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Hey!
I have been trying to think of alternative methods of playing TvP and am wondering if this transition works?
Since there are two main marco routes a protoss will go against terran (colossus/HT or both), I wondered if adding battle cruisers in would put terran in an advantageous position for mid-late game engagements?
Since terran are forced to flex according to what protoss builds (if protoss goes templar, terran replies with ghosts and terran builds vikings to respond to colossus), the addition of BCs instead of vikings would create a problem for protoss players that do not react correctly.
Against a protoss composition of colossi/templar with battle cruisers instead of mass vikings, I feel the terran army is much stronger.
Against templar, obviously the BCs are stronger. Even if templar use feedback, it doesn't really hurt them substantually if properly upgraded, and if the templar energy is used there, all the better for your bio force (long live the tanks of terran army!).
Why do I think this? Whether your build vikings or battle cruisers, you have to get the attack and armor upgrades for air if toss builds colossus, but this way, the units aren't useless once the colossi die and provide a transition to late game.
Battle cruisers:
400 mineral
300 gas
90sec build
550 Health
Vikings:
150 mineral
75 gas
22sec build (when reactored)
125 Health
Essentially, you are building ~3.5 vikings per BC in cost, and 4 vikings per BC in build time, but the real win in my opinion is the health differential, even when compared against 4 vikings.
The reason I believe this would be a great transition is because it gives your frail MMM army a tank for damage which has a constant rate of fire. Additionally, the BCs are great because you could theoretically phase out marauders entirely unless toss went pure stalker vs. the BCs (since BCs tank damage) and incorporate ghosts instead. Yes, this is an gas heavy composition, but gas is something I find I have too much of late game in this matchup.
Anyway, this is just theory-crafting, and I am not a high level player. So what I am asking for is your thoughts in regard to this idea and why it could have potential, or why it has not been more popular in high-level play.
-Jinx
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Because you have a reactored starport to build medivacs which you use to churn out a couple of quick viking when Toss starts investing significantly towards Colossi. You can't reactively build Battlecruisers because you need to have a tech labbed starport, a fusion core and then it takes another 90 seconds to get a single BC which has way less range than Vikings and can only tickle a Colossus in comparison to 4 Vikings.
BC's are also way slower than your bio army which negates your mobility advantage.
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tvp mid game is all micro based. depending on how you play, if you do some damage in the early game and make toss waste gas, then you dont have much tech to worry about.
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BC's fail to see any use in high level play because they are just a completely slow, expensive, useless, garbage unit with questionable dps and terrible range.
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[QUOTE]On September 21 2012 04:15 Saechiis wrote:
Because you have a reactored starport to build medivacs which you use to churn out a couple of quick viking when Toss starts investing significantly towards Colossi. You can't reactively build Battlecruisers because you need to have a tech labbed starport, a fusion core and then it takes another 90 seconds to get a single BC[QUOTE]
Actually, I was talking about a non-reactionary build, in which you plan from the beginning to go BC. For instance, instead of going reactor on Starport, use factory to build TL for starport, and build a total of 2 starports and pump out 2 medivacs this way, and once you have fusion core, switch the naked starport onto barracks TL (ending up with 2 starports on tech labs). If you planned on going BC from the beginning, regardless of opponent build, the fusion core could be planned for ahead of time and reduce the latency of getting the first BC out.
Good point regarding mobility of army. Since you'd still have medivacs, drops are still a viable option though. It is likely the initially army from toss would be stalker heavy if your fusion core was spotted (or HT or air I suppose) which would lower the colossus/zealot count as well, making your bio army more effective against the protoss army I would think.
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On September 21 2012 04:32 ButtCraft wrote:
BC's fail to see any use in high level play because they are just a completely slow, expensive, useless, garbage unit with questionable dps and terrible range.
This is not constructive and is unsubstantiated. Don't bother posting useless opinions unless you wish to specify a particular situation in which these apply. DPS is not the issue, it is the ability for the BCs to tank for the bio army (which has excessive DPS). Range can be a problem, situationally, the BC is for main engagments, not for rapid base defense. Though, I do agree that their ability to retreat is a problem in many maps.
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On September 21 2012 04:31 LgNKami wrote:
tvp mid game is all micro based. depending on how you play, if you do some damage in the early game and make toss waste gas, then you dont have much tech to worry about.
I agree, this is a good point. In my case, however, I don't seem to have great success doing early damage to my opponent, and I prefer to purely out-macro, rather than out micro my opponent. So, perhaps a playstyle preference as well as a difference in skill level. 
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On September 21 2012 04:44 jinx1281255 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 04:32 ButtCraft wrote:
BC's fail to see any use in high level play because they are just a completely slow, expensive, useless, garbage unit with questionable dps and terrible range. This is not constructive and is unsubstantiated. Don't bother posting useless opinions unless you wish to specify a particular situation in which these apply. DPS is not the issue, it is the ability for the BCs to tank for the bio army (which has excessive DPS). Range can be a problem, situationally, the BC is for main engagments, not for rapid base defense. Though, I do agree that their ability to retreat is a problem in many maps.
