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[G] TheStaircase - An Alternative Improvement Method - Pag…

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MinimalMagic
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark21 Posts
April 03 2013 14:44 GMT
#701
I can't seem to login to ggtracker.com the site comes up with this error ERROR 310 (net::ERR_TOO_MANY_REDIRECTS) both on chrome and firefox seems to have this problem when logging in. Am i doing something wrong?
dsjoerg
Profile Joined January 2012
United States384 Posts
April 03 2013 15:13 GMT
#702
On April 03 2013 23:44 MinimalMagic wrote:
I can't seem to login to ggtracker.com the site comes up with this error ERROR 310 (net::ERR_TOO_MANY_REDIRECTS) both on chrome and firefox seems to have this problem when logging in. Am i doing something wrong?


Hi, please PM me your login and I'll take a look. It's probably something specifically wrong with your account data that's causing login to fail. I just tried logging in myself and it worked fine.

One other thing you might try is going to http://ggtracker.com/matches and hitting the LOGIN button from there. But there's definitely some sort of bug.
card-carrying grubby fan. developer of GGTracker.
MotherFox
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-05 02:13:21
April 05 2013 02:12 GMT
#703
Hey Jak-

I started this a few weeks ago and have seen really great results in terms of both my understanding of why build orders are the way they are and league placement. I only just hit step 5, so up until now I've been only building zealots/stalkers with splashes of cannons if I scout cloaked stuff//early pressure and MSC whenever I feel like it--- but this also means I've basically just been 4gating rather than focusing on expanding. Now step 5 only has observers added on---

1) Should I be consciously trying to incorporate expansions into my play? Since I'm 4gating all my games tend to go 8-10 mins and then I either win or lose, but my spending has been keeping up for the most part. (Though I will say, incorporating gas into the build was a HUGE roadblock for me--- in steps 1/2 I had really subconciously developed a build order which took advantage of no gas, so when I added gas in my entire game went to hell...)

2) With only adding observers, should I be cranking them out for the sake of macro, or should I be incorporating them smartly the way I do with cannons and MSC? I feel like at this step in the staircase it's more a matter of pumping out as many stalkers/zealots as possible in order to win games. (Ie- having more stuff that shoots)

It just seems like a waste to build a Robo for just one or two obs.
Don't Panic
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 05 2013 03:20 GMT
#704
Your goals should be Supply Saturation and Spending.

Supply : as mentioned in the benchmarks

Saturation : 66 workers. 3 bases with 16 on the minerals and 3 on each gas (if you are not on a step where you can spend that much gas get less) You should try to expand to your 4th before your main runs out of minerals.

Spending: Spending Skill from ggtracker.com corresponding to your league goal.

We're working hard to get TheStaircase 6.0 out and ready for consumption as soon as possible. Concerning observers you should experiment as much as possible with the many uses of observers, build as many as is useful to you (at least 1).
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
MotherFox
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-05 04:00:45
April 05 2013 03:58 GMT
#705
I understand how avoiding supply blocks and keeping my spending rating up can work with consistency (do both for 3 games given the current set of units---both can be accomplished for any length of game over 6 mins), but how does that work with Saturation? Not all games will last long enough for me to build up to and maintain 3 bases--- are there timing marks I should be aiming for? Or should a game simply not count if I never get up to three bases? (And up until now I've been using Energy use on my nexuses as a benchmark, since that too scales with any >6min game as well)
Don't Panic
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 05 2013 14:31 GMT
#706
Saturation should just be a general goal. If you don't make it to 3 bases, it doesn't mean you fail, but you should be trying for efficient saturation.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
MotherFox
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States1529 Posts
April 05 2013 16:11 GMT
#707
Why are levels 13 and 15 highlighted yellow for the protoss buildings unlocked?
Don't Panic
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 05 2013 19:43 GMT
#708
That was the latest change we made. I have removed the yellow to avoid confusion.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 05 2013 21:15 GMT
#709
Okay! Here's the latest idea I've been tossing around for 6.0:

Mineral Step - You may only harvest minerals. Attack-move blindly against AI.

Step 1 - Choose any 1 unit, you may build only this unit (in addition to workers, overlords, mothership core and detectors)
Step 2 - Choose any 2 units
Step 3 - Choose any 3 units
etc

When you have passed a step with each unit you have completed TheStaircase.

This allows for a very fast (5 step) run through of all the units, or a very slow one (up to 16) depending on the users preference. It also functions as a fun creative exercise to see which units work well together. This also means that a zerg player can start step 1 on roaches, or a protoss on stalkers if they want to.

What do you all think?
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
alcaras
Profile Joined July 2010
United States67 Posts
April 06 2013 12:03 GMT
#710
I like having specific units, organized by power/difficulty rating.

