EPT[G] TangSC's Drop-Style ZvP - Page 3
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Zark
United States50 Posts
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RMP
United Kingdom130 Posts
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Fliparoni
205 Posts
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silentrealm
United States40 Posts
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immanentblue
Denmark110 Posts
On December 26 2012 00:08 RMP wrote: I prefer keeping dropping and going into 2/2 zerglings with infestors and a slower third base. Works really well at GM level :D How do you feel about mixing infestors into drops, as the game goes on? 1 infestor and 2 banelings can fit into an overlord, and 1 fungal+1baneling = instant probe death, in a way where you can also get away with your infestor and ovie i feel (dont have quite enough skill to test this properly though)... | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On December 25 2012 19:35 Thefan wrote: This build looks really great, especially because nowadays a lot of Protosses do a lot of sentries early on. Only, i don't agree with the muta transition, because when the protoss sees the drops, he won't make anymore sentries, or won't go on collossi, and tech on HT and Blink really fast, so mutas aren't so great against it. In your streams, you don't make enough damage to the Protoss because he has Blink at the time you come with mutas. I really prefer the Mass Roach transition, and i guess it can be possible to take like fourth base and tech on infestors and double upgrades for lings. Yeah a lot of people don't like the Mutalisk transition, but it's still my personal favorite because of how well it times out. Also, I really like to keep the pressure on, and drop-muta play is a lot of fun. Still, the roach transition can be really effective if you keep scouting with your fast overlords and don't die to any 2-base counter-attack. Also I'm going to start experimenting more with Infestor/Zergling transitions. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On December 26 2012 17:20 immanentblue wrote: How do you feel about mixing infestors into drops, as the game goes on? 1 infestor and 2 banelings can fit into an overlord, and 1 fungal+1baneling = instant probe death, in a way where you can also get away with your infestor and ovie i feel (dont have quite enough skill to test this properly though)... The only thing is by that time in the game, it's likely Protoss will be expecting drops and Blink may even be done so you may not get a chance to land/fungal then drop. Most times that you drop in after the first, you're expecting to lose that Overlord and the cargo. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On December 26 2012 00:08 RMP wrote: I prefer keeping dropping and going into 2/2 zerglings with infestors and a slower third base. Works really well at GM level :D One of the games from your stream is pretty cool (http://www.twitch.tv/tvrmp/b/351300898 for those who want to check it out), you do heavier drop aggression like I used to do, then transition into the Ling upgrades and infestors. I really like the concept, though I'm wondering (if you reach 38 Drones before the first drop) whether you can take your Evo chambers/infestation/third immediately after Zergling production, then add the other 2 gas. | ||
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CajunMan
United States823 Posts
Do you expect to kill the main nexus every time? I've done this build probably 5-6 times on ladder and got the Main nexus every single time. Just wanted to know if that was normal for you. And besides if they are going air do you find that muta is the best follow up? I was close pos on emtombed and did this build (which still is a losing battle) and went with more drops following up and it did well but soon as he had 2 colossus I just died to the close pos push. I know it was probably just the map but do you find that muta is the best choice following it up? | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On December 27 2012 04:35 CajunMan wrote: Do you expect to kill the main nexus every time? I've done this build probably 5-6 times on ladder and got the Main nexus every single time. Just wanted to know if that was normal for you. And besides if they are going air do you find that muta is the best follow up? I was close pos on emtombed and did this build (which still is a losing battle) and went with more drops following up and it did well but soon as he had 2 colossus I just died to the close pos push. I know it was probably just the map but do you find that muta is the best choice following it up? I often prefer Hydras in response to Stargate play, not that you can't still go Mutalisks, but we all know how that goes once Protoss gets A phoenix. lol. I'm only speculating, but I would guess you were a bit over-aggressive in that game you're talking about. I would say that I kill the main nexus maybe 25-30% of the time, and the vast majority of the time Protoss responds with one of two things: either they push out immediately and go for a desperate gateway counter-attack (which I spine up against), or they re-secure their main and go for a delayed 2-base all-in (something like the Colossus build he did against you). Instead of continuing the aggression once you kill the Nexus, you're probably better off securing your third, getting your Warren, and going Roach/Corruptor (assuming he's not pushing out immediately for a Gateway all-in). You should always know his tech choice and whether he retakes the Nexus, because you have speed Overlords. | ||
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NonameAI
127 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On December 27 2012 10:19 NonameAI wrote: This is an awesome guide, but as you talked about adaptability, it is interesting to consider Stephano's roach build, but incorperate drops instead of looking for an engagement. What i like to do is take 2 overlords' full and drop roaches in each base, leaving the rest of my army as an anchor. Definitely man, I've seen Stephano and Symbol use these to great effect, and it's the style of Late-Game that I like when Protoss tries to get a third. The absolute fastest you can max-out with Overlord drops (after a perfectly optimized 3-hatch opening) is 11 minutes. The fastest you can do it after the early Drop-Style is 13minutes (I've tested these for more hours than I care to admit lol). So you can open the early drop, and still plan to do those multi-pronged Roach drops and pushes throughout the mid-late game. | ||
