EPT[G] TheStaircase - An Alternative Improvement Method - Pag…
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Toph Nasty
United States15 Posts
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arie3000
153 Posts
Could you upload the map to the EU server by any chance? I'm sure quite a few euri's are interested in your method, and trying the maps. I like your method for people who want to be really good, but for me (v. casual player, only play on the weekend, and by far not every) I like to play 'smart', which means that with inferiour mechanics but better positioning/unit composition you can still beat the opponents. Scouting and reacting properly are for me the things that make the game fun, I've tried 2-base all-in cookie-cutter builds, and they work but it is kinda a hit-and-mis story, and even if you win, it just isn't so much fun... But I'm more than willing to see where I stand in terms of efficiency, and play a couple of games with 'lings-only', although some T/P players just like to turtle like a madman and only move-out with a maxed 3/3 army - a bit hard to win with lings-only... maybe in 30min+cases you should maybe unlock ultra's too, since they're just 'large lings'.  I really, really liked the video in the OP btw, some people at work were talking about this, on how to improve the motivation of co-workers... | ||
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=388968 | ||
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immoralist
Germany9 Posts
On December 19 2012 09:00 arie3000 wrote: Could you upload the map to the EU server by any chance? I'm sure quite a few euri's are interested in your method, and trying the maps. Just try it on Ladder. It's more fun than custom maps or vs AI. On the plus side: You stop caring about winning. Even Ling only will win you a lot of games and every time you lose, you can congratulate the opponent on winning against Ling only. But I'm more than willing to see where I stand in terms of efficiency, and play a couple of games with 'lings-only', although some T/P players just like to turtle like a madman and only move-out with a maxed 3/3 army - a bit hard to win with lings-only... maybe in 30min+cases you should maybe unlock ultra's too, since they're just 'large lings'. Winning isn't the point and shouldn't be. I know, that is hard to get into ones mind and "But I want to have fun and winning is fun, losing is not" is set in stone for some (or most?) players. I am working on the "play to improve not to win"-attitude since I started playing sc2 ~1 year ago and know how frustrating losing streaks can be. This Staircase thing is the first thing that really gives me tools to messure my progress and my improvement and I have tried and used anything I could find on the internet: dApollo, filtersc, recorded coaching sessions, copying builds and playing them over and over... The problem with those methods is: If you hit your timing you can crush you opponent but most if not all lower and mid league players stop or minimize their production while moving out for a timing. So if you don't kill your enemy with the timing, you are likely to lose the game because now you are way behind. (as you wrote it yourself: "it is kinda a hit-and-mis story, and even if you win, it just isn't so much fun... ") tl;dr: just try it on ladder. you have nothing to lose (except for some ladder points which shouldn't be cared about in the first place) | ||
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BerthaG
France74 Posts
No fun | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
On December 19 2012 14:56 Zozma wrote: This could be useful to you guys. Looks like they compiled some good data on SQ by league: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=388968 We're working with GGTracker to have TheStaircase upgraded and integrated for HotS. Its going to be so much better than it is now, because your league goals will very accurately match the skill level of the league you're aiming for due to the mass data analysis available with GGTracker. The more people use GGTracker, the more accurate it gets  And you can integrate with Sc2gears if you get a pro account! Its such a valuable tool. | ||
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Sickan
Sweden19 Posts
Some of my games (after using TheStaircase): http://spendingq.com/graph/Sickan | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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phrenzy
United Kingdom478 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
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Sickan
Sweden19 Posts
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arie3000
153 Posts
On December 19 2012 18:45 immoralist wrote: Just try it on Ladder. It's more fun than custom maps or vs AI. On the plus side: You stop caring about winning. Even Ling only will win you a lot of games and every time you lose, you can congratulate the opponent on winning against Ling only. Winning isn't the point and shouldn't be. I know, that is hard to get into ones mind and "But I want to have fun and winning is fun, losing is not" is set in stone for some (or most?) players. I am working on the "play to improve not to win"-attitude since I started playing sc2 ~1 year ago and know how frustrating losing streaks can be. This Staircase thing is the first thing that really gives me tools to messure my progress and my improvement and I have tried and used anything I could find on the internet: dApollo, filtersc, recorded coaching sessions, copying builds and playing them over and over... The problem with those methods is: If you hit your timing you can crush you opponent but most if not all lower and mid league players stop or minimize their production while moving out for a timing. So if you don't kill your enemy with the timing, you are likely to lose the game because now you are way behind. (as you wrote it yourself: "it is kinda a hit-and-mis story, and even if you win, it just isn't so much fun... ") tl;dr: just try it on ladder. you have nothing to lose (except for some ladder points which shouldn't be cared about in the first place) Do you play on the EU server under the same name, in Silver league by any chance? I recently played someone from Germany with your name, I think... Anyway, I tried it yesterday. It felt a bit weird, if I'm honest. I liked the focus on macro, but I don't like to play autistically, and this is what promotes this. Just randomly throw stuff at your opponent, and if you have more, you win. For me, to think-and-respond is the fun part, and this approach takes this a little away. The first few games went alright, won a few, lost a few, they all didn't last more than 15 minutes. If a game gets drawn-out more, the fun with only lings diminishes quickly. There's no decision making, no scouting, no nothing. I like analyzing my SQ, (I also analyze my MMR with the Skeldark SC2gears plugin to analyze my 'progress') and setting limits on queen energy and hard supply blocks are very usefull, as is the exercise with no opponent and queen-only, but taking away the fun from the game did honestly not really appeal to me... | ||
