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On July 19 2012 00:18 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 23:36 X3GoldDot wrote:
for example if i have 16 drones in 1 base, is it good to transfer 8 to my natural, while leaving 8 in the main, this is something ive really never understood. 8 drones in each base is more minerals/minute than 16 drones in 1 base right? surely it would eventually overcome the mining time lost on transfer?? No. 8 drones in each base is equivalent to 16 drones on 1 base. The only reason you'd want to transfer when you have 16 in your main and your natural finishes is if you are going to need them to defend bunker pressure or, theoretically, if you are concerned about mining your main out faster than your natural (but I don't think that could possibly justify the transfer since the minerals lost during the transfer wouldn't justify the slight difference in when your main and naturals mine out 15 minutes later).
Yeah honestly I don't think there's much validity to the argument that you want to split up drones at your main/natural so that you mine out later. Early economic advantages really do snowball throughout the game, and I think it's much more important to maximize mining early than it is to worry about mining out bases.
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On July 21 2012 07:07 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 00:18 JDub wrote:On July 18 2012 23:36 X3GoldDot wrote:
for example if i have 16 drones in 1 base, is it good to transfer 8 to my natural, while leaving 8 in the main, this is something ive really never understood. 8 drones in each base is more minerals/minute than 16 drones in 1 base right? surely it would eventually overcome the mining time lost on transfer?? No. 8 drones in each base is equivalent to 16 drones on 1 base. The only reason you'd want to transfer when you have 16 in your main and your natural finishes is if you are going to need them to defend bunker pressure or, theoretically, if you are concerned about mining your main out faster than your natural (but I don't think that could possibly justify the transfer since the minerals lost during the transfer wouldn't justify the slight difference in when your main and naturals mine out 15 minutes later). Yeah honestly I don't think there's much validity to the argument that you want to split up drones at your main/natural so that you mine out later. Early economic advantages really do snowball throughout the game, and I think it's much more important to maximize mining early than it is to worry about mining out bases.
It's far easier to just get each of your main base mineral patches double mined with a set of 16 miners and then just rally everything else to gas/new expansions. This way you can leave them there to do their thing forever with perfect maximum efficiency. You can also then saturate your next base more easily simply because it is 1 base to actively manage instead of 2. And of course, as tang said, the immediate mineral loss has too much opportunity cost associated with it to merit the benefit of a slightly longer lasting main base and a shorter lasting natural...
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On July 19 2012 00:18 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 23:36 X3GoldDot wrote:
for example if i have 16 drones in 1 base, is it good to transfer 8 to my natural, while leaving 8 in the main, this is something ive really never understood. 8 drones in each base is more minerals/minute than 16 drones in 1 base right? surely it would eventually overcome the mining time lost on transfer?? No. 8 drones in each base is equivalent to 16 drones on 1 base. The only reason you'd want to transfer when you have 16 in your main and your natural finishes is if you are going to need them to defend bunker pressure or, theoretically, if you are concerned about mining your main out faster than your natural ( but I don't think that could possibly justify the transfer since the minerals lost during the transfer wouldn't justify the slight difference in when your main and naturals mine out 15 minutes later). You're forgetting something fairly important: Every time you're rallying workers from your main to your natural, you're not gaining minerals in the time that they're travelling. So you're going to lose mining time regardless. When you transfer, you're simply losing it NOW instead of LATER.
As long as you have enough minerals to use all your larvae/build everything you want as your hatch is popping, there is no economic reason not to transfer. And there is an advantage to not mining out your main as quickly. So if you can afford the transfer as your hatch pops, and can defend the drones that you're transferring, you should never NOT transfer.
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Zerg economy depends not just on drone count but the bases we have, as our production scales with hatchery, injects and larva management. This article applies to other races as well, but not well enough for Zerg, as our production is based off larva and it contributes to our supply, army and drone.
Zerg players who cannot understand the Zerg mechanics will always have trouble. And those who are lucky will never seems to understand the early game play style most Zerg players have adopted.
