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We both had a fairly passive build at first. No early aggression or 4 gate or anything like that. Our builds were fairly similar. Several gateways, robo, twilight counsel, expo, forge. He hit me with some warp prism aggresion in my main. I eventually cleaned it up, but my stalker micro could have been much better. I lost more than I should have.
After things stabilized, he took out my thrid when I was putting it up (which is what I was getting ready to go try to do to him). I didn't cancel. Wish I had. We had several back and forths, trading bases, with him having the edge in terms of bases most of the time. I went colossi and my army was doing well against him, but he was secretly building up a carrier count. He didn't use them on me right away. I'm not sure if that was him keeping his cards close to his chest, or if that was him being afraid of losing them early.
We ended up in a base trade scenario twice, but he eventually came out on top. The mass number of carriers were just too much for me to handle. I had no stargates to mass void ray to counter and I didn't think I could get that infrastructure in time to matter. Although, maybe a few would have been good with the stalkers? That was my only defense agaisnt them: stalkers.
To make a long story short, he won. I trashed his bases pretty bad, but my army was gone and he still had carriers leftover so I gg'd.
It's a long replay (35 minutes).
I appreciate in advance anybody who watches or offers advice.
http://drop.sc/224239
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United States4883 Posts
I apologize, I don't have time to watch the replay right now, but I thought I'd offer some advice based on a game I literally just played. I played against a guy who went balls to the wall void rays (like 30+ void rays and mothership). When I saw what he was doing, I literally just traded all my colossus and zealots for stalker/archon (You can, of course do trades by counterattacking or harassing with them).
The nice thing is that archon/stalker DO NOT clump up, so vortexes are not nearly as scary. With the stalker/archon composition, you should have a good amount of success, even against carriers. You might need a colossus or two to make sure he doesn't warp in like 50 zealots underneath his carriers, but overall, I feel fairly confident stalker/archon will do well against carriers. Even if you lose the battle, your units are cheaper and much faster to reproduce.
Anywayz, in the game I played, I just got a really good archon toilet and killed his entire army in 3 seconds LOL. Was the most rewarding feeling in the world.
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Ok watched the replay on x8. You did not lose to the carriers. Or technically you somehow did, but. Did you try to analyze the replay yourself before posting? Even though you lost 18 workers to that warp prism harrass, and was way behind, you had a ton of time to kill him off before he got a huge ball of carriers. Im sure you can spot the most obvious mistakes in your gameplay yourself, I dont really know what to say other then you should always keep track of his army composition. His army was rediculously small compared to yours when he started massing carriers.. Just go kill him 
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Hey, to make a long advice short: Dont let him mass carriers unscouted.
I bet u are on a silver-gold level at the highest and in that in mind you dont need specific advice to counter "mass stalkers" or " mass carriers". For an example, lf u did attacked him between 6-9 minutes when he had like......NOTHING, u would won.
You will not see a descent PvP match with zero units untill the 9.30.
1. Make units
2. Poke
3. Try or die
4. Wath replay
5. Search new game
Gl HF
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On July 20 2012 11:56 Marooned wrote:Ok watched the replay on x8. You did not lose to the carriers. Or technically you somehow did, but. Did you try to analyze the replay yourself before posting? Even though you lost 18 workers to that warp prism harrass, and was way behind, you had a ton of time to kill him off before he got a huge ball of carriers. Im sure you can spot the most obvious mistakes in your gameplay yourself, I dont really know what to say other then you should always keep track of his army composition. His army was rediculously small compared to yours when he started massing carriers.. Just go kill him
First, let me say that I watch the replays of every single game I play, sometimes more than once. I saw the same timing you did when I could have just strolled up and killed him, but I didn't know that at the time (obviously). Let's say that I was more aggressive with my observers but he had enough cannons to shut them out, then I still couldn't have seen them. Despite the fact that his army was smaller than I thought, he was still turtled up behind cannons as far as I knew and I didn't want to make an inefficient trade. I suppose I could have pulled back if he had had a larger army. I see your point. I shouldn't have given him time to build up those carriers without at least harassing him, and in the case of this game beating him.
