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On January 31 2013 22:21 Matiz_pl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 19:16 doggy wrote:On January 30 2013 17:52 JackRipper wrote:
How do you play a ZvZ where you go Mutas and the other person goes roaches? they seem to be able to stall by attacking and that gives them enough time to build enough spores/hydras. Do you have to transition back to roaches or is there a way to win with just muta? How many mutas is enough to fight of a hydra pack cost effectively? Due to the fungal change and the new regeneration from mutas you dont have to transition out of muta. I like to stick to muta ling bane, its very important that you get baneling speed if your opponent goes ground based. Creep spread and attacking from all possible angles while not clumping any of your ling bling muta squads is very important to do that. If your opponent goes for hydras before infestors you most likely can kill him straight away. However, most people tend to get infestors first (which is correct). To play against this style, you should get dropupgrades right after your baneling speed. Drops are a really strong followup to mutaplay, because your opponent wont have any overlord vision on the map, and you dont risk your muta flock while harassing, banes can do that job far more efficient. Furthermore, overlords save your banelings from fungals/roach snipes, so you will get connections with them. I try to split up my mutas in 3 squads when i try to kill my opponents army, same goes for bane bombs, its best to attack from all angles possible. Furthermore you also want to go for banedrops in the minerallines and lingrunbys to every expo of your opponent while the engagement happens. Your opponent wont ever be able to fend of everything, its way too micro intensive, even vs high apm gm players. That being said, you should also consider that this style requires a absurdly high amount of apm from yourself. But its very funny  You also should never overcommit to muta, 11-14 in the early midgame and ~20 in the later stages of the game are more than enough. If youre capable of microing more than 3 mutaflocks at the same time, you could theoretically go for more. Ground attack upgrades are also very important, it makes the runbys, counterattacks and banebombs much more stronger it works same as oldschool zvt when you wanna engage, kill the hydras with the banes, snipe the infestors with ling muta and let the mutas kill the rest once there isnt any more anti air. Thats just my personal preference tho, muta into roach infestor still works pretty well too. On January 30 2013 01:50 Alpina wrote:
What are some good safe and decent economy ZvZ openings?
I usually go to 15H 15P, but it dies horribly for 10 pool baneling bust which comes even before any of my units spawn. Now i don't want to do 14/14 cause it's so bad economically vs. 15/15. What about 14H 14P or something like that? If you dont wanna 9 scout into hatch first you can also go for 15p/16h. You can snipe the banes with your queen and kill the lings with lings/drones. Your muta bane drop strat looks really interesting, do you have any replays of this vs pro players? What about if he goes ~170 food attack with ~8-10 infestors and a bunch of hydras and roaches outta 3 bases? Does it really hold it? I feel like fungal is still pretty powerful option, and dodging it in such a huge battle (Overlord drops, microing lings, 3 flocks of mutas) can be damn hard to execute. Also fungaling overlords seems powerful too? Since it can divide army at allow to deal with it part by part. I'm theorycrafting here, would love some reps to prove me wrong What's current metagame for ZvT? I see a lot of 2 base muta from Ret and i hear roaches are must (i assume it's with 3 base build?), can't really decide what to use. I've had quite a lot of success with roach ling bane on 3 bases into drops.
A teammate of me will cast some zvzs from that strategy really soon. I do have a lot of replays, unfortunately most of them dont work because theyre pre-patch :-(
Originally i went for that strat without banedrops until i had a really intense game vs TLO (he went queen infestor hydra bane vs that) where i didnt go for drops, just for very good spread and multiple angles - still it was very very close despite perfect fungals, and still i survived the 170 food push without problems, but i died later because i overcommited doing the counterattack. I havent lost so far to any pushes when i wasnt behind all game long since i go for the dropupgrade as a followup. 170 Food attacks dont seem like a problem to me as long as you dont clumb any of your mutas/lings/overlords too much. Microing is not as hard as you think it is, or i should rather say its even more harder for the infestor going zerg to micro. Its very important to get a really good creapspread and pre-split your units to all possible angles. You also want to stream your groundforce (tons of lings with very few banes split in) instead of clumbed attacking from multiple angles, it negates any efficient use of fungal.
In zvt i like 2 base muta more, even tho i dont recommend using roaches when you wanna go for mutas as i mentioned in one of my posts above.
