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The purpose of this thread is to discuss whether vikings are superior to banshees in a typical TvP game.
Game parameters: We assume fast bio expand from terran (to eliminate 'unfair' advantage if opened banshees for example) and the toss opened some sort of fast expo into colossus. I believe these parameters are worth discussing as: 1) this is typical of ~75% of TvP's (or they transition here after early pressure), 2) this isolates the viking / banshee variable.
Unit Stats:
Viking:
Cost: 150 min, 75 gas, 42 sec (214min, 107gas) per minute; 2 food; 125hp
DPS: vs Colossus: 14 (-1.0 per armor upgrade), vs ground: 12 (-1.0)
Banshee:
Cost: 150 min, 100 gas, 60 sec (150min, 100gas) per minute; 3 food; 140hp
DPS: vs all: 19.2 (-1.6 per armor upgrade)
We pick up the game when the terran has 3-4 rax and has just finished their factory. This is where a decision must be made:
Vikings:
1 Starport: 150 min, 100 gas
1 Reactor: 50 min, 50 gas
Total Cost: 200 min, 150 gas ~50 sec if factory builds reactor
Banshees:
2 Starport: 300 min, 200 gas
2 Tech labs: 100 min, 50 gas
Total Cost: 400 min, 250 gas ~ 60 sec if factory builds both tech labs
Note, if the terran wants to build medivacs first he can delay the tech lab costs from the banshee build until later.
At this point the terran scouts colossus and figures he has ~ 2 min until an engagement. After 2 min:
6 Vikings:
Cost per minute: (428 min; 214 gas) *takes a little over 2 min for 6 vikings
Total Cost: 900 min, 450 gas
DPS: vs Colossus: 84 (-6 per armor upgrade)
or
4 Banshees:
Cost per minute: (300 min; 200 gas)
Total Cost: 600 min, 400 gas
DPS: vs all: 76.8 (-6.4 per armor upgrade)
Notice, the lower cost of the banshees has more than offset the cost of the extra starport / tech lab.
Now that we have our stats, which position do you prefer?
Fact: Costs are equal, therefore bio army is equal for either option
Vikings:
Pro: +~7.2 DPS vs colossus, + 3 range, may be able to get free snipe on colossus (ex: center area on XNC), larger total health pool.
Con: During "dancing" phase vikings can't shoot ground, dps drops to 12 when landed.
Banshees:
Pro: Can shoot ground units, much more resistant to stalkers (light), additional infrastructure (starport), harass opportunities if engage doesn't happen, saves (128min, 14 gas) per min if continues past 2 min.
Con: ~8% lower dps vs Colossus, wont get free snipe on colossus in transit.
Therefore, which option do you prefer? Remember, you will have the same size bio army with either option. Also remember, a protoss switch to air after this point is irrelevant as you have the ability to produce 2 vikings in each setup.
Edit: Banshee
Pro: If the stalkers die, the banshees force the retreat.
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the reason why people get vikings vs colossus is not because it has good damage, its because it matches colossus range without splashing ur own units due to chargelots aka tanks
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I like any idea that incites terran changes so we can get a less QQ.
Shame about one thing though. Getting banshees wouldn't be a huge sad moment when you find there are no colossus.... however if their are no colossus or less of them then there would be ht's with feedback. Down go the banshees.
Can cloak be fitted anywhere in there so then you can a) drain energy b) harras without throwing away units?
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vikings out range stalkers, it allows terran to actually damage colossus rather than being force fielded away, banshee doesn't allow that.
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You did alot of math about cost-effectiveness and DPS but you've missed the main points why viking > banshee. Yes, you did cursorily mention some at the bottom of the post, but in reality, they are quite game-breaking:
- Viking build time is 42 sec and banshee is 60 sec. This is a HUGE difference and will let someone get 6 vikings (126 sec) far faster than 4 banshees (240 sec). Techlab or reactor build-time is not that important since they are often built on the factory.
- Medivacs come from reactors as well.
- The viking range is super important, banshees will get shot-down fast if they approach the protoss army.
In conclusion:
Real in-game situations > stats.
The only time when banshee > viking is when going for a sky-terran style.
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Reasons why vikings are better:
Range (huge reason)
- most of the time with vikings you want to be abusing cliffs and terrain to hit colossus before the battle starts. this is a big deal.
