EPT[D] Mutas in TvZ Mech - Page 3
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
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Thermodynamic
Canada10 Posts
On October 05 2012 22:57 iaguz wrote: Mutas aren't entirely unreasonable vs mech for a few reasons. First off they make being out on the map extremely difficult for terran as he has to have a few thors to fight mutas it's the only thing he has that can do it, which makes hellions and banshee movements very difficult. If you don't have mutas or corruptors then banshees can go basically anywhere and it's very costly for infestors to fight banshees. Second sometimes you can win for free. I've lost to mutas countless times when attempting mech because it hit earlier then I expected and I'm fucked. It sucks. The Life vs MKP game is a completely valid example of this. Third is muta/corrupter roach. Thors naturally target the muta/corrupter and they take ages to clear it so if the Terran has overmade thors and doesn't have enough siege tanks then you can break him with muta/roach timings. These can be tricky too. And obviosuly you can make a greater spire a little easier later, maybe fit in an upgrade or two beforehand if you want. The weakness to muta play in this context is that mutas are very costly and don't do very well at actually just fighting mech units but you can transition into something that does easily as long as you've been droning well and deflecting harassment properly. I agree that later in the game mutas are a bad idea, but with a meching terran you usually can get away with a 2 base defence with evo's queens and crawlers. This opens up the 11-12 minute muta timing push that is very devastating to terran mech because they are so reliant on expanding to their third base. If you use the early mutalisk to herass the terran and keep him on his toes before he takes his third you are free to macro into your third and fourth bases relatively faster than him while keeping his worker and siege tank count down. In addition if he over reacts it forces him to lose ~ 500 minerals ~160 true cost engi bay and ~ 120 a missle turret (estimating) to defend himself. He will be forced to make a thor first which opens up for a transition into infestor ling which can further contribute to your control of the map and limit his third base if you do it quickly enough. This is empirically based but I have not done any real math or calculations as to the true effectiveness of it, only low diamond. | ||
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Silencioseu
Cyprus493 Posts
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Stormgear
12 Posts
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Dontkillme
Korea (South)806 Posts
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ailouros
United States193 Posts
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scph
Korea (South)262 Posts
On October 08 2012 00:02 Blamajama wrote: I am mid masters terran who frequently hears zergs complaining about the mech deathball which I always go with. I have tried to incorporate Banshee helion builds, but I like the proxy port, and that is too easily scouted by a drifting lord. Sometimes I see a hydralisk response if I stick with it. One time I saw something different. Corruptor/roach pretty much owns it because it is a direct hard counter to everything I have. That is why I have stopped incorporating Banshee rushes/harass. Just puts me behind everywhere else. Do terrans see this response at all? Also, why do zergs never use the building contaminate with the Overseers? That thing is an absolute killer. Seems HotS seems to be getting rid of that. I never build any turrents in TvZ and Overseers have free roam, yet they are always dropping an obvious fake marine, or whatever those things are called... even though they have all the scouting info they need. You do realize that if you're going mech and you don't incorporate harass, zerg will just bank up on gas, take control of the whole map, and get their deathball that much faster, right? The point of banshees and helions is to contain the zerg on three bases so they don't just expand and power drone for 10 minutes and then have the income and tech for broodlords at 14 minutes. They'll be forced to use minerals and gas on something early on in order to get that fourth and fifth because they know they can't possibly win vs mech with only 3 bases. I can see going banshees slowing you down slightly, but doing nothing and just going for the 200/200 puts you behind even more. Zerg, if left alone, will always have the stronger late game. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On October 08 2012 06:36 scph wrote: You do realize that if you're going mech and you don't incorporate harass, zerg will just bank up on gas, take control of the whole map, and get their deathball that much faster, right? The point of banshees and helions is to contain the zerg on three bases so they don't just expand and power drone for 10 minutes and then have the income and tech for broodlords at 14 minutes. They'll be forced to use minerals and gas on something early on in order to get that fourth and fifth because they know they can't possibly win vs mech with only 3 bases. I can see going banshees slowing you down slightly, but doing nothing and just going for the 200/200 puts you behind even more. Zerg, if left alone, will always have the stronger late game. I agree with you that you need the hellions and banshees to force him to make units, static d, and remake drones and stuff, but disagree that zerg has the edge lategame. The longer the game goes the more production facillities you add on, the bigger your macro cycle gets, to the point that you can almost match the zerg in terms of supply per cycle, and with more efficient units and production buildings that dont need babysitting (and can queue units) I think zergs big edge is in the midgame, when they can choose to go greedy or make a ton of units bc townhalls are their production too, while T has to add many more buildings/addons. To say nothing of zerg having probably the smallest max army supply. | ||
