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I was watching Liquid Sea's stream a moment ago (congrats to both him and Team Liquid, by the way  ), and one of the TvZs he played reminded me of a trend I've been seeing in TvZ when the Terran plays hellion banshee into mech.
As they have been out of favour for a while now when compared to the infestor, Mutalisks, when used, seem incredibly effective. This mostly comes out of the double armory play, and the fact that Terran's just aren't building Engineering Bays anymore becasue there is no need for Bio Upgrades. Because of this, the standard Mutalisk timing (potentially delayed by some harrass) hits when the Terran anti-air consists of 1 or 2 Thors at most. This obviously isn't enough to prevent the Mutas from killing everything, and the Thors are easily magic boxed anyway. As a result, I'm starting to see a lot of TvZs where the Terran just straight out loses to Mutalisk Transitions.
Edit: GSL Ro8 Example/results:
+ Show Spoiler +This was also one of the reasons (not the only reason) MKP lost in Game 4 to Life in the GSL RO8, the Mutalisk transition caught him with only 1 Thor out, and with magic boxing, the mutas were able to kill a huge amount of SCVs.
So my question is, if this becomes more common in the matchup, how is it dealt with? I know that the obvious answer is to scout the Spire and build an Ebay and turrets, but the problem is that with Thors being your only Anti Air, you would need a huge amount of turrets to prevent the Mutas from not only killing SCVs, but killing your Thors, destroying add-ons, supply depots etc.
I can see something like a viking response occuring (after one or two banshees, reactor the Starport and make vikings), but Vikings aren't really effective against Mutas. Or maybe we'll see players continue to produce marines out of their one barracks, though without upgrades, they won't be that effective either.
Just wondering what the community thinks
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This isn't rare or even uncommon.
On ladder it's incredibly common to see mutas these days in ZvT and they do usually hit when there's only 2 thors. You have to pull to repair and make sure your scouting is up to par so you have the eBay in time.
The only time I've ever died to it (I only play mech) is when they'll do those damn Zergling attacks while they're going up to a third which can just disrupt the hell out of my natural and cause me to not have enough resources.
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This is in the wrong section, but I've encountered it a lot.
When I play mech TvZ, it is common for me to miss the spire scout, and not make adequate defenses and just lose straight up to a little muta harass. It is so bad that I have even started telling Zerg friends to build an infestation pit in their base (in an obvious location), while pooping creep in some random base and hiding a spire. It is completely worth it as the scouting of an infestation pit means even fewer (if any) thors are made, and next to no turrets are built.
The only real ways to deal with it while remaining pure mech are either to just pump thors from the start (risky because it loses to roach timings pretty easily) or scout everywhere and just mass turrets as soon as you find a spire or a muta. The latter method is surprisingly effective and it not that bad for your econ, as most meching terrans bank minerals and are starved for gas.
The main reasons I wouldn't advocate for a viking build are that 1.: It loses straight up to pretty much any other type of attack that a zerg could do, and 2.: vikings are absolutely terrible vs muta.
In the end, I would recommend simply lining your mineral line and tech/production with a decent amount of turrets (wont give a number because I honestly don't know it and it would depend on map and simcity), while getting some thors whenever you see a spire. It is worth it to waste scans, banshees, hellions, or whatever else to find that damn spire; because if you don't you will probably lose the game.
Be sure not to over make thors, as the zerg can just switch into roach and win. Also keep up your upgrades.
Credentials: highish masters terran.
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You don't make mutalisks, because making mutalisks is relying on your opponent to mess up, rather than anything you're doing actually being proactive or beneficial. This isn't a good way to approach the game and it certainly is not an ideal or correct way to think.
There is so many loopholes that basically show you're going mutas, that the Terran will just laugh and be prepared. You don't see ebays being made, because the T sees mutas are not possible.
When you watch pro-games you have to understand that the pro-gamers eyes sees much much much more than what you see. It's not as simple as you make it seem.
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I would put the results for GSL in a spoiler tag.
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Honestly the muta transition's effectiveness will depend on how good the early game harass from terran was.
The standard Reactor Helion into banshee can be really effective and if the damage is enough then the mutas will come out when terran has had enough time to adequately prepare.
Tbh it seems strange to skip turrets at all. Roach drops are a big threat as are mutas and so having turrets is a deterrent to both of these
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On October 04 2012 23:48 ReMiiX wrote:
This is in the wrong section, but I've encountered it a lot.
Yeah, I kinda realised after I posted. If a mod wants to move this, no problem.
But I'm not asking for help. Where I play (Diamond), it is completely fine to spam static defence because you don't need to maximise the efficency of every mineral, simply because people's macro just isn't that good (and Mech floats minerals )
I'm kinda more interested in the Theorycrafting, and I understand what you're saying LastShadow, but I'm still seeing a lot of Pro games where this sort of thing happens. Either the Mutas straight up win the game, of give the zerg a huuuge advantage.
Edit: GSL Ro8 Example/results:
+ Show Spoiler +The MKP vs. Life example probably wasn't the best because Life was taxing MKPs multitasking with constant ling runbys etc. which would have made it harder for him to work out what was coming and respond to it.
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Even when Mutas do damage, the meching terran player will eventually fend them off with thors, and at that point all the money you've spent on mutas to do damage will be useless because you'll have a 2/2 mech army walking across the map erasing everything else in it's path
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Well, Taeja did mentioned that he wanted to go mech in TvZ but decided against it since Leenock tends to go mutas more than other Zs. And Taeja said early mutas are a problem for mech.
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Mutas are mainly a response to the current TvZ meta of hellion-banshee openers. Without mutas, itll be very hard for zerg to maintain a map presence. Lastshadow said that it relies on the opponent to mess up a lot. The thing is, hellion banshee isnt something easy to control. It requires heavy attention, and simply overmaking them is highly risky.
The thing is, from what I feel, banshees cannot counter roaches forever, and the minute you decide to stop making hellions from the factory you have to deal with a hard choice - thors or tanks. In low numbers, thors cannot deal with a roach response, especially when the terran has to make a fast third too in order to maintain mech production. Its common to see terran take a ton of damage to a two prong attack (roach muta) when they overmake hellion-banshees and ended up not having enough defense. Even pros make this mistake sometimes. hellion-banshee into mech is something that is still relatively new on the metagame, and zergs have not fully explored all responses possible to these kind of openers.
Early mutas is a massive problem for mech because there isnt any marines to counter them with. Thors can only do so much before they simply get boxed and killed, forcing them to stay further inside. Overmaking thors risk a mass roach response, something that terrans cannot handle without a critical tank count.
Now, hellion banshee into mmt tho....