Lower initial cost
- 90% of the time, when you're building a port in your build order, you're not gonna have enough extra gas. this is the time when stim, +1, combat shields, etc are all being started.
Targetting/target priority
- related to the range / cliffs - when you're trying to pick off colossi, it is easier if you can just amove and they'll hit the right thing from full range.
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- Viking build time is 42 sec and banshee is 60 sec. This is HUGE difference and will let someone get 6 vikings far faster than 4 banshees.
- Medivacs come from reactors as well.
You get 4 banshees before 6 vikings in the example above. Contrary to popular belief medivacs come out of non-reactored starports as well  .
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Thor banshee seems to be incredibly powerful versus collosus based armies but i don't think i've ever seen it used as a non all in. That being said i've also never seen it lose except by ryung who is a slayers terran and their tvp cannot be trusted. 
Banshees with a marine marauder army though doesn't seem as effective. I think high templar just counter everything in your army.
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On December 16 2011 12:56 Pokebunny wrote:
Reasons why vikings are better:
Range (huge reason)
- most of the time with vikings you want to be abusing cliffs and terrain to hit colossus before the battle starts. this is a big deal.
Lower initial cost
- 90% of the time, when you're building a port in your build order, you're not gonna have enough extra gas. this is the time when stim, +1, combat shields, etc are all being started.
Targetting/target priority
- related to the range / cliffs - when you're trying to pick off colossi, it is easier if you can just amove and they'll hit the right thing from full range.
This sums up some good points. Also, you will start making Vikings in response to colossus tech otherwise you will be making medivacs so you likely already have the reactor star port unless you mean to make two star ports for medivacs in which case it'd be inefficient in the case they don't go colossus.
Edit: after reading the op again I guess you mean to say you scout colossus tech before your first star port but I'm not really sure how that actual timing works out so that needs looking into. In that case pokebunny is right in saying you are pretty starved on gas initially as you need to get out lots of upgrades for the bio force and you won't have your third gas before starport unless you want to sacrifice barracks production.
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On December 16 2011 13:00 jrdn wrote:Show nested quote +- Viking build time is 42 sec and banshee is 60 sec. This is HUGE difference and will let someone get 6 vikings far faster than 4 banshees.
- Medivacs come from reactors as well. You get 4 banshees before 6 vikings in the example above. Contrary to popular belief medivacs come out of non-reactored starports as well.
I don't understand you? 6 vikings take 126 seconds to build whilst 4 banshees take 240 seconds? You've forgotten that reactors allow building 2 units at once?
Ok, I read the OP more carefully and i can see that you're advocating 2 starports for the banshee. Anyways, I don't see where a terran is going to find all the resources for this.
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Vikings.
Vikings are 50 less gas and you can produce x2 the amount.
Reactor vikings synchonrizes with reactor medivacs but with banshees, you cant produce x2.
Vikings have greater range than banshees and allows for kiting.
Viking does more damage to the colosseus than the banshee does
With mass banshees, that's heavy investment in gas which you could have put in upgrades/medivacs which is important vs a toss death ball
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Vikings have superior range so their able to shoot the colossi from a far so they don't get sniped by stalkers. Also, the viking can be produced 2 at a time because of the reactor and since terran players want to get medivacs asap, and medivac production can be cut instantly if needed.
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On December 16 2011 12:56 Pokebunny wrote:
Reasons why vikings are better:
Range (huge reason)
- most of the time with vikings you want to be abusing cliffs and terrain to hit colossus before the battle starts. this is a big deal.
Lower initial cost
- 90% of the time, when you're building a port in your build order, you're not gonna have enough extra gas. this is the time when stim, +1, combat shields, etc are all being started.
Targetting/target priority
- related to the range / cliffs - when you're trying to pick off colossi, it is easier if you can just amove and they'll hit the right thing from full range.
Certainly you want to be trying to pick off colossus from range, however, it seems as though most of the time the terran might get a few shots off (or may not....losing vikings in the process) and the protoss can retreat to regen. I do agree that the micro involved with the vikings is far simpler.
What about the benefits of the banshees being able to shoot the ground units as well, though? Most of the time there is significant repositioning between the armies before the engage, during which time the banshees can be doing over 50 dps?
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On December 16 2011 13:02 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 13:00 jrdn wrote:- Viking build time is 42 sec and banshee is 60 sec. This is HUGE difference and will let someone get 6 vikings far faster than 4 banshees.