I'm just giving you my opinion. I'm high masters terran and I think BC's are useless in TvP. What damage is it going to tank? STALKERS?
The real damage dealers in TvP are a combination of collosi, storm, and chargelots. BC's cannot tank damage from these units.
There's a reason you don't see them in high level play.
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On September 21 2012 04:44 jinx1281255 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 04:32 ButtCraft wrote:
BC's fail to see any use in high level play because they are just a completely slow, expensive, useless, garbage unit with questionable dps and terrible range. This is not constructive and is unsubstantiated. Don't bother posting useless opinions unless you wish to specify a particular situation in which these apply. DPS is not the issue, it is the ability for the BCs to tank for the bio army (which has excessive DPS). Range can be a problem, situationally, the BC is for main engagments, not for rapid base defense. Though, I do agree that their ability to retreat is a problem in many maps.
I don't understand how BCs are supposed to tank for a bio army. Stalker fire is not the primary occupational hazard for your late game bio ball.
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On September 21 2012 04:44 jinx1281255 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 04:32 ButtCraft wrote:
BC's fail to see any use in high level play because they are just a completely slow, expensive, useless, garbage unit with questionable dps and terrible range. This is not constructive and is unsubstantiated. Don't bother posting useless opinions unless you wish to specify a particular situation in which these apply. DPS is not the issue, it is the ability for the BCs to tank for the bio army (which has excessive DPS). Range can be a problem, situationally, the BC is for main engagments, not for rapid base defense. Though, I do agree that their ability to retreat is a problem in many maps.
What exactly is the BC tanking?
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The reason why this kind of build isn't used is that you straight up die to any attack while building your BCs I suppose. What if he just pushes with 2/3 colossus? You'll have what, 1 bc, with no little to no upgrades? your bio will melt and cya.
The only way of getting BCs in the game (and you need to mass them for them to be effective) is to turtle like hell (like in the TvZ guide written some time ago by a ministry of win manager), with planetaries everywhere and such (like MVP did on metropolis during GSL finals).
You can't just transition out of bio into BC's, they are way too expensive and long to get I guess. On top of that it's not like colossi that are a support unit, one bc is useless, you need to go full sky terran if you want them to be useful :/
And if another reason was needed, upgrades have nothing to do with feedback damage. Your BCs will take 200 damage if feedbacked with full energy, which is pretty terrible.
So yeah, if you want to play with BCs, go mass turtle into mass orbital/sac SCVs and max on sky terran. I think you can refer to Lynaa's guide to mech in TvP, where he explains everything you need to know to transition to late game sky terran (from mech, but the concept is the same).
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I don't understand how BCs are supposed to tank for a bio army. Stalker fire is not the primary occupational hazard for your late game bio ball.
The idea behind the BCs is that they are a solid unit when mixed with a bio-centric force that give strength to the overall army composition because of their high health and constant fire and will cause the protoss player to have to respond with more than a few stalkers (producing useless units that are countered by bio) instead of using primarily zealots and therefore lowering the available gas to produce colossi and templar which can tear apart a pure bio composition.
The concept here is that BCs may acutally give terran the ability to cause protoss to build units that are less benificial in late game. I'm not saying this is fact, or that every terran should try this - I'm merely trying to raise some discussion regarding the idea of incorporating BCs instead of vikings which fragile and weak against everything beside colossi.
-Jinx
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On September 21 2012 05:09 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 04:44 jinx1281255 wrote:On September 21 2012 04:32 ButtCraft wrote:
BC's fail to see any use in high level play because they are just a completely slow, expensive, useless, garbage unit with questionable dps and terrible range. This is not constructive and is unsubstantiated. Don't bother posting useless opinions unless you wish to specify a particular situation in which these apply. DPS is not the issue, it is the ability for the BCs to tank for the bio army (which has excessive DPS). Range can be a problem, situationally, the BC is for main engagments, not for rapid base defense. Though, I do agree that their ability to retreat is a problem in many maps. What exactly is the BC tanking?
The BCs would tank damage mainly from stalkers, high-templars, archons etc.
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On September 21 2012 05:09 Nimix wrote:
The reason why this kind of build isn't used is that you straight up die to any attack while building your BCs I suppose. What if he just pushes with 2/3 colossus? You'll have what, 1 bc, with no little to no upgrades? your bio will melt and cya.
The only way of getting BCs in the game (and you need to mass them for them to be effective) is to turtle like hell (like in the TvZ guide written some time ago by a ministry of win manager), with planetaries everywhere and such (like MVP did on metropolis during GSL finals).
You can't just transition out of bio into BC's, they are way too expensive and long to get I guess. On top of that it's not like colossi that are a support unit, one bc is useless, you need to go full sky terran if you want them to be useful :/
And if another reason was needed, upgrades have nothing to do with feedback damage. Your BCs will take 200 damage if feedbacked with full energy, which is pretty terrible.
