EPT[D]Code S Terrans having a hard time with mech TvZ - Page 3
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gengka
Malaysia461 Posts
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lukasdesign
Switzerland93 Posts
HotS will change that.../irony off | ||
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ImFromPortugal
Portugal1368 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
And then, zerg has options in the lategame that are available almost instantly. The BL -> ultra switch is by far the most brutal tech switch. Once your mech army has lost all of it's big, expensive units like tanks and thors, zerg can just remax on ultra/ling and run over your composition. All that being said, mech is fragile composition that requires just the right components in order to deal with certain compositions, and with zerg being able to switch through tech constantly, mech just can't keep up. I might argue that to some degree in TvP as well, although protoss can't tech switch QUITE as easily. Best solution to this problem: Terran needs better space control through tanks. I'm all for increasing the siege time for damage or giving tank a lategame upgrade. I think tanks really need to be able to decimate ground armies better with smaller numbers. This allows terrans to spend less into tanks and more into the more variant components of their compositions (mostly BFH/vikings), as well as allowing terran to better control space in lategame situations on big maps. I know Widow Mines in HotS are supposed to be helping with these things, but I honestly think that the best thing that could happen to terran is just a straight up tank buff in some capacity. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
vP, carriers are directly countered by Ghosts + BC (Yamato + EMP is really powerful), VR are killed by thors/Seeker Missile/Turrets/Yamato, and storm/archons are easily dodged (and stalkers get denied by PDD or tanks). vZ, you need a lot of vAir dps in order to kill BL before they kill your whole ground army, and you have to do so while also dealing with corruptors (which, in direct fights, are superior to vikings and makes BCs useless without 20 ravens behind them) and fungal (which forces direct fights... and weakens your vikings). (vZ only) Buffing tanks would of course help a lot versus the ground, but actually a good mech army can handle everything on the ground (well..at least one wave. the 2nd can easily kill you if you dont dont adapt well enough to what he's going to produce) but air is really the problem... Corruptors > vikings, Broodlords > anything on the ground, and infestors makes everything worse. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
I'm not a grandmasters level player, but I honestlly think the reason why terran mech against zerg works so badly at a pro level is that they're trying to be too efficient with mech and skimping out on the things that makes it powerful. MVP for example usually opens with hellions to hurass, but oftentimes just dies to mass roaches as he tries to build more thors than tanks and tries to push out. Although it seems silly I think pushing out against zerg before hive as mech is a really silly thing to do. It's much better to "whether the storm" while hurassing his sattelite bases with hellions than it is to run straight into a massive roach wall. With the maps we currently have in the map pool it's really, really easy to secure 4 bases with mech most of the time if you spread and position carefully and no matter how you actually push the zerg, you're never going to kill them before broodlords if they're anywhere above Platinum (if you're using mech which doesn't revolve around a massive thor timing push) as zerg really can outmaneuver and force bad engagements with a mech army thanks to ITs. I'm honestly not sure why people see the thor better than the tank in most situations in WOL, It just simply isn't the case. Even against broodlords it's a lot better to have a lot of tanks than it is to have thors as although the thor can shoot up, it barely does any damage and although the tank does splash damage to your other tanks/hellions, your high tank count still completely stops his infestors running straight at you and dumping ITs or fungal onto your air units. | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On November 15 2012 13:46 mothergoose729 wrote: Hey I don't claim to be an expert. If flash can hit the same timing one minute ealier then maybe there is hope for the strategy. I am a pretty intelligent guy who has watched these mech strategies a lot, and it just doesn't look like its working. As a matter of fact, it isn't working. I don't think it unreasonable to call the strategy bad if nobody is winning with it, and its premise that it is built upon is fundamentally flawed; a timing push meant to hit before broodlords that consistently doesn't hit before broodlords has some problems with it. If you are joe shomo on the latter or MVP in the finals it doesn't matter really, your strategy is bunk, or in the very least your execution isn't working. But I didn't write the thread to shit on MVP or any of the other best terran in the world! If you can provide some replays of the strategy being perfectly executed I would love to see what it looks like. I am just an esports fan, and I have no problem admitting I don't know very much compared to a progamer. Mothergoose, thanks for the post. I read all the responses in this forum, even Lynna, who has been a huge mech advocate and has many good guides on the TL forums. For the most part I take a middle ground between your opinion and Ver's. You both have many good points: You are able to back up the problem with clear (undeniable) statistics, while Ver has more experience and knowledge about these tactics first hand. I'm a high masters player that only plays mech against all races (yes, even Toss). Do I think TvZ bio can ensure a higher win rate for me? Yes. But I choose not to play it for two reasons. 