- Medivacs come from reactors as well. You get 4 banshees before 6 vikings in the example above. Contrary to popular belief medivacs come out of non-reactored starports as well. I don't understand you? 6 vikings take 126 seconds to build whilst 4 banshees take 240 seconds? You've forgotten that reactors allow building 2 units at once?
In the example above you have 2 starports with tech labs.
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On December 16 2011 13:03 LighT. wrote:
Vikings.
Vikings are 50 less gas and you can produce x2 the amount.
Reactor vikings synchonrizes with reactor medivacs but with banshees, you cant produce x2.
Viking does more damage to the colosseus than the banshee does
With mass banshees, that's heavy investment in gas which you could have put in upgrades/medivacs which is important vs a toss death ball
Please read OP.
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On December 16 2011 13:03 LighT. wrote:
Vikings.
Vikings are 50 less gas and you can produce x2 the amount.
Reactor vikings synchonrizes with reactor medivacs but with banshees, you cant produce x2.
Vikings have greater range than banshees and allows for kiting.
Viking does more damage to the colosseus than the banshee does
With mass banshees, that's heavy investment in gas which you could have put in upgrades/medivacs which is important vs a toss death ball
I agree with this post mostly, plus I will add that they ENTIRE point of the battle is to kill the Colossus of the Protoss. The battle basically turns on whether or not the Colossus die quickly (Terran Wins) or slowly (Protoss wins).
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United States2186 Posts
You need to address concerns about feedback to make this comparison valid. Yes you can get around feedback either by wasting energy with cloak, which is not the most flexible option, or emping your own banshees which means you must have a huge amount of gas to afford that many ghosts to waste mana. But if you don't do either and the protoss brings out templar, you just lost.
Also versus colossus armies gateway units are mostly just fodder; colossus are the real threat. Most major terran victories versus colossus armies rely on the vikings to take out colossus before the latter can get enough hits on bio. Vikings kill colossus very fast from afar, which is why they are a given. Banshees simply do damage too slow and don't give you the ability to snipe colossus before the battle. Your best case scenario with banshees is if all their stalkers/archons die and the protoss army has to retreat until they can warp in more. This can work as a surprise move especially versus players who tend to overmake zealots with no stalkers but as a regular strategy? Forget it. There's a reason viking is the go-to unit.
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On December 16 2011 13:14 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 13:03 LighT. wrote:
Vikings.
Vikings are 50 less gas and you can produce x2 the amount.
Reactor vikings synchonrizes with reactor medivacs but with banshees, you cant produce x2.
Vikings have greater range than banshees and allows for kiting.
Viking does more damage to the colosseus than the banshee does
With mass banshees, that's heavy investment in gas which you could have put in upgrades/medivacs which is important vs a toss death ball I agree with this post mostly, plus I will add that they ENTIRE point of the battle is to kill the Colossus of the Protoss. The battle basically turns on whether or not the Colossus die quickly (Terran Wins) or slowly (Protoss wins).
However, remember that if you have banshees, instead of vikings the terran will win if the colossus dies or if the stalkers die. When you have a strong air-to-ground contingent the rules of the engagement can change!
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On December 16 2011 13:14 Ver wrote:
You need to address concerns about feedback to make this comparison valid. Yes you can get around feedback either by wasting energy with cloak, which is not the most flexible option, or emping your own banshees which means you must have a huge amount of gas to afford that many ghosts to waste mana. But if you don't do either and the protoss brings out templar, you just lost.
Also versus colossus armies gateway units are mostly just fodder; colossus are the real threat. Most major terran victories versus colossus armies rely on the vikings to take out colossus before the latter can get enough hits on bio. Vikings kill colossus very fast from afar, which is why they are a given. Banshees simply do damage too slow and don't give you the ability to snipe colossus before the battle. Your best case scenario with banshees is if all their stalkers/archons die and the protoss army has to retreat until they can warp in more. This can work as a surprise move especially versus players who tend to overmake zealots with no stalkers but as a regular strategy? Forget it. There's a reason viking is the go-to unit.
Versus HT: Certainly there are difficulties with an energy unit vs the HT (feedback and storm); however, there are options available...I prefer the cloak route to start and then teching to ghosts as available. Either way I think you're better off with banshees vs HT than you are with vikings.