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you'll see MVP get an eng bay around when his 2nd and 3rd facts begin, so he can have turrets up as the thors pop out to try and minimize the damage. The mutas are bound to do samage vs this style, but the idea is to minimize it enough that they dont do enough damage to undo your hellion/banshee harass ( or at least keep it even)
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To stop this completely you have to skip cloak so you have enough gas to make your factories earlier.
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In fact, muta are good in ZvT.
They usually are not there to do direct economic damage like in the first years of Sc2 ZvT. If they can it's good but that's not the point. Especially against mech.
Muta = Defend against hellion/Banshee, magic Box the first(s) Thors, makes the terran produce even more Thors and turrets. As you have map control, if the mecher is sending Hellions to grill drones, you can send your lings to kill SCVs and Thors. And keep Roach/Queens at home to defend.
Once mass Thors on the way, you send waves of Roach = Kill Thors and especially Hellions and SCVs, the mecher overproduce Tanks = you makes lings and mutas again. It's a great way do deal with mech, it delays hive tech for long, but if you're doing well: You can tech switch for a VERY long time between Lings/Roachs and Mutas while taking bases and not being too worry about hellions run bys with good map awareness. And it's much more fun to play than Fast Hive.
Against bioplay, it defend well against drops, and 2-2 Ling/Bling/Muta timings makes slaughters even in Code S recently.
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You see Mutas a lot when you mech. Most Terran will get an E-bay so they can build a lot of towers; playing mech results in a hell of a lot of excess minerals. Turrets are a great sink.
On October 05 2012 19:48 DuckNuked wrote:
In fact, muta are good in ZvT.
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Against bioplay, it defend well against drops, and 2-2 Ling/Bling/Muta timings makes slaughters even in Code S recently.
99% of Terran players are more scared of infestors in both Bio and Mech play. DRG getting Taeja rolled should tell you that. DRG's fall from grace has largely been down to his seeming inability to develop with the current Meta game. Leenock had the same problem.
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when I play Mech I never skip EB thors are your AA and you need to be getting them out but neglecting turrets is silly
means its hard to move out to either take another base or attack means you need to spread your thors when you want them with your army and it also means you have less detection as again you want your ravens with your army
also going in to late game PF turret range is good and so is building armor (some times its best to get this early if zerg is playing a heavy ling harras style)
also if you attack the 3rd with hellion banshee and you kill it or do lot of damage due to lack of defending force its a pretty good tell he is rushing muta's even without a scan having the Ebay down as you do this attack helps with getting them turrets up to help the thors
your army out on the field helps delay as well cause the zerg is going to want them free kills since either hit air units
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I like to snipe firsts thors with roaches and destroy everything with mutas. Its a good way to stay safe against terrans early game pressure. And you can counter if the terran overcommits to his push.
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I just recently started playing hellion banshee into mech, but mutas seem to be a pretty popular response. The good news is you're going to see the mutas on his side of the map if you don't throw your banshees/hellions away early. This gives you plenty of time to get a couple of turrets up and get a couple of thors out. I've found that continuing to feint aggression with my banshees/hellions buys me enough time to minimize any muta damage.
The muta response isn't the problem though, imo. Its figuring out what the zerg's going to do after that. Some zergs stay really defensive while they tech to hive, and others will get the initial mutas followed up by a big roach bust on your 3rd. Those first couple of production cycles out of your factories are kind of tricky.
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On October 05 2012 20:56 DKR wrote:You see Mutas a lot when you mech. Most Terran will get an E-bay so they can build a lot of towers; playing mech results in a hell of a lot of excess minerals. Turrets are a great sink. Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 19:48 DuckNuked wrote:
In fact, muta are good in ZvT.
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Against bioplay, it defend well against drops, and 2-2 Ling/Bling/Muta timings makes slaughters even in Code S recently. 99% of Terran players are more scared of infestors in both Bio and Mech play. DRG getting Taeja rolled should tell you that. DRG's fall from grace has largely been down to his seeming inability to develop with the current Meta game. Leenock had the same problem.
I must be that 1%...but then mutalisks are same par :/
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Mvp's mech doesn't really leave any room for mutas to do damage at all from what I saw.
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Mutas aren't entirely unreasonable vs mech for a few reasons. First off they make being out on the map extremely difficult for terran as he has to have a few thors to fight mutas it's the only thing he has that can do it, which makes hellions and banshee movements very difficult. If you don't have mutas or corruptors then banshees can go basically anywhere and it's very costly for infestors to fight banshees.
Second sometimes you can win for free. I've lost to mutas countless times when attempting mech because it hit earlier then I expected and I'm fucked. It sucks. The Life vs MKP game is a completely valid example of this.
Third is muta/corrupter roach. Thors naturally target the muta/corrupter and they take ages to clear it so if the Terran has overmade thors and doesn't have enough siege tanks then you can break him with muta/roach timings. These can be tricky too.
And obviosuly you can make a greater spire a little easier later, maybe fit in an upgrade or two beforehand if you want.
The weakness to muta play in this context is that mutas are very costly and don't do very well at actually just fighting mech units but you can transition into something that does easily as long as you've been droning well and deflecting harassment properly.
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This is a bit problematic.
Not because you cannot have thors in time, but because going for thors first leaves you vulnerable to mass roach play.
I usually go for 1rax FE to 2reactor factories with +1 first and then transition to 2techlab factories making thors which does ok even against early mass roach. Around the time I take 3rd, if he hasn't shown mutas, I usually need to start making tanks. It's maybe less coinflippy if you open with banshees, BUT then you are even weaker if they go mutas (having 2 thors just pop-out vs having 2-4 thors with +1). The way I play you can get a big lead by countering the mutas hard, or need to play slightly more passive and stay on 3 bases for longer against roach(/infestor). If you go for a late game mass air transition, you'll obviously be happier playing against the roach player who you'll have air upgrade advantage on.
Making many turrets early on, especially making them blindly, should always be the last possible option when you try to work your build.
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Big mutas balls are clearly out of date. I'm not saying against that. Buy you see top World Terrans loosing against Litlle mutas counts builds every weeks in every tournaments around the world.
Infestor are not the go-to unit. They are juste a more easier play (i play Terran and Zerg) and a more boring one who gets freely into Hive tech.
Going muta don't makes you fall far behind in upgrades, unless you're staying on it until 20 minutes in the game. And it's more easier to attack and be reactive than with Infestor. Current metagame is late late tanks. 2-2 Ling/BlingMuta hits before the 2nd and third factory start to pop up additionnal tanks. It's more EZ to secure additionnal bases with this compo too. SO you don't fall behind on gas unless you're making more than 12/14 mutas. Saying muta play bad and stupid is against the facts. Well controlled mutas are even far more efficient imo than waiting with infestors until hive. It gest you the ability to force your opponnent composition and movements at the 11 minutes mark, it allows you too to shut down drops easily, reduce the medivac counts, killing eventually some SCVs, and gets mobile anti-air if you're going hive tech.
