Having trouble against a particular race or build? Getting tired of the long, drawn out games that just end in frustration and misery? Don't you just want to cheese a little?
Although cheese and all-ins are frowned upon (because they require no skill!), I do believe that they serve a purpose in any player's arsenal of builds, from Bronzies to Grandmasters. Starcraft is not just a game of macro: It is also a game of trickery and wit.
I finally climbed up the ladders to become a top ranked Master, and during this time I have devised a few situational builds and incorporated a few popular ones into my play-style that tend to work against standard play from other races. They're hidden, they're tricky, they're... all-ins. Although it may not require much skill from a macro-perspective, all-ins are definitely a great way to focus on your micromanagement and decision making, as unit control and positioning is crucial for making the all-in successful.
PURPOSE
This thread is intended for Protoss players who wish to expand their play-books and utilize the power and flexibility of the Protoss arsenal in a more aggressive fashion. As stated earlier, all-ins are a great way to work on decision making and micromanagement. Eventually, you will also find a knack for positioning and for understanding a race's habits.
To commit to an all-in safely requires an ability for scouting. You will learn to predict build openings of your opponents based on scouting clues and deduction. From here you can adjust your all-in or transition out of it depending on your analysis of the situation at hand. Some all-ins are blind and require a bit of luck, and a lot more of micro.
Below are some replays I have made that will give you a general, first-person perspective on the game at hand. The concept behind the builds are posted in the video descriptions.I encourage you all to critique the builds and/or adjust them to your suiting.
More builds are on the way as I utilize them or create them. Also, post your own text/video/replays of all-ins that you would like to share! The weirder the build, the more likely it will work... kind of.
Background info: as of 8/1/12: LGStrikeR, Rank 8 Master, 97 wins, 78 losses, 1324 points
As a terran player I can only really comment on your PvT strategy. Basically if I don't see a 2nd pylon I know some sneaky shit is going on. Either he is proxying a 2nd gateway for some 3stalker rush, or he is proxying 3gateways for a 4gate. Any half decent terran is going to notice the lack of a 2nd pylon and get suspicious not to mention the extremely high chronoboost level. Let's say I get unlucky and scout you late and cannot see anything. In that case I would drop a scan with my 2nd 50 energy to confirm an expo or not. As soon as I scout no expo I would immediately build a 2nd bunker and send out an scv to scout around.
There is a reason people don't really 4gate terrans, because if the terran is playing perfectly he will hold it off easily. You are really banking on the terran cutting corners or just making mistakes.
On August 12 2012 21:24 StimmedProbe wrote: As a terran player I can only really comment on your PvT strategy. Basically if I don't see a 2nd pylon I know some sneaky shit is going on. Either he is proxying a 2nd gateway for some 3stalker rush, or he is proxying 3gateways for a 4gate. Any half decent terran is going to notice the lack of a 2nd pylon and get suspicious not to mention the extremely high chronoboost level. Let's say I get unlucky and scout you late and cannot see anything. In that case I would drop a scan with my 2nd 50 energy to confirm an expo or not. As soon as I scout no expo I would immediately build a 2nd bunker and send out an scv to scout around.
There is a reason people don't really 4gate terrans, because if the terran is playing perfectly he will hold it off easily. You are really banking on the terran cutting corners or just making mistakes.
Interesting analysis. Feedback from other races are extremely helpful in refining builds and understanding their reads. I can see how a missing pylon would raise suspicion towards an all-in, but the builds as I said are purely situational. To execute this build, you do not necessarily have to proxy the other 3 gates. You just have to keep them out of sight. A majority of my games I tend to put the gates in my base since I scout the Terran earlier than expected. I just drop the 2nd pylon somewhere easy to scout. The SCV slips in, sees it, and runs off.
As for the initial stalker and the stockpiled chronoboosts: the first stalker should be able to deny any sort of scouting that would suggest a warpgate rush. However, if an SCV does manage to slip inside, the protoss can simply spend his boosts (before the SCV can see it) on a quicker economy and delay warpgate tech a few seconds.
Regardless, the build is simply a 4-gate and as you said, it can be easily held off. 3 bunkers will completely destroy this aggression. I do have a replay though where I encountered a wall of bunkers at the ramp, but I GS'd and ran my army past them and won.