So yeah, if you want to play with BCs, go mass turtle into mass orbital/sac SCVs and max on sky terran. I think you can refer to Lynaa's guide to mech in TvP, where he explains everything you need to know to transition to late game sky terran (from mech, but the concept is the same).
Thank you for your post! This is very good info, and was exactly what I was looking for.
Perhaps a more gradual transition would be better than what I had envisioned. I had figured a 1RaxFE into double starport (medivac/BC production) and then 3rd CC. Perhaps if I initally built vikings until after 3rd was established I'd have enough defense and economy to make it work. I'll look into Lynaa's guide and see if there is anything I use for bio.
-Jinx
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On September 21 2012 04:54 ButtCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 04:44 jinx1281255 wrote:On September 21 2012 04:32 ButtCraft wrote:
BC's fail to see any use in high level play because they are just a completely slow, expensive, useless, garbage unit with questionable dps and terrible range. This is not constructive and is unsubstantiated. Don't bother posting useless opinions unless you wish to specify a particular situation in which these apply. DPS is not the issue, it is the ability for the BCs to tank for the bio army (which has excessive DPS). Range can be a problem, situationally, the BC is for main engagments, not for rapid base defense. Though, I do agree that their ability to retreat is a problem in many maps. I'm just giving you my opinion. I'm high masters terran and I think BC's are useless in TvP. What damage is it going to tank? STALKERS? The real damage dealers in TvP are a combination of collosi, storm, and chargelots. BC's cannot tank damage from these units. There's a reason you don't see them in high level play.
And colossi and charglots can do no damage to BCs, which makes them a fantastic unit to require protoss to make less DPS-friendly units such as stalkers or to narrow colossus production to make way for mostly templar. My point being that if I build BCs, you can't just continue to build colossus/zealot and expect to be fine. That being the case, I would guess you would go templar/archon/zealot, which is why the ghosts are part of this as well.
Granted, this is just theory, and your experience tells you this idea fails at higher levels. I appreciate your input
-Jinx
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I have an issue with two of the points you made that are sticking out like sore thumbs when I think about BCs.
The first point is that you say BCs are not useless once the colossi are dead. How are you planning on killing colossi without vikings? The only way I can see colossi dying is to yamato cannon, in which case you'll need 4-6 high energy battlecruisers and the yamato upgrade before a colossi push comes. On a side note, in the late late game, you'll need to worry about feedback, as well, if you're going to use yamato against a high colossi count. Edit: On top of this, how are you planning on killing chargelots after you whole bio army is dead?
The other point you make is that BCs can tank damage. You list some units from which they tank damage, none of which are colossi, which are the #1 threat. Also, tanking damage from templar (the #2 threat) is another thing you mention, in the sense that they will use energy on feedback instead of storm - I'm not buying it. If there is a threatening bio army, that energy is going primarily to storms in the hands of any good protoss. On top of that, feedback's energy cost is low enough that if he was placed in a situation where he was forced to use it against you (5-6+ high energy BCs) he will have a high enough templar count with high enough energy to spam both feedback AND storm. The #3 threat is chargelots, from which BCs tank no damage.
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I think he's wrong in saying that bcs will tank damage because we all know protoss doesn't make a lot of stalkers in pvt but bcs will work for dps. Bc dps against ground is pretty high and is only going to get stronger in hots. I think they were gonna buff dmg to 10 from 8 to ground. Although, you will need something to deal with zealots because bcs are too slow to catch up to zealots and since you suggest replacing marauders, storms and collosi are gonna eat up your marine ghost army. My two cents.
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On September 21 2012 05:19 jinx1281255 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 05:09 Talack wrote:On September 21 2012 04:44 jinx1281255 wrote:On September 21 2012 04:32 ButtCraft wrote:
BC's fail to see any use in high level play because they are just a completely slow, expensive, useless, garbage unit with questionable dps and terrible range. This is not constructive and is unsubstantiated. Don't bother posting useless opinions unless you wish to specify a particular situation in which these apply. DPS is not the issue, it is the ability for the BCs to tank for the bio army (which has excessive DPS). Range can be a problem, situationally, the BC is for main engagments, not for rapid base defense. Though, I do agree that their ability to retreat is a problem in many maps. What exactly is the BC tanking? The BCs would tank damage mainly from stalkers, high-templars, archons etc.
Stalkers don't out dps the medivac healing, storm would still hit any bio units. archons would still hit the bio units.
: /
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Well at least BCs dont get smashed by Colo + storms + chargelots...
It might not tank the damage but it won't get attacked all that much.
I like the idea but it will be tough to make it work.
