you get a free win already if you knew it was coming.
So, in conclusion. What opening build do you propose that a Mech Terran has to use for your theory to work?
Since this is TL, I will assume what you mean is "you talk about building a reaper and maybe another barracks... I'd rather go pure mech, so I don't like your suggestion". If I am wrong, sorry. Either way, delay your mech by 50 gas for a reaper and be adaptable if you want to defend. So 1 gas, brx, factory would be the goal then adapt depending what you scout. If you feel threatened by blink stalker all-ins, I'd keep 2nd CC at top of ramp and build at least another brx with techl and make some marauders. At least one siege tank. Personally I think almost any combination of brx, factory, starport can do OK against blink stalkers as long as you have enough barracks units or a ton of widow mines on the right map.
Against Oracles, 1 viking mostly shuts it down, so if you suspect that I'd definitely consider getting out a starport. Vikings are not bad against voidrays either (if you guessed wrong or they switch it up) since you can often kite them behind the safety of enough bunkers. Widow mines do wonderfully against low numbers of oracles as well.
But basically, 1 base Terran beats 1 base Protoss if the Terran knows what is coming. I just don't see the big fuss, other than getting blind sided by oracles, which indeed hurts. If you play the Protoss side a few patches and maps back in WoL, you will feel the strain of guessing what combination of all-in the Terran is doing and struggle greatly to find a good composition. Terran has Mules and floating command centers, so you have a decent amount of leeway IF you see something coming. But Terran can often see if P gets 2nd gas early, hides 3rd pylon, or expands to natural with an SCV, which is obviously a huge tell in any of those cases.
I always play bio in every MU and it has served me well as i become a Masters WoL and Hots player. I asked for a BO that could stop all cheese from a Toss while still being flexible enough to play standerd to test your knowledge about Terran. Because i think your theory sounds nice, in a good way. But without a way to make it real and practical, it won't ever hold up in a game. We use BO's and If > Then scenario's to test the theory. I personally think that you are not experienced with Terran.
I had my doubts earlier because you make the reaper sound like a unit that will scout without fail, which to my knowledge and experience has never been the case. I'm also doubting your knowledge about Terran because you fail to give the simplest BO.
If you can come up with a nice BO, you are breaking new grounds, even if you think its "common knowledge". No Terran that i know has figured it out. If you do, i'm eager to learn what you know. Maybe share a couple of replay's? If you could do that, there is no need for a BO.
I just caught this fairly recent state of the game, and it sounds like QXC was heavily favoring opening reaper to scout gasses to detect what all-in is coming. I've always liked QXC's playstyle, and now I like him even more because he's showing this as a likely viable opening at high competition. He even goes to say he doesn't lose TvP in the beta almost ever.
He also says he likes to go mines afterward and then bio + hellbat later. And he backs up what others have mentioned that the one problem is if you go mines and they go blink + observer all-in... then you have to place your mines further back, etc. and it's harder. But the reaper is very good for scouting what is coming... I think it's the way to go.
Check it out from 46:50 onward:
Anyway, time will tell. It's early yet... many things to be explored. Also in the video, Artosis mentions that he stopped opening oracle against Terran because getting one shot from a mine was too punishing. I think other Protosses are leaning away from Oracle openings for the same reason.
On February 23 2013 05:49 CoR wrote: i always tought mech is hardcounter to oracle. mines blindkill them 1hit, on mid/low master no chance with oracle vs mech terrans ... EVERY terran should open 1 reaper ... free not deniable scout that tells you always exactly what the enemy does
A reaper is a FREE, 100% reliable unit now huh? I must've been missing some patch notes because the last time i checked reapers costed 50/50, so they require a gas opening and any unit, except workers + un upgraded zealots/zerglings could ever lose to 1 reaper. With micro you can even catch the reaper and kill it or just deny spaces in your base.
But hey, that was before, they where perfectly fine. Apparently they are now free and 100% reliable.
The single Oracle coming into your mineral line is like a banshee but seemingly deadlier. The one thing that I still struggle with is the Toss 2-gas opener. Because it immediately makes me think - OK, I have to prepare for something deadly enroute, to the tune of:
- Blink Stalker + MsC as mentioned earlier by several of you guys - DT's(of late they always hide their dark shrine, in some cases completely outside their base and some sneaky spot) - some form of gateway + robo or stargate
So I prepare with bunkers and so on, only to discover I've been completely and utterly tricked.