Yea, i like this play style. Somehow, since i started playing sc2 i always just wanted to attack. As soon as possible. With time i learned to macro, at least to be 1000 points master player, but it's just not my cup of tea.
I like to attack at 5 min, 8 min, ... I do 11 gate build in PvP, this is nowhere near all in build but its so fun and aggressive, and if you have really strong early game micro and mechanics taking wins from top masters is just too easy. Good early micro can win you games vs perfect 3 stalker counter, that's how important is to have this aggresive micro skillz ^_^.
As for PvZ, i feel a bit ashamed, not for me but for zerg players. They play soo fucking naive, standard, greedy, and they have the nerve to call that macro! - that shit made me to develop all in from cecils opening that is early, strong, fun, aggressive and stupid and easy as hell. Here is few examples PvZ_all_ins.
PvT is the only matchup where i macro. I would soo much like to have a nice, fun all in but nothing isn't really catch my eye yet. This 4 gate is ok but i don't know, good players can't be that easily fooled like you showed in your replay. 4 gate in PvT is a little too obvious and too old.
Nice write up by you, but somehow i feel that not many people like this playstyle, like it's good for improving and shit. But i and many other players, don't want to be fucking bonjwas or pro players, its just for good fun and action packed sc2 games... and little to piss of the kids :D.
Thanks, I've been looking for good ways to all in if I feel like a fast game. By the way, your PvT video is named wrong, It says PvP in the title :p I'll try them out and post results
yea that zerg was a retard. did you see how ridiculously late his greater spire, and hive were. And who makes banelings against toss like that? just weird.
Speedbane+corruptor can be okay as a response to double stargate, which would have actually rolled you, but he didn't get spire first, he got infestors. The repeated fail bane attacks led to late tech, no army, no fourth. If he had simply gone roaches instead of banes he could have easily held those archons, although he really should have had broodlords by that time.
And why max out on voids? carriers are much better imo.
I don't think good players will go forge vs center map proxies, you can just three gate zealot defense and hold pretty easily. Your pvt build is good vs fe, but imo a later zealot/sentry 4gate with nexus cancel is a lot better. I doubt your pvz build can hold any timings, especially stephano style would completely overrun you.
As for the PvZ - you label this as an all-in, but from 3 Bases with the maxed army it is actually not. I play pure skytoss variation of this with very fast mothership and very fast third and while you do this amount of pressure you still can build 4th and 5th if you like and continue to pressure. To your composition the way it was there is a quite hard counter - hydras/infestors. Mass hydra with upgrades will shred this army quite nicely while infestors can hold your ground units in position - to deal with this you need either templars with storm (you had none), colossus (no robo) or carriers - not enough stargates in your case.
@Belial88: You cannot max voids as P - this will get rolled by infestor/hydra extremely onesided, you need some carriers (actually like 50/50 is probably the best ratio against any composition the zerg can make). And Broodlords are mostly waste of resources - voidray kill them very fast, you just need to target-fire them.
On August 12 2012 23:03 Arcanefrost wrote: I don't think good players will go forge vs center map proxies, you can just three gate zealot defense and hold pretty easily. Your pvt build is good vs fe, but imo a later zealot/sentry 4gate with nexus cancel is a lot better. I doubt your pvz build can hold any timings, especially stephano style would completely overrun you.
No, it does not (PvZ).
At the time Stephano's push comes he will have 4+ Voids and sometimes even the mothership, if he can harass good enough. Actually Airtoss if played correctely is only weak against nydus/hydra push, where nydus is done in front of P's base (not very common), because you don't have units to adequatly defend it (voids suck against hydras) and most important you can not secure your natural AND third with the mothership at the same time, because you are commiting to some gates, and therefore you will miss some cannons, which are vital to defend hydra aggression.
No way you hold it with the build from the op. His mothership isn't even halfway done when stephano style would hit, and 4 voids/3cannons/1zealot cannot hold the third. Roaches to third combined with ling runby in main and gg.
You operate in vacuum. The point is - voidrays harass Z, so he is not in position to execute Stephanos max right in time - add at least one or even two minutes to the time it will hit in reality. I mean - there are 4 void rays near your third or natural, so you need to build some freaking defense, one spore will not cut it. If you open with one phoenix it is like a given that you will either build more queens (less money, less drones) or more static defense (same) or you will lose queen(s) and base(s). I open with one stargate into mothership and have very little defense overall (expect cannons) and even then stephano's max is like the smallest problem i will ever have.