Versus Colossus: If you have a banshee squad with your army you can continue to stutter step backward, your banshees included. In this way your infantry will target zealot and stalker and your banshees will target stalkers. If the stalkers are gone then the colossus will be forced to retreat and your marauders can mow down the retreating gateway army. Especially with other builds where you have more banshees, the focus of the battle shifts from the colossus to the stalker.
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jrdn can you please address the issue of viking range? the main reason that vikings are used is because of the ridiculous range they have. some people even call them the siege tanks of the sky
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
I think banshees could be superior to vikings in some situations, but it is much harder to utilise them properly, and would change the game a lot more than just amoving with unit A instead of unit B.
It is something that could maybe be explored in the future to see if it was valid as a potential strategy, but it would take a lot of change to effectively use banshees as your only anti-colossi force i think.
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vikings out-range the collosi, and they can be produced two at a time, so they can snipe collosi if they're too close to a cliff.
Banshees are better in some circumstances though. then again, HTs can feedback them ...
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Banshees are super hard countered by phenoix, vikings are not. Therefore you would need to get vikings anyway even if you had banshees....it would become very hard to micro effectively, I just don't see it although I like the idea with the light vs stalkers factor.
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On December 16 2011 13:24 fuzzy_panda wrote:
jrdn can you please address the issue of viking range? the main reason that vikings are used is because of the ridiculous range they have. some people even call them the siege tanks of the sky
Sure . The viking's range is indeed impressive. In addition to having the possibility of getting pot shots on the colossus (not always possible) you will set the maximum range that the colossus can advance to. The only problem with the viking is during the battle itself it can become very marginalized. At this point in our example we have (900 min, 450 gas) invested in units that can only attack a very small (however important) portion of our opponents army. If the protoss micro's his colossus so that the vikings have to take heavy stalker fire, or if the colossus micro backward, extending the fight in a retreat with colossus covering the retreating zealots, even if the colossus die the best case is you traded your resources for his (vikings kill colossus and did nothing else). With the banshees you have strong opportunities to kill the colossus, or if not kill other parts of his army. The dps for the banshee is pretty close to that of the viking, plus I'll wager that the banshees will do more dps over the course of an engagement when you factor in all the time the viking is just floating there.
I'd like to re-emphasize as well, when you have banshees the focus of the fight is not necessarily the colossus. You, the terran, now have a piece of tech that the protoss has to respond to or else he will not trade anywhere near efficiently.
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On December 16 2011 13:36 statikg wrote:
Banshees are super hard countered by phenoix, vikings are not. Therefore you would need to get vikings anyway even if you had banshees....it would become very hard to micro effectively, I just don't see it although I like the idea with the light vs stalkers factor.
Remember though, if your opponent is starting to pump phoenix he will have to cut somewhere else. He will either have less gateway units or less colossus. Therefore, if he pumps phoenix you can simply just pump more bio and steamroll.
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Banshees are quite good early on but Vikings become better as the game goes on due to as others have said, Range.
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vikings have 9 range, banshess don't. Vikings do good enough damage to deal with collossus with out getting in range of their AA. Hence why banshees are viable regardless of their lack of cloak and dps
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idn I'd be thrilled to play vs no vikings and banshees instead. As long as I have ~12 stalkers with my army and reenforce with ~5 more I should have no problem taking out a bio force that's light in medivacs. You will have absolutely no ability to touch my collosi with your banshees without being in range of my stalkers, and with good force fields my collosi will be able to kill basically infinite bio. And I'm pretty sure I could just hit a 2 collosi range timing before you had a significant amount of banshees anyways (assuming i figure out what you're doing ^^)
so, I'm all for it lol
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On December 16 2011 13:44 doner0 wrote:
vikings have 9 range, banshess don't. Vikings do good enough damage to deal with collossus with out getting in range of their AA. Hence why banshees are viable regardless of their lack of cloak and dps
There are additional benefits to the banshee route, however. Remember, most of your army is bio. If you are building banshees the protoss is going to be adding more stalkers (forced or else banshees become extremely effective vs army with minimal AA). This will do a few things. It will decrease the number of zealots he is warping in (needs to use warp in for stalker). Additionally, it will slow down his tech / limit his tech units. Because the protoss can't spam zealots, he will have less gas for HT, colossus, or other tech.
