|
Mvp's run through IEM has stirred up the ladder, with lots of terrans trying out this new meching style. As a way to help against the tough mech pushes, I have experimented around with new things to help against this style.
With queens being stronger now, having them out in a small squad has become a standard. Some prefer going for 6 queens and just go bonkers on the drones, while others get gas up faster and rely on 4 or less. There are two major benefits to the strength of Queens, we can drone up more easily because we don't have to invest in gas, and we don't have to invest gas into defenses as much. You can invest any gas that you took earlier into faster tech while still staying safe.
Back to the context of mech. Mech has really big weaknesses in the stages where it is still setting up, the lack of anti air, the tight timings to get thors out in time and few production facilities to build from. All of this almost screams at zergs to try out overseers against mech. Something we can easily support with the leftover gas we take in.
What I've done to try and exploit this hole is this opening:
Get gas around or before 20 supply – 2 drones in gas
2x Queen
3 drones in gas after you start speed
2 x Queen
Melee or Carapace upgrade depending on your preference
2nd extractor
Lair
Melee or Carapace depending on what upgrade you're already upgrading
Spend gas depending on what you need
With the 4 queens, you can easily rely on speedling support to ward off any 1 base attack or 2 base harass. Only if they go really mad on the hellion production do you need to add roaches.
Once your lair finishes and you have examined the terrans build enough to come to the conclusion of mech ( large amount of hellions out, maybe hellion into banshee harass on your third base like Mvp does ) you can add in the overseers. I like to range from atleast 4 all the way up to 8. Any defense against an early mech push can be held with a small squad of roaches anyway, so you're pretty much safe from dying even if you get the overseers up in large numbers.
What you do with the contaminate is up to you. What I like to do is go for a huge roach swell and move out to his third, contaminating right before I make the push. The terran cannot have enough thors or tanks out to defend his third and will have to lift it. You can deny the mining on the third for a long time with the roaches while saturating your third up all the way back at home. If he didn't get a third and wanted to go for a huge Hellion-Thor timing attack, you've just gotten enough time for another round of roaches. You delay his push for so long that you can overpower him with your huge roach numbers.
Replays of this specific build
http://drop.sc/242232
Replays of overseers in ZvT
http://drop.sc/227151
http://drop.sc/239049
http://drop.sc/239050
http://drop.sc/239051
http://drop.sc/242233
I want this thread not to be just about this build, but the idea of getting overseers up earlier to deny the terrans production and upgrades for some time to set up more interesting timings. If anybody has experience or feedback about it all, leave it here and maybe we'll all learn something new.
|
If you can get overseers in to delay seige mode, and follow up with a roach bane timing, that is a pretty good application. This seems like an early game thing though, because after terran has seige mode and blue flame delays on other upgrades are not necessarily significant.
A mass roach drop timing is also really strong against mech. MVP lost in a game in GSL R32 to Suhsin (something like that, former zenexline). A faster layer helps with that, although I think it would be stronger off of three base so the timings might make it better to get a later gas.
|
Interesting ill try this out  mind you mech was never a huge problem for me while oddly bio is/was.
|
On August 23 2012 05:03 mothergoose729 wrote:
If you can get overseers in to delay seige mode, and follow up with a roach bane timing, that is a pretty good application. This seems like an early game thing though, because after terran has seige mode and blue flame delays on other upgrades are not necessarily significant.
A mass roach drop timing is also really strong against mech. MVP lost in a game in GSL R32 to Suhsin (something like that, former zenexline). A faster layer helps with that, although I think it would be stronger off of three base so the timings might make it better to get a later gas.
I think you underestimate the tight unit requirements mech has when getting a third base. I've checked my first replay of this build and I have about 6 overseers flying in at 12:15. To give you an overview of what Mvp had at that time in the 2nd game of the finals in IEM: His first two thors, +1/+1 for mech, siegemode hadn't started yet and he was still producing banshees. His anti-air was abysmal considering his ebay is still building at this stage. In another game in the quarter finals, he was in the very same position with blueflame and siegemode starting between 12:15 and 12:30. In both of these games he had two command centers building right now. Which means he actually had very little if anything to defend against a huge roach swell if he was delayed by half a minute on everything. He would be forced to lift his third up, which would delay gas mining by a ton, until his army was big enough to shoo away the roach army. Meanwhile, you can even let an overlord spew creep there if you had one nearby still, delaying it even more, allowing you to get a huge economic lead and transition into broodlord tech much more easily.
You're right that it is the most applicable in the early to mid game ( generally between 12 minutes and 14 minutes is what I like to do ) but it definitely has some merits in the lategame too, if you can delay raven upgrades and contaminate starports to delay viking/battlecruiser production.
|
What about stopping any thor production and rushing + massing muta? No way that terran will survive.
|
This is really clever. My only fear is how Terrans might adapt to defend this, including turrets, placing tech further in the base, etc (this probably won't happen for a long time). Even so, forcing turrets would be some good damage.
|
On August 23 2012 19:02 Qwyn wrote:
This is really clever. My only fear is how Terrans might adapt to defend this, including turrets, placing tech further in the base, etc (this probably won't happen for a long time). Even so, forcing turrets would be some good damage.