1) My APM is not has high as some at my level so I think mech is a better alternative for me. 2) Even though mech (arguably) requires less APM, it requires more cerebral and tactical thinking. Constant scanning to view the Zerg army position, composition and tech level is critical or you will probably die. Most bio TvZ is successfull because the Terran generally finds success by constant drop harass: They are keeping Zerg on the defense, whereas the opposite is true with Mech. There is a reason why GoOdy can win against a Zerg with 250 APM versus his 90 APM with mech: He uses a more tactical and positional approach and his game sense is one of the best out there (in my opinion) regarding tech switches. It is sad to see many GM Terrans go on autopilot most of the time with bio TvZ. My analogy: If whitera were a Terran I think he would play mech. Conclusion: With all this being said. Which is better? Mech or Bio? I would say mech is superior to Bio TvZ; however, like Ver mentioned you have to play mech "perfectly." So this is an alternative a lot less forgiving than Bio. If you are a player who gets easily nervous, distracted or have trouble with Zerg timings and general game sense then mech probably is not for you. Many player compensate for some of these shortcomings with APM, which is great! Each player needs to decide for themselves their strengths and weaknesses and not simply go mech or bio because everyone else is doing it. | ||
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FeyverN
United States104 Posts
On November 15 2012 14:27 FinalForm wrote: I hear way to many commentators saying "oh he caught caught unseiged thats why he lost" but in reality a code s terran isnt stupid and he wasn't "caught". Have you every seen anyone actually leapfrog tanks before or have you done it yourself? It takes at least twice as long and with maps as big as they are these days it takes just too damn long. Yes, perhaps. The thing we aren't all realizing is that Code S players play at such a high level, one mistake can cost you the game. Sure, if you leave a Zerg alone and let him get Brood/Infestor, you will lose with Mech. This is why Terrans must leapfrog across the map and be at the zerg's front door by the time his greater spire just started. Constant scans are also nice, it's important to keep tabs on the Zerg to see when his Greater Spire will start. As anyone can tell you, a timing push when the zerg has corruptors building is almost 100% winrate for the terran (or protoss!). This is where I get confused. Terran builds up a lot of minerals in the late game. Naturally, this is because Mech is gas-focused. The only way to dump that is into hellions (they start become worse and worse as the game goes on, though they are good damage-sponges if ultralisks come into play) or you can dump it into Orbital Commands, which we see a lot of Terrans do. When you invest into a lot of Orbital Commands, you have two choices: 1. MULES 2. Scans With MULES, you probably won't need minerals since mech is so gas-focused, but Scans provide, essentially, a maphack for the terran. If terran gets to a point where they have 8 orbital commands, they can constantly scan and see when the Greater Spire starts. I also want to point out that yes, Terran can get caught unsieged and lose. The same can be said for Zerg. The Zerg can be caught clumped up and seeker missiles can destroy him. We see Terrans DESTROY Zerg armies with Seeker Missiles, but then we see Stephano split and crush the terran with 100 supply over his opponent. I suppose it all depends on micro, but it can be argued that the Zerg lategame favors Terran. This is because Zerg has the remax effect. So, the entire time you're getting ready to kill Brood Lords, the Zerg can instantly remax on Ultralisks. Ultralisks are actually pretty good vs Thors, and the Ravens suddenly become useless. | ||
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Envy4343
United States13 Posts
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
