EPT[L][D] Terran Mech: Resources - Page 13
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On August 12 2012 16:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Depends on your build. Can you specify? There are a lot of different times to build armories and sometimes you may want double armory. If you go hellion expand into cloak banshee, i start my armory at ~7:45 so that it's up in time for muta and upgrade defense first. I build the 2nd one whenever I feel like it, I guess you should try to time it to finish when either +1 defense or +1 attack is done (+1 defense then +1 attack with first armory). you do +1 defense first? why? I've been doing this 1 rax expand, w/ double gas + 3rd CC, and it's worked out pretty well but i'm not too sure how to defend aggression or unit comp that i should be going for i've been getting 3-4 thors out first, before even starting tanks, and i'm not sure that's the proper way? | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On August 12 2012 16:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Depends on your build. Can you specify? There are a lot of different times to build armories and sometimes you may want double armory. If you go hellion expand into cloak banshee, i start my armory at ~7:45 so that it's up in time for muta and upgrade defense first. I build the 2nd one whenever I feel like it, I guess you should try to time it to finish when either +1 defense or +1 attack is done (+1 defense then +1 attack with first armory). I normally open 1-rax FE into 4 rax pressure when he takes his 3rd. While building up my marine count for the push I take 3 gasses and build 4 factories (3 with techlab, 1 with reactor). I produce mostly tanks in the beginning since my marines (which I never upgrade) makes it possible to delays thors for a while. I then push out and take my 3rd shortly followed by my 4th while going into Thor/Hellion production. The combo I am trying to go for in late game is Thor/Hellion/Raven with SM. Problem is that it is very risky to try to prioritize Ravens in early late game since they do little against Ultras at that point in time and you often do not have enough Ravens yet to combat BroodLords. Which I why I try to go for 2/2 Mech before Ravens since Thors with an upgrade advantage beat the typically 1/0 upgraded BroodLords, provided you have enough Thors. But the problem is that I cannot get enough gas for my upgrades in time since I need to get tanks initially to secure my 3rd and then build up my Thor count so that I can hold early late game attacks. | ||
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
On August 12 2012 14:21 Nightmarjoo wrote: Well, he did, before he quit sc. AFAIK he is just taking a break because of Pressure/money. | ||
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Crowned
United States368 Posts
On August 12 2012 16:26 MockHamill wrote: When going mech in TvZ when do you start your mech upgrades? It takes so much gas just to set up factories and making units that I constantly find myself behind on upgrades. I like 3 OC openings into double armory before your 2nd and 3rd factory in TvZ. You get your upgrades started pretty early and as long as you keep up with them you will have 3/3 done fairly quickly and be able to start your air upgrades. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On August 12 2012 17:23 Chaggi wrote: you do +1 defense first? why? I've been doing this 1 rax expand, w/ double gas + 3rd CC, and it's worked out pretty well but i'm not too sure how to defend aggression or unit comp that i should be going for i've been getting 3-4 thors out first, before even starting tanks, and i'm not sure that's the proper way? I don't think there is a flat out best option, attack or defense. It's up to you, but of course it would effect the way you play. I like defense because the way I open is I go hellion banshee, and get a max of 4 thors. If I see he's getting mutas I just get 4 thors and if he gets early, i automatically win by pushing. If he gets later mutas (and makes enough roaches for defense), then I can still max out at 200/200 quickly and push while taking my fourth, with optional tanks (not sure if better or not -- i guess it depends how roach heavy he is -- one style would be to go lower on the thor count but just build a few turrets with your push, i think that's really sexy). If during my hellion banshee harass I am not able to find out what he's doing, i get up to 4 thors anyways until I know what tech he is going (muta or infestor). If he goes infestor, I don't need thors, I can skip right to tanks. You can then upgrade attack instead of defense. If he goes mutas though, you will have thors. Attack does not help because hellion or thor do not really gain an advantage on roaches, thors still 2 shot roaches, thors still 1 shot zerglings, and hellions still 2 shot zerglings. Attack and defense both work about equally well for thors vs mutas. So I pick defense first. I have a stronger midgame. But yes, because of this, my attack upgrade will be lower later on when I do have tanks. This is a downside I guess. On August 12 2012 17:26 MockHamill wrote: I normally open 1-rax FE into 4 rax pressure when he takes his 3rd. While building up my marine count for the push I take 3 gasses and build 4 factories (3 with techlab, 1 with reactor). I produce mostly tanks in the beginning since my marines (which I never upgrade) makes it possible to delays thors for a while. I then push out and take my 3rd shortly followed by my 4th while going into Thor/Hellion production. The combo I am trying to go for in late game is Thor/Hellion/Raven with SM. Problem is that it is very risky to try to prioritize Ravens in early late game since they do little against Ultras at that point in time and you often do not have enough Ravens yet to combat BroodLords. Which I why I try to go for 2/2 Mech before Ravens since Thors with an upgrade advantage beat the typically 1/0 upgraded BroodLords, provided you have enough Thors. But the problem is that I cannot get enough gas for my upgrades