The only real thing that kills overseers and overlords fast enough is marines. Sure it hurts flying through 3 turrets, but you'll still get to pull off the contaminates if you had an extra overseer or two. But mech doesn't get marines out, not in the opening stages. The barracks is used for reactor and techlab production. I've hardly ever met a meching terran that goes for anything more than a full bunker of marines.
Even if they have marines, they have to be inside the base en masse to stop a group of overseers from delaying everything. I've pulled it off against marine tank as well, mostly delaying the infantry upgrades and factory production.
I don't find overseers that noteworthy against Protoss however. Most of the timings happen before the 12 minute mark so it doesn't help against any early attacks. It can help to delay the 16 minute collosus stalker push by a bit though.
|
It might be worth researching overlord speed after you make that first batch of overseers. The speed should kick in before you accumulate enough energy for the first round of contaminates. It'll also help your normal overlords get in position to drop creep on your opponent's expos. If you research burrow too you'll have some of the best CC harassment tools available: burrowed roaches with overseers potentially locking out scans, and fast overlords against an opponent with potentially limited thor production.
|
If you contaminate a CC, it cannot lift, can it? Could make the difference to punish greedy expansions.
|
It's an interesting idea, but as far as I'm aware the Gas timing doesn't have to be at ~18 as opposed to at ~40, the Lair and the Banshee's should arrive at more or less the same time in game so you'll have plenty of time to detect for Banshees and produce additional Overlseers to Contaminate. The problem tho' is that it's only a surprise tactic and not a solid strategy, Mech can deviate it's follow up timings to the Hellion cointainment and Banshee harassment by either building a Viking after 2 Banshees to clear Overlords and build an Engineering Bay for Missile Turrets before he builds his Armories for Thors. At that point, you have to ask yourself what do you follow this up with? Mutalisks are largely ineffective vs MVP's Modern Mech style because he expects and prepares for the Mutalisk counter attack. I've played numerous games on both sides of TvZ, and I've had to use my Mutalisks in order to harass his 3rd as opposed to his main base because there were either Missile Turrets or Thors already up. I really feel Mutalisks can't do anything more than either push back the Hellion containment and Banshee Harass and harass the Terran's 3rd reliably.
|
It can lift, provided there's nothing building. If you contaminate while an SCV is buildling you might get an extra volley or two off with roaches if your opponent doesn't know to cancel production.
|
On August 23 2012 20:57 MoonCricket wrote:
It's an interesting idea, but as far as I'm aware the Gas timing doesn't have to be at ~18 as opposed to at ~40, the Lair and the Banshee's should arrive at more or less the same time in game so you'll have plenty of time to detect for Banshees and produce additional Overlseers to Contaminate. The problem tho' is that it's only a surprise tactic and not a solid strategy, Mech can deviate it's follow up timings to the Hellion cointainment and Banshee harassment by either building a Viking after 2 Banshees to clear Overlords and build an Engineering Bay for Missile Turrets before he builds his Armories for Thors. At that point, you have to ask yourself what do you follow this up with? Mutalisks are largely ineffective vs MVP's Modern Mech style because he expects and prepares for the Mutalisk counter attack. I've played numerous games on both sides of TvZ, and I've had to use my Mutalisks in order to harass his 3rd as opposed to his main base because there were either Missile Turrets or Thors already up. I really feel Mutalisks can't do anything more than either push back the Hellion containment and Banshee Harass and harass the Terran's 3rd reliably.
Its a 300 gas investment, that's the equivelant of getting an infestation pit and pathogen glands. The whole point of this is that even if the terran scouts it, he has to way overmake anti air to even defend against getting his buildings contaminated. This strategy is not 'alright I contaminated your factories... I didn't kill him? GG'.
The point of the early gas is to get earlier upgrades to improve your zerglings instead of putting all your eggs in one basket and saying 'welp, I'm going all in on overseers'. It is a minimal investment to give you a specific timing to go bonkers on roaches and attack his third. You can easily transition into anything normal afterwards.
Let's say he scouts my overseers at 11 minutes. If he hasn't started his engineering bay then, he can't rely on turrets to get him anti air in time, leaving only marines and thors ( if he had the armory already ). Thors don't kill overseers until they get in huge numbers, and mech generally only has one barracks to build marines from. On top of that, if I move in from any other direction where the anti-air isn't, I will still get off the contaminates and fly away.
