EPTIt seems that your link to download your replay pack doesn't work anymore! Is it possible to reupload it?
Thank you!
[G] TangSC's Drop-Style ZvP - Page 4
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MalditoKyo
France76 Posts
It seems that your link to download your replay pack doesn't work anymore! Is it possible to reupload it? Thank you! | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 02 2013 18:45 MalditoKyo wrote: Hello Tang! It seems that your link to download your replay pack doesn't work anymore! Is it possible to reupload it? Thank you! Thanks for the tip  will re-upload when I'm back home on the 4th or 5th. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 01 2013 03:14 Defenestrator wrote: I think if you go for drop play on 3base, it's best to do it after toss takes a 3rd/you have some time to establish a good eco first instead of sac'ing eco like this 2base build to do damage with the drop. The problem with drop off of 3base into a 2base toss is that your drop will hit during/after he's hitting you with a 2base allin, and you're going to most likely come out on the wrong end of that base trade. I would agree. If you want to do a delayed 3-hatch drop style, you're better off with something like Dimaga's Bane Rain: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346148 Another option is to do my opening, while starting a third before Zergling production (44~ supply, 7:30~). It delays the drop a bit, of course, but it also means that if you skip the Mutalisk transition and stay on 2-gas, you can move into Roaches much earlier - then you really only need to build about 16-18 Drones while executing the drop to reach full 3-base saturation to max with +1 speed Roaches. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 02 2013 18:45 MalditoKyo wrote: Hello Tang! It seems that your link to download your replay pack doesn't work anymore! Is it possible to reupload it? Thank you! It should work now, have tested it with a few friends and they can all open it. | ||
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ThePiedPiper
Canada102 Posts
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ThePiedPiper
Canada102 Posts
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beef666
New Zealand29 Posts
On January 06 2013 08:29 ThePiedPiper wrote: Except it doesn't counter 7gate, so I can only win vs macro toss Doesn't this build hit before/about the same time as a 7gate? | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 06 2013 19:19 beef666 wrote: Doesn't this build hit before/about the same time as a 7gate? Yeah it does. It's a weird situation, I think it's usually best to just commit to constant Ling/Baneling aggression in this scenario, because he'll likely pull his main army back to defend, but if he just runs 4-5 Zealots into your natural you'll have nothing to deal with it if you tech. Another option is spine/hydra while you drop, that works pretty well too especially if you get an evo or two in front of the spines to stop Zealots. | ||
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MalditoKyo
France76 Posts
So far so good with this strategy! I like the way protoss doesn't know what's coming! My only problem is the transition of it. Most of the time, protoss will just be like "screw that, let's all-in with all I got", but with this drop, my options are quite limited, ling/bane don't work well agains zealot and immo. I'll try your previous answer with spine/hydra! | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 07 2013 20:00 MalditoKyo wrote: Thank you very much Tang! So far so good with this strategy! I like the way protoss doesn't know what's coming! My only problem is the transition of it. Most of the time, protoss will just be like "screw that, let's all-in with all I got", but with this drop, my options are quite limited, ling/bane don't work well agains zealot and immo. I'll try your previous answer with spine/hydra! I put down a spire 99% of games while I drop, and get up to a total of 4 gas asap. Muta/Ling is so nice for counterattacks, especially with spines. You can even go Spire, and then put down a hydra den if he moves out right away (hydra den finishes faster). 2-base Hydra/Ling/Muta is incredibly strong assuming he doesn't have colossus. | ||
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Soicx
United Kingdom49 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 08 2013 01:18 Soicx wrote: I'd be interested to know how this build matches up against someone gate-core expoing rather than the standard FFE. I would imagine that it is pretty ineffective. And will give him a fairly large eco lead. having said that, the early speed is the proper response to that opening, and if he doesnt manage to scout your main it may catch him unawares. It can still work against like 1gate expand. The problem lies if he pressures you, because Zerg tends to drone to 40~ supply with this style and if he's moving out with like a sentry/stalker push at 7min or so, it turns into awkward base-trade situations and frantic spine crawler walls etc. It's not necessarily ineffective against gateway-first, but certainly not ideal. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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Soicx