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On December 16 2011 13:39 jrdn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 13:36 statikg wrote:
Banshees are super hard countered by phenoix, vikings are not. Therefore you would need to get vikings anyway even if you had banshees....it would become very hard to micro effectively, I just don't see it although I like the idea with the light vs stalkers factor. Remember though, if your opponent is starting to pump phoenix he will have to cut somewhere else. He will either have less gateway units or less colossus. Therefore, if he pumps phoenix you can simply just pump more bio and steamroll.
You spend money to make banshees, he spends money to make phenoix, you have to spend more to deal with the collosus since the pheonix are owning your banshees so hard, hence you lose out on this transaction.
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going banshees instead of vikings forces you to engage protoss in order to kill collosi because of the banshee's limited range. so assuming an engagement is started, what will you do when protoss ffs your army and kills your banshees?
with a viking's range, the viking will start out much farther away and will have a much easier time retreating and will actually be basically on the terran army when its attacking, but banshees are forced to be right on the other stalkers in order to do damage to collosi
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On December 16 2011 13:56 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 13:39 jrdn wrote:On December 16 2011 13:36 statikg wrote:
Banshees are super hard countered by phenoix, vikings are not. Therefore you would need to get vikings anyway even if you had banshees....it would become very hard to micro effectively, I just don't see it although I like the idea with the light vs stalkers factor. Remember though, if your opponent is starting to pump phoenix he will have to cut somewhere else. He will either have less gateway units or less colossus. Therefore, if he pumps phoenix you can simply just pump more bio and steamroll. You spend money to make banshees, he spends money to make phenoix, you have to spend more to deal with the collosus since the pheonix are owning your banshees so hard, hence you lose out on this transaction.
First off, the first phoenix is at least 60 sec away. It is probably going to be at least 2 min before he has enough phoenix to do anything to your banshees (your banshees stay above your bio when you know there are phoenix around). Meanwhile, after another 2 min you can either have 6 vikings of your own to fight the air (you have 2 starports afterall). In addition to whatever other buildings your put down (if you put down 2 more ports you could have 6 vikings plus 2 more banshees, or if you put down more rax you can really output a ground force, or you could have cloak). Either way, if you are unable to get to the colossus you can camp over your bio near the battle line and start raining down hell on the toss gateway units (note...if the stalkers can shoot the banshees, the marauders can shoot the stalkers). Not to mention that it takes a +2 stalker 12 hits to kill a banshee.
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On December 16 2011 12:56 Pokebunny wrote:
Reasons why vikings are better:
Range (huge reason)
- most of the time with vikings you want to be abusing cliffs and terrain to hit colossus before the battle starts. this is a big deal.
Lower initial cost
- 90% of the time, when you're building a port in your build order, you're not gonna have enough extra gas. this is the time when stim, +1, combat shields, etc are all being started.
Targetting/target priority
- related to the range / cliffs - when you're trying to pick off colossi, it is easier if you can just amove and they'll hit the right thing from full range.
Best Answer.
I always like when someone posts there with "great" idea and thinks pros hasnt figured it out 
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This thread is going round-and-round in circles: A -> B -> C -> D -> E -> A
Anyways, in this kind of situation, I resort to my standard, "show me the proof". The OP argues that banshees are superior to vikings in a "TvP standard game" but cites 0 examples in pro-play and provides 0 replays. All I see in this thread is a bunch of theorycraft which ignores real-game situations.
Banshees can be superior to vikings if the build is designed for it, e.g. sky-terran, 1-1-1 all-in, etc. I even recall a GSL game where Jinro pops down 3-starports and makes banshees but that was used as a surprise weapon. I myself made a post about sky-terran, heavily involving banshees: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=175014.
However, I was advocating a niche style of play and I recognise that in a "standard game" it is clearly viking > banshee.
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On December 16 2011 14:03 dhe95 wrote:
going banshees instead of vikings forces you to engage protoss in order to kill collosi because of the banshee's limited range. so assuming an engagement is started, what will you do when protoss ffs your army and kills your banshees?
with a viking's range, the viking will start out much farther away and will have a much easier time retreating and will actually be basically on the terran army when its attacking, but banshees are forced to be right on the other stalkers in order to do damage to collosi
The beauty of the banshee play is if you can't get to the colossus you can engage the gateway units from the safety of your line. Banshees are extremely durable to gateway AA. At this point you can stutter step your whole army backwards, banshees included, and destroy the gateway units following. At some point all the zealots will be gone, and you can turn back on the protoss, stim up and engage stalkers (closer to you due to faster movement speed) with bio and banshees. You now probably have some bio and some banshees. The colossus will have to retreat or die and he is forced into stalkers instead of tech.
