EPT[L][D] Terran Mech: Resources - Page 12
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MetalGear
Australia47 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On August 10 2012 14:00 ConstantSc wrote: Is the reactor helion banshee your tvz opener? After cc first or 1rax cc, yes, that's my standard. On August 10 2012 15:05 dynwar7 wrote: 1. Night, In tvt mech, in your guide, why did you say mech is not immobile? You mentioned that this fact is a myth since mech can use hellions and banshees? 2. About mech in tvt again, lets say in cloud kingdom, theres lots of sieged tanks in the middle of the map. No bio army will ever want to come close to that. But then again, what about the other attack paths? Lets say oyu are a mech player in cloud kingdom, spawning in the north. as you take your 3th and 4th bases, they are far from each other, so if you are sieged in the middle, what defense will you have in 3rd and 4th base? A few sieged tanks may be good, but I heard/read that mech in small numbers are not strong? If that is the case, then the bio can simply outmaneuver you by going left, right , left right? Even sensor tower won't nullify this since all it does is tell you where the enemies are. So you basically have to keep moving the army to left right left right to match the bio movement? OR leave 2-3 tanks in your 3rd 4th bases? But then again, like I said above, tanks are not good in small numbers are they? EDIT: Night, perhaps you have got some replays that explain the situation above? Where the bio attacks your left base, then right base, etc. What would you do? In addition to this, I would love to see you play with banshees aggressively, to remove the myth of mech immobility  It is mobile. Hellions and Banshees are an example of very mobile units that are a staple to mech. The only immobile part of mech are sieged tanks, but only a small percent of your tanks need to be sieged at any given moment. Early on you may need to sit and defend, but that's no different than bio in many scenarios. I'll have 1 tank in my main behind a turret ring sieged. 2 tanks behind the wall covering my nat ramp. The rest of my army will be in my 4th, which also defends my 3rd. A sensor tower in nat and 4th and a hellion on the tower give me vision of everything. As I see enemy movement I'll scout around with scans or hellions to figure out how much I need to send where. The mech army is fluid, it moves around to meet what it defends. When I max I leave behind a few tanks at every spot to defend counters. I don't need to leave behind enough to completely crush an entire bio army, just enough to make it not worth his while to attack there. I can lose the fight at one of these spots and be fine as reinforcements arrive. The idea is just to not let him have free reign killing my infrastructure. On a map like cloud my 4th will be a pf. On daybreak it'll probably be an oc, but my 5th will be a pf. Tanks are fine in small numbers when positioned well. Use your buildings to protect them as well. If your raven is approaching max energy and you aren't going to be using it for a while feel free to drop a pdd at some defensive position, maybe it'll help defend a counter from marauders. On August 10 2012 15:14 MetalGear wrote: @Nightmarjoo when you do the hellion marauder push if toss decides to stay on 1 base how do you usually follow up at your base like bunkers a starport or do you put your CC down first? Juust wondering if you think its better to put down your CC first and then concentrate on bunkers ect or to make sure your safe first. So if protoss cancels their expansion the moment I arrive or when they scout my attack etc, I'll set up a contain in front of their ramp with 2 bunkers. I'll fill them and then keep my marine rally at home. Assuming my contain doesn't get broken too early I'm going to expand, add a bunker, get 2nd gas, armory, and get a thor out, followed by port and raven. If when trying to set up a contain I just get smashed because it turns out they weren't going 1gate nexus I'll bunker before cc, and possibly even add 1-2 rax to be safe. Usually this isn't an issue though, because most protoss prefer not to leave their base knowing I have hellions on the field. I'm ok with making bunker before cc in general if I feel unsafe otherwise. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
So far I have never been able to beat this combo in early late game since tanks cannot be sieged up when broodlords attack. Late late game you have mass ravens to complement the Thor/hellion combo which makes it easier, but what can you do early late game against BroodLord/Roach/Infestor? | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 10 2012 19:20 MockHamill wrote: When going mech what is the best early late game unit combo for Terran when going up against BroodLord/Roach/Infestor. So far I have never been able to beat this combo in early late game since tanks cannot be sieged up when broodlords attack. Late late game you have mass ravens to complement the Thor/hellion combo which makes it easier, but what can you do early late game against BroodLord/Roach/Infestor? Personally, ok I'm only in high platinum but my army composition is a lot of tanks, hellions to deal with broodlings a few thors for the corrupters and a healthy amount of vikings with a few ravens. By that point you should have a lot of orbitals so you can sack SCVs or use them to add turrets to help vs corrupters. If it's only early late game you should still have a healthy amount of tanks/hellions and you can leave your tanks sieged up against broodlords with hellion support so the roaches are not a problem. | ||