It was just a sentry expand, and I prepared in fear all for nothing, and fall behind.
Personally, as a Protoss player I think Oracles are going to be nerfed pretty hard. They're just way too good against Terran right now, and not because of the Oracle rush build, either.
Right now, it's perfectly viable to open 15 or 17 Nexus into Gate Core Stargate and pump Oracles. All the gas you would have been spending on Stalkers, Sentries, and Observers in WoL can go straight into Oracles. Why? Because they do >30 DPS to light units (Marines) and Zealots tank damage for Oracles just as well as they can tank damage for Stalkers. However, unlike Stalkers, Oracles keep up with kiting Marines due to their high speed and keep pushing in the damage. Not only do Oracles two shot Marines with a 0.86 weapon cooldown, they don't waste shots on the Medivacs either like Stalkers tend to do, which means the Terran bio blob starts losing DPS potential immediately. 4-5 Oracles plus some Zealots will absolutely annihilate any early bio pushes. Because of this ability to destroy early pushes, you can follow up by taking your third base at like 7 minutes in and there's very little the Terran can do to kill it or keep up with you.
In addition to destroying early pushes, the Oracles can also scout for AND kill any attempted drops. What are they going to drop on you? Marines? Hellions? Hellbats? The Oracles massacre all of these faster than Medivacs can unload them. They also force the Terran to waste resources on turrets in their base just because of the threat of having their workers annihilated.
Against Terran, this unit does everything. It detects, it denies drops, it denies early aggression, it scouts them, and it harasses their workers. If Terran goes mech, you already have the Stargate and are well on your way to the direct counter, Tempests. If Terran goes bio, you can just slap down a council and go for Templar tech and Charge. You'll be very, very surprised at how effectively a half-dozen Oracles and massed chargelots takes apart MMM. Terran has to be near maxed or have Ghosts or Vikings out to beat Chargelot/Oracle with bio, which gives you all the time you need to get HTs out.
Even heading into the late game, those Oracles you made remain useful. 4 Oracles can detect AND one-shot a Ghost that moves away from their main army to try and EMP your HTs. You can constantly reveal their army so you know exactly where they are and exactly how you need to position. Large lategame drops can be handled by simply sending over the Oracles and warping some units in. An Oracle can also single-handedly detect a Ghost that is nuking you AND kill that Ghost.
while climbing the ladder I thought oracles were really good pvt as well... once I hit master opponents it didn't do that much anymore. most terrans know how to deal with the initial harass, and after that you can shut it down with widow mines. I like phoenix openers much better pvt now when facing a gas opening. They don't get one shot by mines and can work around turrets much better with the 5 range. I like oracles later on for revelation. Oh that being said... if you think you can 1rax expand in hots, I'm still going to poop on your face with oracles and collect an easy win. - it will probably take a couple of months to figure out tvp, but it looks like there's a reasonable answer to all 1-base all-ins.
And if you have oracles snipe your ghosts late game then... idk what to tell you. That is amazing. I hope you're making this up.
On March 03 2013 20:18 Xequecal wrote: Personally, as a Protoss player I think Oracles are going to be nerfed pretty hard. They're just way too good against Terran right now, and not because of the Oracle rush build, either.
Right now, it's perfectly viable to open 15 or 17 Nexus into Gate Core Stargate and pump Oracles. All the gas you would have been spending on Stalkers, Sentries, and Observers in WoL can go straight into Oracles. Why? Because they do >30 DPS to light units (Marines) and Zealots tank damage for Oracles just as well as they can tank damage for Stalkers. However, unlike Stalkers, Oracles keep up with kiting Marines due to their high speed and keep pushing in the damage. Not only do Oracles two shot Marines with a 0.86 weapon cooldown, they don't waste shots on the Medivacs either like Stalkers tend to do, which means the Terran bio blob starts losing DPS potential immediately. 4-5 Oracles plus some Zealots will absolutely annihilate any early bio pushes. Because of this ability to destroy early pushes, you can follow up by taking your third base at like 7 minutes in and there's very little the Terran can do to kill it or keep up with you.
In addition to destroying early pushes, the Oracles can also scout for AND kill any attempted drops. What are they going to drop on you? Marines? Hellions? Hellbats? The Oracles massacre all of these faster than Medivacs can unload them. They also force the Terran to waste resources on turrets in their base just because of the threat of having their workers annihilated.