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The only build i see terrans usually have success with mass banshees instead of viking in TvP is the synester 4port, however phoenix's/HT/Archons can put a big hurt if the protoss is smart. A big point of the build is to have the element of surprise by hiding the ports. In battle, a scan or raven allows the terran to snipe of the observer with a thor/viking/marines. Typically, most protoss will have one observer and afterwards be in deep doodoo. If the protoss is able to prepare by having multiple observers spread out and bringing them in after one is killed, the protoss doesn't really have much trouble with dealing with the build.
The reason you can't go mass banshee on standard is 1) Banshees have less range. To risk flying your air so close to stalkers is pretty dangerous, plus you can't really go around sniping and harassing colossus as well.
2) Reactored starports are more convenient as well since you can go from medivac to double viking or do both simultaneously.
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On December 16 2011 14:24 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:
The only build i see terrans usually have success with mass banshees instead of viking in TvP is the synester 4port, however phoenix's/HT/Archons can put a big hurt if the protoss is smart. A big point of the build is to have the element of surprise by hiding the ports. In battle, a scan or raven allows the terran to snipe of the observer with a thor/viking/marines. Typically, most protoss will have one observer and afterwards be in deep doodoo. If the protoss is able to prepare by having multiple observers spread out and bringing them in after one is killed, the protoss doesn't really have much trouble with dealing with the build.
The reason you can't go mass banshee on standard is 1) Banshees have less range. To risk flying your air so close to stalkers is pretty dangerous, plus you can't really go around sniping and harassing colossus as well.
2) Reactored starports are more convenient as well since you can go from medivac to double viking or do both simultaneously.
1) The idea is to use the banshees to snipe the colossus if you can abuse terrain (or are otherwise safe from stalkers). If this is unavailable, the banshees are still available to do their dps to ground units. It takes 14 hits from an un-upgraded stalker (13 from +1) to kill a banshee. If this is a standard fight and you did the worst thing you could (sacrificed your banshees for even 0 damage) you just soaked up 56 stalker shots. I am extremely confident that by this time the zealots are long gone, and your bio is now pushing on his relatively naked colossus.
2) Your second point is not applicable as if you went banshees you would have 2 starports...and you could even upgrade medic energy .
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My issue with the viking option is you make such a large investment (vikings are not cheap!) for a completely defensive unit that has 1 real purpose. If the vikings are unable to fulfill that purpose in any way (stalkers killed off vikings and 1.5 colossus are still alive, he only made 1 colossus, etc) you essentially wasted those resources.
With the banshee option you have a unit that can fulfill many roles (harass - most common, army dps - most underused, tech advantage - flying and cloak). In the end it is the player who most efficienty gathers and uses his resources that wins the game. I really feel that many terrans are shooting themselves in the foot by creating such a specialist unit - viking who best case trades his value away (netting you zero value gained).
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It's probally been posted but you've ignored the possibility of cloak for banshees as well. That said, I think banshees are a bit more difficult to control in an actual engagement scenario and the ability to drop colossi from out of range is a huge asset, but I'm also a P player. Cloak and Obs snipe during combat is a very viable option as well however I suppose.
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For some reason i thought that banshees did more DPS to collo... well maybe that is why im so bad lol, also you can make 2 vikings at a time so if you dont spot the colo till late you still have a chance to get some out before you die.. Also like people have said before the range is so good i have tired to use banshees for anti collo ( cause i thought that the banshee did more dps at the time ) and i would always get them picked off by stalkers. and sometimes when Toss knows you are going to go air for anti collo they will make Pho , which a banshee will be kinda defense less.
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On December 16 2011 13:00 jrdn wrote:Show nested quote +- Viking build time is 42 sec and banshee is 60 sec. This is HUGE difference and will let someone get 6 vikings far faster than 4 banshees.
- Medivacs come from reactors as well. You get 4 banshees before 6 vikings in the example above. Contrary to popular belief medivacs come out of non-reactored starports as well .