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BCs are good if you can get a lot of them, the trick is getting them out without dying in the process. If you get like 10 BCs out Protoss is pretty dead, they have nothing that can kill them. A high count of BCs absolutely massacres stalkers. Storm just doesn't do enough, it only does 80 damage and has a much smaller AoE than BW. If they try to beat your BCs with templar they'll need so many that 2 or 3 ghosts can just wreck thousands of gas with 1 EMP. It's not like templar against bio where they only need two good storms to go off to win the fight, against BCs storm needs to get spammed over and over and ghosts just shut that down.
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I like the idea. I had a similar idea a few months ago using banshees Banshees vs Vikings Comparison. I think if you do the BC transition too early, as others have said, you run the risk of being run over. Perhaps start BC's once you are maxed (16-20 min mark).
Personally, I think using a degree of Sky Terran can be very powerful against Toss. What most people don't seem to understand is that when you have a strong air presence the protoss needs to react to your build instead of the other way around. Zealots, forcefields, immortal, and colossus are relatively useless vs air..and these are the units that are strongest vs bio.
Although I mentioned waiting until you are maxed, I encourage you to try before-hand as well. A maxed bio army with 4 BC's could be quite potent. And don't listen to these guys who think that the lack of a strategy at the pro level indicates its inferiority....such an attitude prohibits innovation. If you are more interested in Sky Terran I recommend Synystyr's Guide and Yoshi's Guide. Good Luck.
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Nope, it requires a fusion core as well as being inferior when it comes to actually killing the colossi.
BCs are good in the hyper late-game against Protoss for different reasons, but vikings > BCs in the mid-game and "early" late-game, both for aggression and defense.
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I don't know how cost efficient it would be. Feedback and a quick blink would murder BCs and they are also very slow.
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BC's can only work in the extreme lategame, and to safely transition into them you must have the support of 5+ mining bases (2-3 of which are planetaries), additional orbitals 15-20+ ghosts, and mass vikings. If it reaches this point toss can have just as many carriers and a mothership.
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I think the way to use BC is definitly with ghosts. You almost need to base your entire game plan around EMP for it to work.
Think about it, every counter that protoss has for BC fares REALLY badly vs EMP.
HT (needs energy) / archon (350s/10hp) / stalker (80s/80hp)
you can wipe out most of the problems with EMP carpet bombs.
if they are zealot heavy kite with marauders and lets the BCs do their damage.
I think the main fact is that there is no place for marines in the terran late game. Colossus and storm annihilate them so fast, I think late game terrans should be replacing them with 'something' more durable.
I think it was Byun vs Rain where Byun was sacrificing marines and replacing them with ghosts to some success.
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I watched incontrols stream yesterday and he played a terran that did go BCs in the very late-game (daybreak split in half, 5 bases each etc). It looked like he (wisely) didn't want to engage the P bio slaying ball, so he threw down about 6 starports and massed BC behind PFs in the middle. The BCs did very well until they died because of the broken late game warpgate mechanic- P remaxed with blink stalkers in seconds with the absolute absurd amount of ready warpgates. As incontrol said himself, at that stage you're basically facing a 600 pop protoss army. So yeah. No.
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Hey jinx, solid theory, but I think it doesn't hold up for several reasons.
Its no so much the cost of teching to BCs that is the problem, its the timings. A healthy protoss macro will have both collossus and high templar at some time between 12-15 minutes, or about two minutes or so after they finish their third base. The fastest you could get a BC without delaying MMM upgrades and tech would be probably somewhere around 13.5-15 minutes, which means as you get your first BC protoss would probably have mixed tech at this time.
The mid game in TvP is easily the hardest part of TvP for terran, because terran tech actually developers slower then protoss tech because of how much terran must commit to MMM in the early game in order to survive, and also put some kind of halt to protoss expansions between 10-13 minutes. At ten minutes pretty much any terran build is going to have you just getting medivacs and finishing crucial bio upgrades, while a collossus or a high templar is not far off for protoss. If you have an under teched bio force and protoss hits a strong two base collossus timing or archon/zealot timing you are just screwed if you don't have vikings or ghosts in your composition.
Protoss will start to hit their first max at about 16 minutes and this is with mixed tech and 3/3. if terran doesn't have a compositions that can deal with both templar and collossus cost effectively then terran is in a lot of trouble at that point. I think even if you skipped ghost tech entirely and stopped medivacs and three and went straight into bcs, you would be lucky to get more then two or three by that time. This leaves you very open to just getting run over by a protoss death ball. You are certainly going to have a difficult time holding a third base none the less taking a 4th.
It is for this reason that I think you don't often see BCs in TVP, is not that they aren't cost efficient against gateway/robo armies, its that there is a gigantic timing window where terran has essentially nothing while they are making the transition into them. It makes much more sense for terran to get vikings and ghost, and then late game substitute less and less marines in their armies for more and more vikings, mauraders, and ghosts with planetaries to help with positioning. I think ghost/viking/maurader super maxes for terran are just as cost efficient and much safer and easier transitions for the late game. I recommend you watch Byun and his series with Rain and Genuis if you want to learn more about "standard TvP". His late game transition into mass ghosts was/is very strong, and in my opinion the future of the matchup.