To say that this in any way an all in surprise strategy strikes me as baffling, considering you don't call making 12 banelings all in either.
|
On August 23 2012 21:42 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 20:57 MoonCricket wrote:
It's an interesting idea, but as far as I'm aware the Gas timing doesn't have to be at ~18 as opposed to at ~40, the Lair and the Banshee's should arrive at more or less the same time in game so you'll have plenty of time to detect for Banshees and produce additional Overlseers to Contaminate. The problem tho' is that it's only a surprise tactic and not a solid strategy, Mech can deviate it's follow up timings to the Hellion cointainment and Banshee harassment by either building a Viking after 2 Banshees to clear Overlords and build an Engineering Bay for Missile Turrets before he builds his Armories for Thors. At that point, you have to ask yourself what do you follow this up with? Mutalisks are largely ineffective vs MVP's Modern Mech style because he expects and prepares for the Mutalisk counter attack. I've played numerous games on both sides of TvZ, and I've had to use my Mutalisks in order to harass his 3rd as opposed to his main base because there were either Missile Turrets or Thors already up. I really feel Mutalisks can't do anything more than either push back the Hellion containment and Banshee Harass and harass the Terran's 3rd reliably. Its a 300 gas investment, that's the equivelant of getting an infestation pit and pathogen glands. The whole point of this is that even if the terran scouts it, he has to way overmake anti air to even defend against getting his buildings contaminated. This strategy is not 'alright I contaminated your factories... I didn't kill him? GG'. The point of the early gas is to get earlier upgrades to improve your zerglings instead of putting all your eggs in one basket and saying 'welp, I'm going all in on overseers'. It is a minimal investment to give you a specific timing to go bonkers on roaches and attack his third. You can easily transition into anything normal afterwards. Let's say he scouts my overseers at 11 minutes. If he hasn't started his engineering bay then, he can't rely on turrets to get him anti air in time, leaving only marines and thors ( if he had the armory already ). Thors don't kill overseers until they get in huge numbers, and mech generally only has one barracks to build marines from. On top of that, if I move in from any other direction where the anti-air isn't, I will still get off the contaminates and fly away. To say that this in any way an all in surprise strategy strikes me as baffling, considering you don't call making 12 banelings all in either.
I never said it was an "All In" strategy, I said it was a surprise tact that can be pre-emptively countered by the production of a Viking after 2 Banshees and Missile Turrets in the case of Mutalisks. I'm not confident in the effectiveness of the Mutalisk counter attack, because the Terran knows it's the only way you can push out of your base and into his base at the ~10 minute mark and therefore he goes straight for Missile Turrets and Thors. The Oversees may work once, but the problem is the Banshees can scout for the Overseers as they harass, require 2 of the Overseers to follow them and can produce a Viking in order to kill the three Overlords at their main base, their natural and their third, while denying detction from Overseers and killing them as they approach his base if necessary. Right now producing the Viking after the 2nd Banshee is underrated, but I think it'll become the predominant strategy as people realize it automatically kills at least 300 minerals of units and sets back Zerg 24 supply as well. They already have micro and macro difficulty defending their 3rd base, adding supply caps on top of it can be debilitating.
I've been analyzing the 4 Queen, 2 Gas at 40 supply builds a lot after watching MVP vs Vortix and MVP vs Nerchio in the IEM finals, and I've been questioning what the 2 Gas at 40 supply is really for. Vortix spends his first 500 gas on Zergling speed, 2 level 1 upgrades, Lair and Baneling Nest in that order, and in each of his games he ends up having to either A) sacrifice his 7:00 3rd or B) move the Queens out of position, build Zerglings and expose his natural and main base to Hellions and exhaust his larva on handfuls of cost ineffective units in order to have a chance of saving his 7:00 3rd. I'm not convinced it's tactically sound because you can't hold your ground with only 4 Queens and Speedlings as well as you can with 6 Queens and Slowlings.
So either we need to A) skip Zergling speed, take a Macro Hatch and spend either our first 100 gas on a faster Lair or our first 350 gas on 2 level 1 upgrades and a faster Lair or B) skip Zergling seed, build a Roach Warren and use the additional gas to build Roaches vs Hellions to either secure our 3rd or attack his natural base. If we're going Mutalisk, Zerglings, Baneling, we can research Zerg speed at the same time we research Baneling speed when the Lair finishes or we can research Roach speed if we know he's going mech and attack into either his natural base or his 3rd base with just Mutalisks and Roaches.
I think if we're taking gas at 18 supply, then we're taking gas in order to either research Zergling speed, build a Baneling Nest and then bust his natural base or build a Roach Warren and attack his natural base with a handful of Roaches. The problem tho' is that we have a mineral cap on building 4 Queens and Droning when we've lost 1 Drone on the Extractor and 3 Drones to mining gas. An early Roach push may be able to harass the opponent's natural, but I don't think it'll be able to win the game if they have a Bunker with 2 Marines, a partial Supply Depot wall, a handful of Hellions and a Banshee on the way. Once it's dealt with, we'll be economically behind and open to either a counter attack or contained to 2 bases. A Baneling Bust may have a better chance to win outright, but it also has a better chance to be hard countered by Hellions as well.