A little side note you could also grab the medivac upgrade for more energy off the bat maybe equaling out some more. interesting though
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banshees work quiet okay against fast colossi, especially if you get a raven along, if you add vikings to this you can even snipe the obs and use cloak. Depends how good your unit control is as those are 3 very different units to control. But they work wonders together giving any toss a hard time if they teched really fast.
And its not to costly to add a second starport a bit later, especially since techlab means you can get some upgrades. While I don't want to encourage people to use it, because it really depends on your playstyle, medivac energy is something to consider getting as against colossi you won't have a constant stream of medivacs making it really important to keep your army at health (since it will be really marauder heavy). So you don't end up like most terrans after they beat the main toss army, everything in the red hehe and empty medivacs.
Banshees cost more supply and in an engagement are more likely to die, so they need a bit more of micro (pull back out of range when red and let them hit zealots hehe), makes them more expensive then vikings, who generally stay alive even if your ground army looses. Banshees are perfect at the start for harassment so the first 4-8 banshees are mostly worth their cost, but are weak to stargate play (as a toss i would always add a stargate if i scout a techlab starport), and once the stalkers reach one shot mass+ blink, the banshees die to fast, so there needs to be a transition into vikings at some point. But as long as a banshee group of 4 or more remains it is a huge deal when it comes to engagements, as they can go for a pylon all kills and other things.
Pure vikings is the less concentration costing way though.
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I'm Protoss, but I feel Vikings are still superior.
The range really is the issue. Maybe its harder for a Stalker to take down a Banshee, but there is this cool thing called focus firing. Target Banshees 1 at a time and they go down pretty easy.
Also, if you scout Colossi, are you really going to have enough time to pump out enough Banshees to actually focus down 2 or 3 Colossi? Doesn't seem very feasible to me.
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You can preserve vikings better while keeping protoss from pushing hard with a lot of colossi. Banshee has good dps, but when you engage 4 banshees against 8+ stalkers, you basically lose your banshee in 2 shots. By the time you kill 1 stalker and damage another, you just lost 1 banshee. Your DPS decreases by 25% while the stalker army loses less than half of that. You could argue your land army will also be attacking the stalkers, but a couple of forcefields and guardian shield will minimize the damage enough to give protoss the resource advantage in kills.
In a scenario where protoss goes colossi, I think vikings are the better choice. At worst, they can be used to scout, be meat shields for your MMM army, harassment on the mineral line (land, attack and fly off), or even tank spotters should you decide you wanna try mech instead. At best, you took down their best DPS dealers efficiently and you ripped their ground army to shreds. At that point, you are likely heavily favored to win. Whether they can effectively deal damage is a moot point.
That said, vikings aren't a general strategy against protoss, and they never were. So it's not really an argument to say banshees are better against protoss in general than the viking. Banshees are great harass units, but if you are going to argue in favor of DPS, i'd replace them with marines and marauders and use the extra gas on upgrades. a handful of marauders coming from the flank can take down colossi pretty fast.
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On December 16 2011 13:14 Ver wrote:
You need to address concerns about feedback to make this comparison valid. Yes you can get around feedback either by wasting energy with cloak, which is not the most flexible option, or emping your own banshees which means you must have a huge amount of gas to afford that many ghosts to waste mana. But if you don't do either and the protoss brings out templar, you just lost.
Also versus colossus armies gateway units are mostly just fodder; colossus are the real threat. Most major terran victories versus colossus armies rely on the vikings to take out colossus before the latter can get enough hits on bio. Vikings kill colossus very fast from afar, which is why they are a given. Banshees simply do damage too slow and don't give you the ability to snipe colossus before the battle. Your best case scenario with banshees is if all their stalkers/archons die and the protoss army has to retreat until they can warp in more. This can work as a surprise move especially versus players who tend to overmake zealots with no stalkers but as a regular strategy? Forget it. There's a reason viking is the go-to unit.
Well it only takes 1-2 EMPs since you can stack... also, burning your energy down to 25 or lower should nullify the affect of the HTs, but someone could math that out.
Also keep in mind that getting 1 HT means losing 0.75 Colossus, in gas.
But I do agree with you, the 9 range is very important.
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Netherlands19135 Posts
Does not adress feedback and the whole topic is nothing more then dataless theorycrafting which has no place on TL.
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EPT