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On October 04 2012 23:48 lastshadow wrote:
You don't make mutalisks, because making mutalisks is relying on your opponent to mess up, rather than anything you're doing actually being proactive or beneficial. This isn't a good way to approach the game and it certainly is not an ideal or correct way to think.
There is so many loopholes that basically show you're going mutas, that the Terran will just laugh and be prepared. You don't see ebays being made, because the T sees mutas are not possible.
When you watch pro-games you have to understand that the pro-gamers eyes sees much much much more than what you see. It's not as simple as you make it seem.
I agree with this. You should be able to get enough scouting information with banshee/hellion scouting to know when to get thors up. And if you don't, and they catch you without enough defense, then that was you taking a risk.
Also if they get mutas at a bad timing (aka terran is prepared) they can just lose to a thor hellion banshee push (not always easy, but can be done basically all the time on ladder)
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For Mech Mutas can be tricky when the early got messy for both sides but if both players open passively meaning some kind of 3 CC into hellion banshee against 3 hatches you should be able to see mutas coming from a mile away and just throw down an ebay and get like 4 turrets at key points and then you cant be magic boxed. If they go for 2 base muta then it is even easier to spot and you should end up way ahead. If you have 4 thors out they can't really do much with their mutas and then you just start tank production.
Count how many roaches or banelings they made in the early game. Get an engineering bay if you suspect them go for a Spire and then try to confirm at the 10 minute (against 2 base) or 12 minute mark (against 3 base) and react accordingly.
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On October 05 2012 00:03 wTeffecT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 23:48 ReMiiX wrote:
This is in the wrong section, but I've encountered it a lot. Yeah, I kinda realised after I posted. If a mod wants to move this, no problem. But I'm not asking for help. Where I play (Diamond), it is completely fine to spam static defence because you don't need to maximise the efficency of every mineral, simply because people's macro just isn't that good (and Mech floats minerals ) I'm kinda more interested in the Theorycrafting, and I understand what you're saying LastShadow, but I'm still seeing a lot of Pro games where this sort of thing happens. Either the Mutas straight up win the game, of give the zerg a huuuge advantage. Edit: GSL Ro8 Example/results: + Show Spoiler +The MKP vs. Life example probably wasn't the best because Life was taxing MKPs multitasking with constant ling runbys etc. which would have made it harder for him to work out what was coming and respond to it.
Since it's theorycrafting, I'll add my two cents since this is something I've recently thought about. I managed to get that question through to Taeja in the GSL and was a bit surprised by the answer, that he avoided mech against Leenock because of the mutas. I also watched Vortix vs Taeja in RSL and it made me think. Now, I'm not a very good player, I just watch a lot of Starcraft and would like to hear what better players think about this.
I think that to talk about it, we first have to identify the goal as zerg when facing mech. One goal could be to end it quickly before the mech force becomes substantial, or at least do irreparable damage. I'm not that interested in this option for the purposes of this theorycrafting, although there are a lot of options to be explored. But unless you can end it quickly, I believe that everyone agrees that you need hive tech to fight a decent mech force. Stable hive tech production needs gas, gas requires expansions. The strength of your late game army is directly proportional to the number of geysers you have.
The main problem for zerg when encountering MVP mech in the early and mid-game seems to be drone losses, lack of creep and with that no map control. This is due to the banshee hellion and potentially raven combo. Runbys are devastating for drone lines, and the only thing that can control banshees killing creep is having queens out on the map, limiting runby defense, and this too becomes useless if the banshees are cloaked and/or the hellion/banshee numbers grow enough to take out queens.
In my opinion, mutas as a damage dealer is unrealistic against mech, due to turret rings and/or thors. Sure, there is a small window of vulnerability before a terran defense is adequate but like many have pointed out, it's not something you should rely on. But just like terrans don't have to suicide in hellions, I don't think that zergs have to shove with mutas.
Active mutas on the map control space, keeps banshees and hellions from killing creep, and the creep identifies incoming runbys in time to prepare. The creep and map control allows you to take more bases safely. Mutas cost a lot of gas, and that gas could be used for infestor tech and a quicker transition to hive. On the other hand, active mutas should allow you to take a lot more geysers. So it's a gas investment now for more gas income later.
Can something counter the usefulness of the mutas? The only danger to mutas I see with mech is thors and static defenses. Thors and missile turrets are not that quick ^^ I'd say that unless you suicide them in hoping for some lucky damage, you won't lose the mutas until you're ready to trade them.
My question for better players is, is this realistic? If you choose to go mutas, what is a good number? Does it delay hive too much, do the added geysers from more expansion kick in too late? In the late game, how can you effectively get rid of the mutas while keeping them cost efficient?
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I dont see making about ten mutalisks to be such a huge investment. If he doesnt have thors up, you basically kill him and can continue more production from there. If hes got a couple you can literally sack the mutas while targetting the repairing scvs, and you can take out quite a bunch. The gas sink in the mutas doesnt seem all that bad since, generally, mech aint pushing for quite a while and roach/spine will counter helion harass. Not gas heavy-- so your free to drone and drone in that time. If you think that isnt cost effective they are at the very least helpful in pushing away helions.
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You can usually see it coming. Your initial hellion/banshee harass will give you info. If you don't see roaches, be suspicious. If you don't see a third on top of that, its probably quick mutas.
Just throw down an ebay no matter what, then if you scout it you can start spamming turrets.
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I've got a question for zerg players. Against mech, if you don't go mutalisks, how do you control the early to mid game where banshees and helions just are so effective in containing you on 3 bases? They grab their third easily and then freely mass mech while you can't start a fourth unless you pull queens and invest in preemptive spores to discourage banshee attacks. Fungal is overrated, it's way too costly impossible to just continually fungal every banshee and helion to death especially when they just split them all over the place. Do you just attack head on with roach infestor to deny the third and let banshees pick units off slowly?
If you play defensive and build your eco up, how do you deal with that medium sized tank/thor timing attack that hits before you can get your broodfestor army up? They just attack and sit there tank banging you while you can't really effectively engage with just roach infestor. Your fourth is already lost if you don't engage (and if you do and lose your army, well gg). They max out and reinforce with vikings.
I've tried several times going mutaless and lategame is just horrible for me if I don't stop that tank thor attack with my roach infestor. My fourth timing is just too late to get that gas for broodfestor deathball. Getting that 6-8 mutas and possibly more depending on if he gets e-bay or not helps secure the fourth as well as forces more thors than tanks and makes the terran play more defensive, ultimately making any potential timing attack nonexistent or that much easier to defend, allowing me to get my late game deathball.
What are your guys' tricks to going mutaless?