Thanks for making the tutorial videos. I have some requests if you are thinking of doing more tutorials.
PvP -- one-base blink all-in PvZ -- FFE into sentry/immortal all-in PvT -- 1 gate FE into colossi all-in PvT -- 1 gate FE into 6 gate sentry/zealot all in
On August 12 2012 23:03 Arcanefrost wrote: I don't think good players will go forge vs center map proxies, you can just three gate zealot defense and hold pretty easily. Your pvt build is good vs fe, but imo a later zealot/sentry 4gate with nexus cancel is a lot better. I doubt your pvz build can hold any timings, especially stephano style would completely overrun you.
Of course these sorts of all-ins (that require over-reaction) won't work on seasoned players who know what to do in every situation. But as you can see up until even mid masters, a defensive forge is always a likely option for them.
The Ninja 4-Gates is built around the idea of the fake expand, where you actually drop a nexus but then cancel it. However, this build allows a slight economic edge over it, and it allows you to mine just enough gas (400) for the early attack. If you can deny scouting, it works almost just as well. The buildings at the natural still trick even top masters players.
As for the PvZ SkyToss, the FFE is already a safe bet against any sort of early ling and roach aggression. If they do go for the Stephano (which hits at 12), you can easily delay it with air harassment. Also, once you scout it you should be throwing down way more cannons and be getting sentries to stall the zerg army, while your air army does work.
On August 12 2012 23:26 Arcanefrost wrote: No way you hold it with the build from the op. His mothership isn't even halfway done when stephano style would hit, and 4 voids/3cannons/1zealot cannot hold the third. Roaches to third combined with ling runby in main and gg.
The build was definitely executed messily, but Taldarim Alter is a map where a 3rd is not easily accessible. The fact that his 3rd was so late meant that his roach timing would be incredibly weak. Another guess would be that he's actually on 4 bases, which would delay his push in time for me to get adequate defenses. These replays are not a 1-size-fits-all deal. You have to adapt them to what you can see or predict.
Figured I'd share a build I've been having fun with, since you said it was okay for people to share builds. This is a PvZ build, you open stargate, then quickly tech to robotics and Colossus. You fake a third base while getting 2 colossus, and then push.
@10:30 - Third Nexus @2 Colossus - Cancel Third Nexus and push
Execution Notes:
This build relies on the Robotics Bay not getting scouted. This will work best against a player that responds to a macro Protoss with either Infestors, or Hydralisks. It will work somewhat less effectively against Roach/ling (depending on the engagement), and should have a hard time vs a fast muta build.
It is important to use the stargate units to clear up overlords around the main base, but NOT at the third base. The Zerg must be given every oppurtunity to see the third base building, so that he can react to it, but he must not be allowed into the main.
A good benchmark for the moveout would be 11:30, as this is the time Squirtle moves out against Symbol.
Pre-warpgate, only sentries should be made from the gateway, and only where gas allows. Don't delay the stargate, any of the stargate units, or the robotics, for sentries.
Haha that's a very interesting build Chelch. I heard of canceling an expansion at the natural, but it never really crossed my mind to cancel a 3rd. It seems very solid considering most zerg responses to early air is infestor or hydra play. Of course more and more zerg learn to not over-react with the hydra count, and instead go straight to spire tech. Still, the build would seem to hit at a timing where they won't have enough anti-air to stop the deathball.
I have some remarks about the skytoss build, which i always play in PvZ. 1. You don't really need WG tech that early, It's perfectly fine to get +1Air before WG. It will benefit carriers later on. 2. You should build 2 sentrys for possible BB 3. You also should build Phoenix after inital VR, for scouting. 4. Getting a HT tech is better then DT Anyway getting a MS->third is really good and an earlier MS is much better against 12min max IMO.
Awful music, and bad strategies. Nevermind you should IMO play on tournament maps (I facepalmed when I saw 2 gateways in the center on antiga, you realize one can hold that off with a standard opener and some micro?).
On August 31 2012 19:43 aintthatfunny wrote: Awful music, and bad strategies. Nevermind you should IMO play on tournament maps (I facepalmed when I saw 2 gateways in the center on antiga, you realize one can hold that off with a standard opener and some micro?).