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every three cannons that you see he has more than you, make a nexus
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Hey dude watched post. I'm a high diamond on US/ low masters in CN so idk how relevant my advice would be. I'm a bit harsh so sorry in advance, remember to always take advice with a grain of salt.
Personally I detest forge openings in PvP because they delay your tech(gateway tech in this case) by a lot. And I believe forge in pvp can only be used aggressively, not defensively because cannons are static.
At 2:40 you are actually 2 probes ahead of him which I thought was ridiculous considering its so early in the game.
Also, at 6 min into the game, you didn't scout if he took an expo or if he's one basing. Yet you still had only one cannon as defense? A 3 gate/ 3 gate robo / 4 gate / 4 gate blink would've all killed you by 8:00 (at which time you had 3 zealots and a stalker with no warpgate)
Another thing is scouting. Why haven't you checked for his expo? What if he went one base all in?
At 9 minutes, you had 3 zealots, 3 stalkers, 1 sentry. A sizable force to his... single warp prism. You didn't push because you didn't know he had nothing. Again, scouting is crucial.
At 10 minutes he dropped on you. Your reaction was decent, but you still lost a lot of probes. However he misrallied his immortal and you got that for free.
At 11 minutes he dropped again. Your reaction was better but your unit choice was poor. Stalkers, especially not microed, are horrible against zealots. You would've done alot better to just warp in the same amount of zealots as he did, becaues you had +1 and he didnt, you would've came out ahead with a few zealots remaining.
At 13 minutes, same thing. You kept using stalkers vs zealots, which is horrible. And while his harass is going on, you are barely making workers. From 10 minutes(when you had 36 workers) to now(you have 38 workers), in the span of 3 minutes you made 2 workers.
At 15 minutes your observer floats above his third, yet you don't scout anywhere else. What tech does he have? There's no point in watching his third for like 20 minutes.
At 16 minutes your second observer does well in spotting 3 stargates. Also you engage a ton of zealots , two immortals, and two stalkers. That should already tip you off. zealots = no gas. 2 immortals = 200 gas. 2 stalkers = 150 gas. So your opponent mined gas for 14 minutes(assuming he didn't mine any at the start of the game cz he cant), yet he only spent about 400 gas(easily mined in less than 3 minutes off one base)? Also you spot a fourth when the third just finished. And you have 8 gates ready to be turned into warpgates, and you had 1/1 while he has 0/0 this is the perfect time to crush him. You would've won the game if you pushed out right now with a forward pylon and 8 warpgates.
At 19 minutes your 2/1 army crushes his 0/0 army, and your second observer again spots a carrier. Please note that a 200/200 carrier army with good micro is almost unbeatable. I do this in 4v4 teamgames and i usually 1v4 or 1v3 the entire other team at the 20 min mark. So as soon as you see carriers, push and kill him! You abandoned another chance.
At 22 minutes you take two expos(bad) and you kill his fourth(good). But why didn't you attack and go forward!? Your observer tells you that his carriers aren't in a massive force, why not push? Yes he has 5-6 zealots at your fourth, just warp in a few things and kill him, there's no need to pull back your whole army to crush a few zealots!
At 25 minutes you crush his carrier force. If you didn't realize he had carriers by now, you should. First thing to do is research blink!!
The rest of the game is you being indecisive and scared of his measely carrier count until he finally builds up a large enough force of carriers and beats you.
TL; DR Carriers are good, but they take forever to get out and they take up a ton of resources(Stargate+ Fleet Beacon + Carrier + Interceptor). Before carriers reach a critical mass(7 or so) , just A move and kill him.
Hope this helps!
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I just thought I'd share my similar experience. I actually had this happen to me but in a slightly more scary form... My opponent and I (mid diamond NA) were each maxed on 3-base with colo/archon/gateway armies, and he (unbeknownst to me) started killing his own units one-by-one and swapping them out for carrier-void. He hid 6 stargates, and really capitalized on that stalemate window where neither of us could really break the other. I couldn't get a good count on his army size, since he'd kill my obs if it got too close, and I didn't scout the stargates out in the middle of nowhere until it was too late... I tried base trading / archon toiletting, and I managed to kill two expos, all of his stargates, and all of his voids, but I couldn't overpower the carriers, and he eventually choked me out with constant warp prism harrass. It seems like a fairly strong strategy.