in time since I need to get tanks initially to secure my 3rd and then build up my Thor count so that I can hold early late game attacks. Hm sorry but I can't really give you advice on that then. I'm unfamiliar with that kind of build. I would think though, that you would want double armories because your mech is delayed unless you can make an early armory while you're still on marines? Idk. I haven't played around specifically to try to survive with thor hellion raven, but vikings and banshees and tanks make it so much easier, so i would advise against it. I don't see how you would deal with infestors NP'ing your entire army, or what would happen if he goes pure mass roach. You don't have tank splash to deal with roach/infestor and even though you have SM, a good zerg should be able to fungal/NP those ravens before they get into 6 range. Even against roaches, yes SM is powerful but as a 200 gas unit that takes a long time to gain enough energy... not to mention the upgrades you need for the Raven, it doesn't seem nearly as efficient as simply getting 1 tank and 1 viking for each raven you have (vikings for BL/corruptor/vision). It's the same amount of gas. Yes, it takes much more minerals of course, but minerals are not a limiting factor in TvZ mech. If a tank shoots twice, that pretty much already does about the same as 1 SM, and usually they fire several times in a battle. To make that style work it seems like you would have to harass a lot to prevent zerg from just attacking you, but roaches are really good against both auto turrets and hellions. But if it's working for you, please let me know how :D | ||
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ConstantSc
Australia33 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12041 Posts
On August 13 2012 07:54 ConstantSc wrote: Any of you higher mech players been testing the waters with Medivac Mech drops? if so.. Any success? I'm not a higher mech player but I've been trying some 2 tank 4 hellion drops in TvP like the vulture/tank drops from Brood War and they seem to be alright if it's a decent enough position and I can siege up. The hellions can funnel the zealots in the protoss sim city and also the tanks shoot down the stalkers. It's just a shame there's no spidermine :/ | ||
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ConstantSc
Australia33 Posts
On August 13 2012 07:57 Qikz wrote: I'm not a higher mech player but I've been trying some 2 tank 4 hellion drops in TvP like the vulture/tank drops from Brood War and they seem to be alright if it's a decent enough position and I can siege up. The hellions can funnel the zealots in the protoss sim city and also the tanks shoot down the stalkers. It's just a shame there's no spidermine :/ Ye that would have been the cream on top but I've been dropping thirds and fourths while a small drop takes attention in the main to some success.. Just trying to get more mobile without sinking gas into banshees | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12041 Posts
On August 13 2012 08:41 ConstantSc wrote: Ye that would have been the cream on top but I've been dropping thirds and fourths while a small drop takes attention in the main to some success.. Just trying to get more mobile without sinking gas into banshees One other reason I think dropping in Mech TvP can work is usually they won't prepare for drops if they see mech since who the hell (first of all plays mech TvP) and secondly who the heck drops with it. :p Tommorow if I get a game going on Ohana against a Protoss I really want to just try and doom drop his main. I'd like to see him attack up his small ramp into my army. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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ConstantSc
Australia33 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On August 13 2012 10:08 Qikz wrote: One other reason I think dropping in Mech TvP can work is usually they won't prepare for drops if they see mech since who the hell (first of all plays mech TvP) and secondly who the heck drops with it. :p Tommorow if I get a game going on Ohana against a Protoss I really want to just try and doom drop his main. I'd like to see him attack up his small ramp into my army. Also you would need a lot of medivacs haha, even if you don't drop your whole army you would still need maybe 10 medivacs to transfer 5 tanks 2 hellions 5 thors, you could use that 1000/1000 for 2-3 more BCs for your army ^^. Hellion drops can work well though especially if they're not putting up canons or leaving units at home. I've noticed that against templar tech opening, mech players still get a starport but instead of getting vikings, they just make medivacs and drop hellions. I guess it's more effective since they don't have colossi for splash -- even if they leave 4 stalkers in each mineral line, you can still kill lots of probes with 4 BFH unless they have canons. They have archons but those are only 3 range and using storm would be costly, not to mention the hellions can just run outside of it. Also I guess a protoss who opens templar tech has a slightly more immobile army because of HTs instead of colossi. Another thing is that HTs are more gas heavy, so perhaps they'll have less sentries to FF. These are the only reasons I can think of as to why they drop [more often] vs templar. Maybe another reason is because they want that starport to be up early just in case rather than late, so they don't want to waste it by not producing anything? Regarding drops though... I have tried doing 1-2 thor drops against protoss if they're expanding fast, or to try to snipe 1-2 forges, or to harass when he's maxed out. Canons are pretty ineffective against thors, and you would need ~10 gateway to deal with it. Compared to 2 MM drops, yeah it is a little more costly, and they don't need as many warp ins to deal with it if you micro well, but if you have 2 thors, you can drop immediately, instead of waiting for them to come out then stimming. You can unload them much faster and so if you want to snipe something, it