So by going 3 hatch + 1 queen, you are essentially doing 2 base muta, but disguising it as a 3 base opening, right?
That's a cool idea.

If you're doing that, you can also do 2 base hatch tech all-ins with 3 hatcheries and 1 queen. your gamble pays off (or doesn't) earlier :p

Natalya

Belgium287 Posts

December 12 2012 00:57 GMT

#22

Well the thing is, it's a lot less obvious (if possible at all to scout) as you said, and you can transition better out of it than a 2 base mutalisk vs stargate would. I think the 3rd hatch pays for itself by allowing queen production and a little bit of mining as well.

Mavvie

Canada923 Posts

December 12 2012 01:07 GMT

#23

I appreciate the effort you put into this guide, but I really don't like this build. First of all, it's basically a more extreme version of Nestea's fast muta build that, unlike Nestea's build, simply dies to any sort of expand. Sure it beats immortal/sentry, but it loses to a majority of other Protoss styles. Not saying it's an autoloss, but you're in a shitty position (as you mention) against any sort of expand build, especially stargate expands. It's like saying 2 base infestor counters sentry/immortal all in, but it's just disguised a little bit. Like it does, but you're fucked if he sees the spines or has any hint that you're going for mutas. It can work, but it's a gamble, so it's not a legit solution IMO.

It's like stopping a 7gate all in with some 2 base play; it's kind of stupid and a bad solution.

Insomni7

667 Posts

December 12 2012 01:25 GMT

#24

I don't like it. I have used mutas against the immortal all-in and I Would much rather put the minerals you are putting into spines into a lot of zerglings and drones for your 5th and 6th gas. What this allows you to do is commit hard to the basetrade and there is always the chance to catch their army moving across the map if they aren't careful. It does depend a bit on the map but I find the all-out basetrade usually more effective. I would only make the lings once you scout the robo since this way if they do end up expanding, you still have a pretty strong attack on their immortal sentry defensive force as the base goes up.

Natalya

Belgium287 Posts

December 12 2012 02:05 GMT

#25

I think i'll use it for a week or so. The thing is, i feel super comfortable against anything but immortal all-in. I rarely dies to 3 base push and in the late game... u know how it is in the late game. So the immo all in represent like 75% of my loses or something, so i feel ok with having a build that hard counters it (if not scouted etc.) and being behind against other builds like fast 3rd stargate, which i find ridiculously weaks.

jonaa

Netherlands151 Posts

December 12 2012 02:43 GMT

#26

On December 12 2012 08:15 Natalya wrote:

Show nested quote +

This has been answered already

Show nested quote +

How do you guys know Starbuck? Are you high GM yourself or something? I'm really curious

Hit him on ladder played him in teamleagues / cups and friend of mine was in nubreed with him for a while. He's bm and he's decent.

mouzStarbuck

Slovenia17 Posts

December 12 2012 19:57 GMT

#27

Yo guys, Starbuck here, i want to write about the "low economy" and "gamble". First of all it's not a gamble, it's a build that works vs anything, so i do it no matter what protoss goes, so those replays aren't really the example of the BO. You are supposed to harras protoss with mutas while droning hard your 3rd hatchery and making 2 more queens for creep spreading. You make 8-9 mutas, harras their mineral line and then after mutas pop out you make 2 evolution chambers, infestation pit and a roach wareen. 1-1 Roach upgrades, drone/infstor, roach speed, take 4th and spine infestor BL. This is not a gamble build at all, the spine queen was just my reaction to a spotted immortal allin build.

MateShade

Australia736 Posts

December 19 2012 06:38 GMT

#28

On December 12 2012 07:25 Natalya wrote:

Show nested quote +

?? You make a wall of spines at the natural and sac the third

Yeah... Seen pros try that lol

Deleted User 261926

960 Posts

December 19 2012 13:03 GMT

#29

On December 13 2012 04:57 Starbuck- wrote:
Yo guys, Starbuck here, i want to write about the "low economy" and "gamble". First of all it's not a gamble, it's a build that works vs anything, so i do it no matter what protoss goes, so those replays aren't really the example of the BO. You are supposed to harras protoss with mutas while droning hard your 3rd hatchery and making 2 more queens for creep spreading. You make 8-9 mutas, harras their mineral line and then after mutas pop out you make 2 evolution chambers, infestation pit and a roach wareen. 1-1 Roach upgrades, drone/infstor, roach speed, take 4th and spine infestor BL. This is not a gamble build at all, the spine queen was just my reaction to a spotted immortal allin build.

Hello, I must say I really like this style. Good job for inventing it. You say those replays aren't really the example of the BO so could you please provide some other replays ? I am really really interested in this.

Daitro

England31 Posts

December 19 2012 13:51 GMT

#30

I can't fathom any possible way you would defend a 6/7/8 warpgate allin (MC style). You're getting early ling speed which helps deal with close pylons, but you've got 1 queen so there's no way you can make enough Zerglings to survive (especially if he has +1)

The other option is to give up your third, spine your natural up and hope you can hold. But pure warpgate allins hit so much faster than Immortal/Sentry builds and with your 1 queen build you've got so few Drones I don't see you getting near enough spines to survive.

jonaa

Netherlands151 Posts

December 19 2012 14:59 GMT

#31

So bassically what you're saying is that you ripped nestea's quick muta build and that the only thing 'unique' is the way you hold immortal sentry and or your follow up. Not to mention even those are pretty standard and self explaining.

alpenrahm

Germany629 Posts

December 19 2012 15:15 GMT

#32

as a terran, i gotta say i love this build. it s tricky, smart, deceptive and completely unintuitive and can get yourself a really stupid loss if you played it at the wrong time. i wish there were more people who would treat the game as poker matches as opposed to the standart macro slugfest i am experiencing on ladder. protoss is the worst in this regard. it seems as if i can not get away from this abomination that is gate core nexus robo 2 gates colossi 2forges templar. if they feel really tricky they might add a warpprism before colossi. Basically when i am playing someone i have previously played on ladder, knowing he s one of the standart tosses, i just go cc first, outmacro him and do my first scout at 11:00 with a late medivac timing. why, because i can and because i know that he wont be deviating from his game plan. And the funny thing about this is, it works. the real tragedy tho is that there are so many good early pressure or kill plays to all the 3 races which arnt being used even if they would be the superior choice given they could go unscouted. such as the 3 gate blink allin on shakuras. standart 3 gate pressure, or even just the scout denial by delaying the first stalkers moveout to 5:00. all in all if you know that your opponent has a lack of precise scouting information you need to exploit it!

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