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immoralist
Germany9 Posts
On December 20 2012 18:38 arie3000 wrote: Do you play on the EU server under the same name, in Silver league by any chance? I recently played someone from Germany with your name, I think... Yep, that was me, if I just streamed you with lings. Gold league but matched vs Silver-Plat. I understand that just a-moving lings feels "numb" and kind of stupid. You feel that you lose way more games than you have to because just microing a little would have helped in that one engamement or with the opponents wall or this and that unit type would have brought you an easy win because it would have been a hardcounter - And you are right! The thing is: This is a learning "tool" - You improve your macro/mechanics and after that you return to "think-and-respond" but now you are able to respond much better and win much more games. You don't switch your entire style to zombie mode a-move forever... A little "reward" is gained every second Level: After you only can build and a-move Lings you "gain" micro with your lings. Now you have 2 challenges: 1. Micro your lings to get the maximum out of them and learn what a ling-only army can or can't handle 2. still hit your macro/mechanic benchmarks. But I have to admit: A 20+ minute game gets kind of boring and at 20 minutes every opponent realizes what's going on and hardcounters your Lings. Plus: the latest SQ analysis shows that for zergs SQ tends to lower over time, so I don't know how well TheStaircase scales with like 30+ minute games... | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
immoralist sums it up very well. It is important to keep in mind that you will only be at the "ling only a-move" stage for 1 step. Once you're hitting your benchmarks consistently, its time to move on. Also, feel free to leave a game if it becomes unfun, too long, or hopeless. You still get your benchmarks for that game. We're working with Sc2gears to deliver better benchmarks, for now, we'll have straight SQ, but later on we'll have your spending skill automatically arranged by league from SQ in relation to time and you won't even have to enter any data. Just alt+tab to your ggtracker and see the bronze-GM icon under your spending skill (as well as under your other benchmarks. When you see all your benchmarks are above or at your goal for that game, you'll know it's a pass (and will likely tell you so) and can try for 2 more in a row to move on to the next step! Thanks for your feedback :D | ||
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mtszyk
21 Posts
On December 20 2012 18:38 arie3000 wrote: Anyway, I tried it yesterday. It felt a bit weird, if I'm honest. I liked the focus on macro, but I don't like to play autistically, and this is what promotes this. Just randomly throw stuff at your opponent, and if you have more, you win. For me, to think-and-respond is the fun part, and this approach takes this a little away. The first few games went alright, won a few, lost a few, they all didn't last more than 15 minutes. If a game gets drawn-out more, the fun with only lings diminishes quickly. There's no decision making, no scouting, no nothing. I like analyzing my SQ, (I also analyze my MMR with the Skeldark SC2gears plugin to analyze my 'progress') and setting limits on queen energy and hard supply blocks are very usefull, as is the exercise with no opponent and queen-only, That's kind of the point. It's a learning tool for macro, then in step two as illusionist said you learn what ling armies can and can't handle. You also learn how effective or ineffective ling drops are against certain armies, and as used to get into bases. If you're not scouting that's on you, though. You should still always know what your opponent is doing. If you're in step 2, you can just never engage his army, but use drops and lings speed all around to do your best anyway. That was a ton of fun for me. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
On December 21 2012 01:55 mtszyk wrote: That's kind of the point. It's a learning tool for macro, then in step two as illusionist said you learn what ling armies can and can't handle. You also learn how effective or ineffective ling drops are against certain armies, and as used to get into bases. If you're not scouting that's on you, though. You should still always know what your opponent is doing. If you're in step 2, you can just never engage his army, but use drops and lings speed all around to do your best anyway. That was a ton of fun for me. And don't forget Creep Spread!!! Making/Microing lings while spreading creep and injecting constantly is no easy task for most people. Zerglings are soooo powerful with a map full of creep. Surrounding your opponent, running by and making his army turn around, lots of opportunities for decision making with this step, as long as you get creative :D Also, This particular step no longer has drops, it has been returned to a mineral only step so that the player isn't too overwhelmed with the masses of tech structures and gas management that really shouldn't come until step 3. | ||
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shenlong
219 Posts
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Wraithan
United States18 Posts
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esToDo
United States14 Posts
On December 21 2012 02:18 JaKaTaK wrote: Also, This particular step no longer has drops, it has been returned to a mineral only step so that the player isn't too overwhelmed with the masses of tech structures and gas management that really shouldn't come until step 3. I think you should place a one or two gas restriction for the first step of zerg (if not all races). Learning gas management isn't something that should wait imo. It's really not that hard when you only have one unit and thus limited upgrades, but it is important. That way, Z could keep the ability to research ling speed and 2/2, and could start playing with drops in step 2, which again, would be much more beneficial than not being able to. And, if you were allow it for the other races, T could start thinking about reactor/tech lab compositions from the get-go, and P could research warp gate to allow them to do fancier/funner stuff in step 2 (of course this would mean moving cyber core to step 1). This would also help P learn how many warpgates is the "correct" amount from the first step. Rather than building mass gateway, which is something they'll never do again. | ||
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Nightmare739
3 Posts
However, I noticed that in the custom game, in order to win against a zerg opponent, you need to clean up every creep tumor. I wonder if that's meant to be like this or if it's a bug. Thank you so much! | ||
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