Thank you for your positive feedback
If it is so easy to hold off with a standard opener, then I probably imagined beating several top Master Protoss players with a 2-Gate... hmm silly me!
And I'm sorry that my music preference offends you. Don't forget though, theres always the 'mute' button!
On August 31 2012 18:57 IeZaeL wrote: Hello LGStarcraft !! I love your videos !
I have a request : can you make a video about the blink stalker allin in PvT in maps like antiga ? Thank you !
You are very welcome, hopefully the builds are showing some success in your ladder matches. Also, the blink all-in video will be coming soon. (I'm in the process of making it right now haha) I will let you know when it is uploaded.
On August 31 2012 18:51 Rimak wrote: I have some remarks about the skytoss build, which i always play in PvZ. 1. You don't really need WG tech that early, It's perfectly fine to get +1Air before WG. It will benefit carriers later on. 2. You should build 2 sentrys for possible BB 3. You also should build Phoenix after inital VR, for scouting. 4. Getting a HT tech is better then DT Anyway getting a MS->third is really good and an earlier MS is much better against 12min max IMO.
I agree with all of your suggestions. In the video description, I gave credit to the original build-owner, Sidewinder, and I simply re-enacted the steps he provided in the video. Given this was my first attempt, I do admit it was pretty horrendous, haha.
As far as upgrades and tech go, it's really up to you since this build will allow massive income while relying on air superiority for harassment/defense. Getting early air upgrades will be very beneficial. I personally go for warpgate upgrades just in case I need a few reinforcements quickly. It's all situational. A scouting phoenix is also a very good idea, and I do follow up with one after my initial voidray in my current play. In this replay I happened to forget
HT tech is definitely a better option since you'll have more minerals banked for zealot warp-ins. Plus, for 50 gas per stalker on 6 geysers, gas shouldn't be an issue in this case either. Once again, this was my first attempt and I kind of winged it. :D haha.
If I may suggest, can you execute this build and upload it on youtube? I will definitely add it to the original post for others to see the more refined version.
Have you considered doing a 2 base colossus build? I used my own variant for a while with great success where the timings were something like.
1Gate expo Get another 2 gates (Around 5:50 I think) Robo (Around 6:20) Gas 3, 4 (Latest 6:50 or so, just get it after Robo before Robo bay) Robo bay ASAP After robo bay chronoboost Colossus until you have 3, building Extended thermal lance as well ofc. Drop down Additional gates up to 6 when you can afford it.
I sorta stole the build off of a Squirtle game. Being the beast he is, Squirtle gets his gates around 8 minutes in, and pushes out with about 50 supply of gateway units and 3 colossus at 11 minutes. I play no way near as efficient as him, and I remember pushing out at around 13:00 with a few more gateway units but the same colossus count and still winning the game with it. I think you have to have your 3 gateways idle for as long as possible to get optimal timings, so you have to be good at scouting to achieve perfect timings or you just die.
This is all from my platinum viewpoint, but that's what I've found from playing/watching. I'm assuming you can find the most effective way to play this, but I love this all in even when I don't play well as It's really strong :D
If the push fails though, you have no Twilight council, no forges etc, so you have to do a ton of damage with it (kill his expansions and a few buildings), then just expand into third and play super greedy with tech/economy, but like I said it is an all in. :D
isint it enough that 90% if all protosses allin on ladder? u have to teach the other 10 aswell....? For god sake protosses! Instead of doing shitty allins each game over and over you should atleast try too macro-.-
Even in the professional leagues, consider how many Protoss players go for 4 base, 5 base, or even 6 base play. And when they do, what do they do? All-in! We can all agree that Protoss harassment units are just pathetic. What do we have? A warp prism that can carry up to 4 units, all of which have the most horrendously slow DPS and speed in the game. SCVs, Drones, and Probes can run rings around zealots while ranged units take them out. Stalkers are just sad. Compare this to a Medivac drop where stimmed marines just rip through 20 probes in less than 10 seconds. Compare this to baneling/zergling runbys which can also clear mineral fields fairly quickly. You can argue that Protoss have High Templars, but they are both incredibly slow and cost-inefficient to be harassing with.
To me, it just seems that Protoss play style doesn't suit me when it comes to the macro game. All it really comes down to is turtling and the 200/200 deathball push, which isn't exactly everyone's cup of tea. I'd rather end a game in under 10 minutes than waste my time on a mostly sit-and-defend macro game where Protoss are forced to repel a plethora of harassment units.