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Tyrseng
United States34 Posts
Both of these players, when committing to mech, open up with 3 to 4 rax and make a lot of marines. Now, by no means am I any good at this game and I do not claim to be able to read these players minds as they operate on a much higher level than myself, but from what I can tell this serves 3 purposes: 1) The Zerg player feels more inclined to go banelings, as all he sees for the most part is a barracks wallin and a lot of pure marines. This is a favorable response as a) banelings aren't really good against mech as long as you don't let them hit your hellions and you don't clump your thors, and b) the most common unit to complete these banelings will be mutas, which will absolutely get shredded by a thor-heavy compositon 2) This allows you to delay thor production in favor of hellions, as you'll have marines to defend against mutas. 3) This also allows you to maintain map presence - with a lot of marines on the map, the Zerg will feel less inclined to mass expand which is the most common response to mech Behind these three to four rax, both of these Terrans will get three factories, an armory, and a third CC. One factory will have a tech lab for blue flame, but it will only produce hellions. ForGG favors getting reactors on the other two factories immediately, while Supernova prefers to leave them naked (another stylistical thing that ForGG does is he gets combat shields for his marines, even though he's meching). After a good amount of hellion production (it varies a lot, depending on how much the Zerg has scouted/what his response was to the initial pokes), both Terrans will start producing Thors. In ForGG's case, he will take the tech labs on his rax and put the factories on them and have the rax on the reactors, while Supernova just throws down tech labs on his two naked factories. Behind this, both players add two more factories and another armory while saturating their third and taking a fourth depending on the situation of the game. I'm not sure about how these players decide when to start tank production. My access to replays/vods of these games is limited, due to the fact that the times I've seen these builds have been on stream (ForGG's personal stream in his case, and as for Supernova it's usually been in smaller tournaments, like the IEM VI qualifiers and the MSI Pro Cups although I believe he meched vs Nestea in the GSL although I might be mistaken). I do have one replay of each player (ForGG vs Moon from ASUS ROG and Supernova vs Symbol from MSI Pro Cup 12) but that's not enough to accurately infer when and why they start to make tanks. I'd say a good rule of thumb is to start tanks after you know they've scouted your mech and they start pumping roaches, although thor heavy compositions are really what you're aiming for in the endgame. I also want to note that ForGG is really not fond of mech as far as I can tell. When he uses it, most of the time he goes 1 armory/1 engie bay and goes for double attack upgrades and goes for some sort of biomech hybrid which really works well for him, but you can't really consider it mech due to that fact. However, it could easily be mech with more factories and a second armory instead of engie bay - the opening is the same, and the thought process is similar to Supernova's in any case. This style of mech is also used by MKP when he mechs vs Z - I don't know if any of you recall the MLG where Apollo predicted that MKP would mech after he threw down 4 rax, but it was a very similar style. I've also seen Bomber use this sort of opening - unfortunately, he stopped uploading his stream vods otherwise I'd post the link here. Anyway, those were just my thoughts - I've been noticing most of the people here and most of the replays/vods shown here use a sort of hellion/banshee opener into mech or some sort of 1rax FE -> fast siege + 3CC build and I figured I'd give me take on how the Koreans handle TvZ mech. | ||
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Crowned
United States368 Posts
On August 10 2012 13:58 Nightmarjoo wrote: Most if not all of those are 1.4.3 though. In a few days I'll release more reps from just 1.5. I look forward to this. | ||
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Crowned
United States368 Posts
What are some good guidelines to follow for as far as saccing scvs lategame. Such as "after you have x number of OCs you can start to get rid of x number of scvs and then you can sac x number of scvs for every OC you add after that." Any general strategy you guys follow when it comes to this? | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
