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United States132 Posts
The purpose of this thread is to discuss whether vikings are superior to banshees in a typical TvP game.
Game parameters: We assume fast bio expand from terran (to eliminate 'unfair' advantage if opened banshees for example) and the toss opened some sort of fast expo into colossus. I believe these parameters are worth discussing as: 1) this is typical of ~75% of TvP's (or they transition here after early pressure), 2) this isolates the viking / banshee variable.
Unit Stats:
Viking:
Cost: 150 min, 75 gas, 42 sec (214min, 107gas) per minute; 2 food; 125hp
DPS: vs Colossus: 14 (-1.0 per armor upgrade), vs ground: 12 (-1.0)
Banshee:
Cost: 150 min, 100 gas, 60 sec (150min, 100gas) per minute; 3 food; 140hp
DPS: vs all: 19.2 (-1.6 per armor upgrade)
We pick up the game when the terran has 3-4 rax and has just finished their factory. This is where a decision must be made:
Vikings:
1 Starport: 150 min, 100 gas
1 Reactor: 50 min, 50 gas
Total Cost: 200 min, 150 gas ~50 sec if factory builds reactor
Banshees:
2 Starport: 300 min, 200 gas
2 Tech labs: 100 min, 50 gas
Total Cost: 400 min, 250 gas ~ 60 sec if factory builds both tech labs
Note, if the terran wants to build medivacs first he can delay the tech lab costs from the banshee build until later.
At this point the terran scouts colossus and figures he has ~ 2 min until an engagement. After 2 min:
6 Vikings:
Cost per minute: (428 min; 214 gas) *takes a little over 2 min for 6 vikings
Total Cost: 900 min, 450 gas
DPS: vs Colossus: 84 (-6 per armor upgrade)
or
4 Banshees:
Cost per minute: (300 min; 200 gas)
Total Cost: 600 min, 400 gas
DPS: vs all: 76.8 (-6.4 per armor upgrade)
Notice, the lower cost of the banshees has more than offset the cost of the extra starport / tech lab.
Now that we have our stats, which position do you prefer?
Fact: Costs are equal, therefore bio army is equal for either option
Vikings:
Pro: +~7.2 DPS vs colossus, + 3 range, may be able to get free snipe on colossus (ex: center area on XNC), larger total health pool.
Con: During "dancing" phase vikings can't shoot ground, dps drops to 12 when landed.
Banshees:
Pro: Can shoot ground units, much more resistant to stalkers (light), additional infrastructure (starport), harass opportunities if engage doesn't happen, saves (128min, 14 gas) per min if continues past 2 min.
Con: ~8% lower dps vs Colossus, wont get free snipe on colossus in transit.
Therefore, which option do you prefer? Remember, you will have the same size bio army with either option. Also remember, a protoss switch to air after this point is irrelevant as you have the ability to produce 2 vikings in each setup.
Edit: Banshee
Pro: If the stalkers die, the banshees force the retreat.
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the reason why people get vikings vs colossus is not because it has good damage, its because it matches colossus range without splashing ur own units due to chargelots aka tanks
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I like any idea that incites terran changes so we can get a less QQ.
Shame about one thing though. Getting banshees wouldn't be a huge sad moment when you find there are no colossus.... however if their are no colossus or less of them then there would be ht's with feedback. Down go the banshees.
Can cloak be fitted anywhere in there so then you can a) drain energy b) harras without throwing away units?
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vikings out range stalkers, it allows terran to actually damage colossus rather than being force fielded away, banshee doesn't allow that.
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You did alot of math about cost-effectiveness and DPS but you've missed the main points why viking > banshee. Yes, you did cursorily mention some at the bottom of the post, but in reality, they are quite game-breaking:
- Viking build time is 42 sec and banshee is 60 sec. This is a HUGE difference and will let someone get 6 vikings (126 sec) far faster than 4 banshees (240 sec). Techlab or reactor build-time is not that important since they are often built on the factory.
- Medivacs come from reactors as well.
- The viking range is super important, banshees will get shot-down fast if they approach the protoss army.
In conclusion:
Real in-game situations > stats.
The only time when banshee > viking is when going for a sky-terran style.
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Reasons why vikings are better:
Range (huge reason)
- most of the time with vikings you want to be abusing cliffs and terrain to hit colossus before the battle starts. this is a big deal.
Lower initial cost
- 90% of the time, when you're building a port in your build order, you're not gonna have enough extra gas. this is the time when stim, +1, combat shields, etc are all being started.