Against Terran, this unit does everything. It detects, it denies drops, it denies early aggression, it scouts them, and it harasses their workers. If Terran goes mech, you already have the Stargate and are well on your way to the direct counter, Tempests. If Terran goes bio, you can just slap down a council and go for Templar tech and Charge. You'll be very, very surprised at how effectively a half-dozen Oracles and massed chargelots takes apart MMM. Terran has to be near maxed or have Ghosts or Vikings out to beat Chargelot/Oracle with bio, which gives you all the time you need to get HTs out.
Even heading into the late game, those Oracles you made remain useful. 4 Oracles can detect AND one-shot a Ghost that moves away from their main army to try and EMP your HTs. You can constantly reveal their army so you know exactly where they are and exactly how you need to position. Large lategame drops can be handled by simply sending over the Oracles and warping some units in. An Oracle can also single-handedly detect a Ghost that is nuking you AND kill that Ghost.
I agree. Even when I've held off the Oracle they still use 2-3 of them for map control. I've even had situations where i unburrow 4 mines (2 at the main, 2 at the natural) thinking the push was "held off" only to have them come back mid-game and reharass the mineral line and devastate in seconds. So are you telling me im supposed to spend 300 minerals/100 gas and 8 supply just do defend in early game? Just seems as a mech player Oracles can keep map dominance too long through speed, damage and detection. I've had some opponents just go straight into airtoss (tempest) after they see ive invested so much in preventing the harass.
The only time i've had success is going gas first into 4 helion run-by at their main, into two windows mines while pumping marines. But some would say that's pretty all-in if they block off correctly. The topic is debatable.
On March 03 2013 20:18 Xequecal wrote: Personally, as a Protoss player I think Oracles are going to be nerfed pretty hard. They're just way too good against Terran right now, and not because of the Oracle rush build, either.
Right now, it's perfectly viable to open 15 or 17 Nexus into Gate Core Stargate and pump Oracles. All the gas you would have been spending on Stalkers, Sentries, and Observers in WoL can go straight into Oracles. Why? Because they do >30 DPS to light units (Marines) and Zealots tank damage for Oracles just as well as they can tank damage for Stalkers. However, unlike Stalkers, Oracles keep up with kiting Marines due to their high speed and keep pushing in the damage. Not only do Oracles two shot Marines with a 0.86 weapon cooldown, they don't waste shots on the Medivacs either like Stalkers tend to do, which means the Terran bio blob starts losing DPS potential immediately. 4-5 Oracles plus some Zealots will absolutely annihilate any early bio pushes. Because of this ability to destroy early pushes, you can follow up by taking your third base at like 7 minutes in and there's very little the Terran can do to kill it or keep up with you.
In addition to destroying early pushes, the Oracles can also scout for AND kill any attempted drops. What are they going to drop on you? Marines? Hellions? Hellbats? The Oracles massacre all of these faster than Medivacs can unload them. They also force the Terran to waste resources on turrets in their base just because of the threat of having their workers annihilated.
Against Terran, this unit does everything. It detects, it denies drops, it denies early aggression, it scouts them, and it harasses their workers. If Terran goes mech, you already have the Stargate and are well on your way to the direct counter, Tempests. If Terran goes bio, you can just slap down a council and go for Templar tech and Charge. You'll be very, very surprised at how effectively a half-dozen Oracles and massed chargelots takes apart MMM. Terran has to be near maxed or have Ghosts or Vikings out to beat Chargelot/Oracle with bio, which gives you all the time you need to get HTs out.
Even heading into the late game, those Oracles you made remain useful. 4 Oracles can detect AND one-shot a Ghost that moves away from their main army to try and EMP your HTs. You can constantly reveal their army so you know exactly where they are and exactly how you need to position. Large lategame drops can be handled by simply sending over the Oracles and warping some units in. An Oracle can also single-handedly detect a Ghost that is nuking you AND kill that Ghost.
I agree. Even when I've held off the Oracle they still use 2-3 of them for map control. I've even had situations where i unburrow 4 mines (2 at the main, 2 at the natural) thinking the push was "held off" only to have them come back mid-game and reharass the mineral line and devastate in seconds. So are you telling me im supposed to spend 300 minerals/100 gas and 8 supply just do defend in early game? Just seems as a mech player Oracles can keep map dominance too long through speed, damage and detection. I've had some opponents just go straight into airtoss (tempest) after they see ive invested so much in preventing the harass.