That being said, I have seen players who have put a lot of effort into going BCs versus protoss. I recommend you check out this mans stream: http://www.twitch.tv/crazystupid0/b/259143679. He is a high masters player who, at least at one time, used to go BCs versus protoss every game (I think it was him anyway!). He is a good guy and I am sure he would be happy to talk to you about it if you asked him.
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You could also check out the GSL finals for... Was it last season? Or the season before that?
Mvp vs squirtle, on metropolis. A good showcase of BC in tvp, and also and insanely epic game
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On September 21 2012 04:54 ButtCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 04:44 jinx1281255 wrote:On September 21 2012 04:32 ButtCraft wrote:
BC's fail to see any use in high level play because they are just a completely slow, expensive, useless, garbage unit with questionable dps and terrible range. This is not constructive and is unsubstantiated. Don't bother posting useless opinions unless you wish to specify a particular situation in which these apply. DPS is not the issue, it is the ability for the BCs to tank for the bio army (which has excessive DPS). Range can be a problem, situationally, the BC is for main engagments, not for rapid base defense. Though, I do agree that their ability to retreat is a problem in many maps. I'm just giving you my opinion. I'm high masters terran and I think BC's are useless in TvP. What damage is it going to tank? STALKERS? The real damage dealers in TvP are a combination of collosi, storm, and chargelots. BC's cannot tank damage from these units. There's a reason you don't see them in high level play.
All hail the 'high' masters terran opinions! GSl finals means nothing.
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If the game ever becomes a turtle game where the Protoss can't commit to an attack into your Planetary and MMMGV, then you can slowly transition into BCs, though it hasn't been tested enough to say if it's better than the standard Terran army yet.
However, directly going for BCs can pretty much put you behind vs every Protoss build. The various warp gate timings, fast 3rd, Colo timings, etc. You just won't have any decent army to survive or you'll be behind Protoss in economy.
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In mvp vs squirtle game on metalopolis mvp went bcs late game he didn't go mid game. It works then sometimes.
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I like the idea or I tried something similar lately. However I'm just Silver and just beat a Gold player with it, so this might not work too far up the ranks. Still someone may want to try it my way.
What I do is a 1Rax gasless FE into 3Rax (1TL, 2naked) with Ghost Academy at first and producing only Ghosts and Marines. The reasons being: Ghosts with EMP are great against early Gateway armies (Zealot/Stalker/Sentry) denying FFs and having a nice splash, when Protoss has none (yet), and have a chance to reveal cloaked units (against DT rushes). Marines are quite good against all Gateway units, while Marauders mainly just against the Stalkers. Marauders also take away gas that you need for Ghosts and the later transition into BCs. I don't get a lot of Bio Upgrades aswell at first, because it takes so much gas (maybe Combat Shield, but that's it). For defense I rely on Bunkers to prolong the lifespan of Marines. I even go poking his front a bit with the Marine/Ghost mix, partly to scare him, partly to get rid of some Gateway units and delay his maxing out.
Then I add Factory and Starport (naked) to get a few Medivacs out to further help Bio. This will also lead the Protoss to think I'm going the usual Bio Style, just with early Ghosts.
Around the time of taking a 3rd I put up some Turrets to deny Observers and start adding Starports and a FusionCore while building TLs with the Factory. When possible, adding Armories to research air upgrades (armor first to make BCs even beefier).
I produce a few Ravens and then BCs as fast as possible. Marines are the mineral sink and Ghosts are reproduced when lost.
Somewhat later I start adding more Raxes (to get rid of Minerals and to have a fast panic Marine Production, if something goes wrong) and more CCs (to get more bases and/or to be able to sack SCVs).
The point of this: Pretending to go bio to have Protoss go Colossi/Gateway. As soon as he scouts BC tech, he's probably going Stalker heavy, because it's the fastest way for him to get anti-air. Raven PDDs will help against those a lot. Ghosts are used to get rid of possible HTs and apart from that to soften up the Stalkers with EMP.
In the 200/200 battle against the before mentioned Gold Protoss he attacked into my pre-planted PDDs, didn't have enough Stalkers to even have a remote chance to shoot down my BCs and ate quite a bunch of EMPs at the start. He clearly wiped my groundforce (Ghosts and Marines), but that was expected, leaving all his Zealots and Colossi as fodder for the BCs after all the Stalkers were gone. Additional warp-in of Stalkers ran into some new PDDs again, so the BCs had no problem. He gg'ed out.
Again, there are probably some flaws. This may not work at near-pro-level. However it has some potential still imo, because I know my mechanics are bad and I could still get away with it very nicely. Better players could certainly get much more out of the idea than I can.
The downside is the transitioning phase (Bio -> Air), but transitions are always hard to do.