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On October 05 2012 21:41 Insoleet wrote:
I like to snipe firsts thors with roaches and destroy everything with mutas. Its a good way to stay safe against terrans early game pressure. And you can counter if the terran overcommits to his push.
Out of curiosity, how does those roaches get across the map when there are hellions and banshees right at your doorstep?
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On October 06 2012 15:25 scph wrote:
I've got a question for zerg players. Against mech, if you don't go mutalisks, how do you control the early to mid game where banshees and helions just are so effective in containing you on 3 bases? They grab their third easily and then freely mass mech while you can't start a fourth unless you pull queens and invest in preemptive spores to discourage banshee attacks. Fungal is overrated, it's way too costly impossible to just continually fungal every banshee and helion to death especially when they just split them all over the place. Do you just attack head on with roach infestor to deny the third and let banshees pick units off slowly?
If you play defensive and build your eco up, how do you deal with that medium sized tank/thor timing attack that hits before you can get your broodfestor army up? They just attack and sit there tank banging you while you can't really effectively engage with just roach infestor. Your fourth is already lost if you don't engage (and if you do and lose your army, well gg). They max out and reinforce with vikings.
I've tried several times going mutaless and lategame is just horrible for me if I don't stop that tank thor attack with my roach infestor. My fourth timing is just too late to get that gas for broodfestor deathball. Getting that 6-8 mutas and possibly more depending on if he gets e-bay or not helps secure the fourth as well as forces more thors than tanks and makes the terran play more defensive, ultimately making any potential timing attack nonexistent or that much easier to defend, allowing me to get my late game deathball.
What are your guys' tricks to going mutaless? When I dont go muta I go for a 3 base infestor/broordlord timing and double expand as my deathball exerts pressure. I've always managed to get my broordlords out in time as I rush it rather quickly [basically only getting burrow+roach speed before hive]. If hes going for some really concentrated two base timing I just stall with spines; when the broordlords pop hes finished anyway. Just my experience.
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On October 06 2012 16:12 whatevername wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 15:25 scph wrote:
I've got a question for zerg players. Against mech, if you don't go mutalisks, how do you control the early to mid game where banshees and helions just are so effective in containing you on 3 bases? They grab their third easily and then freely mass mech while you can't start a fourth unless you pull queens and invest in preemptive spores to discourage banshee attacks. Fungal is overrated, it's way too costly impossible to just continually fungal every banshee and helion to death especially when they just split them all over the place. Do you just attack head on with roach infestor to deny the third and let banshees pick units off slowly?
If you play defensive and build your eco up, how do you deal with that medium sized tank/thor timing attack that hits before you can get your broodfestor army up? They just attack and sit there tank banging you while you can't really effectively engage with just roach infestor. Your fourth is already lost if you don't engage (and if you do and lose your army, well gg). They max out and reinforce with vikings.
I've tried several times going mutaless and lategame is just horrible for me if I don't stop that tank thor attack with my roach infestor. My fourth timing is just too late to get that gas for broodfestor deathball. Getting that 6-8 mutas and possibly more depending on if he gets e-bay or not helps secure the fourth as well as forces more thors than tanks and makes the terran play more defensive, ultimately making any potential timing attack nonexistent or that much easier to defend, allowing me to get my late game deathball.
What are your guys' tricks to going mutaless? When I dont go muta I go for a 3 base infestor/broordlord timing and double expand as my deathball exerts pressure. I've always managed to get my broordlords out in time as I rush it rather quickly [basically only getting burrow+roach speed before hive]. If hes going for some really concentrated two base timing I just stall with spines; when the broordlords pop hes finished anyway. Just my experience.
How do you get enough gas to fund that kind of army so fast? Do you skip infestor production and just rush broodlords off 6 gas relying on queens overseers spines/spores and roaches? Man, that seems so difficult to pull off, I guess I need better unit control. Usually the terran players I face just keep building banshees non stop and add more starports if I don't get any mutas or enough infestors. They'll skip ground army completely.
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On October 06 2012 15:25 scph wrote:
I've got a question for zerg players. Against mech, if you don't go mutalisks, how do you control the early to mid game where banshees and helions just are so effective in containing you on 3 bases? They grab their third easily and then freely mass mech while you can't start a fourth unless you pull queens and invest in preemptive spores to discourage banshee attacks. Fungal is overrated, it's way too costly impossible to just continually fungal every banshee and helion to death especially when they just split them all over the place. Do you just attack head on with roach infestor to deny the third and let banshees pick units off slowly?
If you play defensive and build your eco up, how do you deal with that medium sized tank/thor timing attack that hits before you can get your broodfestor army up? They just attack and sit there tank banging you while you can't really effectively engage with just roach infestor. Your fourth is already lost if you don't engage (and if you do and lose your army, well gg). They max out and reinforce with vikings.
I've tried several times going mutaless and lategame is just horrible for me if I don't stop that tank thor attack with my roach infestor. My fourth timing is just too late to get that gas for broodfestor deathball. Getting that 6-8 mutas and possibly more depending on if he gets e-bay or not helps secure the fourth as well as forces more thors than tanks and makes the terran play more defensive, ultimately making any potential timing attack nonexistent or that much easier to defend, allowing me to get my late game deathball.
What are your guys' tricks to going mutaless?
If I don't go muta I have to scout vigilantly and constantly spreed creep. I never really had an issue with banshees. Have good spore placement and queens fungals and IT usually works just fine while I set up roaches defensively to deny any hellion harass. I feel like the trick is to keep trying to take towers and try to set up a really good engagement by catching his army unsieged if possible. The second he moves out I try ling runbys at third. I use 4-5 corruptors to take out banshees and tank thor fire and neural thors and take out tanks fast. If he is seiged up then I try to split roaches up so I can flank from multiple directions and drop IT from burrowd festors to tank siege fire. The only other strat I know is doing a huge roach drop on all the tanks, but I haven't always had much success with it so I like to try and force really favorable engagements.
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Another great thing with spire tech is the ability to makes some corruptors early. Corruption is a great addition to your DPS units. even makes mass ling winning against mass clumped Thors, whitout corruption they looses badly, but with it, it's a real fest.
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On October 06 2012 17:53 lodeet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 15:25 scph wrote:
I've got a question for zerg players. Against mech, if you don't go mutalisks, how do you control the early to mid game where banshees and helions just are so effective in containing you on 3 bases? They grab their third easily and then freely mass mech while you can't start a fourth unless you pull queens and invest in preemptive spores to discourage banshee attacks. Fungal is overrated, it's way too costly impossible to just continually fungal every banshee and helion to death especially when they just split them all over the place. Do you just attack head on with roach infestor to deny the third and let banshees pick units off slowly?
If you play defensive and build your eco up, how do you deal with that medium sized tank/thor timing attack that hits before you can get your broodfestor army up? They just attack and sit there tank banging you while you can't really effectively engage with just roach infestor. Your fourth is already lost if you don't engage (and if you do and lose your army, well gg). They max out and reinforce with vikings.