The only time i've had success is going gas first into 4 helion run-by at their main, into two windows mines while pumping marines. But some would say that's pretty all-in if they block off correctly. The topic is debatable.
the 2-3 Oracles are 6-8 supply and 300/300 or 450/450... you're only spending 300/100 on defense. Suck it.
On March 03 2013 20:18 Xequecal wrote: Personally, as a Protoss player I think Oracles are going to be nerfed pretty hard. They're just way too good against Terran right now, and not because of the Oracle rush build, either.
Right now, it's perfectly viable to open 15 or 17 Nexus into Gate Core Stargate and pump Oracles. All the gas you would have been spending on Stalkers, Sentries, and Observers in WoL can go straight into Oracles. Why? Because they do >30 DPS to light units (Marines) and Zealots tank damage for Oracles just as well as they can tank damage for Stalkers. However, unlike Stalkers, Oracles keep up with kiting Marines due to their high speed and keep pushing in the damage. Not only do Oracles two shot Marines with a 0.86 weapon cooldown, they don't waste shots on the Medivacs either like Stalkers tend to do, which means the Terran bio blob starts losing DPS potential immediately. 4-5 Oracles plus some Zealots will absolutely annihilate any early bio pushes. Because of this ability to destroy early pushes, you can follow up by taking your third base at like 7 minutes in and there's very little the Terran can do to kill it or keep up with you.
In addition to destroying early pushes, the Oracles can also scout for AND kill any attempted drops. What are they going to drop on you? Marines? Hellions? Hellbats? The Oracles massacre all of these faster than Medivacs can unload them. They also force the Terran to waste resources on turrets in their base just because of the threat of having their workers annihilated.
Against Terran, this unit does everything. It detects, it denies drops, it denies early aggression, it scouts them, and it harasses their workers. If Terran goes mech, you already have the Stargate and are well on your way to the direct counter, Tempests. If Terran goes bio, you can just slap down a council and go for Templar tech and Charge. You'll be very, very surprised at how effectively a half-dozen Oracles and massed chargelots takes apart MMM. Terran has to be near maxed or have Ghosts or Vikings out to beat Chargelot/Oracle with bio, which gives you all the time you need to get HTs out.
Even heading into the late game, those Oracles you made remain useful. 4 Oracles can detect AND one-shot a Ghost that moves away from their main army to try and EMP your HTs. You can constantly reveal their army so you know exactly where they are and exactly how you need to position. Large lategame drops can be handled by simply sending over the Oracles and warping some units in. An Oracle can also single-handedly detect a Ghost that is nuking you AND kill that Ghost.
I agree. Even when I've held off the Oracle they still use 2-3 of them for map control. I've even had situations where i unburrow 4 mines (2 at the main, 2 at the natural) thinking the push was "held off" only to have them come back mid-game and reharass the mineral line and devastate in seconds. So are you telling me im supposed to spend 300 minerals/100 gas and 8 supply just do defend in early game? Just seems as a mech player Oracles can keep map dominance too long through speed, damage and detection. I've had some opponents just go straight into airtoss (tempest) after they see ive invested so much in preventing the harass.
The only time i've had success is going gas first into 4 helion run-by at their main, into two windows mines while pumping marines. But some would say that's pretty all-in if they block off correctly. The topic is debatable.
the 2-3 Oracles are 6-8 supply and 300/300 or 450/450... you're only spending 300/100 on defense. Suck it.
You're comparing apples to oranges (i.e. Oracles to Window Mines?!!) while making a completely inflammatory statement. Please read what the units actually do before commenting.
From what I can tell, a lot of pro guys are (early game) going either widow mine or just 1 turret per mineral line when suspecting oracles. Oracles are like banshees in that they will do at least a little damage unless you overprepare... so the "correct" response is to prepare just enough and then never let your eye off your minimap.
For the mid and late game, when I play T I'd be willing to spend minerals on at least 2 turrets per base and have one viking on hotkey 0 or something to help come to the rescue in multiple ones fly in. Or maybe sensor tower if it's getting really hairy.
One of the most important things to protecting workers is to just high tail it out of there. Oracles get probably 1/3 the kills when workers are on the run and unless it's midgame their energy will run out fairly quickly. Obviously you want to try running before the oracles actually get the first attack off.