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From playing in teamgames with friends, 5 HT's feedbacking and then storming BC's screws them over so much, they are far too slow to move out of storm, no real energy dump before feedbacks land, can't imagine this would work in 1v1 when high energy HT's are so popular in the matchup.
Not to mention if you blanket storm under the BC's then the bio is going to back off, allowing the protoss to freely kill very expensive BC's.
Have to agree with the people thinking that this isn't a good idea...
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On September 21 2012 18:30 virtu wrote:
From playing in teamgames with friends, 5 HT's feedbacking and then storming BC's screws them over so much, they are far too slow to move out of storm, no real energy dump before feedbacks land, can't imagine this would work in 1v1 when high energy HT's are so popular in the matchup.
Not to mention if you blanket storm under the BC's then the bio is going to back off, allowing the protoss to freely kill very expensive BC's.
Have to agree with the people thinking that this isn't a good idea...
You're right, feedback has always been a pain for any energy unit (also a reason why Thors are crap in TvP). You have to EMP/Snipe the HTs before they can feedback all your BCs. That's also a nice thing about having Ghosts that early.
However so many HTs are gas expensive and after feedback you still need anti-air units to take the BCs down completely. With PDDs set, Stalkers will still have a hard time to do so. PDDs can be feedbacked too, but are much harder to hit than the bulky BCs.
I guess Protoss will have to deal with this more like with Zerg Lategame armies... Mothership and Archon toilet. Although EMPs can deny this aswell.
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i seen this style played yesterday night on incontrol's stream.
It didn't work, but Incontrol was commenting it was pretty good, if only he did repair the BCs, because at that point, the protoss could remax instantly, and the terran couldn't. He was pointing out that so late in the game, the protoss has banked so many minerals, the terran goes against a 600/200 army in waves, due to insta remax, which the terran can't do.
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BCs don't have the synergy with bio. Bio needs to kite chargelots and BCs can't kite and die to stalkers. If you don't kite chargelots, your bio dies. If someone has a high level VOD with bio+bc in tvp i'm interested to see it.
edit: btw what do you mean with
On September 21 2012 04:06 jinx1281255 wrote:
Even if templar use feedback, it doesn't really hurt them substantually if properly upgraded
Properly upgraded like energy upgrade not researched?
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On September 21 2012 18:45 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 18:30 virtu wrote:
From playing in teamgames with friends, 5 HT's feedbacking and then storming BC's screws them over so much, they are far too slow to move out of storm, no real energy dump before feedbacks land, can't imagine this would work in 1v1 when high energy HT's are so popular in the matchup.
Not to mention if you blanket storm under the BC's then the bio is going to back off, allowing the protoss to freely kill very expensive BC's.
Have to agree with the people thinking that this isn't a good idea... You're right, feedback has always been a pain for any energy unit (also a reason why Thors are crap in TvP). You have to EMP/Snipe the HTs before they can feedback all your BCs. That's also a nice thing about having Ghosts that early. However so many HTs are gas expensive and after feedback you still need anti-air units to take the BCs down completely. With PDDs set, Stalkers will still have a hard time to do so. PDDs can be feedbacked too, but are much harder to hit than the bulky BCs. I guess Protoss will have to deal with this more like with Zerg Lategame armies... Mothership and Archon toilet. Although EMPs can deny this aswell.
Indeed, as the broodlord/infestor PvZ metagame displays, protoss have a hard time dealing with bulky tier 3 air units with decent supporting units, however unlike PvZ where not only do the infestors literally stop the protoss army from advancing in its tracks (fungal), but the broodlings from the broodlords themselves provide a barrier stopping the P army from advancing, a Terran doesn't have these tools available, infact it's quite the other way around.
It seems to be getting harder and harder for ghosts to land those "money" emp's, and whilst you're correct about it costing quite a bit of gas for a decent number of HT's, by the time a terran can get to a decent number of battlecruisers it's more than plausible that protoss can have 6-8 full energy HT's.
With colossi splash, storms under the BC's and even forcefields, there's just no way that I can see a bio army being able to stop the P killing off the BC's at the start of the fight, mass feedback, blanket storm, morph to archon, stalker focus fire.
Also the above mentioned remaxing from a lategame P is a huge issue for the terran, theoretically I just don't see this working at all, however it would be nice to see replays of terrans trying it out against equally skilled opponents to see how it goes in reality.
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Truthfully, BC + Ghost is the strongest composition in lategame TvP, 3/3 Battlecruisers pretty much don't die with Ghost and SCV support to anything apart from a Vortex. The problem with said strategy is getting there. There are probably 1-2 maps in the ladder map pool which would let you accomodate this strategy, as you're going to need to be on 5-6 mining bases to get the upgrades, units and planetaries out to ensure your survival during the transition. The main problem is also that you have to keep all your units together, as the composition acts as a deathball. As previously mentioned, the vortex is the single (and only) counter to this build, I've found.