That leaves 6 Queens and 4 Gas at 52 supply, and I think this may be the best way to go, because we can either spread more Creep Tumors, reserve energy for Transfuses and conserve Larva for Droning because we don't have to respond to Hellions and Banshees with as many Zerglings with 6 Queens as we have to with only 4 Queens and we can just spend our first 350 gas on 2 level 1 upgrades and the Lair while delaying Zergling speed to line up with the Spire. We could also just build a Roach Warren for dealing with emergencies and pushing at the 3rd to take advantage of the opponent wasting minerals on Missile Turrets and cutting Siege Tanks for Thors in anticipation of Mutalisks and just immediately tech to Infestors, an 11:00 Hive and go straight for a Greater Spire, 3-3 upgrades and Cracklings. Provided the 6 Queens and Roaches can establish our 3rd, it'd also be possible to research Pneumatisized Carapice and Ventral Sacs and drop the opponent's main base any time the Thors move out because they don't have a fast enough unit or the correct unit to respond with. If we're teching directly into Infestors, Hive and Greater Spire, I think we could possibly delay Zergling Speed all the way to starting the Hive and only use Slowlings to reinforce a faltering defense when we have gas caps for Roaches, or in order to attack an exposed base after the Roaches have traded with the Hellions. Zerglings are just terrible vs Mech as soon as Hellions have Infernal Pre-Igniter, they can't take, hold or recover ground effectivelyl in the match up if they're opposed by Hellions and I think they're only useful for tech switches.
That's how I view the match up right now from a strategic standpoint, so I guess it's a question of choosing your gas timings at 18, 40 or 52 and deciding what timing you want to try and exploiting with Overseers and Corruption with what unit mixture you want to follow it up with. I don't think Mutalisks will be effective against the mainbase where you'll run into Missile Turrets or spawning Thors, and Roaches have to contend with free DPS from Banshees and bonus DPS from any Marauders he manages to build. I guess it's a question of whether or not Mutalisks can effectively harass the 3rd or whether or not the opponent can hold a swell of Roaches at his natural while you buy time with Corruption? Regardless, I don't think you have to take an early gas in order to try it out, because the timings line up anyway.
In the end, I think the use of Roaches and delaying the Zergling speed upgrades are two of the key issues in the match up, Hellions are just unfair vs Zerglings with or without the speed upgrade and the increased creep generation of these 4+ Queen builds reduces its overall value for defense. As long as Mech expands with Planetary Fortresses, they're not even particularly good as counter attack units because they can be stalled long enough for Blue Flame Hellions to respond.
The match up is definitely rough for us right now, if you have any replays where this works I'd be happy to take a look at them.
|
On August 24 2012 03:05 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 21:42 Chaosvuistje wrote:On August 23 2012 20:57 MoonCricket wrote:
It's an interesting idea, but as far as I'm aware the Gas timing doesn't have to be at ~18 as opposed to at ~40, the Lair and the Banshee's should arrive at more or less the same time in game so you'll have plenty of time to detect for Banshees and produce additional Overlseers to Contaminate. The problem tho' is that it's only a surprise tactic and not a solid strategy, Mech can deviate it's follow up timings to the Hellion cointainment and Banshee harassment by either building a Viking after 2 Banshees to clear Overlords and build an Engineering Bay for Missile Turrets before he builds his Armories for Thors. At that point, you have to ask yourself what do you follow this up with? Mutalisks are largely ineffective vs MVP's Modern Mech style because he expects and prepares for the Mutalisk counter attack. I've played numerous games on both sides of TvZ, and I've had to use my Mutalisks in order to harass his 3rd as opposed to his main base because there were either Missile Turrets or Thors already up. I really feel Mutalisks can't do anything more than either push back the Hellion containment and Banshee Harass and harass the Terran's 3rd reliably. Its a 300 gas investment, that's the equivelant of getting an infestation pit and pathogen glands. The whole point of this is that even if the terran scouts it, he has to way overmake anti air to even defend against getting his buildings contaminated. This strategy is not 'alright I contaminated your factories... I didn't kill him? GG'. The point of the early gas is to get earlier upgrades to improve your zerglings instead of putting all your eggs in one basket and saying 'welp, I'm going all in on overseers'. It is a minimal investment to give you a specific timing to go bonkers on roaches and attack his third. You can easily transition into anything normal afterwards. Let's say he scouts my overseers at 11 minutes. If he hasn't started his engineering bay then, he can't rely on turrets to get him anti air in time, leaving only marines and thors ( if he had the armory already ). Thors don't kill overseers until they get in huge numbers, and mech generally only has one barracks to build marines from. On top of that, if I move in from any other direction where the anti-air isn't, I will still get off the contaminates and fly away. To say that this in any way an all in surprise strategy strikes me as baffling, considering you don't call making 12 banelings all in either. I never said it was an "All In" strategy, I said it was a surprise tact that can be pre-emptively countered by the production of a Viking after 2 Banshees and Missile Turrets in the case of Mutalisks. I'm not confident in the effectiveness of the Mutalisk counter attack, because the Terran knows it's the only way you can push out of your base and into his base at the ~10 minute mark and therefore he goes straight for Missile Turrets and Thors. The Oversees may work once, but the problem is the Banshees can scout for the Overseers as they harass, require 2 of the Overseers to follow them and can produce a Viking in order to kill the three Overlords at their main base, their natural and their third, while denying detction from Overseers and killing them as they approach his base if necessary. Right now producing the Viking after the 2nd Banshee is underrated, but I think it'll become the predominant strategy as people realize it automatically kills at least 300 minerals of units and sets back Zerg 24 supply as well. They already have micro and macro difficulty defending their 3rd base, adding supply caps on top of it can be debilitating.