United Kingdom49 Posts
On January 08 2013 03:51 TangSC wrote: It can still work against like 1gate expand. The problem lies if he pressures you, because Zerg tends to drone to 40~ supply with this style and if he's moving out with like a sentry/stalker push at 7min or so, it turns into awkward base-trade situations and frantic spine crawler walls etc. It's not necessarily ineffective against gateway-first, but certainly not ideal. I think the problems you'll have will run deeper than just a 7 minute pressure. Until speed finishes he's going to have total map control and can easily scout for the standard 3rd base timing. His transitions come with far more gateway units than a FFEing player. He's likely to be able to deny scouting of his tech choice unless you reveal your Overlord Speed early, in which case most intelligent players will assume drop play and start to prepare against it (or at least be more vigilant about looking at the minimap) so you're less likely to be successful if you attempt your drops. If you decide not to drop then you're playing a little from behind due to the investment in early Lair, Overlord Speed and Overlord drop. Worst case scenario is that he transitioned into stargate, in which case you're going to have real problems taking a 3rd base. Having said that, drop play is something that has been underused of late. Incorportating Speed and Drop into an early roach max will deal well with map design limiting the number of areas you can attack with your roaches. Baneling drops are obviously going to be very effective in combination with roach pressure. I wonder if you'd be better delaying the drop tech against a 1 gate expand build and then dropping if he takes his 3rd with his army. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On January 09 2013 00:44 Soicx wrote: I think the problems you'll have will run deeper than just a 7 minute pressure. Until speed finishes he's going to have total map control and can easily scout for the standard 3rd base timing. His transitions come with far more gateway units than a FFEing player. He's likely to be able to deny scouting of his tech choice unless you reveal your Overlord Speed early, in which case most intelligent players will assume drop play and start to prepare against it (or at least be more vigilant about looking at the minimap) so you're less likely to be successful if you attempt your drops. If you decide not to drop then you're playing a little from behind due to the investment in early Lair, Overlord Speed and Overlord drop. Worst case scenario is that he transitioned into stargate, in which case you're going to have real problems taking a 3rd base. Having said that, drop play is something that has been underused of late. Incorportating Speed and Drop into an early roach max will deal well with map design limiting the number of areas you can attack with your roaches. Baneling drops are obviously going to be very effective in combination with roach pressure. I wonder if you'd be better delaying the drop tech against a 1 gate expand build and then dropping if he takes his 3rd with his army. I agree with most of what you said here, except that the opening build order for this thread mentions a gas/pool start, which means the protoss is going to go home about 30 seconds before speed finishes. So the protoss's goal is to go home with his stalkers early, wall off his natural before the speedling timing, warp in a couple of sentries, and then tech when it's safe. So, often it's about hiding the scouting probe out on the map and then sneaking it to the third to see if it's there--that's not always possible for the protoss. Indeed, though, I definitely think the best tech path for 2base gateway FE against gas/pool 2base is to go stargate. Stargate lets me clear out overlords, fly over there and kill the queens, force antiair off a broke 2base zerg, and open up stargate+gateway attack timings against greedy play. So I would think a baneling/sling drop player would be trying his best to hide extra overlords on the map in corners where the phoenixes wouldn't check...but that's still hard to pull off vs 4 phoenix openings where the phoenixes are shown immediately because scouting is more important than scout denial against a 2base zerg who opened gas/pool. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 09 2013 00:44 Soicx wrote: I think the problems you'll have will run deeper than just a 7 minute pressure. Until speed finishes he's going to have total map control and can easily scout for the standard 3rd base timing. His transitions come with far more gateway units than a FFEing player. He's likely to be able to deny scouting of his tech choice unless you reveal your Overlord Speed early, in which case most intelligent players will assume drop play and start to prepare against it (or at least be more vigilant about looking at the minimap) so you're less likely to be successful if you attempt your drops. If you decide not to drop then you're playing a little from behind due to the investment in early Lair, Overlord Speed and Overlord drop. Worst case scenario is that he transitioned into stargate, in which case you're going to have real problems taking a 3rd base. Having said that, drop play is something that has been underused of late. Incorportating Speed and Drop into an early roach max will deal well with map design limiting the number of areas you can attack with your roaches. Baneling drops are obviously going to be very effective in combination with roach pressure. I wonder if you'd be better delaying the drop tech against a 1 gate expand build and then dropping if he takes his 3rd with his army. Speed finishes around 5-5:15, so Protoss doesn't have map control, and he needs to hide a Probe to scout the 3rd (which good Ling patrols can deny). Then you drop at 8:00 which gives you a good look at his tech choice - there's never a reason to reveal it before then. You also wouldn't decide not to drop, even in worst-case scenarios you'd execute a partial drop. Stargate openings have less gateway units which will make one of the drops more effective. In terms of taking your third against Stargate Protoss, you should have 8-10 Mutalisks or Hydralisks out by the time one Voidray makes it across the map. The biggest fear after the drop is that your opponent is going to go for some sort of gateway all-in, so if your drop does minimal damage and you go for a Mutalisk followup, you're probably going to die to the 6gate / stargate all-in. The better option is usually to go Hydralisk/Drop aggression against Stargate. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On January 11 2013 23:11 TangSC wrote:Speed finishes around 5-5:15, so Protoss doesn't have map control, and he needs to hide a Probe to scout the 3rd (which good Ling patrols can deny). Then you drop at 8:00 which gives you a good look at his tech choice - there's never a reason to reveal it before then. You also wouldn't decide not to drop, even in worst-case scenarios you'd execute a partial drop. Stargate openings have less gateway units which will make one of the drops more effective. Gate/Core-->Stargate against gas/pool actually does have plenty of gateway units. Why? Because the best way to handle gas/pool is to wall off the natural quickly with a couple more gates and warp in gateway units, in preparation for a potential bust. Even if going into SG tech, it's better to just build 2-3 extra gateways or 2 gates and a Forge to wall off, and warp in a couple sentries first. Honestly, just building gates is the only thing necessary to defend roaches or BLings from the front door; with the warpgate timing, gates will finish within a few seconds of WG finishing. So, a gate/core-opening protoss worth his salt should be going up to 3-4 gates or 3 gates and a forge, then proceeding with his tech. That's the safe way to do things, and if zerg opens gas/pool and then just expands, the protoss is still ahead in workers for a while and has no need to pressure--that's the cost of zerg turning a drone into an extractor and then mining gas instead of minerals for a minute, that early in the game. In terms of taking your third against Stargate Protoss, you should have 8-10 Mutalisks or Hydralisks out by the time one Voidray makes it across the map. The biggest fear after the drop is that your opponent is going to go for some sort of gateway all-in, so if your drop does minimal damage and you go for a Mutalisk followup, you're probably going to die to the 6gate / stargate all-in. The better option is usually to go Hydralisk/Drop aggression against Stargate. I don't know about other protosses, but I'm pretty sure that 90% or more of gas/pool openings lead into mutalisks--if they aren't ling-based all-ins. So I'm either getting blink or a squad of phoenixes 100% of the time--either way, I'm going to blind soft-counter mutas and then scout with either hallucination or phoenixes to find out what you're doing. Hydras are definitely less common and therefore less expected from the zerg, but it's not like a 2base Zerg economy is going to produce really threatening Roach/Hydra pushes. It's usually just a dozen or so Hydras and a bunch of lings, and they have maybe 1-2 upgrades between them. Not