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I was watching Liquid Sea's stream a moment ago (congrats to both him and Team Liquid, by the way  ), and one of the TvZs he played reminded me of a trend I've been seeing in TvZ when the Terran plays hellion banshee into mech.
As they have been out of favour for a while now when compared to the infestor, Mutalisks, when used, seem incredibly effective. This mostly comes out of the double armory play, and the fact that Terran's just aren't building Engineering Bays anymore becasue there is no need for Bio Upgrades. Because of this, the standard Mutalisk timing (potentially delayed by some harrass) hits when the Terran anti-air consists of 1 or 2 Thors at most. This obviously isn't enough to prevent the Mutas from killing everything, and the Thors are easily magic boxed anyway. As a result, I'm starting to see a lot of TvZs where the Terran just straight out loses to Mutalisk Transitions.
Edit: GSL Ro8 Example/results:
+ Show Spoiler +This was also one of the reasons (not the only reason) MKP lost in Game 4 to Life in the GSL RO8, the Mutalisk transition caught him with only 1 Thor out, and with magic boxing, the mutas were able to kill a huge amount of SCVs.
So my question is, if this becomes more common in the matchup, how is it dealt with? I know that the obvious answer is to scout the Spire and build an Ebay and turrets, but the problem is that with Thors being your only Anti Air, you would need a huge amount of turrets to prevent the Mutas from not only killing SCVs, but killing your Thors, destroying add-ons, supply depots etc.
I can see something like a viking response occuring (after one or two banshees, reactor the Starport and make vikings), but Vikings aren't really effective against Mutas. Or maybe we'll see players continue to produce marines out of their one barracks, though without upgrades, they won't be that effective either.
Just wondering what the community thinks
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This isn't rare or even uncommon.
On ladder it's incredibly common to see mutas these days in ZvT and they do usually hit when there's only 2 thors. You have to pull to repair and make sure your scouting is up to par so you have the eBay in time.
The only time I've ever died to it (I only play mech) is when they'll do those damn Zergling attacks while they're going up to a third which can just disrupt the hell out of my natural and cause me to not have enough resources.
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This is in the wrong section, but I've encountered it a lot.
When I play mech TvZ, it is common for me to miss the spire scout, and not make adequate defenses and just lose straight up to a little muta harass. It is so bad that I have even started telling Zerg friends to build an infestation pit in their base (in an obvious location), while pooping creep in some random base and hiding a spire. It is completely worth it as the scouting of an infestation pit means even fewer (if any) thors are made, and next to no turrets are built.
The only real ways to deal with it while remaining pure mech are either to just pump thors from the start (risky because it loses to roach timings pretty easily) or scout everywhere and just mass turrets as soon as you find a spire or a muta. The latter method is surprisingly effective and it not that bad for your econ, as most meching terrans bank minerals and are starved for gas.
The main reasons I wouldn't advocate for a viking build are that 1.: It loses straight up to pretty much any other type of attack that a zerg could do, and 2.: vikings are absolutely terrible vs muta.
In the end, I would recommend simply lining your mineral line and tech/production with a decent amount of turrets (wont give a number because I honestly don't know it and it would depend on map and simcity), while getting some thors whenever you see a spire. It is worth it to waste scans, banshees, hellions, or whatever else to find that damn spire; because if you don't you will probably lose the game.
Be sure not to over make thors, as the zerg can just switch into roach and win. Also keep up your upgrades.
Credentials: highish masters terran.
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You don't make mutalisks, because making mutalisks is relying on your opponent to mess up, rather than anything you're doing actually being proactive or beneficial. This isn't a good way to approach the game and it certainly is not an ideal or correct way to think.
There is so many loopholes that basically show you're going mutas, that the Terran will just laugh and be prepared. You don't see ebays being made, because the T sees mutas are not possible.
When you watch pro-games you have to understand that the pro-gamers eyes sees much much much more than what you see. It's not as simple as you make it seem.
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I would put the results for GSL in a spoiler tag.