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On July 21 2012 09:03 RampancyTW wrote:
As long as you have enough minerals to use all your larvae/build everything you want as your hatch is popping, there is no economic reason not to transfer. And there is an advantage to not mining out your main as quickly. So if you can afford the transfer as your hatch pops, and can defend the drones that you're transferring, you should never NOT transfer.
Well it's not just about having the minerals to use larva immediately when the hatchery is done. You could be securing a slight economic advantage by transferring after 16-drone saturation, which will allow you to immediately use additional larva instead of having to wait. Not only that, but if you reach that 16-drone saturation in the mine early, it's easy to keep track of how many workers you have, simply because you never need to add/remove drones from the main.
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On July 22 2012 02:34 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 09:03 RampancyTW wrote:
As long as you have enough minerals to use all your larvae/build everything you want as your hatch is popping, there is no economic reason not to transfer. And there is an advantage to not mining out your main as quickly. So if you can afford the transfer as your hatch pops, and can defend the drones that you're transferring, you should never NOT transfer. Well it's not just about having the minerals to use larva immediately when the hatchery is done. You could be securing a slight economic advantage by transferring after 16-drone saturation, which will allow you to immediately use additional larva instead of having to wait. Not only that, but if you reach that 16-drone saturation in the mine early, it's easy to keep track of how many workers you have, simply because you never need to add/remove drones from the main. I don't recommend large transfers with any builds involving gas, because you won't be able to afford spending all of your larvae. Any gasless hatch-first build should be able to afford 2 queens + all larva even with a transfer of up to half of your drones, though.
And considering your queens and larvae will all be popping at almost identical times, and the limited supply involved at this stage of the game, you should have no trouble keeping track of how many workers you have.
A perfect example of when you SHOULDN'T transfer is with a FE vs. a Z that throws down either no hatchery at all or has a delayed expand. Not only is defending your natural drones vs. a dedicated rush difficult, you need the immediate money you'd lose transferring to throw down a couple spines asap along with your queens. Vs. Terran though you should almost always transfer, and vs. any scouted hatch-first build against Zerg you should be transferring because unless you're rushing gas you should be able to afford all of your queen + larva expenditures even with the immediate money loss.
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On July 22 2012 05:37 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 02:34 TangSC wrote:On July 21 2012 09:03 RampancyTW wrote:
As long as you have enough minerals to use all your larvae/build everything you want as your hatch is popping, there is no economic reason not to transfer. And there is an advantage to not mining out your main as quickly. So if you can afford the transfer as your hatch pops, and can defend the drones that you're transferring, you should never NOT transfer. Well it's not just about having the minerals to use larva immediately when the hatchery is done. You could be securing a slight economic advantage by transferring after 16-drone saturation, which will allow you to immediately use additional larva instead of having to wait. Not only that, but if you reach that 16-drone saturation in the mine early, it's easy to keep track of how many workers you have, simply because you never need to add/remove drones from the main. And considering your queens and larvae will all be popping at almost identical times, and the limited supply involved at this stage of the game, you should have no trouble keeping track of how many workers you have.
What I mean is once you reach 16 drones in the main and you're double-mining every patch, you can rally to the expansion and know that you NEVER need to touch the main minerals again unless he kills some of your workers. It makes it easier to maintain the optimal saturation.
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On July 23 2012 03:02 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 05:37 RampancyTW wrote:On July 22 2012 02:34 TangSC wrote:On July 21 2012 09:03 RampancyTW wrote:
As long as you have enough minerals to use all your larvae/build everything you want as your hatch is popping, there is no economic reason not to transfer. And there is an advantage to not mining out your main as quickly. So if you can afford the transfer as your hatch pops, and can defend the drones that you're transferring, you should never NOT transfer. Well it's not just about having the minerals to use larva immediately when the hatchery is done. You could be securing a slight economic advantage by transferring after 16-drone saturation, which will allow you to immediately use additional larva instead of having to wait. Not only that, but if you reach that 16-drone saturation in the mine early, it's easy to keep track of how many workers you have, simply because you never need to add/remove drones from the main. And considering your queens and larvae will all be popping at almost identical times, and the limited supply involved at this stage of the game, you should have no trouble keeping track of how many workers you have. What I mean is once you reach 16 drones in the main and you're double-mining every patch, you can rally to the expansion and know that you NEVER need to touch the main minerals again unless he kills some of your workers. It makes it easier to maintain the optimal saturation. This is a wildly different argument from your initial statement:
The only reason you'd want to transfer when you have 16 in your main and your natural finishes is if you are going to need them to defend bunker pressure or, theoretically, if you are concerned about mining your main out faster than your natural (but I don't think that could possibly justify the transfer since the minerals lost during the transfer wouldn't justify the slight difference in when your main and naturals mine out 15 minutes later).