exactly scary against a big gateway army with a defender's advantage and either twilight tech or phoenixes for support. What you shouldn't be worried about is taking a third; it's that the protoss is going to be economically ahead of you for a long time, then be even with you as both players finish saturating their naturals, and then the toss can just take a third because he has as big an army as you--if not bigger. Sure, if you are cutting corners and trying to sneak in drones/overtech, the toss might go across the map and kill you, or he might just kill your third and go home. But what's really devastating is that the protoss doesn't even have to. Being up in workers and then taking a third at a comparable time to the zerg without building a single cannon? No need to attack a zerg like that, unless the zerg does something really greedy. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 12 2013 01:27 ineversmile wrote: Gate/Core-->Stargate against gas/pool actually does have plenty of gateway units. Why? Because the best way to handle gas/pool is to wall off the natural quickly with a couple more gates and warp in gateway units, in preparation for a potential bust. Even if going into SG tech, it's better to just build 2-3 extra gateways or 2 gates and a Forge to wall off, and warp in a couple sentries first. Honestly, just building gates is the only thing necessary to defend roaches or BLings from the front door; with the warpgate timing, gates will finish within a few seconds of WG finishing. So, a gate/core-opening protoss worth his salt should be going up to 3-4 gates or 3 gates and a forge, then proceeding with his tech. That's the safe way to do things, and if zerg opens gas/pool and then just expands, the protoss is still ahead in workers for a while and has no need to pressure--that's the cost of zerg turning a drone into an extractor and then mining gas instead of minerals for a minute, that early in the game. I don't know about other protosses, but I'm pretty sure that 90% or more of gas/pool openings lead into mutalisks--if they aren't ling-based all-ins. So I'm either getting blink or a squad of phoenixes 100% of the time--either way, I'm going to blind soft-counter mutas and then scout with either hallucination or phoenixes to find out what you're doing. Hydras are definitely less common and therefore less expected from the zerg, but it's not like a 2base Zerg economy is going to produce really threatening Roach/Hydra pushes. It's usually just a dozen or so Hydras and a bunch of lings, and they have maybe 1-2 upgrades between them. Not exactly scary against a big gateway army with a defender's advantage and either twilight tech or phoenixes for support. What you shouldn't be worried about is taking a third; it's that the protoss is going to be economically ahead of you for a long time, then be even with you as both players finish saturating their naturals, and then the toss can just take a third because he has as big an army as you--if not bigger. Sure, if you are cutting corners and trying to sneak in drones/overtech, the toss might go across the map and kill you, or he might just kill your third and go home. But what's really devastating is that the protoss doesn't even have to. Being up in workers and then taking a third at a comparable time to the zerg without building a single cannon? No need to attack a zerg like that, unless the zerg does something really greedy. Yeah I see what you' mean, and agree that Gateway expands have a much better counter to drop-style than FFE or Nexus-first. We may have to test it :D I have limited experience vs Gateway expands. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
http://drop.sc/300574 I didn't learn the build order, I just watched a stream game of Tang and decided to attempt it on the fly. Discussion: What are the correct transitions? Because I know it could have gone badly with the Hydras and getting supply blocked due to popped Overlords.. That is why I blocked my base - because I would have mostly Hydras. How many drones do I build at the natural? When to take 2nd gas and build 2nd/3rd Queen.. Yes my injects were bad but they were staggered. I guess I will learn the build order ^^ Thanks very much TangSC. Please ignore all the boring people who ridicule you for lack of macro. Thanks to your DRG Roach/Ling/Bane "Big Bust", my execution of such timing attacks have improved - I don't need to camp in base and mass drones to win! These attacks remind me of the good old days of Undead timing pushes in WC3 *sigh* Keep em coming! | ||
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Tengo_Hambre
United States51 Posts
I love your builds. Just wanted to give you props for having developed pretty much every build i've ever had success with. Thanks! | ||
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