On March 03 2013 20:18 Xequecal wrote: Personally, as a Protoss player I think Oracles are going to be nerfed pretty hard. They're just way too good against Terran right now, and not because of the Oracle rush build, either.
Right now, it's perfectly viable to open 15 or 17 Nexus into Gate Core Stargate and pump Oracles. All the gas you would have been spending on Stalkers, Sentries, and Observers in WoL can go straight into Oracles. Why? Because they do >30 DPS to light units (Marines) and Zealots tank damage for Oracles just as well as they can tank damage for Stalkers. However, unlike Stalkers, Oracles keep up with kiting Marines due to their high speed and keep pushing in the damage. Not only do Oracles two shot Marines with a 0.86 weapon cooldown, they don't waste shots on the Medivacs either like Stalkers tend to do, which means the Terran bio blob starts losing DPS potential immediately. 4-5 Oracles plus some Zealots will absolutely annihilate any early bio pushes. Because of this ability to destroy early pushes, you can follow up by taking your third base at like 7 minutes in and there's very little the Terran can do to kill it or keep up with you.
In addition to destroying early pushes, the Oracles can also scout for AND kill any attempted drops. What are they going to drop on you? Marines? Hellions? Hellbats? The Oracles massacre all of these faster than Medivacs can unload them. They also force the Terran to waste resources on turrets in their base just because of the threat of having their workers annihilated.
Against Terran, this unit does everything. It detects, it denies drops, it denies early aggression, it scouts them, and it harasses their workers. If Terran goes mech, you already have the Stargate and are well on your way to the direct counter, Tempests. If Terran goes bio, you can just slap down a council and go for Templar tech and Charge. You'll be very, very surprised at how effectively a half-dozen Oracles and massed chargelots takes apart MMM. Terran has to be near maxed or have Ghosts or Vikings out to beat Chargelot/Oracle with bio, which gives you all the time you need to get HTs out.
Even heading into the late game, those Oracles you made remain useful. 4 Oracles can detect AND one-shot a Ghost that moves away from their main army to try and EMP your HTs. You can constantly reveal their army so you know exactly where they are and exactly how you need to position. Large lategame drops can be handled by simply sending over the Oracles and warping some units in. An Oracle can also single-handedly detect a Ghost that is nuking you AND kill that Ghost.
You make great points. I have had a bit of success with some of these tactics (like oracles + zealots vs marines) previously but never in close games so I wasn't sure if it was valid or not. It's all about the metagame of course and if the builds work out or not. Certainly Blizzard realized Protoss could never open stargate unless there was a way to deal with the stim medivac marine timing, so it cannot be coincidence that oracles are good against marines.
As for defense of drops, I think that's a pretty nice idea regardless. It could cause some cat and mouse with viking + medivac if Terran sees Protoss is on top of things with a spare oracle. Personally I don't know if it's broken to have better drop defense if medivacs keep the free speed boost. It probably works out nicely really. If terran sees an oracle sitting there waiting then I think it's pretty clear there is no need to try to drop... similar to if Terran sees 3 or 4 stalkers sitting waiting to snipe an incoming medivac. Stalkers cost more minerals, oracle costs more gas. Seems about right, especially since you can lead with a viking vs an oracle. The further out Protoss patrols an oracle the better the viking would be, even used for feints and whatnot.
Vs. nuking ghosts, that is a good idea. Maybe use 2 ghosts at a time, one to nuke and one to EMP the oracle. We're getting into heavy theorycrafting here, but why not it's fun. BTW, I'd rather see more active units (oracles) than loads of cannons into turtle defense.
Vs any cloaked ghost the P will still have to see the glimmer to know a ghost is there. T may want to cover ghosts in armies with vikings if they lead out front too much. Looks like 4 vikings will one shot an oracle, so I'm not sure that's a problem as vikings are in play half the time anyway.
Finally, you talk about wasted resources in turrets. Obviously nobody wants to build static defense, but sometimes it works out just fine. Really banshees do similarly to Protoss that oracles do to Terran, only terran has been going starport in standard builds for a long time such that a viking is not ever far off a normal build. I definitely understand the weirdness of the situation though because Terran hasn't been afraid of an air unit other than the broodlord for a long time. It is a very new and funky situation and will take a lot of testing to see if something is too strong or not.