It removes choice and replaces it with focus. Otherwise "omg what units should I use." Whereas "ah, I must use just zerglings. Okay, I can add banelings. Okay, I can add roaches." Also, there's a sense of achievement: "I've made it to be able to use roaches!"

Also, because you start out with "non-viable" units (pure slow ling, pure slow zealot, stimless marines) it reinforces that this is not about winning or losing -- this is about getting better. Plus you get some hilarious games where you end up winning through sheer overwhelming macro -- and that's great fun!

What's the point of TheStaircase (is there a reason there's no space between those two words?) if it just lets you do whatever you want? What are your goals for the 6.0 revision?
http://subcreation.net/ http://twitch.tv/alcaras/
kingneckbeard
Profile Joined January 2012
United States24 Posts
April 06 2013 15:24 GMT
#711
I like the changes, Jak! Making it simpler and quicker seems like a good thing to go for.

My only comment would be that for me, TheStaircase has been about learning macro and about forcing myself to use all the units effectively -- forcing me away from using the units I am most comfortable with. I feel like the latter may be lost a bit if I did the quick run through, perhaps only using something like Phoenix in the 5 units at a time step and never being forced to learn to use them in the most effective ways because I'm able to fall back on the other 4 units I already know pretty well.

Perhaps capping it at a max of 3 units at a time would be in line with your goals of making it simpler and quicker to get through (7 steps vs. 16) while still forcing the user to learn to use each unit well and in ways that we may not have learned to otherwise. It would be a shame to get through TheStaircase and not know how to Phoenix harass. On the other hand, since the user is able to go through this however we want, maybe this shouldn't be a concern at all.

Can't wait to see this on ggtracker! I'll be paying for it Thanks for all the hard work!
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 06 2013 17:00 GMT
#712
I think that TheStaircase has been rooted in making the learning of Starcraft more fun through autonomy, allowing the player to choose the units in some way is taking another step in that direction. I don't think we can prevent someone from "beating the system" and getting through without learning phoenix harass or something similar. I do like the idea of capping it at some point. 3 might be the magic number, maybe 4.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
MotherFox
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States1529 Posts
April 06 2013 18:57 GMT
#713
It seems like the issue is just individual preference--- I'm playing a lot of 2v2 games with a friend and we're both going through the system. I'm the kind of guy who likes painstakingly doing every achievement on the hardest difficulty in games--- he's the kind who wants to sit back and just get through all the steps without necessarily mastering each one. Maybe this is represented in league preferences, but it's the difference between someone who wants 5 quick and easy steps and someone who wants a 16 step program with an in-depth exploration of each step.
Don't Panic
noachr
Profile Joined August 2011
United States7 Posts
April 07 2013 03:31 GMT
#714
The improvements to ggtracker are fantastic! I am loving the base and chronoboost graphs.
roksteady
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4 Posts
April 07 2013 07:25 GMT
#715
@MotherFox,

I had similar experiences where I was just 4 gating and the games would be a win/lose situation or we'd move into a late game situation where my opponent would tech and I would mass gateway units.

While I do like the new format of the Staircase spreadsheet better, I get concerned about what others have mentioned about not learned how to properly harass or use the units I should effectively. Perhaps this is the reason for the new order so by the time you get to say Pheonix and Oracle you will be able to better utilize the units?

I am one of the people that likes to master each step also and I'm incredibly hard on myself in terms of not letting myself move on until I have properly executed the step I'm on.

Jak,

My question is during this process should we try and incorporate building placement as well or is that kind of up to each person and how we want to use the staircase method to meet our personal goals?

Thanks again for all the work you put into this!
My life for Pylo
Clagus
Profile Joined April 2013
4 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-07 09:18:41
April 07 2013 09:16 GMT
#716
omg i posted in wrong topic -.-
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 07 2013 22:13 GMT
#717
@roksteady
Building Placement is something that I have, and will continue to make videos etc about and give people advice on, but I don't think its necessary as an integral part of TheStaircase. I do think, however, that it is very important.

Do you think we'll have to put in a restriction that doesn't allow a pass if the player stays on one base in order to ensure a good learning process?
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
April 07 2013 22:16 GMT
#718
Don't you have it implicitly? By saying "you may not count games with average income less than X", are you not in a sense already requiring at least 2 base play? (Or at least a ton of long distance mining :p).
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 07 2013 23:21 GMT
#719
@Ninjury

good point... I have to make sure that ggtracker will be taking that into account.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Becuula
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany65 Posts
April 08 2013 07:58 GMT
#720
Unfortunately I have problems using ggtracker. If I upload a replay vs ai it doesn't show my spending skill. How can I fix that?
http://ggtracker.com/matches/2704049

Then there is a random list of my games I didn't upload. What games should be on that list?
It is difficulties which give birth to miracles.
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