I'm being completely biased and I'm most definitely not going to start some sort of balance argument because when it comes down to it, I don't really care. Please also consider that all-ins are not always blind... they are meant to punish greedy or vulnerable builds. If you don't have enough of a brain to try and exploit what the opponent is doing, and instead go herpyderping and macro, then sure. By all means, go for it. You can call me a baddy, but at least I'm having fun.
On September 01 2012 17:00 Vralaren wrote: isint it enough that 90% if all protosses allin on ladder? u have to teach the other 10 aswell....? For god sake protosses! Instead of doing shitty allins each game over and over you should atleast try too macro-.-
User was warned for this post
really? its part of the game
OP, maybe add a section with tips on defensing these pushes? like for example a lot of high master and GM terran i watch stream will use sensor towers to see the location of blink stalkers after the the retreating blink with their scv pull
Hmm... well I'm not really in a position to give defending tips, I'm not on the other side of the battle, or a Terran player haha. All I can say is that if they do throw up a sensor tower, they invested 125 minerals in an Engineering Bay on top of the likelihood of +1 upgrades, so if you think about it, that's a fair sum of resources poured into things other than an army... which means all the more chances this rush will work.
On September 01 2012 17:00 Vralaren wrote: isint it enough that 90% if all protosses allin on ladder? u have to teach the other 10 aswell....? For god sake protosses! Instead of doing shitty allins each game over and over you should atleast try too macro-.-
User was warned for this post
really? its part of the game
OP, maybe add a section with tips on defensing these pushes? like for example a lot of high master and GM terran i watch stream will use sensor towers to see the location of blink stalkers after the the retreating blink with their scv pull
Hi, I made a video using your ninja 4 gate build, it worked pretty well!
I've been practicing it a lot, and I'm wondering if it's worth it to put the gate + core on the low ground. So many people aren't used to seeing that, so I'm thinking it might not be worth it to do it. Just wanted to hear your thoughts, thanks.
I agree with you that many people aren't used to seeing buildings on the low ground for a Protoss player, and that is all the more reason why your opponent will be psyched out. There is no actual strategic purpose for doing so, since all Terran units are ranged.
However, in the heat of battle your opponent probably won't realize the complete uselessness of putting the Gate and Core at the natural. He automatically assumes "defensive" from the structure positioning, and thus you give him a false sense of security. One can also argue that by putting the buildings on the low ground, you are able delay a timing attack from him, using forcefields to fill up the holes of your wall.
I am a Terran player and I want to comment on your 4-gate. If I see that you put your gateway in that position my reaction will be instant bunker and be prepared to hold off at least some early pressure or some kind of all in.
Most of the time, a gateway that close to the ramp means that you will run a zealot to my natural and harass me a bit. I would have been really fooled if you would have gone for something like 1 Gate FE and when my worker leaves your base (after seeing your expo) you cancel your expo and the 4-gate me.
It's really a shame about the terrible music you have put on the videos - I turned them straight off because of it. I think just no music and game sound would suit instructional videos like this better, if you plan to make any more in future
Muting is completely fine, I just put music on the videos to make it more enjoyable to those who appreciate the same genres as me. If not, that is understandable.
On October 08 2012 20:37 Kvassten wrote: I am a Terran player and I want to comment on your 4-gate. If I see that you put your gateway in that position my reaction will be instant bunker and be prepared to hold off at least some early pressure or some kind of all in.
Most of the time, a gateway that close to the ramp means that you will run a zealot to my natural and harass me a bit. I would have been really fooled if you would have gone for something like 1 Gate FE and when my worker leaves your base (after seeing your expo) you cancel your expo and the 4-gate me.
I see, that is another way to look at it. However, as you can see from the video, as well as other people who attempted the build, it does work on masters players. The typical assumption is that it is a 1 gate expand, as the gates are put in a defensive position. The forward placement can also elude a 1 gate pressure, but that is highly uncommon at the masters level since any decent Terran can deflect it easily. Also, 1 bunker out of precaution will just slow your economy and production, and it is not enough to hold off the attack. 2-3 bunkers is enough.
I just want to stop in and say I love this thread. Protoss all-ins are the most fun way to play in my opinion. I would love to see some vs. Zerg content that doesn't involve 3 bases.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SMcQJ.png)