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On July 20 2012 12:28 Shaoer wrote:
Hey dude watched post. I'm a high diamond on US/ low masters in CN so idk how relevant my advice would be. I'm a bit harsh so sorry in advance, remember to always take advice with a grain of salt.
Personally I detest forge openings in PvP because they delay your tech(gateway tech in this case) by a lot. And I believe forge in pvp can only be used aggressively, not defensively because cannons are static.
At 2:40 you are actually 2 probes ahead of him which I thought was ridiculous considering its so early in the game.
Also, at 6 min into the game, you didn't scout if he took an expo or if he's one basing. Yet you still had only one cannon as defense? A 3 gate/ 3 gate robo / 4 gate / 4 gate blink would've all killed you by 8:00 (at which time you had 3 zealots and a stalker with no warpgate)
Another thing is scouting. Why haven't you checked for his expo? What if he went one base all in?
At 9 minutes, you had 3 zealots, 3 stalkers, 1 sentry. A sizable force to his... single warp prism. You didn't push because you didn't know he had nothing. Again, scouting is crucial.
At 10 minutes he dropped on you. Your reaction was decent, but you still lost a lot of probes. However he misrallied his immortal and you got that for free.
At 11 minutes he dropped again. Your reaction was better but your unit choice was poor. Stalkers, especially not microed, are horrible against zealots. You would've done alot better to just warp in the same amount of zealots as he did, becaues you had +1 and he didnt, you would've came out ahead with a few zealots remaining.
At 13 minutes, same thing. You kept using stalkers vs zealots, which is horrible. And while his harass is going on, you are barely making workers. From 10 minutes(when you had 36 workers) to now(you have 38 workers), in the span of 3 minutes you made 2 workers.
At 15 minutes your observer floats above his third, yet you don't scout anywhere else. What tech does he have? There's no point in watching his third for like 20 minutes.
At 16 minutes your second observer does well in spotting 3 stargates. Also you engage a ton of zealots , two immortals, and two stalkers. That should already tip you off. zealots = no gas. 2 immortals = 200 gas. 2 stalkers = 150 gas. So your opponent mined gas for 14 minutes(assuming he didn't mine any at the start of the game cz he cant), yet he only spent about 400 gas(easily mined in less than 3 minutes off one base)? Also you spot a fourth when the third just finished. And you have 8 gates ready to be turned into warpgates, and you had 1/1 while he has 0/0 this is the perfect time to crush him. You would've won the game if you pushed out right now with a forward pylon and 8 warpgates.
At 19 minutes your 2/1 army crushes his 0/0 army, and your second observer again spots a carrier. Please note that a 200/200 carrier army with good micro is almost unbeatable. I do this in 4v4 teamgames and i usually 1v4 or 1v3 the entire other team at the 20 min mark. So as soon as you see carriers, push and kill him! You abandoned another chance.
At 22 minutes you take two expos(bad) and you kill his fourth(good). But why didn't you attack and go forward!? Your observer tells you that his carriers aren't in a massive force, why not push? Yes he has 5-6 zealots at your fourth, just warp in a few things and kill him, there's no need to pull back your whole army to crush a few zealots!
At 25 minutes you crush his carrier force. If you didn't realize he had carriers by now, you should. First thing to do is research blink!!
The rest of the game is you being indecisive and scared of his measely carrier count until he finally builds up a large enough force of carriers and beats you.
TL; DR Carriers are good, but they take forever to get out and they take up a ton of resources(Stargate+ Fleet Beacon + Carrier + Interceptor). Before carriers reach a critical mass(7 or so) , just A move and kill him.
Hope this helps!
It does help. Thanks for the advice! There seems to be a curve whereby the less skilled you are, the less willing you are to attack. I guess I still have quite a bit of that to get over. It is painful to see so many places where I could have killed him but missed a window. I have to get better at scouting and judging what the strength of my opponent is.
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EPT