is pretty quick. If they have pylons around the perimeter and you're dropping, then they'll see the under attack alert. It is really easy to snipe tech buildings with 2 thor drops because by the time he reacts and the units finish warping in, the tech building will already basically be dead, with the 2 thors hitting for a total of ~150 dmg with upgrades. A forge only has 400/400 hp/shield. Another advantage the thor drops have to MM drops is, since you're only dropping 1 unit per medivac and don't need to worry about stimming, it is easy to fly around their base and snipe their zealot/stalkers lying around. Against MM drops they can just leave them where they were after the drop is fended off, and the chargelots can charge in when the MM drop 1 by 1, but with double thor you can just keep picking off gateway units. He would need to then keep his units more clumped, which allows you more space to drop to snipe pylons or such. Of course if he's watching the minimap the drop should be defended with ease, but the same can be said with MM drops. Furthermore, sometimes they're not paying attention because, well, who would expect mech players to drop, and I can actually snipe a nexus (especially if they are trying to take advantage of you by taking a lot more expansions, like expanding 2 times at once, or I saw them warp in a wave of units already and know that i have a huge window to kill that nexus). For better players I guess this will be less effective, but it is still something you can consider if you want to take advantage of your opponent playing suboptimally. | ||
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Crowned
United States368 Posts
On August 13 2012 13:12 Nightmarjoo wrote: I guess I can start hanging out in channel "mech" on NA. Sounds good. | ||
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ConstantSc
Australia33 Posts
 by myself  | ||
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intense555
United States474 Posts
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ConstantSc
Australia33 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On August 13 2012 18:27 ConstantSc wrote: I just got Wrecked by Blink stalker off 2 bases as mech.. slow unseiging and slow thors.. got raped.. What can I do to defend my main and naturals from blink stalkers? other than the obvious bunkers with marines.. Make sure you have your tanks sieged up on time. Sounds obvious but it's really important. If you lose an early tank, he can easily snowball his numbers and keep sniping tanks/thors without losing enough stalkers. It hurts less to pull SCVs to help defend than if you're playing with bio since minerals aren't a limiting factor, and it should be easy to fill up 4 gas (only 12 SCVs lol), so don't be afraid to pull your SCVs many many times. Takes forever for stalkers to kill them anyways. It can take some practice/experience to know when to pull them and if you are losing too many or not though. What I do is position my tanks so that they're a little spread out (esp maps with big mains like shak) so that you can cover wherever you blink in, but so that if they want to kill a tank, they get shot by the other tanks. This way they also can't just blink onto a clump of tanks before your SCVs get there to tank/attack/repair. Another benefit is that he may not know exactly how many tanks you have. If you keep only 1 bunker at your natural, make sure you have a few SCVs sitting there ready to repair. If he snipes that with his blink stalkers, it will be very hard to get up a new bunker because he'll just keep poking back in. You want to try not to use so many bunkers, but you also don't want to keep so many tanks at your natural since you want to cover your main. (This is at least for maps where they have a ramp at the natural, and if they want to enter your nat either by blinking or walking in they'll have to run through the bunker(s), which is almost all maps these days) Position your buildings smartly. On some maps like Ohana and Daybreak, you should have no problem with blink stalkers because there are so few ways they can blink into your nat/main. You can put the buildings in a line (depots connecting them if you wish to walk through) and put tanks behind it, that way the stalkers blinking in will have to walk around the wall to get to the tanks. This gives you time to pull SCVs and whatnot and to kill some stalkers to prevent him from snowballing too hard, if at all. On maps like Daybreak, you can position buildings very easily to shut down blink stalkers. Aside from the natural which would have the bunker(s) and some of your army there, the only place you need to worry about is that small area right next to your main ramp where they can blink up. Position your buildings a few spaces away from the ledge -- this way, if the stalkers blink in, they can't blink past the buildings. Make this wall connect to the edge of the main (put depots so you can go through), and put 1-2 tanks a few spaces behind that. This way, whenever he wants to blink stalkers into your main, he will get shot ~3 times before he can blink again. Getting shot 3 times by 2 tanks will lose him a few stalkers. This 10 seconds also gives you much more time for your production cycle to finish so you get some units to help out. If it's early game this should be no problem to defend. If it's late game and you guys are on multiple bases and (this isn't really a problem on daybreak, but for maps where blinking is better) you think he will or he has been constantly blink harassing in a certain location(s), then set up a wall/tanks there, you could even leave 1 ghost there so he can send off 1-2 EMPs, this will make him lose ~10 stalkers before he can blink again. Usually though lategame, if you're playing tank hellion you want to find ways to force him to not be able to harass you for free (siege his base up, etc) and if you're playing a thor/banshee kind of style then you are usually more defensive and should have your army ready to defend anyways. | ||
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