It may well be "easier" to not transfer drones from the main, but transferring is often the economically optimal decision. Your initial argument that not transferring is better was both incorrect and misleading. It's okay to be wrong. You don't need to keep moving the goalposts. I just want you to be giving accurate information, or at least a balanced opinion, if you're going to be helping out lesser players with things like this.
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On July 23 2012 04:21 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 03:02 TangSC wrote:On July 22 2012 05:37 RampancyTW wrote:On July 22 2012 02:34 TangSC wrote:On July 21 2012 09:03 RampancyTW wrote:
As long as you have enough minerals to use all your larvae/build everything you want as your hatch is popping, there is no economic reason not to transfer. And there is an advantage to not mining out your main as quickly. So if you can afford the transfer as your hatch pops, and can defend the drones that you're transferring, you should never NOT transfer. Well it's not just about having the minerals to use larva immediately when the hatchery is done. You could be securing a slight economic advantage by transferring after 16-drone saturation, which will allow you to immediately use additional larva instead of having to wait. Not only that, but if you reach that 16-drone saturation in the mine early, it's easy to keep track of how many workers you have, simply because you never need to add/remove drones from the main. And considering your queens and larvae will all be popping at almost identical times, and the limited supply involved at this stage of the game, you should have no trouble keeping track of how many workers you have. What I mean is once you reach 16 drones in the main and you're double-mining every patch, you can rally to the expansion and know that you NEVER need to touch the main minerals again unless he kills some of your workers. It makes it easier to maintain the optimal saturation. This is a wildly different argument from your initial statement: Show nested quote +The only reason you'd want to transfer when you have 16 in your main and your natural finishes is if you are going to need them to defend bunker pressure or, theoretically, if you are concerned about mining your main out faster than your natural (but I don't think that could possibly justify the transfer since the minerals lost during the transfer wouldn't justify the slight difference in when your main and naturals mine out 15 minutes later). It may well be "easier" to not transfer drones from the main, but transferring is often the economically optimal decision. Your initial argument that not transferring is better was both incorrect and misleading. It's okay to be wrong. You don't need to keep moving the goalposts. I just want you to be giving accurate information, or at least a balanced opinion, if you're going to be helping out lesser players with things like this.
What an arrogant and ignorant thing to say. If you want to engage in a discussion, please do so with more respect in the future.
By securing 16-drone saturation and then rallying the hatchery to the expansion, you secure the maximum early economy because there is 0 lost mining time. If you transfer drones before 16-drone saturation, you lose efficient mining time that could be used in the main. From a purely-economical standpoint, the rally-method is better (and, as previously stated, easier for maintaining optimal mineral saturation).