I've tried several times going mutaless and lategame is just horrible for me if I don't stop that tank thor attack with my roach infestor. My fourth timing is just too late to get that gas for broodfestor deathball. Getting that 6-8 mutas and possibly more depending on if he gets e-bay or not helps secure the fourth as well as forces more thors than tanks and makes the terran play more defensive, ultimately making any potential timing attack nonexistent or that much easier to defend, allowing me to get my late game deathball.
What are your guys' tricks to going mutaless? If I don't go muta I have to scout vigilantly and constantly spreed creep. I never really had an issue with banshees. Have good spore placement and queens fungals and IT usually works just fine while I set up roaches defensively to deny any hellion harass. I feel like the trick is to keep trying to take towers and try to set up a really good engagement by catching his army unsieged if possible. The second he moves out I try ling runbys at third. I use 4-5 corruptors to take out banshees and tank thor fire and neural thors and take out tanks fast. If he is seiged up then I try to split roaches up so I can flank from multiple directions and drop IT from burrowd festors to tank siege fire. The only other strat I know is doing a huge roach drop on all the tanks, but I haven't always had much success with it so I like to try and force really favorable engagements.
Yeah I guess my problem isn't so much the banshees completely destroying me, but that its containment along with hellions restrict my map control. I'm not able to match the terran with an extra base to get that vital gas, partly due to banshee threat and not having creep to zone out hellions and banshees. Hellions keep destroying my creep so I can't connect to the fourth. Just seems like I don't have enough infestors to keep fungalling so my fourth is usually delayed.
If I can catch their timing attack with thor/tank/banshee army in a good position then my late game usually comes out alright, but it's that critical attack that feels like a coinflip to me. If he wins that battle then I've already lost because my fourth is guaranteed dead. If I win, it's often rare for me to be able to have enough units to overpower him and win right then and there, so I just wait for a lategame battle in which I still can lose since by then he's already grabbed his fourth base as well and anything goes from then on.
With mutas, I don't need to rely on creep and spores so I can grab my fourth relatively quick and discourage any pushing as well by harassing his base. Then again, mutas are just...so useless after that window where thor count is low that it's just so cost ineffective to produce them. I want to find a way to play without building them, but I guess I'm not good enough yet.
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On October 04 2012 23:48 lastshadow wrote:
You don't make mutalisks, because making mutalisks is relying on your opponent to mess up, rather than anything you're doing actually being proactive or beneficial. This isn't a good way to approach the game and it certainly is not an ideal or correct way to think.
Sorry but what utter rubbish, mutalisks are a viable strategy. They give you map control and extra bases if played correctly, the opponent making a mistake is just a bonus if it happens. Keeping mutas alive the whole game (and don't build more then the initial 8-12)and you most likely get your money worth picking off medivacs, stray tanks, stray buildings etc My experience anyway.
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I see mutas alot when I play mech, but I learned the solution from watching Lucifron. Even with the banshees you can still miss it if they position it well with their spores, but you have the minerals to start ebay and 7 or 8 turrets (usually 7) around your main nat and third. Its no big deal to build the turrets since you arent producing from barracks and you already have your third. Thors should be popping shortly after any muta harass starts, but if you have no turrets and are relying on just thors then that window turns into jackpot bonanza free damage super fun time, and with thors being slower than mutas its not hard to get pulled apart.
I just started building them regardless of what I saw, since I had the minerals stacked anyways, and even if he wasnt planning on mutas he will find out you didnt build them when his overlord scouts and can make a quick enough shift to punish you.
I think the mutas are viable even if you get the turrets (only the first 8-12 as was said above) because they hard counter hellions and banshees and allow you to take control of the map.
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On October 04 2012 23:37 wTeffecT wrote:Edit: GSL Ro8 Example/results: + Show Spoiler +This was also one of the reasons (not the only reason) MKP lost in Game 4 to Life in the GSL RO8, the Mutalisk transition caught him with only 1 Thor out, and with magic boxing, the mutas were able to kill a huge amount of SCVs.
A counter example would be Symbol vs MVP on abyssal city, where the turrets finished in time, and the mutalisks accomplished nothing, and couldn't even take out the banshees without dying. I kind of like nerchio's corruptor approach better, for getting rid of the banshees.
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As a masters zerg who plays mutas pretty much every zvt, I feel that mutas are much more effective when terran goes hellion banshee into bio rather than into mech. Most terrans I play still build an engi bay and thors are usually popping in sufficient numbers to hold it off, maybe with damage taken but nothing crazy. If you are desperate you can pull workers to repair your thor accepting that you will lose a few. However against the bio transition I have had mutas straight up win or effectively win many times. simply because you will frequently just not have the marine count.
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On October 07 2012 15:58 Insomni7 wrote:
As a masters zerg who plays mutas pretty much every zvt, I feel that mutas are much more effective when terran goes hellion banshee into bio rather than into mech. Most terrans I play still build an engi bay and thors are usually popping in sufficient numbers to hold it off, maybe with damage taken but nothing crazy. If you are desperate you can pull workers to repair your thor accepting that you will lose a few. However against the bio transition I have had mutas straight up win or effectively win many times. simply because you will frequently just not have the marine count.
yeah at first I tried to hold the muta timing by producing marines from the barracks to help cover until thors popped but it never worked because I didnt have enough and they had no stim with gas being tight. Even with thors and turrets a ball os 10 mutas should be able to do something though, the first 7 turrets secure the mineral lines and depending on where his factories are and how the turrets are spread there will be openings somewhere.
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I am mid masters terran who frequently hears zergs complaining about the mech deathball which I always go with. I have tried to incorporate Banshee helion builds, but I like the proxy port, and that is too easily scouted by a drifting lord. Sometimes I see a hydralisk response if I stick with it. One time I saw something different.
Corruptor/roach pretty much owns it because it is a direct hard counter to everything I have. That is why I have stopped incorporating Banshee rushes/harass. Just puts me behind everywhere else. Do terrans see this response at all?
Also, why do zergs never use the building contaminate with the Overseers? That thing is an absolute killer. Seems HotS seems to be getting rid of that. I never build any turrents in TvZ and Overseers have free roam, yet they are always dropping an obvious fake marine, or whatever those things are called... even though they have all the scouting info they need.
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Just know the timing of the mutas and build thor prematurely. Normal at 11-12 mins mark after the hellions and banshee I don't think they can get to the critical mass mutas yet. Then counter attack as soon as your army looks good enough/
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On October 05 2012 22:57 iaguz wrote:
Mutas aren't entirely unreasonable vs mech for a few reasons. First off they make being out on the map extremely difficult for terran as he has to have a few thors to fight mutas it's the only thing he has that can do it, which makes hellions and banshee movements very difficult. If you don't have mutas or corruptors then banshees can go basically anywhere and it's very costly for infestors to fight banshees.