I do keep going back to reavers being similar to oracles though... I played BW more heavily in the early days when things were different, but I'm willing to bet early game reaver vs. hydra play is slightly similar to how the oracle is going to play out. That is, if Zerg suspected an incoming reaver he could sit at the edge of his base and intercept with hydras. Or he could go for mutas. If protoss caught zerg unawares he could do pretty good damage, but otherwise not so much.
As for spending all gas on oracle and all minerals on zealots, two crazy ideas:
1. Viking + hellion is a direct army counter. Lead with vikings, you got it after that. Midgame? Hellbats work even better.
2. (More risky but just for fun) I wonder what would happen if Terran went all air. Complete theorycrafting, but build only enough vikings to kill any phoenix and the rest in banshees to take on the lower content of stalkers. It seems a lot easier to snipe oracles than observers since there is nowhere to hide. No detection = dead Protoss. Keep marines or hellions (mineral dump) way in the back and only use if oracles are mostly gone. The vikings could even land to suicide on newly warped in stalkers to keep the banshees in the air longer. It sounds insane, but 1 viking + 1 banshee is almost the gas cost of one oracle. It takes more than one stalker per banshee. With repair? Could it possibly work?
OMG, come on retail... I suddenly want to play on both sides of oracle games very much right now.
Ive had good success with reaper opening to 1/1/1 expand or fe. That reaper makes sure that things stay in the protoss base and you can scout relatively fast if theres a missing probe or that 3rd pylon.
However the problem lies with 2gas and scouting.. 2gas could mean anything from DTs, blink stalkers, or even a greedy gas opener while taking their expansion + denied scv scouting (this is where the reaper is useful). With T, you know what T will get if hes got 1 gas or gas first. All of those are predictable and be defended with easy as the defense required dont deviate too much from another compared to what T requires.
The thing I dont like about oracles is that they contain the T in the early/mid game where T has to somehow get an upper hand against the protoss. They dont have to be used for harass and instead force mines/turrets etc. If they skip this, they get punished so bad.
Any early timings dont work anymore thanks to nexus cannon + timewarp.. Protoss have it easy these days. Even the early oracles can be used effectively to defend against any sort of 1-1-1 attempts or early aggression with the gateway force.
On March 03 2013 12:22 D_K_night wrote: The single Oracle coming into your mineral line is like a banshee but seemingly deadlier. The one thing that I still struggle with is the Toss 2-gas opener. Because it immediately makes me think - OK, I have to prepare for something deadly enroute, to the tune of:
- Blink Stalker + MsC as mentioned earlier by several of you guys - DT's(of late they always hide their dark shrine, in some cases completely outside their base and some sneaky spot) - some form of gateway + robo or stargate
So I prepare with bunkers and so on, only to discover I've been completely and utterly tricked.
It was just a sentry expand, and I prepared in fear all for nothing, and fall behind.
Happened to me a few times. They can go absolutely greed mode where infact it might be the 6:00min oracle heading your way etc. Too much guessing game tbh.
Sorry, to necro this thread, but recently i have been struggling with the exact same problem as the OP. I open reaper expand TvP and want to go mech eventually, but proxy oracle usualy kills alot if they hit me early-- has there been made any progress in what people do to defend against oracles? I feel that once my reaper has scouted their main, and i send it to the obvious proxy spots, i need to start my response even before i get corfirmation.. any help?
The most important thing to look for once you've scouted double gas is the number of pylons in his base. I don't have the numbers on me, but learn the timings for when the second and third pylons usually go down and if it isn't in his base you can expect something to be proxied, witch is usually a stargate. Following this should give you a slightly earlier heads up that something is up.
I'll be honest and say i have no idea what the easiest way to get an acceptable defense is. However i know that you need 5 marines (in a clump!!!), a turret or a widow mine to deal with it. 4 marines wont cut it, 6 marines where 4 of them is in a clump and the remaining 2 are exiting the barack half a screen away wont do it either. If you do not have 5 marines clumped up do not engage the oracle. Treat it like a hellbat, run away from it until you have proper defenses. I can't guarantee you an elegant or effortless defense based on the above, however i can guarantee that you will never die or be set into an unwinable position if you just follow the above advice.
If you don't have your build down exactly you can hold this and my version is much more aggressive than a standard proxy stargate. Against what I do in those replays you need a bunker on top of your main ramp and a turret in your mineral line or else you won't have a good time.
EPT