Targetting/target priority
- related to the range / cliffs - when you're trying to pick off colossi, it is easier if you can just amove and they'll hit the right thing from full range.
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United States132 Posts
- Viking build time is 42 sec and banshee is 60 sec. This is HUGE difference and will let someone get 6 vikings far faster than 4 banshees.
- Medivacs come from reactors as well.
You get 4 banshees before 6 vikings in the example above. Contrary to popular belief medivacs come out of non-reactored starports as well  .
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Thor banshee seems to be incredibly powerful versus collosus based armies but i don't think i've ever seen it used as a non all in. That being said i've also never seen it lose except by ryung who is a slayers terran and their tvp cannot be trusted. 
Banshees with a marine marauder army though doesn't seem as effective. I think high templar just counter everything in your army.
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On December 16 2011 12:56 Pokebunny wrote:
Reasons why vikings are better:
Range (huge reason)
- most of the time with vikings you want to be abusing cliffs and terrain to hit colossus before the battle starts. this is a big deal.
Lower initial cost
- 90% of the time, when you're building a port in your build order, you're not gonna have enough extra gas. this is the time when stim, +1, combat shields, etc are all being started.
Targetting/target priority
- related to the range / cliffs - when you're trying to pick off colossi, it is easier if you can just amove and they'll hit the right thing from full range.
This sums up some good points. Also, you will start making Vikings in response to colossus tech otherwise you will be making medivacs so you likely already have the reactor star port unless you mean to make two star ports for medivacs in which case it'd be inefficient in the case they don't go colossus.
Edit: after reading the op again I guess you mean to say you scout colossus tech before your first star port but I'm not really sure how that actual timing works out so that needs looking into. In that case pokebunny is right in saying you are pretty starved on gas initially as you need to get out lots of upgrades for the bio force and you won't have your third gas before starport unless you want to sacrifice barracks production.
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On December 16 2011 13:00 jrdn wrote:Show nested quote +- Viking build time is 42 sec and banshee is 60 sec. This is HUGE difference and will let someone get 6 vikings far faster than 4 banshees.
- Medivacs come from reactors as well. You get 4 banshees before 6 vikings in the example above. Contrary to popular belief medivacs come out of non-reactored starports as well.
I don't understand you? 6 vikings take 126 seconds to build whilst 4 banshees take 240 seconds? You've forgotten that reactors allow building 2 units at once?
Ok, I read the OP more carefully and i can see that you're advocating 2 starports for the banshee. Anyways, I don't see where a terran is going to find all the resources for this.
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Vikings.
Vikings are 50 less gas and you can produce x2 the amount.
Reactor vikings synchonrizes with reactor medivacs but with banshees, you cant produce x2.
Vikings have greater range than banshees and allows for kiting.
Viking does more damage to the colosseus than the banshee does
With mass banshees, that's heavy investment in gas which you could have put in upgrades/medivacs which is important vs a toss death ball
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Vikings have superior range so their able to shoot the colossi from a far so they don't get sniped by stalkers. Also, the viking can be produced 2 at a time because of the reactor and since terran players want to get medivacs asap, and medivac production can be cut instantly if needed.
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United States132 Posts
On December 16 2011 12:56 Pokebunny wrote:
Reasons why vikings are better:
Range (huge reason)
- most of the time with vikings you want to be abusing cliffs and terrain to hit colossus before the battle starts. this is a big deal.
Lower initial cost
- 90% of the time, when you're building a port in your build order, you're not gonna have enough extra gas. this is the time when stim, +1, combat shields, etc are all being started.
Targetting/target priority
- related to the range / cliffs - when you're trying to pick off colossi, it is easier if you can just amove and they'll hit the right thing from full range.
Certainly you want to be trying to pick off colossus from range, however, it seems as though most of the time the terran might get a few shots off (or may not....losing vikings in the process) and the protoss can retreat to regen. I do agree that the micro involved with the vikings is far simpler.
What about the benefits of the banshees being able to shoot the ground units as well, though? Most of the time there is significant repositioning between the armies before the engage, during which time the banshees can be doing over 50 dps?
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United States132 Posts
On December 16 2011 13:02 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 13:00 jrdn wrote:- Viking build time is 42 sec and banshee is 60 sec. This is HUGE difference and will let someone get 6 vikings far faster than 4 banshees.
- Medivacs come from reactors as well. You get 4 banshees before 6 vikings in the example above. Contrary to popular belief medivacs come out of non-reactored starports as well. I don't understand you? 6 vikings take 126 seconds to build whilst 4 banshees take 240 seconds? You've forgotten that reactors allow building 2 units at once?