It takes a viking 8 salvos to kill an overseer, which is about 16 seconds. This would make the viking kill off an overseer pack of 6 in roughly one and a half minute. If I can get my overseers out of your vision and sneak them away from your viking ( which I will do ) you won't be able to stop any contaminates from going down because missile turrets simply don't kill overseers fast enough. All I need to contaminate 6 buildings is 15 seconds at maximum. I don't see how you could kill off the squad before the delaying damage has been done.
On August 24 2012 03:05 MoonCricket wrote:
I think if we're taking gas at 18 supply, then we're taking gas in order to either research Zergling speed, build a Baneling Nest and then bust his natural base or build a Roach Warren and attack his natural base with a handful of Roaches. The problem tho' is that we have a mineral cap on building 4 Queens and Droning when we've lost 1 Drone on the Extractor and 3 Drones to mining gas. An early Roach push may be able to harass the opponent's natural, but I don't think it'll be able to win the game if they have a Bunker with 2 Marines, a partial Supply Depot wall, a handful of Hellions and a Banshee on the way. Once it's dealt with, we'll be economically behind and open to either a counter attack or contained to 2 bases. A Baneling Bust may have a better chance to win outright, but it also has a better chance to be hard countered by Hellions as well.
What makes you think that you HAVE to pressure with a gas taken at 18 supply? I simply don't go double gas at 40, I slowly add the extra extractors down instead of going in pairs of two. You're kind of just going off about the gas timing rather than the actual strategy I am suggesting.
On August 24 2012 03:05 MoonCricket wrote:
That's how I view the match up right now from a strategic standpoint, so I guess it's a question of choosing your gas timings at 18, 40 or 52 and deciding what timing you want to try and exploiting with Overseers and Corruption with what unit mixture you want to follow it up with. I don't think Mutalisks will be effective against the mainbase where you'll run into Missile Turrets or spawning Thors, and Roaches have to contend with free DPS from Banshees and bonus DPS from any Marauders he manages to build. I guess it's a question of whether or not Mutalisks can effectively harass the 3rd or whether or not the opponent can hold a swell of Roaches at his natural while you buy time with Corruption? Regardless, I don't think you have to take an early gas in order to try it out, because the timings line up anyway.
Where are you getting mutalisks from? I've put in the OP that I follow it up by huge roach pressure on the third. You can just shrug at the damage from a banshee once you have more than 30 roaches. And I clearly said I do this against mech, AKA no marauders.
On August 24 2012 03:05 MoonCricket wrote:
The match up is definitely rough for us right now, if you have any replays where this works I'd be happy to take a look at them.
... So yeah you didn't see the whole replay section?
|
No, I didn't see the replay section, I'll download the replays and have a look for myself.
I discussed both Mutalisks and Roaches because they're the only two units that allow you to break your opponent's contain and apply pressure. In both cases, I'm considering the effects of taking the two Overseers I've already built for detection vs Banshees and using them to Contaminate the two Factories with Thors in production in order to give my Mutalisks more attack time on the opponent's mineral lines instead of deviating from my 40 supply or 52 supply gas timings. The reason I said we have to pressure with gas at 18 supply is because we're damaging our economy in order to get said gas, and getting said gas solely for the purpose of Zergling speed is not worth it and we can afford to delay the Lair for awhile. Granted it's an assumption, but considering the amount of larva we can save by investing in Queens for defense and the amount of minerals it takes in order to produce Queens and Drone, it's hard to be able to do everything at once without something having to give.
One Viking can't stop 6 Overseers from Contaminating for 30 seconds, but that's assumming you spend 300 gas on Overseers when that amount of detection is excessive and you have an abundance of gas when you're trying to get 2 level 1 upgrades, a Lair, Roaches, speed upgrades, a Spire, 2 level 2 upgrades etc. and if your plan is to chain Contaminate the Factories then the Viking is going to have the ability to kill at least 2 Overseers with energy in the 30 second window in addition to any Overseers it killed en route to their first Contaminate. If you're building 6 Overseers to Contaminate 6 different buildings, what buildings are your Contaminating? The major targets are the 2 Factories with Tech Labs, the Starport with a Tech Lab and the Factory with a Reactor. I figured stopping the Thors is our primary, therefore 2 Contaminate should be enough?