TvZ + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hQj82.jpg) Basically the main issue I have with this map, is I feel if I sit at my "natural" fourth I find myself incredibly blocked in and unable to ever push forward and expand again due to broodlords or ultras keeping me somewhat pinned back. If I leave a relatively large (maybe 8-9 tanks) at my third it should be able to hold them off to get my units back into position, but I find if I take the natural fourth I have real trouble stopping runby's or ever putting any pressure on. I understand this isn't really important as mech and I use a lot of hellion runbys to kill as many drones as I can to force him to remake them, On the map though I just find it really difficult to take the fifth I would normally want to take (across from the natural fourth) as I find it really hard to get that highground in between them both secure without getting either pushed back by Broodlords as I take my fourth pretty slowly and if I try and defend up there too fast I find myself dealing with huge problems at my natural ramp as it's so far away. Would taking the zergs natural fifth and pushing onto his fourth slowly be a better choice for me? My style involves a hell of a lot of tanks, turrets if needs be, hellions and vikings with a few thors for support and extra splash against corrupters. Secondly in TvP I have massive massive issues in ever taking a fourth and keeping it mining then moving onto my fifth. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ro9pM.jpg) *2 is one of my main concerns as zealot runbys cause me a hell of a lot of damage, but if I build the wall there I open myself to the problem at *3 which is that highground above the minerals. I really have no idea how I'm supposed to defend that highground as mech while also defending the lowground as if they go collosus they just hurass my mineral line and stop me mining. Causing me to either scan to get vision or put my banshees up higher than I'd want them at that point as they're in a lot of danger. Is there any advice you could give me to help me deal with that highground area? Should I maybe try and push towards that highground between my fourth and future fifth much sooner? Then again that opens me to the problem of busts at my walled natural ramp. *4 is just the area I think I need to be defending quicker to stop the hurassment, but I'm unsure how to get there relatively quickly against an aggressive toss. Sorry if I wrote a lot and none of it makes sense, I'm quite tired and felt like asking something with as much detail as I can (hence the maps). I don't really have the same problems on any other map as I find it relatively easy to push towards places while expanding, while still managing to defend my other bases. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10328 Posts
On August 10 2012 19:37 Tyrseng wrote: Recently I've been seeing a few Korean Terrans experiment with TvZ mech - the two Terrans that I've been following closely are ForGG and Supernova. Both of these players, when committing to mech, open up with 3 to 4 rax and make a lot of marines. Now, by no means am I any good at this game and I do not claim to be able to read these players minds as they operate on a much higher level than myself, but from what I can tell this serves 3 purposes: 1) The Zerg player feels more inclined to go banelings, as all he sees for the most part is a barracks wallin and a lot of pure marines. This is a favorable response as a) banelings aren't really good against mech as long as you don't let them hit your hellions and you don't clump your thors, and b) the most common unit to complete these banelings will be mutas, which will absolutely get shredded by a thor-heavy compositon 2) This allows you to delay thor production in favor of hellions, as you'll have marines to defend against mutas. 3) This also allows you to maintain map presence - with a lot of marines on the map, the Zerg will feel less inclined to mass expand which is the most common response to mech Behind these three to four rax, both of these Terrans will get three factories, an armory, and a third CC. One factory will have a tech lab for blue flame, but it will only produce hellions. ForGG favors getting reactors on the other two factories immediately, while Supernova prefers to leave them naked (another stylistical thing that ForGG does is he gets combat shields for his marines, even though he's meching). After a good amount of hellion production (it varies a lot, depending on how much the Zerg has scouted/what his response was to the initial pokes), both Terrans will start producing Thors. In ForGG's case, he will take the tech labs on his rax and put the factories on them and have the rax on the reactors, while Supernova just throws down tech labs on his two naked factories. Behind this, both players add two more factories and another armory while saturating their third and taking a fourth depending on the situation of the game. I'm not sure about how these players decide when to start tank production. My access to replays/vods of these games is limited, due to the fact that the times I've seen these builds have been on stream (ForGG's personal stream in his case, and as for Supernova it's usually been in smaller tournaments, like the IEM VI qualifiers and the MSI Pro Cups although I believe he meched vs Nestea in the GSL although I might be mistaken). I do have one replay of each player (ForGG vs Moon from ASUS ROG and Supernova vs Symbol from MSI Pro Cup 12) but that's not enough to accurately infer when and why they start to make tanks. I'd say a good rule of thumb is to start tanks after you know they've scouted your mech and they start pumping roaches, although thor heavy compositions are really what you're aiming for in the endgame. I also want to note that ForGG is really not fond of mech as far as I can tell. When he uses it, most of the time he goes 1 armory/1 engie bay and goes for double attack upgrades and goes for some sort of biomech hybrid which really works well for him, but you can't really consider it mech due to that fact. However, it could easily be mech with more factories and a second armory instead of engie bay - the opening is the same, and the thought process is similar to Supernova's