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Sounds really good, what about ultra switch out of this? Should be really powerful, i assume once you survive big moveout you spine up and go hive and basically win the game?
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What are the different compositions you want throughout the game for each matchup? For example, in ZvP in WoL it would be roach -> roach infestor -> infestor ling -> infestor broodlord or something along those lines. However, having just switched to zerg I don't know the HotS equivalents so help would be appreciated.
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On February 03 2013 03:59 kollin wrote:
What are the different compositions you want throughout the game for each matchup? For example, in ZvP in WoL it would be roach -> roach infestor -> infestor ling -> infestor broodlord or something along those lines. However, having just switched to zerg I don't know the HotS equivalents so help would be appreciated.
ZvZ is mainly Muta wars, if one player doesn't the muta player normally wins if he plays it correctly.
ZvP I think most zergs are going roach/hydra or mutalisks, personally I go either mutalisks or swarmhost heavy play with corruptor support and late game normally involves ling/bane/ultra/infestor.
ZvT some zergs go muta some go fast hive into ultralisks. Not sure what the strongest composition is as of yet.
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Thanks, what sort of openers should I be looking at? Have they changed much since WoL or are they mostly similar?
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On February 03 2013 04:12 kollin wrote:
Thanks, what sort of openers should I be looking at? Have they changed much since WoL or are they mostly similar?
Yeah until lair tech kicks in everything is the same opener wise.
ZvP vs forge FE still get fast 3 base, etc.
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I was just watching Idra's stream and he played a ZvZ against you I believe it was Blade. Both of you went for mutas, but Idra got attack for them over armor? Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd always thought armor was favored over attack for muta wars. What's the reasoning behind Idra getting attack if this is the case
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On February 03 2013 07:53 kollin wrote:
I was just watching Idra's stream and he played a ZvZ against you I believe it was Blade. Both of you went for mutas, but Idra got attack for them over armor? Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd always thought armor was favored over attack for muta wars. What's the reasoning behind Idra getting attack if this is the case
I did not know that but I am not sure. I thought he normally went armor first, maybe he thought I wasn't going to go mutalisks so he got +1 attack and then i did go mutas which there is no point in canceling it as he would already be behind in upgrades then.
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Uhm, this might be a very stupid question, but how do I approach ZvP? I feel that in a macro game I get absolutely smashed by voidray colossi, especially since stargate and mshipcore are so effective at holding back attempts at denying an early third, which means they get that economy so quickly.
I have plenty of 2base allins that are effective, but I always prefer the long macro games. Is there a composition to deal with voidray colossi, or am I stuck doing extremely agressive play in the early-mid game? I've tried opening spire, but stargate openers are so common that it almost always gets shut down by pheonix :/
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On February 03 2013 08:25 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 07:53 kollin wrote:
I was just watching Idra's stream and he played a ZvZ against you I believe it was Blade. Both of you went for mutas, but Idra got attack for them over armor? Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd always thought armor was favored over attack for muta wars. What's the reasoning behind Idra getting attack if this is the case I did not know that but I am not sure. I thought he normally went armor first, maybe he thought I wasn't going to go mutalisks so he got +1 attack and then i did go mutas which there is no point in canceling it as he would already be behind in upgrades then.
The first attack upgrade gives each glaive bounce 1 extra damage, so it goes like this: 9+3+1 ----> 10+4+2. So it basically negates plus one armor and is slightly cheaper, which is why he got it I imagine. The next attack upgrade does not improve the bounce damage so armor is preferable after that. It is stupid and unintuitive, but it is what it is. Test it for yourself.
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On February 03 2013 09:00 sweetbabyjesus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 08:25 blade55555 wrote:On February 03 2013 07:53 kollin wrote:
I was just watching Idra's stream and he played a ZvZ against you I believe it was Blade. Both of you went for mutas, but Idra got attack for them over armor? Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd always thought armor was favored over attack for muta wars. What's the reasoning behind Idra getting attack if this is the case I did not know that but I am not sure. I thought he normally went armor first, maybe he thought I wasn't going to go mutalisks so he got +1 attack and then i did go mutas which there is no point in canceling it as he would already be behind in upgrades then. The first attack upgrade gives each glaive bounce 1 extra damage, so it goes like this: 9+3+1 ----> 10+4+2. So it basically negates plus one armor and is slightly cheaper, which is why he got it I imagine. The next attack upgrade does not improve the bounce damage so armor is preferable after that. It is stupid and unintuitive, but it is what it is. Test it for yourself.