You're mistaken if you think your Mech opponent doesn't have access to Marauders, pay attention to the Barracks after they lift it for the Starport, because they'll land the Barracks and build a second Tech Lab in order to either A) be able to build 1 Marauder and put him into the Bunker with their 2 Marines or B) be able to build a Factory onto it in order to get out their Thors as quickly as possible. Even if they skip the Marauder for the Bunker, they can still build a Marauder in case of an early Roach push. Regardless, there's no reason for them not to build the Marauders when they're assaulting the 3rd Hatchery, it's either additional reinforcements or pre-emptive counter measures vs Roaches for when you push their forces back. If you're playing Mech and you're leaving the Barracks idle than you're doing it wrong, because even tho' Marauders don't fit into the mid-game composition their still extra units you could be producing to attack or defend when you're starved for unit production in the early game.
Don't get me wrong, I personally think delaying the Thors with Contaminate has merrit, I'm just questiong whether or not it should be a strategic goal of our build order or a tactic we employ after we've built 2 Overseers vs Banshees as normal. The reason I rambled about the gas timings is because I think if we skip the Zergling speed and get a faster Lair then we really never have any reason to mine gas any earlier. And even if we did get Zergling Speed, I think we can still just build Overseers after we lay the Spire and stall them 30 seconds if we have 116 seconds until the Mutalisks spawn at worst.
Basically, I don't think Contaminate has to dictate our build order or gas timings.
|
Did you try this against me? cause someone made like six overseers as i was pushing his base, he tried to fast tech to broodlords and made a ton of overseers which where enroute to my base when i pushed his fourth, i thought it was stupid, 600 wasted gas and i was already almost maxed even if he tried mass contaminate it wouldnt last long enough.
|
On August 24 2012 07:34 Pookie Monster wrote:
Did you try this against me? cause someone made like six overseers as i was pushing his base, he tried to fast tech to broodlords and made a ton of overseers which where enroute to my base when i pushed his fourth, i thought it was stupid, 600 wasted gas and i was already almost maxed even if he tried mass contaminate it wouldnt last long enough.
The only way I tend to do it is doing that three base push into roaches, then later on again if the overseers survived. Did you play on the EU ladder as well?
|
So I've managed to put in testing games and I'm 100% right about the 2nd Barracks Tech Lab and Marauder, if Terrans scout an 18 gas into a Roach attack then he must build the Tech Lab and produce the Marauder if he wants his Bunker to provide maximum DPS and it helps to reinforce the assault on Zerg's 3rd base, see MVPvsTarga http://day9.tv/d/Day9/mvp-t-vs-targa-z-iem-gamescom-day-1-bracket-2-round-4/ where MVP fails to build the Tech Lab and Marauder and the Roaches manage to give Targa either a winning chance or severe economic disruption that can be followed by a transition. I think both players played sub-optimally here, with MVP being caught off guard by the Roach timing and Targa failing to build a 2nd Queen for his Larva Injects. I'm not certain if failing to build the 2nd Queen is a function of 18 gas or not, but it goes to show you the potential economic problems of early gas in the match up. I think if you build the Tech Lab, the Marauder for the Bunker and a Viking after the 2nd Banshee you could significantly improve your build order as Terran in tight timings. Likewise, I'm also certain that starting the 3rd Command Center before the Starport is a serious mistake because it's a marginal economic gain in exchange for potentially allowing Zerg to win immediately with the Roach timing.
I've been reconsidering the build order in order to punish Command Center 1st via;
10 Drone
Extractor Trick
11 Drone
11 Overlord
Scout with the 11th Drone to look for A) Proxy Barracks B) Gas 1st C) Command Center 1st and D) Barracks Expands, in case of A) we sacrifice the Drone to harass the SCV on the Barracks, drone to 15, take an Extractor, build 4 pairs of Zerglings, build an Overlord and then build our Queen and follup up as necessary. In the case of B) and D) we steel their gas in order to delay both Cloaked Banshee and the 2nd Tech Lab into Marauder. In the case of C) we harass the SCV and can either 1) Drone to 16, build an Extractor and build 3 pairs of Zerglings for harassment or 2) Drone to 16, build a Queen, build an Extractor and build 1 Pair of Zerglings, Build an Overlord, Expand and build the 2nd Queen and the Roach Warren in order for the 2nd Queen to line up with the Expand (I'm working on perfecting the timings in order to find the best trade off between the Roach harassment and the economic follow up) or 3) same as above but prioritize the 2nd Queen and take Zergling speed and a Baneling Nest instead.
Regardless, having more Larva with the 1st Queen and being able to build the Roach Warren quicker can improve the timing and effectiveness of the attack, where getting their quicker vs the Banshee and Marauder are pivotal. Hopefully the 11 Spawning Pool and the 18 Gas can force Terrans into concenssions some where within their build order even if we only get Zergling speed and pull our Drones from Gas or never put our Drones in Gas at all and play mind games with him.
So far, I haven't found taking earlier gas and/or over-building Overseers to be effective, because I think the main problem is that we're forgetting that Terrans don't have to take Mech and could just be transitioning into Stim Pack and Reactor Barracks where Contaminating isn't nearly as effective as it is vs only 2 Factories building Thors. However with the 4 Queen, 40 Gas Timing I think A) taking a 7:00 Macro Hatch and delaying Zergling speed for Lair and turtling on 2 bases for a Mutalisk push out could be the best exploit vs A) an Army that can't shoot up and B) we could possibly deny the Mech transition by getting our Mutalisks out faster and Contaminating the Thors while their in production and take our 3rd behind the harassment.