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Honestly the muta transition's effectiveness will depend on how good the early game harass from terran was.
The standard Reactor Helion into banshee can be really effective and if the damage is enough then the mutas will come out when terran has had enough time to adequately prepare.
Tbh it seems strange to skip turrets at all. Roach drops are a big threat as are mutas and so having turrets is a deterrent to both of these
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On October 04 2012 23:48 ReMiiX wrote:
This is in the wrong section, but I've encountered it a lot.
Yeah, I kinda realised after I posted. If a mod wants to move this, no problem.
But I'm not asking for help. Where I play (Diamond), it is completely fine to spam static defence because you don't need to maximise the efficency of every mineral, simply because people's macro just isn't that good (and Mech floats minerals )
I'm kinda more interested in the Theorycrafting, and I understand what you're saying LastShadow, but I'm still seeing a lot of Pro games where this sort of thing happens. Either the Mutas straight up win the game, of give the zerg a huuuge advantage.
Edit: GSL Ro8 Example/results:
+ Show Spoiler +The MKP vs. Life example probably wasn't the best because Life was taxing MKPs multitasking with constant ling runbys etc. which would have made it harder for him to work out what was coming and respond to it.
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Even when Mutas do damage, the meching terran player will eventually fend them off with thors, and at that point all the money you've spent on mutas to do damage will be useless because you'll have a 2/2 mech army walking across the map erasing everything else in it's path
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Well, Taeja did mentioned that he wanted to go mech in TvZ but decided against it since Leenock tends to go mutas more than other Zs. And Taeja said early mutas are a problem for mech.
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Mutas are mainly a response to the current TvZ meta of hellion-banshee openers. Without mutas, itll be very hard for zerg to maintain a map presence. Lastshadow said that it relies on the opponent to mess up a lot. The thing is, hellion banshee isnt something easy to control. It requires heavy attention, and simply overmaking them is highly risky.
The thing is, from what I feel, banshees cannot counter roaches forever, and the minute you decide to stop making hellions from the factory you have to deal with a hard choice - thors or tanks. In low numbers, thors cannot deal with a roach response, especially when the terran has to make a fast third too in order to maintain mech production. Its common to see terran take a ton of damage to a two prong attack (roach muta) when they overmake hellion-banshees and ended up not having enough defense. Even pros make this mistake sometimes. hellion-banshee into mech is something that is still relatively new on the metagame, and zergs have not fully explored all responses possible to these kind of openers.
Early mutas is a massive problem for mech because there isnt any marines to counter them with. Thors can only do so much before they simply get boxed and killed, forcing them to stay further inside. Overmaking thors risk a mass roach response, something that terrans cannot handle without a critical tank count.
Now, hellion banshee into mmt tho....
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you'll see MVP get an eng bay around when his 2nd and 3rd facts begin, so he can have turrets up as the thors pop out to try and minimize the damage. The mutas are bound to do samage vs this style, but the idea is to minimize it enough that they dont do enough damage to undo your hellion/banshee harass ( or at least keep it even)
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To stop this completely you have to skip cloak so you have enough gas to make your factories earlier.
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In fact, muta are good in ZvT.
They usually are not there to do direct economic damage like in the first years of Sc2 ZvT. If they can it's good but that's not the point. Especially against mech.
Muta = Defend against hellion/Banshee, magic Box the first(s) Thors, makes the terran produce even more Thors and turrets. As you have map control, if the mecher is sending Hellions to grill drones, you can send your lings to kill SCVs and Thors. And keep Roach/Queens at home to defend.
Once mass Thors on the way, you send waves of Roach = Kill Thors and especially Hellions and SCVs, the mecher overproduce Tanks = you makes lings and mutas again. It's a great way do deal with mech, it delays hive tech for long, but if you're doing well: You can tech switch for a VERY long time between Lings/Roachs and Mutas while taking bases and not being too worry about hellions run bys with good map awareness. And it's much more fun to play than Fast Hive.