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Blamajama
156 Posts
On the other hand, the early helion harass does wonders for me against protoss because the creep doesn't slow me down and they catch up easily to my marine unit. Early scouting stalkers are toasted. Against speed lings, they require too much attention. | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
On October 08 2012 07:54 rikter wrote: I agree with you that you need the hellions and banshees to force him to make units, static d, and remake drones and stuff, but disagree that zerg has the edge lategame. The longer the game goes the more production facillities you add on, the bigger your macro cycle gets, to the point that you can almost match the zerg in terms of supply per cycle, and with more efficient units and production buildings that dont need babysitting (and can queue units) I think zergs big edge is in the midgame, when they can choose to go greedy or make a ton of units bc townhalls are their production too, while T has to add many more buildings/addons. To say nothing of zerg having probably the smallest max army supply. It completely depends on the map and what you consider "late game" to be. Zerg has a huge edge from the time hive pops until you've managed to re-gain control of the game, if ever. I'd consider it being Zerg has the advantage late game, and Terran has the advantage ULTRA late game, but it's still map dependent. As for mutas, it really depends on what your opening is. If you're not playing an ultra-greedy mech opening you can hold off muta harass pretty easily, and once you get a 2/2 mech army you can just roll over any ling/muta/infestor or similar comp. However, opening with 6-12 mutas and then going straight towards roaches is something you'll commonly see from players like Idra, and I feel that it's a pretty good way to deal with harass from banshees/hellions/drops (if you happened to be going bio/biomech), put some pressure on the Terran, and get a free win every once in a while. It also gives you a early spire for things like faster upgrades, tech switches, etc. Overall I'd say that muta openings that open with <15 (usually 12 or less) mutas are still pretty good if executed correctly, but I don't think they're as good as opening infestors. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On October 08 2012 08:24 Skwid1g wrote: It completely depends on the map and what you consider "late game" to be. Zerg has a huge edge from the time hive pops until you've managed to re-gain control of the game, if ever. I'd consider it being Zerg has the advantage late game, and Terran has the advantage ULTRA late game, but it's still map dependent. As for mutas, it really depends on what your opening is. If you're not playing an ultra-greedy mech opening you can hold off muta harass pretty easily, and once you get a 2/2 mech army you can just roll over any ling/muta/infestor or similar comp. However, opening with 6-12 mutas and then going straight towards roaches is something you'll commonly see from players like Idra, and I feel that it's a pretty good way to deal with harass from banshees/hellions/drops (if you happened to be going bio/biomech), put some pressure on the Terran, and get a free win every once in a while. It also gives you a early spire for things like faster upgrades, tech switches, etc. Overall I'd say that muta openings that open with <15 (usually 12 or less) mutas are still pretty good if executed correctly, but I don't think they're as good as opening infestors. I have less problems with zerg hive tech than I do the lair tech. Once the hive goes down just add a few starports and techlab barracks (if bio) and you are good to go. I love to see zerg dumping huge resources into T3 when I mech, since your basic comp does well against both BL and the Ultra switch. Tanks zone out infestors, thors obliterate the corruptors, and then a single viking for the broods, both tnk and thor do well vs ultras. I think Terrans disadvantage vs zerg is that it takes much longer to set up an infrastructure that can match the potential of z (this potential is where the zerg midgame advantage comes from, bc you cant tell what his comp will look like based off his production like you can vs T or P, or even if he is intending to make drones or dudes to come kill you) but once the infrastructure is in place it doesnt matter that it took longer to get because now that its here youre ok. By 15 min you should be in good shape production-wise and it just gets better from there. I consider 15+ lategame btw. The map comments are true, but thats a topic for another post. Hellion banshee gives you the best idea of what hes doing so you can tweak your comp a bit. The biggest thing for me with mutas is that they deny my abillity to poke around basically risk free, and without pokes to see what hes actually doing im more likely to get caught off gaurd. Off gaurd is bad enough, off gaurd with a slow unsieged mech army is fatal, and I really dont like to scan zerg until its time to check for hive. | ||
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SCRedditor
United States57 Posts
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Discarder
Philippines411 Posts
and get roach upgrades and infestors later on. The "how many mutas" did he make is really a big question". You see gas is being budgeted here. | ||