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Thefan
France20 Posts
@TangSC Why don't you drop on the way your banelings (you know, dropping while moving) ? I find this much more efficient, especially when the guys pulls his probes back ! | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On December 28 2012 18:02 Thefan wrote: After trying this some times on custom games, i can tell it's a very good build because it's really unexpected and unusual. Even if the opponent sees the early Lair, he will most likely think about fast Nydus/Fast mutas/You're an idiot. I still don't like the mutas following up. Only because if you don't go muta, there won't be photons in the mineral lines, and so you can keep on droping banelings in the probes ! @TangSC Why don't you drop on the way your banelings (you know, dropping while moving) ? I find this much more efficient, especially when the guys pulls his probes back ! I just try to drop them on big packs of Probes, but the drop-while-moving mechanic is definitely useful. I see what you mean about Photon cannons after the drop too, seems counter-intuitive to follow with Mutalisks but against a Robo opening, the muta followup is still very strong. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
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Turbogangsta
Australia319 Posts
i made this build a while ago and it hits at 9 mins and has 3 hatches so its much harder to scout. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AgejQxWGYVMxdFBFc0xJUFBUREk4c2FuaEdKaTQ5MUE&output=html when i posted it to the zerg help me thread all i recieved was negative feedback but i would like to know what you think. I feel like its only advantage to yours is that it is harder to scout. It seems every time you bring out a build i have a 3 hatch varient of it haha | ||
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Thefan
France20 Posts
On December 29 2012 11:55 Turbogangsta wrote: tang i was wandering about how a similar build that hits later with 3 hatches would fair. i made this build a while ago and it hits at 9 mins and has 3 hatches so its much harder to scout. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AgejQxWGYVMxdFBFc0xJUFBUREk4c2FuaEdKaTQ5MUE&output=html when i posted it to the zerg help me thread all i recieved was negative feedback but i would like to know what you think. I feel like its only advantage to yours is that it is harder to scout. It seems every time you bring out a build i have a 3 hatch varient of it haha Looks really interesting ! The problem with Tang's version is also that if you fail your drop (like kile no worker, happens), the opponent can counter attack you so hardly ! Could you make a "real BO" version of it ? Even only for the early game, cause on your spreadsheet we don't know if the gas is before the pool, etc... | ||
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Turbogangsta
Australia319 Posts
On December 29 2012 19:40 Thefan wrote: Looks really interesting ! The problem with Tang's version is also that if you fail your drop (like kile no worker, happens), the opponent can counter attack you so hardly ! Could you make a "real BO" version of it ? Even only for the early game, cause on your spreadsheet we don't know if the gas is before the pool, etc... this just assumes standard 3 hatch but ive outlined the variations. you will want a later than nomal 3rd by about 5 supply. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On December 29 2012 11:55 Turbogangsta wrote: tang i was wandering about how a similar build that hits later with 3 hatches would fair. i made this build a while ago and it hits at 9 mins and has 3 hatches so its much harder to scout. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AgejQxWGYVMxdFBFc0xJUFBUREk4c2FuaEdKaTQ5MUE&output=html when i posted it to the zerg help me thread all i recieved was negative feedback but i would like to know what you think. I feel like its only advantage to yours is that it is harder to scout. It seems every time you bring out a build i have a 3 hatch varient of it haha Drop starts a full minute later (maybe even a bit more) so you'd be hard-pressed to hold 7gate +1 all-ins (or even 4gate +1 pressure). Also they'd have more air units out if Stargate was their tech choice, and you'd almost never be able to get the drop off without losing some of the Overlords. I'm hesitant to try later-drop variations for these reasons, but would have to see it in action to know for sure. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On December 29 2012 11:55 Turbogangsta wrote: tang i was wandering about how a similar build that hits later with 3 hatches would fair. i made this build a while ago and it hits at 9 mins and has 3 hatches so its much harder to scout. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AgejQxWGYVMxdFBFc0xJUFBUREk4c2FuaEdKaTQ5MUE&output=html when i posted it to the zerg help me thread all i recieved was negative feedback but i would like to know what you think. I feel like its only advantage to yours is that it is harder to scout. It seems every time you bring out a build i have a 3 hatch varient of it haha I think if you go for drop play on 3base, it's best to do it after toss takes a 3rd/you have some time to establish a good eco first instead of sac'ing eco like this 2base build to do damage with the drop. The problem with drop off of 3base into a 2base toss is that your drop will hit during/after he's hitting you with a 2base allin, and you're going to most likely come out on the wrong end of that base trade. However once toss takes a 3rd I have a guide on TL that outlines using multipronged drops to harass/do eco damage while buying time for T3 (I usually transition to ultra/bane), and it hits before the typical 3base colossus timing (around 12:30): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384256 There're other options for drops such as using hydra drops and whatnot that others have had success with. | ||
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