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On July 23 2012 04:39 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 04:21 RampancyTW wrote:On July 23 2012 03:02 TangSC wrote:On July 22 2012 05:37 RampancyTW wrote:On July 22 2012 02:34 TangSC wrote:On July 21 2012 09:03 RampancyTW wrote:
As long as you have enough minerals to use all your larvae/build everything you want as your hatch is popping, there is no economic reason not to transfer. And there is an advantage to not mining out your main as quickly. So if you can afford the transfer as your hatch pops, and can defend the drones that you're transferring, you should never NOT transfer. Well it's not just about having the minerals to use larva immediately when the hatchery is done. You could be securing a slight economic advantage by transferring after 16-drone saturation, which will allow you to immediately use additional larva instead of having to wait. Not only that, but if you reach that 16-drone saturation in the mine early, it's easy to keep track of how many workers you have, simply because you never need to add/remove drones from the main. And considering your queens and larvae will all be popping at almost identical times, and the limited supply involved at this stage of the game, you should have no trouble keeping track of how many workers you have. What I mean is once you reach 16 drones in the main and you're double-mining every patch, you can rally to the expansion and know that you NEVER need to touch the main minerals again unless he kills some of your workers. It makes it easier to maintain the optimal saturation. This is a wildly different argument from your initial statement: The only reason you'd want to transfer when you have 16 in your main and your natural finishes is if you are going to need them to defend bunker pressure or, theoretically, if you are concerned about mining your main out faster than your natural (but I don't think that could possibly justify the transfer since the minerals lost during the transfer wouldn't justify the slight difference in when your main and naturals mine out 15 minutes later). It may well be "easier" to not transfer drones from the main, but transferring is often the economically optimal decision. Your initial argument that not transferring is better was both incorrect and misleading. It's okay to be wrong. You don't need to keep moving the goalposts. I just want you to be giving accurate information, or at least a balanced opinion, if you're going to be helping out lesser players with things like this. What an arrogant and ignorant thing to say. If you want to engage in a discussion, please do so with more respect in the future. By securing 16-drone saturation and then rallying the hatchery to the expansion, you secure the maximum early economy because there is 0 lost mining time. If you transfer drones before 16-drone saturation, you lose efficient mining time that could be used in the main. From a purely-economical standpoint, the rally-method is better (and, as previously stated, easier for maintaining optimal mineral saturation). On July 21 2012 09:03 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 00:18 JDub wrote:On July 18 2012 23:36 X3GoldDot wrote:
for example if i have 16 drones in 1 base, is it good to transfer 8 to my natural, while leaving 8 in the main, this is something ive really never understood. 8 drones in each base is more minerals/minute than 16 drones in 1 base right? surely it would eventually overcome the mining time lost on transfer?? No. 8 drones in each base is equivalent to 16 drones on 1 base. The only reason you'd want to transfer when you have 16 in your main and your natural finishes is if you are going to need them to defend bunker pressure or, theoretically, if you are concerned about mining your main out faster than your natural ( but I don't think that could possibly justify the transfer since the minerals lost during the transfer wouldn't justify the slight difference in when your main and naturals mine out 15 minutes later). You're forgetting something fairly important: Every time you're rallying workers from your main to your natural, you're not gaining minerals in the time that they're travelling. So you're going to lose mining time regardless. When you transfer, you're simply losing it NOW instead of LATER. As long as you have enough minerals to use all your larvae/build everything you want as your hatch is popping, there is no economic reason not to transfer. And there is an advantage to not mining out your main as quickly. So if you can afford the transfer as your hatch pops, and can defend the drones that you're transferring, you should never NOT transfer. On July 22 2012 05:37 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 02:34 TangSC wrote:On July 21 2012 09:03 RampancyTW wrote:
As long as you have enough minerals to use all your larvae/build everything you want as your hatch is popping, there is no economic reason not to transfer. And there is an advantage to not mining out your main as quickly. So if you can afford the transfer as your hatch pops, and can defend the drones that you're transferring, you should never NOT transfer. Well it's not just about having the minerals to use larva immediately when the hatchery is done. You could be securing a slight economic advantage by transferring after 16-drone saturation, which will allow you to immediately use additional larva instead of having to wait. Not only that, but if you reach that 16-drone saturation in the mine early, it's easy to keep track of how many workers you have, simply because you never need to add/remove drones from the main. I don't recommend large transfers with any builds involving gas, because you won't be able to afford spending all of your larvae. Any gasless hatch-first build should be able to afford 2 queens + all larva even with a transfer of up to half of your drones, though. And considering your queens and larvae will all be popping at almost identical times, and the limited supply involved at this stage of the game, you should have no trouble keeping track of how many workers you have. A perfect example of when you SHOULDN'T transfer is with a FE vs. a Z that throws down either no hatchery at all or has a delayed expand. Not only is defending your natural drones vs. a dedicated rush difficult, you need the immediate money you'd lose transferring to throw down a couple spines asap along with your queens. Vs. Terran though you should almost always transfer, and vs. any scouted hatch-first build against Zerg you should be transferring because unless you're rushing gas you should be able to afford all of your queen + larva expenditures even with the immediate money loss.