Second sometimes you can win for free. I've lost to mutas countless times when attempting mech because it hit earlier then I expected and I'm fucked. It sucks. The Life vs MKP game is a completely valid example of this.
Third is muta/corrupter roach. Thors naturally target the muta/corrupter and they take ages to clear it so if the Terran has overmade thors and doesn't have enough siege tanks then you can break him with muta/roach timings. These can be tricky too.
And obviosuly you can make a greater spire a little easier later, maybe fit in an upgrade or two beforehand if you want.
The weakness to muta play in this context is that mutas are very costly and don't do very well at actually just fighting mech units but you can transition into something that does easily as long as you've been droning well and deflecting harassment properly.
I agree that later in the game mutas are a bad idea, but with a meching terran you usually can get away with a 2 base defence with evo's queens and crawlers. This opens up the 11-12 minute muta timing push that is very devastating to terran mech because they are so reliant on expanding to their third base. If you use the early mutalisk to herass the terran and keep him on his toes before he takes his third you are free to macro into your third and fourth bases relatively faster than him while keeping his worker and siege tank count down. In addition if he over reacts it forces him to lose ~ 500 minerals ~160 true cost engi bay and ~ 120 a missle turret (estimating) to defend himself. He will be forced to make a thor first which opens up for a transition into infestor ling which can further contribute to your control of the map and limit his third base if you do it quickly enough. This is empirically based but I have not done any real math or calculations as to the true effectiveness of it, only low diamond.
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IMO as a terran, infestors are so powerful that Mutas are not really worth it, but i must admit when i mech, i'm most afraid of good muta play.
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If you don't have the Thor ready and have basically just hellions and banshees, the proper response to a high muta count hitting your base is to run into his and try to kill as much as possible, while your SCVs run around till Thor is ready to pop. The hellions will die if they stay in your base, so might as well send them to try and even the damage to his drones. Banshees same way, take out his queens and if you can the spire. If you can survive the initial push, your Thors once upgraded shred mutas. It's not a bad idea to make an Eng bay during the time you put up the third CC (seven min or so). When you push out, you'll want the turret ring anyway because Thors are too slow to run back and defend if he swoops in once you hit mid field.
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You need to hit early with Mutas or going Mutas against Mech isn't good. Mutas die toooooo fast to upgraded thors. Most good terrans will know to have an engineering bay up so roaches are a safer bet.
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I'm a muta guy. They're great vs. bio for killing medivacs, and I like them vs mech because it keeps hellions in check and i'm able to clean a good number of them up while keeping his thors home. Against mech I don't get too aggressive with the mutas but when I can, I do because I know how annoying it is to find the right defensive positioning for everything against muta and it's far more wasted time and APM for you than it is for me. Banshees are also dead if they move out after mutas pop. IDK I just feel they take care of pretty much everything for me as Zerg against a Terran. I can get my expansions, I have a lot of lings which are extremely effective when there's a reduced hellion count, I'm getting 2/2 which benefits the lings, and it's a very easy transition into BL and a lot of expansions. Muta against every Terran.
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On October 08 2012 00:02 Blamajama wrote:
I am mid masters terran who frequently hears zergs complaining about the mech deathball which I always go with. I have tried to incorporate Banshee helion builds, but I like the proxy port, and that is too easily scouted by a drifting lord. Sometimes I see a hydralisk response if I stick with it. One time I saw something different.
Corruptor/roach pretty much owns it because it is a direct hard counter to everything I have. That is why I have stopped incorporating Banshee rushes/harass. Just puts me behind everywhere else. Do terrans see this response at all?
Also, why do zergs never use the building contaminate with the Overseers? That thing is an absolute killer. Seems HotS seems to be getting rid of that. I never build any turrents in TvZ and Overseers have free roam, yet they are always dropping an obvious fake marine, or whatever those things are called... even though they have all the scouting info they need.
You do realize that if you're going mech and you don't incorporate harass, zerg will just bank up on gas, take control of the whole map, and get their deathball that much faster, right? The point of banshees and helions is to contain the zerg on three bases so they don't just expand and power drone for 10 minutes and then have the income and tech for broodlords at 14 minutes. They'll be forced to use minerals and gas on something early on in order to get that fourth and fifth because they know they can't possibly win vs mech with only 3 bases.
I can see going banshees slowing you down slightly, but doing nothing and just going for the 200/200 puts you behind even more. Zerg, if left alone, will always have the stronger late game.
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On October 08 2012 06:36 scph wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 00:02 Blamajama wrote:
I am mid masters terran who frequently hears zergs complaining about the mech deathball which I always go with. I have tried to incorporate Banshee helion builds, but I like the proxy port, and that is too easily scouted by a drifting lord. Sometimes I see a hydralisk response if I stick with it. One time I saw something different.
Corruptor/roach pretty much owns it because it is a direct hard counter to everything I have. That is why I have stopped incorporating Banshee rushes/harass. Just puts me behind everywhere else. Do terrans see this response at all?
Also, why do zergs never use the building contaminate with the Overseers? That thing is an absolute killer. Seems HotS seems to be getting rid of that. I never build any turrents in TvZ and Overseers have free roam, yet they are always dropping an obvious fake marine, or whatever those things are called... even though they have all the scouting info they need. You do realize that if you're going mech and you don't incorporate harass, zerg will just bank up on gas, take control of the whole map, and get their deathball that much faster, right? The point of banshees and helions is to contain the zerg on three bases so they don't just expand and power drone for 10 minutes and then have the income and tech for broodlords at 14 minutes. They'll be forced to use minerals and gas on something early on in order to get that fourth and fifth because they know they can't possibly win vs mech with only 3 bases. I can see going banshees slowing you down slightly, but doing nothing and just going for the 200/200 puts you behind even more. Zerg, if left alone, will always have the stronger late game.
I agree with you that you need the hellions and banshees to force him to make units, static d, and remake drones and stuff, but disagree that zerg has the edge lategame. The longer the game goes the more production facillities you add on, the bigger your macro cycle gets, to the point that you can almost match the zerg in terms of supply per cycle, and with more efficient units and production buildings that dont need babysitting (and can queue units) I think zergs big edge is in the midgame, when they can choose to go greedy or make a ton of units bc townhalls are their production too, while T has to add many more buildings/addons. To say nothing of zerg having probably the smallest max army supply.
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Well... I am not a good multi tasker to multi-prong in mass at multiple locations. I prefer death ball vs death ball and get my push out before the 15:00 mark. If I get to that mark with little retaliation from the zerg, more often than not I win the game outright. Banshee are still good, but if scouted the zerg will just take multiple bases anyhow because I lack the beefy ground force, and I hardly ever pull ahead.