Only building 4 Queens and hanging the 3rd Expansion is just bad fwiw, unless you're pushing out with Roaches, turtling for Mutalisks or both you should just take 6 Queens instead.
Another possible exploit besides building a Roach Warren or pushing back with Mutalisks is to take a 2xSpire and upgrade the Mutalisks and just stay on Lair tech longer than they expect, Or start by getting Ranged Attacks as one of our first upgrades and just upgrade our Roaches knowing the opponent has to get Thors or Marines before Tanks or lose to Mutalisks.
I've also always been sending my 2nd Overlord in order to immediately spread Creep on my opponent's 3rd base and my 1st pair of Zerglings to his ramp in order to contain the Marines and know immediately whether or not he's trying to take a fast 3rd.
|
On August 24 2012 19:23 MoonCricket wrote:So I've managed to put in testing games and I'm 100% right about the 2nd Barracks Tech Lab and Marauder, if Terrans scout an 18 gas into a Roach attack then he must build the Tech Lab and produce the Marauder if he wants his Bunker to provide maximum DPS and it helps to reinforce the assault on Zerg's 3rd base, see MVPvsTarga http://day9.tv/d/Day9/mvp-t-vs-targa-z-iem-gamescom-day-1-bracket-2-round-4/ where MVP fails to build the Tech Lab and Marauder and the Roaches manage to give Targa either a winning chance or severe economic disruption that can be followed by a transition. I think both players played sub-optimally here, with MVP being caught off guard by the Roach timing and Targa failing to build a 2nd Queen for his Larva Injects. I'm not certain if failing to build the 2nd Queen is a function of 18 gas or not, but it goes to show you the potential economic problems of early gas in the match up. I think if you build the Tech Lab, the Marauder for the Bunker and a Viking after the 2nd Banshee you could significantly improve your build order as Terran in tight timings. Likewise, I'm also certain that starting the 3rd Command Center before the Starport is a serious mistake because it's a marginal economic gain in exchange for potentially allowing Zerg to win immediately with the Roach timing. I've been reconsidering the build order in order to punish Command Center 1st via; 10 Drone Extractor Trick 11 Drone 11 Overlord Scout with the 11th Drone to look for A) Proxy Barracks B) Gas 1st C) Command Center 1st and D) Barracks Expands, in case of A) we sacrifice the Drone to harass the SCV on the Barracks, drone to 15, take an Extractor, build 4 pairs of Zerglings, build an Overlord and then build our Queen and follup up as necessary. In the case of B) and D) we steel their gas in order to delay both Cloaked Banshee and the 2nd Tech Lab into Marauder. In the case of C) we harass the SCV and can either 1) Drone to 16, build an Extractor and build 3 pairs of Zerglings for harassment or 2) Drone to 16, build a Queen, build an Extractor and build 1 Pair of Zerglings, Build an Overlord, Expand and build the 2nd Queen and the Roach Warren in order for the 2nd Queen to line up with the Expand (I'm working on perfecting the timings in order to find the best trade off between the Roach harassment and the economic follow up) or 3) same as above but prioritize the 2nd Queen and take Zergling speed and a Baneling Nest instead. Regardless, having more Larva with the 1st Queen and being able to build the Roach Warren quicker can improve the timing and effectiveness of the attack, where getting their quicker vs the Banshee and Marauder are pivotal. Hopefully the 11 Spawning Pool and the 18 Gas can force Terrans into concenssions some where within their build order even if we only get Zergling speed and pull our Drones from Gas or never put our Drones in Gas at all and play mind games with him.
Mind if you put the replays of those test games here?
On August 24 2012 19:23 MoonCricket wrote:
So far, I haven't found taking earlier gas and/or over-building Overseers to be effective, because I think the main problem is that we're forgetting that Terrans don't have to take Mech and could just be transitioning into Stim Pack and Reactor Barracks where Contaminating isn't nearly as effective as it is vs only 2 Factories building Thors. However with the 4 Queen, 40 Gas Timing I think A) taking a 7:00 Macro Hatch and delaying Zergling speed for Lair and turtling on 2 bases for a Mutalisk push out could be the best exploit vs A) an Army that can't shoot up and B) we could possibly deny the Mech transition by getting our Mutalisks out faster and Contaminating the Thors while their in production and take our 3rd behind the harassment.
If he is transitioning into bio after going for reactor factory - starport I won't need to build any roaches. If such a severe reaction happens just because a terran scouts my 150 mineral roach warren I'll gladly go for speedlings and banes instead and delay that third indefinitely until he gets a decent amount of tanks out. If someone transitions into bio after a banshee opening I know he has delayed his stimpack and siegemode and probably his engineering bays. Whereas my zerglings will be getting 1/1 already, making a transition to infestors and ultralisks even more deadly and difficult to hold for the terran player.