In the example above you have 2 starports with tech labs.
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United States132 Posts
On December 16 2011 13:03 LighT. wrote:
Vikings.
Vikings are 50 less gas and you can produce x2 the amount.
Reactor vikings synchonrizes with reactor medivacs but with banshees, you cant produce x2.
Viking does more damage to the colosseus than the banshee does
With mass banshees, that's heavy investment in gas which you could have put in upgrades/medivacs which is important vs a toss death ball
Please read OP.
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On December 16 2011 13:03 LighT. wrote:
Vikings.
Vikings are 50 less gas and you can produce x2 the amount.
Reactor vikings synchonrizes with reactor medivacs but with banshees, you cant produce x2.
Vikings have greater range than banshees and allows for kiting.
Viking does more damage to the colosseus than the banshee does
With mass banshees, that's heavy investment in gas which you could have put in upgrades/medivacs which is important vs a toss death ball
I agree with this post mostly, plus I will add that they ENTIRE point of the battle is to kill the Colossus of the Protoss. The battle basically turns on whether or not the Colossus die quickly (Terran Wins) or slowly (Protoss wins).
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United States2186 Posts
You need to address concerns about feedback to make this comparison valid. Yes you can get around feedback either by wasting energy with cloak, which is not the most flexible option, or emping your own banshees which means you must have a huge amount of gas to afford that many ghosts to waste mana. But if you don't do either and the protoss brings out templar, you just lost.
Also versus colossus armies gateway units are mostly just fodder; colossus are the real threat. Most major terran victories versus colossus armies rely on the vikings to take out colossus before the latter can get enough hits on bio. Vikings kill colossus very fast from afar, which is why they are a given. Banshees simply do damage too slow and don't give you the ability to snipe colossus before the battle. Your best case scenario with banshees is if all their stalkers/archons die and the protoss army has to retreat until they can warp in more. This can work as a surprise move especially versus players who tend to overmake zealots with no stalkers but as a regular strategy? Forget it. There's a reason viking is the go-to unit.
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United States132 Posts
On December 16 2011 13:14 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 13:03 LighT. wrote:
Vikings.
Vikings are 50 less gas and you can produce x2 the amount.
Reactor vikings synchonrizes with reactor medivacs but with banshees, you cant produce x2.
Vikings have greater range than banshees and allows for kiting.
Viking does more damage to the colosseus than the banshee does
With mass banshees, that's heavy investment in gas which you could have put in upgrades/medivacs which is important vs a toss death ball I agree with this post mostly, plus I will add that they ENTIRE point of the battle is to kill the Colossus of the Protoss. The battle basically turns on whether or not the Colossus die quickly (Terran Wins) or slowly (Protoss wins).
However, remember that if you have banshees, instead of vikings the terran will win if the colossus dies or if the stalkers die. When you have a strong air-to-ground contingent the rules of the engagement can change!
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United States132 Posts
On December 16 2011 13:14 Ver wrote:
You need to address concerns about feedback to make this comparison valid. Yes you can get around feedback either by wasting energy with cloak, which is not the most flexible option, or emping your own banshees which means you must have a huge amount of gas to afford that many ghosts to waste mana. But if you don't do either and the protoss brings out templar, you just lost.
Also versus colossus armies gateway units are mostly just fodder; colossus are the real threat. Most major terran victories versus colossus armies rely on the vikings to take out colossus before the latter can get enough hits on bio. Vikings kill colossus very fast from afar, which is why they are a given. Banshees simply do damage too slow and don't give you the ability to snipe colossus before the battle. Your best case scenario with banshees is if all their stalkers/archons die and the protoss army has to retreat until they can warp in more. This can work as a surprise move especially versus players who tend to overmake zealots with no stalkers but as a regular strategy? Forget it. There's a reason viking is the go-to unit.
Versus HT: Certainly there are difficulties with an energy unit vs the HT (feedback and storm); however, there are options available...I prefer the cloak route to start and then teching to ghosts as available. Either way I think you're better off with banshees vs HT than you are with vikings.
Versus Colossus: If you have a banshee squad with your army you can continue to stutter step backward, your banshees included. In this way your infantry will target zealot and stalker and your banshees will target stalkers. If the stalkers are gone then the colossus will be forced to retreat and your marauders can mow down the retreating gateway army. Especially with other builds where you have more banshees, the focus of the battle shifts from the colossus to the stalker.
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jrdn can you please address the issue of viking range? the main reason that vikings are used is because of the ridiculous range they have. some people even call them the siege tanks of the sky
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EPT