Against bioplay, it defend well against drops, and 2-2 Ling/Bling/Muta timings makes slaughters even in Code S recently.
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You see Mutas a lot when you mech. Most Terran will get an E-bay so they can build a lot of towers; playing mech results in a hell of a lot of excess minerals. Turrets are a great sink.
On October 05 2012 19:48 DuckNuked wrote:
In fact, muta are good in ZvT.
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Against bioplay, it defend well against drops, and 2-2 Ling/Bling/Muta timings makes slaughters even in Code S recently.
99% of Terran players are more scared of infestors in both Bio and Mech play. DRG getting Taeja rolled should tell you that. DRG's fall from grace has largely been down to his seeming inability to develop with the current Meta game. Leenock had the same problem.
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when I play Mech I never skip EB thors are your AA and you need to be getting them out but neglecting turrets is silly
means its hard to move out to either take another base or attack means you need to spread your thors when you want them with your army and it also means you have less detection as again you want your ravens with your army
also going in to late game PF turret range is good and so is building armor (some times its best to get this early if zerg is playing a heavy ling harras style)
also if you attack the 3rd with hellion banshee and you kill it or do lot of damage due to lack of defending force its a pretty good tell he is rushing muta's even without a scan having the Ebay down as you do this attack helps with getting them turrets up to help the thors
your army out on the field helps delay as well cause the zerg is going to want them free kills since either hit air units
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I like to snipe firsts thors with roaches and destroy everything with mutas. Its a good way to stay safe against terrans early game pressure. And you can counter if the terran overcommits to his push.
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I just recently started playing hellion banshee into mech, but mutas seem to be a pretty popular response. The good news is you're going to see the mutas on his side of the map if you don't throw your banshees/hellions away early. This gives you plenty of time to get a couple of turrets up and get a couple of thors out. I've found that continuing to feint aggression with my banshees/hellions buys me enough time to minimize any muta damage.
The muta response isn't the problem though, imo. Its figuring out what the zerg's going to do after that. Some zergs stay really defensive while they tech to hive, and others will get the initial mutas followed up by a big roach bust on your 3rd. Those first couple of production cycles out of your factories are kind of tricky.
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On October 05 2012 20:56 DKR wrote:You see Mutas a lot when you mech. Most Terran will get an E-bay so they can build a lot of towers; playing mech results in a hell of a lot of excess minerals. Turrets are a great sink. Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 19:48 DuckNuked wrote:
In fact, muta are good in ZvT.
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Against bioplay, it defend well against drops, and 2-2 Ling/Bling/Muta timings makes slaughters even in Code S recently. 99% of Terran players are more scared of infestors in both Bio and Mech play. DRG getting Taeja rolled should tell you that. DRG's fall from grace has largely been down to his seeming inability to develop with the current Meta game. Leenock had the same problem.
I must be that 1%...but then mutalisks are same par :/
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Mvp's mech doesn't really leave any room for mutas to do damage at all from what I saw.
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Mutas aren't entirely unreasonable vs mech for a few reasons. First off they make being out on the map extremely difficult for terran as he has to have a few thors to fight mutas it's the only thing he has that can do it, which makes hellions and banshee movements very difficult. If you don't have mutas or corruptors then banshees can go basically anywhere and it's very costly for infestors to fight banshees.
Second sometimes you can win for free. I've lost to mutas countless times when attempting mech because it hit earlier then I expected and I'm fucked. It sucks. The Life vs MKP game is a completely valid example of this.
Third is muta/corrupter roach. Thors naturally target the muta/corrupter and they take ages to clear it so if the Terran has overmade thors and doesn't have enough siege tanks then you can break him with muta/roach timings. These can be tricky too.
And obviosuly you can make a greater spire a little easier later, maybe fit in an upgrade or two beforehand if you want.
The weakness to muta play in this context is that mutas are very costly and don't do very well at actually just fighting mech units but you can transition into something that does easily as long as you've been droning well and deflecting harassment properly.
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EPT