On December 02 2012 00:46 Qikz wrote: Vikings are really good against corrupters, but you need raven and thors to support (raven for PDD) and Thors for the splash when they clump. I really don't know why most pros are trying to use hunterseeker (I personally find it way too coinflippy and it's generally decided by how bad your opponent is, not how good you are). I guess it comes from going into air from bio, but when playing mech I keep both my air and ground attack upgrades for mech going from the beginning of the game. Armor in all seriousness isn't that useful with mech until you head past the initial "can I survive his broodlords" attack and if you get enough tanks and place them well enough, an ultra switch shouldn't ever be able to kill you. Actually vikings are awful against corruptors, thors and ravens are awful against corruptors unless they clump as well. I'm not a grandmasters level player, but I honestlly think the reason why terran mech against zerg works so badly at a pro level is that they're trying to be too efficient with mech and skimping out on the things that makes it powerful. MVP for example usually opens with hellions to hurass, but oftentimes just dies to mass roaches as he tries to build more thors than tanks and tries to push out. Although it seems silly I think pushing out against zerg before hive as mech is a really silly thing to do. It's much better to "whether the storm" while hurassing his sattelite bases with hellions than it is to run straight into a massive roach wall. mech works badly at pro level because zerg hive units are infinitely better than mech and mech revolves around hitting a pre-hive timing, not because the terrans are stupid and playing bad. when harass is successful or zerg doesn't hive rush (roach max old school style) then tanks work out okay. did you watch MVP vs Life? He had like 17+ tanks dying to bls with enough vikings to count on one hand. what is this playing against zerg is a really silly thing to do. With the maps we currently have in the map pool it's really, really easy to secure 4 bases with mech most of the time if you spread and position carefully and no matter how you actually push the zerg, you're never going to kill them before broodlords if they're anywhere above Platinum (if you're using mech which doesn't revolve around a massive thor timing push) as zerg really can outmaneuver and force bad engagements with a mech army thanks to ITs. It's also really easy to secure 4 bases with zerg and bls are good. I'm honestly not sure why people see the thor better than the tank in most situations in WOL, It just simply isn't the case. Even against broodlords it's a lot better to have a lot of tanks than it is to have thors as although the thor can shoot up, it barely does any damage and although the tank does splash damage to your other tanks/hellions, your high tank count still completely stops his infestors running straight at you and dumping ITs or fungal onto your air units. thats not how it works at all, a fleet of bls will just spawn a wall of broodlings and completely wipe out your tank line. Infestors will do whatever they want. Only an idiot zerg with awful micro will lose infestors to tanks like this when bls are out(sadly this happens a lot). | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On November 15 2012 13:35 Ver wrote: Calling Mvp's strategy a "shitty strategy" is beyond comprehension. Mvp is the most innovative player by far in the history of the game. Any build he does has very good reasons behind it. Instead of insulting him, learn from him. This. It wasn't like MVP's strat were stupid. More like Life made him so uncomfortable with constant waves of aggression or harassment that it was hard for him to tell how much Life committed on these attacks, making it very hard to judge when broodlords were coming. I will agree though that he could've made a couple more Thors in his composition XD | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Look, to all the people who are disagreeing with Ver, basically a mech timing relies on hitting before the impenetrable zerg superball starts rolling. Corruptors are simply better than vikings, Seeker missiles are eminently dodgable, and fungal growth coupled with broodlings (lots of them) preventing easy marine run-forwards and forcing tank unsieges make for a truly terrifying combination. It's not impossible to win if Terran has a big advantage going in, but this is not a situation Terran can deal with. IM-Mvp is one of those pros who in addition to having all the expertise and skills of a progamer, is unbelievably intelligent. His mech is righteous and it doesn't have obvious holes or problems in it that someone like you or I would be able to see. In the same way that as a gold league player I understood I couldn't theorycraft or understand what a master league player is doing, I have the respect and humility not to go and say that all the Code S Terrans, the best players in the world, are overlooking something. They're so many levels above me that it's not reasonable to say that. This is a good discussion though. There's not too much I can actually add because Ver is just so right. | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
Simply put, massing infestors needs to be far more of a risk than it is right now. There are a number of subtle ways to do this but I'm going to leave that to other people. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On December 02 2012 14:44 KawaiiRice wrote: Actually vikings are awful against corruptors, thors and ravens are awful against corruptors unless they clump as well. Well when I started watching your youtube channel ages ago I never thought I'd get a response from you anywhere, but I see what you're saying in all aspects and agree mostly, However I do honestly believe if you can use enough PDDs (say from about 4 ravens each throwing one down), the fight between corrupters and vikings isn't all that favoured towards the corrupters. Without PDD though I'd say that vikings get owned by corrupters as you can never really "retreat" with your air units, same goes for void rays. carriers and battlecruisers. Corrupters if anything are probably the best AtA in the game. I think the biggest issue in viking/corrupter battles I've seen happen in pro games (especially when the pro goes for Ravens as well like Bomber? I think it was this IPL on metropolis) is the fact they always go for Hunter Seeker and rarely for PDD. PDD I would personally say is certainly a necessity against zerg air due to the power of corrupters. It may not last super long, but it still gives your vikings a chance to kill a few extra of them before they start damaging you and atleast unlike Hunter Seeker which relies on the zerg being an idiot, PDD guarentees some extra damage. | ||