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You will be losing mining time REGARDLESS of whether your transfer or rally, it's just a matter of when you lose it. In fact, being able to double up on more close mineral patches sooner would be an example of a direct economic benefit to transferring. There is also the (not negligible if your expansions are being contested) advantage of keeping minerals in your main for slightly longer.
Your assertion that it is always better to rally instead of transfer is factually incorrect, and misleading. It may be your preference because it's easier, which is completely fine. But it is objectively inferior, albeit not by much, in some situations. Like I said, I just want you to be giving accurate information, or at least a balanced opinion.
Stop letting your ego get in the way of your reason.
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On July 23 2012 05:55 RampancyTW wrote:
You will be losing mining time REGARDLESS of whether your transfer or rally, it's just a matter of when you lose it. In fact, being able to double up on more close mineral patches sooner would be an example of a direct economic benefit to transferring. There is also the (not negligible if your expansions are being contested) advantage of keeping minerals in your main for slightly longer.
Your assertion that it is always better to rally instead of transfer is factually incorrect, and misleading. It may be your preference because it's easier, which is completely fine. But it is objectively inferior, albeit not by much, in some situations. Like I said, I just want you to be giving accurate information, or at least a balanced opinion.
Stop letting your ego get in the way of your reason.
I simply disagree with your logic, and I believe the rally method is the more practical and economical choice. It has absolutely nothing to do with ego and there's no need to escalate this argument with personal attacks.
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On July 23 2012 05:55 RampancyTW wrote:
You will be losing mining time REGARDLESS of whether your transfer or rally, it's just a matter of when you lose it. In fact, being able to double up on more close mineral patches sooner would be an example of a direct economic benefit to transferring. There is also the (not negligible if your expansions are being contested) advantage of keeping minerals in your main for slightly longer.
Your assertion that it is always better to rally instead of transfer is factually incorrect, and misleading. It may be your preference because it's easier, which is completely fine. But it is objectively inferior, albeit not by much, in some situations. Like I said, I just want you to be giving accurate information, or at least a balanced opinion.
Stop letting your ego get in the way of your reason.
you sound like you are 15.
early economic advantages snowball more than later economic advantages.
transferring earlier rather than later loses you a lot more in the long run due to opportunity cost, which in sc, snowballs exponentially since that opportunity cost could be invested in economy, which then allows you to invest in more things that compound an advantageous position (army, eco, tech), which build up your position in the game and opens up better opportunities than you had before
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On July 23 2012 06:57 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 05:55 RampancyTW wrote:
You will be losing mining time REGARDLESS of whether your transfer or rally, it's just a matter of when you lose it. In fact, being able to double up on more close mineral patches sooner would be an example of a direct economic benefit to transferring. There is also the (not negligible if your expansions are being contested) advantage of keeping minerals in your main for slightly longer.
Your assertion that it is always better to rally instead of transfer is factually incorrect, and misleading. It may be your preference because it's easier, which is completely fine. But it is objectively inferior, albeit not by much, in some situations. Like I said, I just want you to be giving accurate information, or at least a balanced opinion.
Stop letting your ego get in the way of your reason. you sound like you are 15. early economic advantages snowball more than later economic advantages. transferring earlier rather than later loses you a lot more in the long run due to opportunity cost, which in sc, snowballs exponentially since that opportunity cost could be invested in economy, which then allows you to invest in more things that compound an advantageous position (army, eco, tech), which build up your position in the game and opens up better opportunities than you had before Which is why I recommend transferring only when you can afford to buy queens AND spend all your larvae. As in a gasless FE.
Unless you're throwing down immediate defenses, you won't be able to immediately spend your money anyways, due to lack of larvae. It's literally impossible for it to "snowball" because there are zero negative effects, along with the positive advantages of more mining time in your main and the ability to double up more close patches earlier.
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On July 23 2012 06:51 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 05:55 RampancyTW wrote:
You will be losing mining time REGARDLESS of whether your transfer or rally, it's just a matter of when you lose it. In fact, being able to double up on more close mineral patches sooner would be an example of a direct economic benefit to transferring. There is also the (not negligible if your expansions are being contested) advantage of keeping minerals in your main for slightly longer.