in any case. This style of mech is also used by MKP when he mechs vs Z - I don't know if any of you recall the MLG where Apollo predicted that MKP would mech after he threw down 4 rax, but it was a very similar style. I've also seen Bomber use this sort of opening - unfortunately, he stopped uploading his stream vods otherwise I'd post the link here. Anyway, those were just my thoughts - I've been noticing most of the people here and most of the replays/vods shown here use a sort of hellion/banshee opener into mech or some sort of 1rax FE -> fast siege + 3CC build and I figured I'd give me take on how the Koreans handle TvZ mech. Thanks a bunch for these observations, it is really useful! I remember that game, and I was thinking to myself "He's putting more rax down, and you think he's going mech? trololol" xD I'm assuming it may be indeed true (many say it but it may not true, just as people said mech doesn't work in TvT back then, but then most terrans started meching, etc.) that mech is weak/unviable if they just pressure you with lots of roaches early (though I'm not sure exactly how hellion/banshee fares against that if the zerg plays correctly), if forGG, who has played mech a lot in TvZ not too long ago on his stream, is doing this new bio into mech kind of style. Now that I think of it, I guess it does make a bit of sense, that they can start similar to bio but then add mech (hellions) for a marine/hellion composition which has shown to work before, before getting more and more mech, so that they survive to the midgame. Even though you made a few rax in the beginning and may not use them later on, it's not exactly a waste because you have so many minerals with mech anyways. Those rax can also be used to wall off or push or scout. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On August 10 2012 21:02 Crowned wrote: Also got a question for you top level meching guys. What are some good guidelines to follow for as far as saccing scvs lategame. Such as "after you have x number of OCs you can start to get rid of x number of scvs and then you can sac x number of scvs for every OC you add after that." Any general strategy you guys follow when it comes to this? I like staying on 70 scvs as long as possible for maximum oc count. I tend to sack them only when I feel I have to for the sake of adjusting my composition rather than relative to some OC count. 13 OCs is a good number to strive for. Don't mine out your main/nat/3rd until you have to later on in the game. LastShadow's rule for tvz was to sack 6 at a time to afford another thor. Qikz I didn't read your post in its entirety, but yes protoss kingdom can be tough. I do however always take the expos in the natural order. The biggest worry is double attacks at the nat and 4th simultaneously, but a well-timed pf on the nat ramp behind a depot wall should make it possible to split your army sufficiently to defend both fronts. I'd say that if you're worried protoss may do that (e.g. you see high stalker count for blink harass, or high early gateway count for aggression) you can start the pf cc right after you start your 4th expo cc at the earliest. Since it is hard to attack his expos, make sure to get nukes out when conventional harass methods fail. The thing you have going for you is that in a long game it's easier for you to take the expo near his nat and the one near you than it is for him to take either. So you can starve out and outmoney them just by staying alive long enough. I've never put any pfs on the center highground, but that might be smart for pushing, defense, and securing expos. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10328 Posts
On August 12 2012 02:11 Qikz wrote: Thanks for the advice Nightmare, I didn't think about putting a PF near my natural ramp since I didn't think it'd fit, but if I have that I can probably leave some tanks with it too to stop anything getting in for atleast long enough for my army to get back. Nukes is a cool idea too, I never thought of really using them as I keep forgetting to get ghosts (which as I just found out, is devestating when loads of immortals come into play T_T) Another thing you could do is put 1-2 OCs there instead of PFs, and have ~2 tanks there, (like if you are on 3 or 4 base and floating lots of minerals), then later on if you need to take your 4th/5th then you can replace the OCs with PFs since you're more spread out. | ||
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
Twitch.tv/imls | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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Crowned
United States368 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
http://drop.sc/packs/1286 Personally I don't think these are very good, but maybe you guys will disagree. I renamed two replays that were intense to play, and I guess I'd recommend them. I haven't watched them myself so maybe they actually suck. Both were from a single clanwar. They're the reps that start with "tvt" and "tvp" respectively. Some of the tvzs are bansheeless (at least in the opening). I absolutely do not recommend playing that way unless you have no choice. I find it incredibly difficult personally, but practiced it because sometimes you have no choice but to play that way. | ||
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Crowned
United States368 Posts
Also when meching TvZ should you ALWAYS push if you scan the hive morphing? | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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