On August 24 2012 19:23 MoonCricket wrote:
Only building 4 Queens and hanging the 3rd Expansion is just bad fwiw, unless you're pushing out with Roaches, turtling for Mutalisks or both you should just take 6 Queens instead.
I've been having decent success with it because of the faster zergling speed. Just never keep your queens unprotected and only use them to delay hellions and snipe banshees. Against any 2 base opener of terran you rarely need banelings right away anyway, considering a huge flood of zerglings will obliterate any bio push without tanks.
Again though I would love to see replays rather than your explanation of your own build.
|
I'll upload replays when I get home and point out the times I'm talking about.
I'm not certain what your ladder rankings are compared to mine, but I think either my Terran or my testing partner's Terran may be better than yours, because I'm either regularly destroying the 3rd with my Hellion, Cloaked Banshee and Marauder push or barely defending my 3rd as Zerg with Speedlings and the Hellion, Marauder and Combat Shield Marine push is also extremely difficult to hold off. If Vortix and Nerchio couldn't consistently hold off losing their 3rd to MVP, when MVP's 1/1/1 and Mech play wasn't fully optimized for the push (3rd delayed his Starport, he didn't build any Marauders) then I doubt you or I can consistently hold it off either.
I don't know what you mean by delayed Stim Pack, the major deviations in the CC 1st, 1/1/1 build is whether or not you do or you don't get Cloak instead of immediately getting Stim Pack and either transitioning into Marine, Tank, Medivac, where the Stim Pack can still come out very quickly followed by Siege Mode or you can just play with Marine, Medivac, Hellion, and it's no where near as easy as you think it is to beat it. I'm not afraid of the Bio Balls as much as I am of the Mech Balls now, but it's not like Bio Balls are no longer viable just because Mech Balls have become popular all of a sudden and if we invest in a handful of Overseers to stop Thor production only to find Reactor Barracks then we're in pretty big trouble.
Note: If you don't see the Banshees Cloak, then it's a possible tell that he's probably going Bio.
Whether or not he does or doesn't transition into Bio has nothing to do with whether or not you do or you don't build Roaches. The Roaches are there to deal with the Hellions and Marauders attacking your 3rd base, because we have to deal with the 1/1/1 push and his 3rd before we worry about whether or not he's transitioning into Mech or Bio. If he's transitioning into Mech, Contaminate an interesting idea because it can buy 30 seconds for Mutalisks to harass more effectively or for Roaches to push out to the natural, but we wont know for certain until the Overseers arrive.
Right now, I don't like the 4 Queen, 2 Gas at 40 supply and 7:00 Hatchery build or any iteration that takes an earlier Gas for an earlier Zergling speed, because it's unbearably difficult to hold my 3rd compared to the 6 Queen and 4 Gas at 52 supply builds. If the 4 Queen build is good for anything, it's good for taking a 6:00 Macro Hatchery, skipping Zergling speed and taking a faster Lair where we're going to turtle on 2 bases vs his mech push and he has to overextend his Hellions, Banshees and Marauders into our natural and main base if he wants to try and do any damage (research Zergling speed in tandem with the Spire for the push out). We just shouldn't be allowing him to dictate the opening by drawing us out to defend our 3rd, as opposed to challenging him to break our skeleton defense before we can saturate 2 bases with a Macro Hatch and push out with Mutalisks vs an army that can't shoot up.
I'm pretty sure you either have to delay your Evolution Chambers for a Roach Warren if you want to be able to consistently defend your 7:00 3rd with the 4 Queen build, or turtle up into a more economical and faster 2 base Mutalisk with a 6:00 Macro Hatch and earlier Lair. Trying to defend your 7:00 3rd with just 2 Queens and Speedlings is too dangerous, especially if they're smart enough to bring 1 Marauder with the 1st Banshee and 2 more Marauders with the 2nd Banshee and continue to build Marauders and Hellions to reinforce while the Viking kills your Overlords and clears his 3rd from creep.
So, until some one shows me how to easily defend vs this 1/1/1 push with only 4 Queens and Speedlings, I'm either going to 4 Queen, Roach Warren before 2xEvolution Chambers to Expand, 4 Queen, 6:00 Macro Hatch and 2 base into Mutalisks, 6 Queen or play around with the 11 Overpool/18 Gas timings and try to find a 2 base timing with a transition. Vortix's build order is what got him killed by MVP, he saw the economical edge and harassment he could mount by opening CC 1st and attacking Vortix's 3rd while expanding behind it and none of Vortix's minor adjustments in earlier Gas timings for earlier Zergling speed mattered. It's even worse when your opponent doesn't make the mistake of trying to enter your natural and main base with his Hellions and Banshees instead of cointaing your army while he kills your 3rd and expands and builds the 3 Marauders to attack with.
All I can say is try playing the match from both sides with a competent partner and you'll see more room for Terrans to improve their attack on the 3rd than Zerg have room to defend against it and counter attack, I haven't even tried pulling the 2 Marines from the Bunker yet to attack and it's still bad 
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UapWS.png)