On the other hand, the early helion harass does wonders for me against protoss because the creep doesn't slow me down and they catch up easily to my marine unit. Early scouting stalkers are toasted. Against speed lings, they require too much attention.
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On October 08 2012 07:54 rikter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 06:36 scph wrote:On October 08 2012 00:02 Blamajama wrote:
I am mid masters terran who frequently hears zergs complaining about the mech deathball which I always go with. I have tried to incorporate Banshee helion builds, but I like the proxy port, and that is too easily scouted by a drifting lord. Sometimes I see a hydralisk response if I stick with it. One time I saw something different.
Corruptor/roach pretty much owns it because it is a direct hard counter to everything I have. That is why I have stopped incorporating Banshee rushes/harass. Just puts me behind everywhere else. Do terrans see this response at all?
Also, why do zergs never use the building contaminate with the Overseers? That thing is an absolute killer. Seems HotS seems to be getting rid of that. I never build any turrents in TvZ and Overseers have free roam, yet they are always dropping an obvious fake marine, or whatever those things are called... even though they have all the scouting info they need. You do realize that if you're going mech and you don't incorporate harass, zerg will just bank up on gas, take control of the whole map, and get their deathball that much faster, right? The point of banshees and helions is to contain the zerg on three bases so they don't just expand and power drone for 10 minutes and then have the income and tech for broodlords at 14 minutes. They'll be forced to use minerals and gas on something early on in order to get that fourth and fifth because they know they can't possibly win vs mech with only 3 bases. I can see going banshees slowing you down slightly, but doing nothing and just going for the 200/200 puts you behind even more. Zerg, if left alone, will always have the stronger late game. I agree with you that you need the hellions and banshees to force him to make units, static d, and remake drones and stuff, but disagree that zerg has the edge lategame. The longer the game goes the more production facillities you add on, the bigger your macro cycle gets, to the point that you can almost match the zerg in terms of supply per cycle, and with more efficient units and production buildings that dont need babysitting (and can queue units) I think zergs big edge is in the midgame, when they can choose to go greedy or make a ton of units bc townhalls are their production too, while T has to add many more buildings/addons. To say nothing of zerg having probably the smallest max army supply.
It completely depends on the map and what you consider "late game" to be. Zerg has a huge edge from the time hive pops until you've managed to re-gain control of the game, if ever. I'd consider it being Zerg has the advantage late game, and Terran has the advantage ULTRA late game, but it's still map dependent.
As for mutas, it really depends on what your opening is. If you're not playing an ultra-greedy mech opening you can hold off muta harass pretty easily, and once you get a 2/2 mech army you can just roll over any ling/muta/infestor or similar comp. However, opening with 6-12 mutas and then going straight towards roaches is something you'll commonly see from players like Idra, and I feel that it's a pretty good way to deal with harass from banshees/hellions/drops (if you happened to be going bio/biomech), put some pressure on the Terran, and get a free win every once in a while. It also gives you a early spire for things like faster upgrades, tech switches, etc.
Overall I'd say that muta openings that open with <15 (usually 12 or less) mutas are still pretty good if executed correctly, but I don't think they're as good as opening infestors.
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On October 08 2012 08:24 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 07:54 rikter wrote:On October 08 2012 06:36 scph wrote:On October 08 2012 00:02 Blamajama wrote:
I am mid masters terran who frequently hears zergs complaining about the mech deathball which I always go with. I have tried to incorporate Banshee helion builds, but I like the proxy port, and that is too easily scouted by a drifting lord. Sometimes I see a hydralisk response if I stick with it. One time I saw something different.
Corruptor/roach pretty much owns it because it is a direct hard counter to everything I have. That is why I have stopped incorporating Banshee rushes/harass. Just puts me behind everywhere else. Do terrans see this response at all?
Also, why do zergs never use the building contaminate with the Overseers? That thing is an absolute killer. Seems HotS seems to be getting rid of that. I never build any turrents in TvZ and Overseers have free roam, yet they are always dropping an obvious fake marine, or whatever those things are called... even though they have all the scouting info they need. You do realize that if you're going mech and you don't incorporate harass, zerg will just bank up on gas, take control of the whole map, and get their deathball that much faster, right? The point of banshees and helions is to contain the zerg on three bases so they don't just expand and power drone for 10 minutes and then have the income and tech for broodlords at 14 minutes. They'll be forced to use minerals and gas on something early on in order to get that fourth and fifth because they know they can't possibly win vs mech with only 3 bases. I can see going banshees slowing you down slightly, but doing nothing and just going for the 200/200 puts you behind even more. Zerg, if left alone, will always have the stronger late game. I agree with you that you need the hellions and banshees to force him to make units, static d, and remake drones and stuff, but disagree that zerg has the edge lategame. The longer the game goes the more production facillities you add on, the bigger your macro cycle gets, to the point that you can almost match the zerg in terms of supply per cycle, and with more efficient units and production buildings that dont need babysitting (and can queue units) I think zergs big edge is in the midgame, when they can choose to go greedy or make a ton of units bc townhalls are their production too, while T has to add many more buildings/addons. To say nothing of zerg having probably the smallest max army supply. It completely depends on the map and what you consider "late game" to be. Zerg has a huge edge from the time hive pops until you've managed to re-gain control of the game, if ever. I'd consider it being Zerg has the advantage late game, and Terran has the advantage ULTRA late game, but it's still map dependent. As for mutas, it really depends on what your opening is. If you're not playing an ultra-greedy mech opening you can hold off muta harass pretty easily, and once you get a 2/2 mech army you can just roll over any ling/muta/infestor or similar comp. However, opening with 6-12 mutas and then going straight towards roaches is something you'll commonly see from players like Idra, and I feel that it's a pretty good way to deal with harass from banshees/hellions/drops (if you happened to be going bio/biomech), put some pressure on the Terran, and get a free win every once in a while. It also gives you a early spire for things like faster upgrades, tech switches, etc. Overall I'd say that muta openings that open with <15 (usually 12 or less) mutas are still pretty good if executed correctly, but I don't think they're as good as opening infestors.
I have less problems with zerg hive tech than I do the lair tech. Once the hive goes down just add a few starports and techlab barracks (if bio) and you are good to go. I love to see zerg dumping huge resources into T3 when I mech, since your basic comp does well against both BL and the Ultra switch. Tanks zone out infestors, thors obliterate the corruptors, and then a single viking for the broods, both tnk and thor do well vs ultras.
I think Terrans disadvantage vs zerg is that it takes much longer to set up an infrastructure that can match the potential of z (this potential is where the zerg midgame advantage comes from, bc you cant tell what his comp will look like based off his production like you can vs T or P, or even if he is intending to make drones or dudes to come kill you) but once the infrastructure is in place it doesnt matter that it took longer to get because now that its here youre ok. By 15 min you should be in good shape production-wise and it just gets better from there. I consider 15+ lategame btw. The map comments are true, but thats a topic for another post.
