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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
Do you think pure infestor would have been a good idea instead? No no no no not at all. I mean instead of losing 18 infestors with full energy trying to chain fungal one at a time, you could have made more than one hundred infested terrans (literally 100+) at the beginning of the fight to support your 16 broodlords, and then used a few fungals after that. | ||
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Bubbadub
United States156 Posts
On July 13 2012 06:51 Belial88 wrote: Really? I've never heard of this, I thought ultras sucking against mech was 'common knowledge'. Like ultra vs thor, ultra vs mass siege tanks, ultras vs PF's... I'd love to see a replay/vod of this, because I've never seen it happen. Or is it that ultras are good against sky terran? In which case I'd still like to see a rep. But Ive never heard anyone say ultras vs mech... I think this is only half true. From my experience ultra ling infestor works ONLY if you force them to tie up their supply into vikings/thors/ravens, then switch into it with a re-max once your army dies. Most terrans will suicide their tanks when they see you go for a heavy air composition with little to no ground support, which is really where ling ultra infestor shines. Without enough tanks, the terran cannot focus down your infestors and stop you from NPing a lot of the thors, lings surround and dont get hit by a ton of splash damage (except for HSM which will generally hit their thors too bc they are so fast to surround). Vikings are just bad against anything on the ground really, and the Terran won't have enough HSM to kill ALL your ultralisks before you clean up. If the terran keeps 5+ tanks in his composition in order to be ready for this switch (and keeps a defensive position) then it becomes very hard to engage his army head-on. | ||
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Actinium_
17 Posts
First option is: don't let him get it. If you don't take any big damage from hellion harass early in the game you can usually max on roaches very quickly. Normally what i do from this point is load up half of them and drop them in the main and use the rest to attack a third/outside expansion while hes trying to clear up his main. This isn't really viable on cloud kingdom and he also made quite a few turrets here. If you have an opportunity though you can simply drop all your roaches on his army. This might not kill his army but it will destroy a big chunk of it. Then you can simply remax instantly off the back of your great econ and finish him. This works surprisingly well let me tell you. I definitely have more success using these roach attacks then i do when i get taken into a late game. The problem with broods is that the terran should almost always see them coming. Engaging tanks, mass thors and vikings is extremely tricky and i certainly dont have the micro to pull it off. The tanks hit the infestors, the thors hit the corruptors and the vikings can sit safely above and hit everything in the air. It's very difficult. So my strategy for the late game is to go broods but to not really commit. i make 6 broods and just try and make them commit to sky terran. Then i prepare for a Ultra switch. Basically make sure you have an ultralisk cavern and all your ultra ups, plenty of infestors with neural parasite and do a huge tech switch to ling ultra infestor after a big fight. They should have stopped making tanks and hellions in mass and be3 committing to thor viking. Then you engage with the ultras/lings in the front and once they engage just mass neural parasite. All the thors, any tanks, everything. If you neural enough you should win the fight handily. And if they already committed to sky terran then a few banshees/bc's really should be a problem. I have some replays of these strategies at work but i don't have time to find them right now so i'll edit this post when i do find them and put them in. Good luck! | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On entombed you will see me do a stupid drop and I did forget neural but you will see neural later in the game  | ||
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ajkayken
77 Posts