As long as you can split the map in half and ensure your survival towards the later stages of the game, BC + Ghost is so strong. Yes, it is more immobile and you can't be dropping in multiple locations, but you have to be patient, make sure you have lots of sensor towers and missile turrets up so observers, high templar and motherships can't surprise you with vortex's, storms and the like. High Masters Terran if that clarifies the 'relevance' of any of this information.
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On September 21 2012 19:32 Pneumothorax wrote:
Truthfully, BC + Ghost is the strongest composition in lategame TvP, 3/3 Battlecruisers pretty much don't die with Ghost and SCV support to anything apart from a Vortex. The problem with said strategy is getting there. There are probably 1-2 maps in the ladder map pool which would let you accomodate this strategy, as you're going to need to be on 5-6 mining bases to get the upgrades, units and planetaries out to ensure your survival during the transition. The main problem is also that you have to keep all your units together, as the composition acts as a deathball. As previously mentioned, the vortex is the single (and only) counter to this build, I've found.
As long as you can split the map in half and ensure your survival towards the later stages of the game, BC + Ghost is so strong. Yes, it is more immobile and you can't be dropping in multiple locations, but you have to be patient, make sure you have lots of sensor towers and missile turrets up so observers, high templar and motherships can't surprise you with vortex's, storms and the like. High Masters Terran if that clarifies the 'relevance' of any of this information.
Can you provide a replay please? To me it sounds like a theorycraft revolving around a one single game everyone knows.
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I've tried making BC to transition to a tougher composition from my marine/Thor/viking, but it's terrible. It's better to make banshees, they add good dps, don't take extra damage from any of the units protoss is going to make and you can easily remove the energy so you don't get feedbacked to death, also they are great in marginal situations and adding that cloak/harass threat. You don't need that many starports(,3-4 is fine).To be successful with BCs you'd have to have 6 starports and churn them out at once with 3-3 upgrades ready and protoss can't attack you while they are making. Even then if he has plenty of stalkers, archons and HT's you are more or less shooting yourself in the leg. Banshees are harder to focus fire too.
Yes, BC/Ghost is good in a way, but it already takes a stalemate, like the mass wraith switch in BW TvT. I don't know how you split the map in SC2 against protoss. Would have to be a map with a single choke and 6 bases on both sides.
Really marginal IMHo.
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Banshees are a lot more fragile than BCs. I've tried heavy Banshee styles, but Protoss can 1) mass Stalkers way easier than you can Banshees 2) Storm the whatever out of them with HTs (feedback is waste of APM here) and 3) easily counter them by adding some phoenixes (that don't work that good against BCs  ).
Yes, Banshees have a nice dps, but you have a load of glasscannons with your bio army already. You lack the tanky units that do much damage, because they live long, instead of fast damage followed by fast death.
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On September 21 2012 19:03 Jarree wrote:BCs don't have the synergy with bio. Bio needs to kite chargelots and BCs can't kite and die to stalkers. If you don't kite chargelots, your bio dies. If someone has a high level VOD with bio+bc in tvp i'm interested to see it. edit: btw what do you mean with Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 04:06 jinx1281255 wrote:
Even if templar use feedback, it doesn't really hurt them substantually if properly upgraded Properly upgraded like energy upgrade not researched?
Guys... The missing link is RAVEN.
8 Ravens for every 6 BCs can make very short work of even mass stalkers.
Systematic deployment of PDD will make it almost suicidal for stalker/colossi ball to challenge.
The trick is to deal with the eventual HT response which requires good control of the ravens and ghosts.
I have theory crafted quite some time, for sky Terran an escort group for the BCs is medivac/ghost/raven/Viking.
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On September 21 2012 21:49 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Guys... The missing link is RAVEN.
8 Ravens for every 6 BCs can make very short work of even mass stalkers.
Systematic deployment of PDD will make it almost suicidal for stalker/colossi ball to challenge.
The trick is to deal with the eventual HT response which requires good control of the ravens and ghosts.
I have theory crafted quite some time, for sky Terran an escort group for the BCs is medivac/ghost/raven/Viking.
I guess you mean 1 Raven per 6 BCs, right?
My earlier strategy description included Ravens, so yes, i'm all with you there. I'm just not quite sure what you need the Medivacs and Vikings for. 1 Medivac to heal lightly wounded Ghosts ok, but more is imo wasted supply, because Protoss will probably wipe anything you have on the ground, being healed or not. Also cloak is probably the better friend of Ghosts here. Observers are uncloaked by Ravens anyways and will hopefully die quite fast then so there's no detection for him anymore. Vikings will shoot at Colossi, yes, but those are no threat for your BCs anyways, so no point. Just when Protoss switches to heavy air, Vikings are nice.
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Energy based unit - feedback feedback feedback feedback, I dont give a shit how many ravens/PDD you plan on dumping to support your BCs, feedback massacres all of these
Meaning you also need a bunch of ghosts to do the dirty work, meaning you'll be on at least 5 base just to support the gas.