Hellion banshee gives you the best idea of what hes doing so you can tweak your comp a bit. The biggest thing for me with mutas is that they deny my abillity to poke around basically risk free, and without pokes to see what hes actually doing im more likely to get caught off gaurd. Off gaurd is bad enough, off gaurd with a slow unsieged mech army is fatal, and I really dont like to scan zerg until its time to check for hive.
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I go mech vs Zerg. Mutas seem to be effective against me if I don't build turrets because during that time that I only have 1-2 thors they can easily kill the thors with magic box.
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Some zergs will just try to hit a good number of mutas vs mech (15) to shut down the hellion/banshee presence (sometimes can go for the kill if there are not much AA).
and get roach upgrades and infestors later on. The "how many mutas" did he make is really a big question". You see gas is being budgeted here.
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Dunno if this is viable or not..
But I like to get 2barracks, then use 1 to build addons for factories, then the second one to get a reactor to produce marines.
I usually just get 1 thor out, the use the marines fro reactor, (I can get usually get about14-18)to hold off the first muta attack, then get my turrets and morw thora up
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I recognized that most terrans that do an hellion/banshee into mech opening are absurd greedy. I lost 2 games were i went infestors, because of their insane eco and checked the replays and saw, that they never really have anti air (3-6 marines @ 10-11 minutes). Then I startet doing 2 base muta against this and allways get easy wins. (but its diamond level)
At least an ebay should be placed for emergency towers and like someone here said, instant pushout. Perhaps Hellions into natural and banshees cloacked into main, while building rocket towers everywhere.
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On October 08 2012 04:57 Stormgear wrote:
If you don't have the Thor ready and have basically just hellions and banshees, the proper response to a high muta count hitting your base is to run into his and try to kill as much as possible, while your SCVs run around till Thor is ready to pop. The hellions will die if they stay in your base, so might as well send them to try and even the damage to his drones. Banshees same way, take out his queens and if you can the spire. If you can survive the initial push, your Thors once upgraded shred mutas. It's not a bad idea to make an Eng bay during the time you put up the third CC (seven min or so). When you push out, you'll want the turret ring anyway because Thors are too slow to run back and defend if he swoops in once you hit mid field.
You do realise mutas hard counter helion/banshee? While it may keep the mutas out of your base and buy you time a smart player will clean up the helions/banshee first before harassing.
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Mutas can be used against mech, but for reasons other than a surprise timing when no ebay is down and only 2 thors are out. If that does alot of damage, it's the Terran players fault. But if the Terran is planning on turtling hardcore and taking a 4th expand, mutas can be strong since the player is so spread out. If the Terran attacks you with a critical mass of Thors though your mutas begin to fail. Double upgrades are required, and good harassment; and I think a baserace is the better option to attacking the opponent if he's at critical mass Thors. But there's strength in shutting down helloins harass and droning massively while keeping the opponent in his base. So if you can survive that critical timing where the Terran has alot of Thors, and break even with a basetrade scenario, and get the transition into broods or even roaches up, I think it can work. Personally I'd only consider the strategy on select maps; maybe on condemned ridge, or if the opponent is taking a fast 4th.
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On October 08 2012 17:22 enykie wrote:
I recognized that most terrans that do an hellion/banshee into mech opening are absurd greedy. I lost 2 games were i went infestors, because of their insane eco and checked the replays and saw, that they never really have anti air (3-6 marines @ 10-11 minutes). Then I startet doing 2 base muta against this and allways get easy wins. (but its diamond level)
At least an ebay should be placed for emergency towers and like someone here said, instant pushout. Perhaps Hellions into natural and banshees cloacked into main, while building rocket towers everywhere.
When I mech I sometimes make as little as 2 marines, just to have in a bunker at my nat. Unless youre getting all ind or busted its fine. The money that you would spend on marines you spend on turrets since the muta timing can really hurt if you arent prepared, and my thors dont start popping until shortly after the mutas hit. Even if he goes infestors you still need/want some turrets anyways so no big deal. Its just not good to build a bunch of units you have no plans of upgrading.
Just dont build too many mutas or throw them away for nothing. Use them kind of like how T uses hellions.
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plat Zerg here, North America server.
First, I'd like to make one point, the original poster, wteffect, is Aussie. Lastshadow is a fellow Yank. DKR, a Brit. So first, before we argue the "current meta" let's all realize we're probably on different servers with different metas at the moment.
Well, I generally go for ling bling muta, ling bling at first with melee carapace ups, and the second I figure out the terran is going hellion banshee, I'm sprinting for a spire and a smallish flock of 6-12 mutas. Now, lastshadow claims this is a "I hope the terran screws up" kind of move, and DKR claims infestors are better...
Now, as for the comments of lastshadow, I respectfully disagree, but then it depends on how they're used. True, we Zerg hope for the best, that we'll catch you with your pants down and kill those 1-2 thors, and any scv scrabbling to put up any "oh-shit turrets". However, we can quickly figure out if there's not going to be much of an immediate return on our investment, and if we're paying attention and wise, we'll get the heck out of Dodge and instead keep you from expanding easily and catch any medevacs/hellions/banshees trying to move out.
Now, this whole time, we should be expecting that either the flock will succeed, or be denied, or recovered against and prevented from being a direct threat anymore, and so the best bet regardless is to meanwhile go for infestors into hive while taking a 4th during the muta harrass. Now, I generally get 1-2 ups during the time from when my spire first hits the ground until i get the gspire in production. This makes my broods for my brood/infestor ball that much more potent. Also, the mutas should slow down the meching terran, perhaps buying you some time to get to hive, AND, if you keep them alive, can defend your broods against vikings.
Now, the alternative, which isnt entirely bad, is straight into infestor and then to hive and gspire. This is decent too, but it's more vulnerable to harrassment while your infestors are low on energy, and personally i prefer mutas vs banshees than infestors vs banshees, but to each their own. Infestors are a good investment, if you can afford them, but they're not an immediate assistant like the muta is, thus investing in a few mutas before the infestor into hive transition is arguable safer. But now that we have them out, might as well go poking around right? But DONT accuse us of making "herp-derp mutas", or thinking, "Gee golly, I sure hope deese here mutas do somethin and it weren't a waste dere, Jim..."
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If you're just having trouble countering hellion banshees, hydras arent that bad against mech. You're going roach anyway, and 6 hydras without the range upgrade will just add damage in there. Just don't let it delay your tech to broodlords. I thought you were talking about mass mutas vs. Mech. Magic boxing mass mutas can work, sometimes.
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EPT