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On December 02 2012 20:36 Qikz wrote: Well when I started watching your youtube channel ages ago I never thought I'd get a response from you anywhere, but I see what you're saying in all aspects and agree mostly, However I do honestly believe if you can use enough PDDs (say from about 4 ravens each throwing one down), the fight between corrupters and vikings isn't all that favoured towards the corrupters. Without PDD though I'd say that vikings get owned by corrupters as you can never really "retreat" with your air units, same goes for void rays. carriers and battlecruisers. Corrupters if anything are probably the best AtA in the game. I think the biggest issue in viking/corrupter battles I've seen happen in pro games (especially when the pro goes for Ravens as well like Bomber? I think it was this IPL on metropolis) is the fact they always go for Hunter Seeker and rarely for PDD. PDD I would personally say is certainly a necessity against zerg air due to the power of corrupters. It may not last super long, but it still gives your vikings a chance to kill a few extra of them before they start damaging you and atleast unlike Hunter Seeker which relies on the zerg being an idiot, PDD guarentees some extra damage. Corrupters beat vikings not because they do too much damage, but because they live forever. Placing down PDDs doesn't help you kill corruptors or (more importantly) brood lords. Corruptors just piggy back on the damage of fungals to finish off vikings, and serve as a constant "air shield" for BLs. Also, you can always run away from PDDs. Since you're trying to delay a death push, the Zerg has PLENTY of room to back up. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
This is basically why HSM is used more than PDD : because you want to end the fight quickly, before BL killed all your ground force, and before fungal/IT destroyed all your air | ||
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SickMyDuck_
30 Posts
On November 15 2012 12:24 mothergoose729 wrote: I looked over the round of 32 and round of 16 groups A and B and compiled the result, thus far code s terrans have tried mech 16 times, 17 times if you count game 1 of life vs 8thTeamBaby. Of those fifteen or sixteen games terrans have won with mech exactly three times, giving the strategy about a 25% winrate. 3 out of 12 is 25%. ( 1/4 ) 3 out of 15 is 20%. ( 1/5 ) 3 out of 16 and 3 out out 17 are not the same thing. I'm a statistics student,and my blood froze when i read that 25%,nothing personal.Just get the math straight before publishing,this is not even statistics. | ||
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SickMyDuck_
30 Posts
Sorry,I'm tired of pretending,like everybody else,that ZvP and ZvT are balanced matches.They are not unbalanced up until VERY HIGH level;discussing it as a plat/dia/even mid master player is pointless.So in this case,where we see the best of the best play,it becomes an issue.And sorry,but whoever doesn't have the balls to open this can of worms,is just a hypocrith. -Nearly 50% of the GM's are zergs,EU and NA servers. -IPL/GSL/MLG finals = ZvZ -WCS had top 3 protosses,true.The event had a qualification which took place 8 months ago,and the actually ''good'' zergs were not present.And yet,some zergs which were not even top 10 in the world,knocked out top tier players of other races. -Currently Terran has an average of 31% winrate on pro level against zerg.(IPL5 Source,feel free to check the math by yourselves) Reading that MVP used a ''shitty'' strategy actually makes me extremely sad.Don't you think that he knows exactly what the best strategy will be?The one with the highest win %,if executed properly?You are suggesting that the matchup is getting stagnant,which may be.If it wasn't for the months of theorycrafting P and T made to actually find a consistent way to counter zerg.And pros know it.Zergs know it,protosses know it,terrans know it. Rather then this,the blue posts pretty much nailed your point. And I'm sorry if this may sound a whining reply,a flaming reply,or any of that kind.I am simply stating that the answer to why mech 'fails' and why all pros keep on relying on it is as logical as it can get : mech is the best way to deal with the current state of the ZvP matchup.This speaks volumes. Now feel free to ban me,only because I'm stating something that we all know,and that is supported by data,facts,and is apropo to the thread. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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