i honestly dont think this is abusing a bug, but infested terrans are incredibly more powerful when you use the mousescroll trick just set your mouse scroll to leftclick and you can launch 100 infested terrans in 2 seconds rather than 15 seconds 13 infested can launch 100 infested terrans. with 3/3 upgrades they are insanely powerful when the terran has lots of vikings like that the counter is ultras. tons and tons of ultras. attack his PF line with 10 ultras and then use 13 infestors to launch 90 infested terrans and maybe a couple fungals 10 ultras and 13 infestors is 86food and can deal tons of damage to even a 200food fortified terran position (assuming the terran had 20 vikings in his comp which triggered you to do a ultra attack). you essentially sacrifice 10 ultras (which costs as much gas as 20 mutalisks) but you do tons more damage than 20 mutalisks would do. and with good micro hopefully you get your infestors out alive your infestors retreat and regenerate energy and then you can do it again with another 10 ultras when your back to 200 energy so this way you can attack with 86food into his fortified position, you have 90drones, that leaves 24 food left for base defense (which you should probably always be doing) with your spines since you dont want drops to kill you too badly while attacking. hmmm that 24food is probably a few queens and defensive infestors/whatever after the ultralisks die you can pump out more 3/3 ultra/roach and play very defensive on your side of the map while your infestors generate energy again | ||
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Dontkillme
Korea (South)806 Posts
On July 13 2012 03:35 zmansman17 wrote: There is no such thing as the Terran deathball. Also, stating that "nothing really works" is a far cry from the truth. You should have had enough units to deny his fourth. A mech player cannot very well hold a fourth in a TvZ, unless the Zerg player had gotten far behind in the early game. In your case, you should have denied this base for much longer or mounted an attack. It may be worth utilizing your overlords for more scouting information User was warned for this post I don't understand why this user was warned. Seems like everything he said made sense | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 13 2012 07:50 Dontkillme wrote: I don't understand why this user was warned. Seems like everything he said made sense He didn't watch the replay, didn't give information based on the replay and his information was false. That is why he was warned. Mech players can get a fourth and going mech does have a deathballish type of army that crushes every unit except like broodlords or ultra/ling/infestor with neural and flanks. | ||
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CFCryptos
United States70 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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ajkayken
77 Posts
On July 13 2012 07:57 CFCryptos wrote: Im calling MOD harassment im sure ill get banned for sayin this but im serious, people are getting temp banned and warned for nothing rofl, some idiot mod typed ill check replay later " if u mods are gonna be that picky, then u should temp bann urself aswell because it is against the strategy guidelines to give any advice without evidence and if there is a replay must watch before posting- SKabam~ just saying though alot of mods juts throw warnings for no reason everywhere. its not hard to avoid problems with the mods that guys post clearly had a snobby "your wrong" tone to it.... if you just post nicely with a nice friendly "your wrong heres why i think so" tone you probably wont get problems with mods | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 13 2012 07:57 CFCryptos wrote: Im calling MOD harassment im sure ill get banned for sayin this but im serious, people are getting temp banned and warned for nothing rofl, some idiot mod typed ill check replay later " if u mods are gonna be that picky, then u should temp bann urself aswell because it is against the strategy guidelines to give any advice without evidence and if there is a replay must watch before posting- SKabam~ just saying though alot of mods juts throw warnings for no reason everywhere. You are going to get banned you are martying. They ban no matter how logical your post would be when martying ^_^. Also no mods have posted in this topic so not sure what you are talking about in terms of mod lol. | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
BL/infestor is a strong composition, and zerg can get it's top tier way faster than everyone else, but it just CANNOT win a straight-up engagement with a higher tier. In the end, it's quite obvious terran has a WAY more powerful army than zerg once ravens and/or BCs are up. That being said, the balance for zerg is that it can instantly remax and it can instantly tech switch. Zerg's strength against mech in particular is being able to max out on BL/infestor, then max out on roaches, then max out on muta/ling, then max out on BL/infestor again. Also, mutas are AWESOME against mech. If you can make like 6-8 mutas when he's on 3 bases, you can generally cause him some grief, assuming you don't open yourself up to a mech doom push. When you're on like 6-7 bases versus 4-base, don't be afraid to trade and then remax on a different tech path like muta/ling or pure roach and start attacking everywhere. EXTRA INFO: Protoss maxes out at a tier 3. Their balance comes in the fact that they can essentially remove an entire tier from their opponent with the Mothership vortex. Mothership acts like a tier 4 in that it allows the lesser army of protoss to take on armies that should be substantially stronger. I think we all remember the 13 BC vortex snag from Mvp vs Squirtle.... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 13 2012 09:14 SC2John wrote: The way SC2 is balanced out (asymmetrically) is that terran has a higher tier than zerg. Mech is like the tier 3 strongest standard, cost effective army for terran. When you add in BC/Ravens, you kind of get a tier 4. We talked a lot about late game terran armies and such in an old thread: Terran lategame discussion BL/infestor is a strong composition, and zerg can get it's top tier way faster than everyone else, but it just CANNOT win a straight-up engagement with a higher tier. In the end, it's quite obvious terran has a WAY more powerful army than zerg once ravens and/or BCs are up. That being said, the balance for zerg is that it can instantly remax and it can instantly tech switch. Zerg's strength against mech in particular is being able to max out on BL/infestor, then max out on roaches, then max out on muta/ling, then max out on BL/infestor again. Also, mutas are AWESOME against mech. If you can make like 6-8 mutas when he's on 3 bases, you can generally cause him some grief, assuming you don't open yourself up to a mech doom push. When you're on like 6-7 bases versus 4-base, don't be afraid to trade and then remax on a different tech path like muta/ling or pure roach and start attacking everywhere. EXTRA INFO: Protoss maxes out at a tier 3. Their balance comes in the fact that they can essentially remove an entire tier from their opponent with the Mothership vortex. Mothership acts like a tier 4 in that it allows the lesser army of protoss to take on armies that should be substantially stronger. I think we all remember the 13 BC vortex snag from Mvp vs Squirtle.... Don't be a fool, there are unitcounters for everything in this game and as long as you have the right ratio to your opponents units, you can win with proper control, if you can "just" produce enough of them. And though all techpaths are different, essentiall you cannot talk about one race having higher Tier compositions. If anything, just don't talk about Tiers at all once all techs for all races are unlocked, as it simply doesnt make sense. Tier in Stacraft is meant to be a techrequirement, but unlike a lot of other RTS games (SupCom comes to mind), higher Tier doesn't generally mean better unit. And sry to be mean, but that stuff about T4 Terran and mothership removing a Tier... that's just wrong. The game is not balanced like this, the game is balanced like "here we have a bunch of concepts for units and their techrequirements. Lets see if they work" And mutas are not "awesome" vs mech. If you just watch the replay, his opponent had turrets everywhere, he did not go mass tank but mostly Thors and Ravens and Vikings are both OK vs mutas as well. There was absolutly no space for mutaharassment in this game. Muta/Roach switches can be great, but you have to be aggressive early on with that... | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 13 2012 08:15 wcr.4fun wrote: If you remax on ultra/ling/bling/infestor after a broodlord/corruptor/infestor army, what's stopping the terran from using his vikings to own every single overlord you have? How do you handle this? Move your overlords to queen support, use infestors and just fungel and kill them. Build a couple spors and then put overlords in that safety zone. Many ways you can deal with them ^^ | ||
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ajkayken
77 Posts
On July 13 2012 11:19 Big J wrote: Don't be a fool, there are unitcounters for everything in this game and as long as you have the right ratio to your opponents units, you can win with proper control, if you can "just" produce enough of them. And though all techpaths are different, essentiall you cannot talk about one race having higher Tier compositions. If anything, just don't talk about Tiers at all once all techs for all races are unlocked, as it simply doesnt make sense. Tier in Stacraft is meant to be a techrequirement, but unlike a lot of other RTS games (SupCom comes to mind), higher Tier doesn't generally mean better unit. And sry to be mean, but that stuff about T4 Terran and mothership removing a Tier... that's just wrong. The game is not balanced like this, the game is balanced like "here we have a bunch of concepts for units and their techrequirements. Lets see if they work" And mutas are not "awesome" vs mech. If you just watch the replay, his opponent had turrets everywhere, he did not go mass tank but mostly Thors and Ravens and Vikings are both OK vs mutas as well. There was absolutly no space for mutaharassment in this game. Muta/Roach switches can be great, but you have to be aggressive early on with that... sc2 may not be intentionally balanced this way, however he is right in a sense that the ultimate 200food terran army cannot be defeated by the ultimate 