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LordImmortala
Korea (South)41 Posts
But I like to get 2barracks, then use 1 to build addons for factories, then the second one to get a reactor to produce marines. I usually just get 1 thor out, the use the marines fro reactor, (I can get usually get about14-18)to hold off the first muta attack, then get my turrets and morw thora up | ||
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enykie
Germany64 Posts
At least an ebay should be placed for emergency towers and like someone here said, instant pushout. Perhaps Hellions into natural and banshees cloacked into main, while building rocket towers everywhere. | ||
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RandomAccount#216215
76 Posts
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Rasper
United Kingdom25 Posts
On October 08 2012 04:57 Stormgear wrote: If you don't have the Thor ready and have basically just hellions and banshees, the proper response to a high muta count hitting your base is to run into his and try to kill as much as possible, while your SCVs run around till Thor is ready to pop. The hellions will die if they stay in your base, so might as well send them to try and even the damage to his drones. Banshees same way, take out his queens and if you can the spire. If you can survive the initial push, your Thors once upgraded shred mutas. It's not a bad idea to make an Eng bay during the time you put up the third CC (seven min or so). When you push out, you'll want the turret ring anyway because Thors are too slow to run back and defend if he swoops in once you hit mid field. You do realise mutas hard counter helion/banshee? While it may keep the mutas out of your base and buy you time a smart player will clean up the helions/banshee first before harassing. | ||
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osiris17
United States165 Posts
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On October 08 2012 17:22 enykie wrote: I recognized that most terrans that do an hellion/banshee into mech opening are absurd greedy. I lost 2 games were i went infestors, because of their insane eco and checked the replays and saw, that they never really have anti air (3-6 marines @ 10-11 minutes). Then I startet doing 2 base muta against this and allways get easy wins. (but its diamond level) At least an ebay should be placed for emergency towers and like someone here said, instant pushout. Perhaps Hellions into natural and banshees cloacked into main, while building rocket towers everywhere. When I mech I sometimes make as little as 2 marines, just to have in a bunker at my nat. Unless youre getting all ind or busted its fine. The money that you would spend on marines you spend on turrets since the muta timing can really hurt if you arent prepared, and my thors dont start popping until shortly after the mutas hit. Even if he goes infestors you still need/want some turrets anyways so no big deal. Its just not good to build a bunch of units you have no plans of upgrading. Just dont build too many mutas or throw them away for nothing. Use them kind of like how T uses hellions. | ||
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
First, I'd like to make one point, the original poster, wteffect, is Aussie. Lastshadow is a fellow Yank. DKR, a Brit. So first, before we argue the "current meta" let's all realize we're probably on different servers with different metas at the moment. Well, I generally go for ling bling muta, ling bling at first with melee carapace ups, and the second I figure out the terran is going hellion banshee, I'm sprinting for a spire and a smallish flock of 6-12 mutas. Now, lastshadow claims this is a "I hope the terran screws up" kind of move, and DKR claims infestors are better... Now, as for the comments of lastshadow, I respectfully disagree, but then it depends on how they're used. True, we Zerg hope for the best, that we'll catch you with your pants down and kill those 1-2 thors, and any scv scrabbling to put up any "oh-shit turrets". However, we can quickly figure out if there's not going to be much of an immediate return on our investment, and if we're paying attention and wise, we'll get the heck out of Dodge and instead keep you from expanding easily and catch any medevacs/hellions/banshees trying to move out. Now, this whole time, we should be expecting that either the flock will succeed, or be denied, or recovered against and prevented from being a direct threat anymore, and so the best bet regardless is to meanwhile go for infestors into hive while taking a 4th during the muta harrass. Now, I generally get 1-2 ups during the time from when my spire first hits the ground until i get the gspire in production. This makes my broods for my brood/infestor ball that much more potent. Also, the mutas should slow down the meching terran, perhaps buying you some time to get to hive, AND, if you keep them alive, can defend your broods against vikings. Now, the alternative, which isnt entirely bad, is straight into infestor and then to hive and gspire. This is decent too, but it's more vulnerable to harrassment while your infestors are low on energy, and personally i prefer mutas vs banshees than infestors vs banshees, but to each their own. Infestors are a good investment, if you can afford them, but they're not an immediate assistant like the muta is, thus investing in a few mutas before the infestor into hive transition is arguable safer. But now that we have them out, might as well go poking around right? But DONT accuse us of making "herp-derp mutas", or thinking, "Gee golly, I sure hope deese here mutas do somethin and it weren't a waste dere, Jim..." | ||
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