Your assertion that it is always better to rally instead of transfer is factually incorrect, and misleading. It may be your preference because it's easier, which is completely fine. But it is objectively inferior, albeit not by much, in some situations. Like I said, I just want you to be giving accurate information, or at least a balanced opinion.
Stop letting your ego get in the way of your reason. I simply disagree with your logic, and I believe the rally method is the more practical and economical choice. It has absolutely nothing to do with ego and there's no need to escalate this argument with personal attacks. Well, my logic has factual basis, and this is a specific thing that has nothing to do with belief and everything to do with facts. Your preference due to ease/practicality/whatever is perfectly fine, but your preference to rally is different than saying rallying is objectively better in all situations. Which is what you were doing, and is all I was trying to clarify in the first place.
And don't take a high horse about personal attacks when you threw around "arrogant" and "ignorant" to start this off.
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On July 23 2012 07:46 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 06:51 TangSC wrote:On July 23 2012 05:55 RampancyTW wrote:
You will be losing mining time REGARDLESS of whether your transfer or rally, it's just a matter of when you lose it. In fact, being able to double up on more close mineral patches sooner would be an example of a direct economic benefit to transferring. There is also the (not negligible if your expansions are being contested) advantage of keeping minerals in your main for slightly longer.
Your assertion that it is always better to rally instead of transfer is factually incorrect, and misleading. It may be your preference because it's easier, which is completely fine. But it is objectively inferior, albeit not by much, in some situations. Like I said, I just want you to be giving accurate information, or at least a balanced opinion.
Stop letting your ego get in the way of your reason. I simply disagree with your logic, and I believe the rally method is the more practical and economical choice. It has absolutely nothing to do with ego and there's no need to escalate this argument with personal attacks. your preference to rally is different than saying rallying is objectively better in all situations. Which is what you were doing, and is all I was trying to clarify in the first place.
I still maintain that rallying after 16 is (marginally) better in all situations (excluding when you must use drones to defend).
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Not your best work Tang =/
Everyone who didn't already know about proper saturation only needed to hear the 16 drones on minerals per base part. And the only people who should really be devoting energy to maximizing economy by micro managing the optimal way to saturate gas geysers already know it.
Guide is a nice effort for sure, but overall I got the impression you were hard up for a new idea for a guide and were desperate to come up with something. I really feel like focusing on most of this stuff is going to be counterproductive for the vast majority of players who aren't tip top masters/GM which is kind of contradictory to the purpose of writing a guide in the first place.
Just my 2 cents worth of feedback!! <3
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On July 23 2012 09:08 Joedaddy wrote:
Guide is a nice effort for sure, but overall I got the impression you were hard up for a new idea for a guide and were desperate to come up with.
It's a topic I've always been very interested in. I do think this information is valuable for all skill levels, especially the middle/higher leagues - even if players don't have the apm to practice perfection, little bits here and there do make a difference. Also, this guide will serve as a "base" for the next few guides, which will focus on reaching ideal 2-3 base economies and using that economy to maximize units at a particular time.
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I never see pros like DRG/NesTea and other zergs rally always see them transfer drones to new expos right away.
pros always say transfer drones because its more ecom then a 16 drone minning base vs a free expo with 0 drones and u rallying them. for example in pvz drg soon as his natural is done, he transfers 4-5 drones right away, soon as his 3rd is done, he transfers 3-4 to from his natural to his 3rd, next round of larva drones should saturate all 3 bases with 16 drones, rather then having to rally them.
You wont find very many zerg in the GSL rallying drones, u always seem them transfer drones, if they take gas they transfer 3-4 right away, if gasless for example nes tea will just transfer like 9 drones to his natural over rallying...
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On July 23 2012 11:56 silentdecay01 wrote:
I never see pros like DRG/NesTea and other zergs rally always see them transfer drones to new expos right away.
I see Stephano choose the rally method, usually. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with transferring drones, it just means you value equally saturating your bases over maximizing early income.
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EPT