200food zerg army hopefully the zerg has enough economy so when he loses his army, he can keep remaxing and swarming the terrans army also strangely this applies for toss as well, however it has less to do with mothership/vortex and more to do with carrier/voidray/storm/a couple archons. thats the ultimate toss army and no zerg army can touch it. vortex is needed to allow stalker/archon to beat zergs mega army, but if toss has their strongest army (carrier/voidray/storm/archon) vortex isnt needed but the motherships still powerful for the cloaking field. were seeing more and more pro tosses learning how to win with this ultimate army. we saw one game where squirtle got that army against coca in their showmatch a few days ago and coca just got slaughtered like no tomorrow | ||
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NOOBALOPSE
Canada802 Posts
Stream more please! <3 And link me to your stream so i can favourite it : P. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 13 2012 12:40 NOOBALOPSE wrote: wow, blade is really smart... Stream more please! <3 And link me to your stream so i can favourite it : P. haha thanks my teamliquid stream link http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/blade55555 I try my best to look smart :p | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 13 2012 11:19 Big J wrote: Don't be a fool, there are unitcounters for everything in this game and as long as you have the right ratio to your opponents units, you can win with proper control, if you can "just" produce enough of them. And though all techpaths are different, essentiall you cannot talk about one race having higher Tier compositions. If anything, just don't talk about Tiers at all once all techs for all races are unlocked, as it simply doesnt make sense. Tier in Stacraft is meant to be a techrequirement, but unlike a lot of other RTS games (SupCom comes to mind), higher Tier doesn't generally mean better unit. And sry to be mean, but that stuff about T4 Terran and mothership removing a Tier... that's just wrong. The game is not balanced like this, the game is balanced like "here we have a bunch of concepts for units and their techrequirements. Lets see if they work" And mutas are not "awesome" vs mech. If you just watch the replay, his opponent had turrets everywhere, he did not go mass tank but mostly Thors and Ravens and Vikings are both OK vs mutas as well. There was absolutly no space for mutaharassment in this game. Muta/Roach switches can be great, but you have to be aggressive early on with that... "Unit counters" are a logically fallacy. 4 hellions versus 4 roaches = ???. I mean, in a straight-up fight, roaches win for sure, hellions can win with a ton of micro. And then what if we talk about 20 hellions versus 4 roaches? Hellions win every time, even in a straight-up engagement. There are units that DO WELL against others, but no unit ACTUALLY counters another. If you want another prevalent example: zealot versus roaches, zealots win a 1-on-1 battle with no micro. Assuming your definition of "tier" is a techpath, I still contend that terran and protoss have a special tier above zerg. As said above, the "ultimate zerg army" gets straight up crushed against the "ultimate protoss army" or the "ultimate terran army". If you can't consider all the extra tech needed for Ravens (5 upgrades), BC (Fusion core), or mothership/carriers (Fleet Beacon) part of a separate ULTRA LATEGAME TECH that allows terran and protoss to get ahead, how can you justify the fact that zerg loses in every one of those battles? It's just a FACT, part of the set of rules put forth in SC2. It's okay, zerg's power isn't in having an unstoppable army; their power is in the fact that they have insta-remaxes and insta-tech switches. They can also get to their "ultimate zerg army" much faster than any other race. I have not watched the replay yet, but I suspect the primary difficulty facing Belial was probably an inability to do successful tech switches against a turtly meching player. I will watch the replay and comment on exactly what I see tomorrow. I just think it's important for everyone to understand where the power of zerg, terran, and protoss armies lie; if you know where their power lies, you can find their weaknesses. | ||
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sfdrew
United States201 Posts
11 infestors with 7 more on the way... too... many... infestors.... (if you're going brood lords) You are going to need a LOT of corruptors so I think that 18 infestors really is too much... ^This. Also, you let him turtle too long and max out his army. You said he took a fourth early, but it didn't look early to me. Instead of making so many infestors, you could have dumped the gas into something else like roaches and at could have at least been harassing him. You had plenty of bases and creep to fall back on, and lots of minerals. | ||
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