Meaning BCs are a transition OUT of bio, which is when 3/3 bio, 3/0 air with ~8-10 ghosts and a bunch of vikings still isnt working against the protoss....
Which just really doesnt happen on the current maps unless there are terrans still on taldarim or something huge like that.
Yes we all watched that sick Mvp vs Iforgothisname (Squirtle i think) GSL Code S finals where it was a mass BC raven ghost viking vs mass carrier/mothership/archons/HT
In which Mvp swore he wouldve won the match if he dodged the sick vortex (basically a ZvP situation with mass blords)
But that was on the largest GSL map, with both players hitting up about 7+ bases.
On September 21 2012 21:42 BurningRanger wrote:Banshees are a lot more fragile than BCs. I've tried heavy Banshee styles, but Protoss can 1) mass Stalkers way easier than you can Banshees 2) Storm the whatever out of them with HTs (feedback is waste of APM here) and 3) easily counter them by adding some phoenixes (that don't work that good against BCs ). Yes, Banshees have a nice dps, but you have a load of glasscannons with your bio army already. You lack the tanky units that do much damage, because they live long, instead of fast damage followed by fast death.
How about a THOR - high HP +armor, decent damage, stomps FFs and can easily be repaired, baits feedback, soak up storms and collosi damage - also snipes collosi/stalker decently well.
Also moves at a decent rate.
So to return to the question Jinx is asking - only in super late game, and also requires a really really large map to achieve on. To get BCs out without dying to a straight push from protoss requires heavy defenses, since BCs take up a TON of resources, supply, support and time to get out, in which your basic mmmvg army will be at a supply disadvantage in a straight up fight against protoss.
This means PFs holding key locations, and probably double PFs at far expansions, in which you slowly buildup your air army and suicide scvs, then marines, then marauders.
Also, if the protoss is any decent and transitions into carriers/void/Mship+shit ton of archons to counter you, realize that this fight requires a much more hardcore babysitting than anything terran ever had to do other than being unsieged on creep in the middle on a zerg base who happens to have 30 thousand banelings and infestors.
And carrier DPS is fucking insane. The only reason terran can actually hold a candle against carriers is because of emp+yamato. Please do NOT let your BCs/ghosts get FBed/destroyed if you plan on making this work at all.
No, vikings do not work against mass carrier. For them to actually work you need almost 1.5x the amount required to one shot a carrier. Carrier range is the same or greater than vikings and they can easily snipe down a couple vikings before you kill one carrier, and having a cloud of vikings is really just asking to be stormed/vortex'd/archon rofl.
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Translation: EPIC SPACE BATTLE
I miss those SC:BW days, where they did happen every blue moon.
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On September 21 2012 04:44 jinx1281255 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 04:32 ButtCraft wrote:
BC's fail to see any use in high level play because they are just a completely slow, expensive, useless, garbage unit with questionable dps and terrible range. This is not constructive and is unsubstantiated. Don't bother posting useless opinions unless you wish to specify a particular situation in which these apply. DPS is not the issue, it is the ability for the BCs to tank for the bio army (which has excessive DPS). Range can be a problem, situationally, the BC is for main engagments, not for rapid base defense. Though, I do agree that their ability to retreat is a problem in many maps.
It's not really cool to lash out at theis guy for stating the truth, BC's are not very good except in a very specific situaltion, they are slow, expensive with questionable DPS and bad range, those arent unsubstantiated statements and most people who know the game well would agree, its a nice idea but when you post a really wierd and unused strategy expect some people to put it down. It's pretty much accepted at this point that using BC's as a part of your unit composition just wont work unless you have a huge economy. I just really dont like how you assult him and call his opinion useless when he makes a pretty valid point albiet in a rather tactless manner, but he wasnt really insulting you and he certainly didn't tell YOU not to post useless opinions about silly strats that wont work, which one could argue that he could have. You arent a mod so i dont think it is your right to tell people not to post their opinions or that they are useless and im sure you wouldn't like it if someone did it to you. Have a nice day.
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BC Ghost is a great combination if you can afford it. As shown by MVP against Squirtle (even though he lost). It's something to gradually get towards if you're ahead a battle/base in the late game.
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On a map where you could turtle with Planetary Fortresses and Bunkers a theoretical Ghost/BC army should be a fantastic "death ball". Problem is, with the removal of Metropolis from the pro pool, there really isn't a map where it's feasible.
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If your going battlecruiser from the begining, you need to play super defensive. Start with vikings and banshees, marines, and start getting the BC's once you hit 3 bases. Prepare to be stuck in your base in the majority of the game until you finally get around 7 BC's+
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No, you'll need Ravens for enough PDDs to transition safely from marauder/marine against mass stalkers w/o medivacs.
That means 4 initial ravens and 8 safest as with 8 ravens, toss will start getting reluctant with massing stalkers.
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EPT