Holy shit is this really true? I was sure + 1 attack only influenced the first target and not the bounce damage, isn't that why everyone gets armor first?
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On February 03 2013 09:10 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 09:00 sweetbabyjesus wrote:On February 03 2013 08:25 blade55555 wrote:On February 03 2013 07:53 kollin wrote:
I was just watching Idra's stream and he played a ZvZ against you I believe it was Blade. Both of you went for mutas, but Idra got attack for them over armor? Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd always thought armor was favored over attack for muta wars. What's the reasoning behind Idra getting attack if this is the case I did not know that but I am not sure. I thought he normally went armor first, maybe he thought I wasn't going to go mutalisks so he got +1 attack and then i did go mutas which there is no point in canceling it as he would already be behind in upgrades then. The first attack upgrade gives each glaive bounce 1 extra damage, so it goes like this: 9+3+1 ----> 10+4+2. So it basically negates plus one armor and is slightly cheaper, which is why he got it I imagine. The next attack upgrade does not improve the bounce damage so armor is preferable after that. It is stupid and unintuitive, but it is what it is. Test it for yourself. Holy shit is this really true? I was sure + 1 attack only influenced the first target and not the bounce damage, isn't that why everyone gets armor first?
I don't think it's common knowledge. As said, it is pretty unintuitive. Don't know if it's been changed, it wasn't a few weeks ago.
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On February 03 2013 09:16 sweetbabyjesus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 09:10 Musicus wrote:On February 03 2013 09:00 sweetbabyjesus wrote:On February 03 2013 08:25 blade55555 wrote:On February 03 2013 07:53 kollin wrote:
I was just watching Idra's stream and he played a ZvZ against you I believe it was Blade. Both of you went for mutas, but Idra got attack for them over armor? Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd always thought armor was favored over attack for muta wars. What's the reasoning behind Idra getting attack if this is the case I did not know that but I am not sure. I thought he normally went armor first, maybe he thought I wasn't going to go mutalisks so he got +1 attack and then i did go mutas which there is no point in canceling it as he would already be behind in upgrades then. The first attack upgrade gives each glaive bounce 1 extra damage, so it goes like this: 9+3+1 ----> 10+4+2. So it basically negates plus one armor and is slightly cheaper, which is why he got it I imagine. The next attack upgrade does not improve the bounce damage so armor is preferable after that. It is stupid and unintuitive, but it is what it is. Test it for yourself. Holy shit is this really true? I was sure + 1 attack only influenced the first target and not the bounce damage, isn't that why everyone gets armor first? I don't think it's common knowledge. As said, it is pretty unintuitive. Don't know if it's been changed, it wasn't a few weeks ago.
Hm i just tested it in the Hots unit tester, and at least numberwise you are correct. Bounce damage is affected by the +1 attack upgrade. Also in 3vs3 muta fights it was an even fight between +1 carapace and +1 attack, 1 muta would survive with 1-4hp on either side, that's due to the random delay factor in the attack animations.
However in larger fights the muta flock with the carapace upgrade always won. I can't explain it.
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On February 03 2013 07:53 kollin wrote:
I was just watching Idra's stream and he played a ZvZ against you I believe it was Blade. Both of you went for mutas, but Idra got attack for them over armor? Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd always thought armor was favored over attack for muta wars. What's the reasoning behind Idra getting attack if this is the case
Just watched the replay me and idra played and he got +1 carapace first.
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Huh, maybe I was thinking of a different game, but I'm certain there was a game he played where he went attack first ^^
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Ahhhh all this testing and thinking for nothing :D.
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yes developing strategical thinking will never be of any use in future patches
/facepalm
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Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
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On February 04 2013 06:29 Alpina wrote:
Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
hellbats arent early they actually come out almost as fast as a Thor
we cant really give you any advice unless you post the replay or a more detailed analysis of what happened
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On February 04 2013 12:50 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 06:29 Alpina wrote:
Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
hellbats arent early they actually come out almost as fast as a Thor we cant really give you any advice unless you post the replay or a more detailed analysis of what happened
I think i explained quite clearly everything.
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EPT
