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Credential first - Bottom feeder SEA GM
Watched your replay in detail and i agree mostly with what NOOBALOPSE mentioned, but you added your own reasons, so i'll further justify his answers.
Show nested quote +4:30
You see the bunker, but instead of just letting it finish and making a spine ( it's too far away I think) you send your drones at the marines and lose three drones... That is a LOT of drones early game. about 1/5 of your economy at the time you lost the drones.
This could even be the biggest mistake of the game. Honestly, what is the bunker going to do to you? It's just wasted minerals by him because it is not close enough to you to do anything other than deny the rightmost 2 mineral patches of mining.
Also, if they put the bunker in the open, you only need to pull six drones and target the bunker, not 8. But the bunker would deny mining and allow him to make a 2nd bunker, as well put more marines in said bunker. I know I lost some drones there, but I think I made even with how I responded (he lost a couple marines, an SCV, and made a bunker which delays his build) I think the bunker would have done a lot more than just deny the right 2 patches. With reinforcing marines I think he could take the hatch, or put a 2nd bunker and have done a lot more damage. As it stood, I was okay with losing 3 drones because I killed an SCV, he built a bunker which basically delays his build by like 2 scvs, and a couple marines. I think I bungled the execution though, I was trying to pull back the weak drone but I think somehow I sent like only 2 drones at first, then more, and I was trying to make the get there all the same time.
Doing what you did was okay if you had not bungled your drone micro. A better response would be to not pull drones, make 6 lings, send the 6 lings to deny reinforcement. Once both your queen pops, inject and send them down to snipe the bunker and scv, using the queens to tank the initial shots. You scouted gas(single rax reinforcement) and you could have mined from the further patches until your queen popped.
5:30
Pull after you have enough gas for speed. It's really bad for your economy not to...
You did not respond to this so i'll further stress this. By the time you went for lair you had 300 going on 400 gas. It could have been at least another 5 -6 drones there.
Another point here is that you do not need your 4th queen so early. A 2-base spanishiwa build can support 4 queens without interruption to droning, but a speed first build cannot, which coupled with your gas income, severely affected your drone count.
Add on the queens a little later. I do not disagree with the number of queens as i believe is a matter of playing style. It's just a matter of timing. What i do is i judge when my 3rd is finishing, send my nat queen over there just after an inject and build a queen at my nat.
Some extra notes on macro:-
1) Upgrades were slow - He was upgrading 3/3 when you were upgrading 1/2. You had the gas for it, throw down the evo chamber. Ground attack upgrades are VERY important when dealing with mech. With the amount of powering going on, you could consider getting a 2nd spire, since you had the economy to support it. Both air upgrades help tremendously in clearing up air units and tanking thor's air aoe.
2) At the moment your broodlord popped, you were on 6 base gas and later on 7 base. That's too much at that stage. Some people work on 4 base gas. 5 base gas is beautiful. 6 base is overkill. If you had your drones on mineral instead, you couldve morphed your broodlords that much earlier with the oversupply trick.
3) Exceeding supply - You can do it another way by morphing broods first, and then spine and build your corrupter. During that time, your broods could've started siege on the 4th of his with the support of a handful of corrupters and the many infestors you have.
4) I noticed that you did not hotkey all your hatchery late game. Not so important in this case, yet if ever you go to a game where you want to tech switch this would be important
Engagements
1) Most of your battles, you were just too afraid of the heat seeker missiles. There is no choice but for you to initiate the engagement. Terrans will just wait to max out on supply and energy. You were controlling your units separately almost every engagement. Either your broodlords were shooting, or your infestors were fungaling/throwing infested terrans, and your corrupters idling. Your queens did nothing btw. The initial broodlord spread & engagement at the 4th was beautiful. You should've maintained it, and with the broodlings below your infestors could have just waddled in to fungal and throw infested terrans with impunity. Don't back away just because he threw down 2 point defense drone.
2) Better army composition - I believe you had too many infestors. Probably switch some of them to corrupters as he was quite air heavy.
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Also, you let him turtle too long and max out his army. You said he took a fourth early, but it didn't look early to me. Instead of making so many infestors, you could have dumped the gas into something else like roaches and at could have at least been harassing him. You had plenty of bases and creep to fall back on, and lots of minerals.
I never said he took an early fourth. i said he eventually took a fourth. It really doesn't sound like you watched the replay. What harass would I have been able to do against a walled off Terran with multiple PF's everywhere?
You did not respond to this so i'll further stress this. By the time you went for lair you had 300 going on 400 gas. It could have been at least another 5 -6 drones there.
Another point here is that you do not need your 4th queen so early. A 2-base spanishiwa build can support 4 queens without interruption to droning, but a speed first build cannot, which coupled with your gas income, severely affected your drone count.
Add on the queens a little later. I do not disagree with the number of queens as i believe is a matter of playing style. It's just a matter of timing. What i do is i judge when my 3rd is finishing, send my nat queen over there just after an inject and build a queen at my nat.
But isn't the whole thing right now is like 6 queen in ZvT?
Now, I understand that is vs 1 rax FE, but I also thought the idea was that 'herp derp zerg can do whatever they want and just go 6 queen fast third?". I don't think it's exactly like that, but I got quick speed, made a couple lings for the reactor hellion, and then went up to 5 queen while taking a third and denying any attempt of terran to deny it.
Also, I think the response against reactor hellion is about 400 minerals in defense - or 2 extra queens, 1 extra queen and a spine, with some lings. I wasn't trying to be turtley, I just think I needed that to defend against the reactor hellion and then secure my third against it.
I'll try to be more aware about cutting gas now on after speed though. I think I wasn't sure what his follow-up was, so I kept mining.
2) At the moment your broodlord popped, you were on 6 base gas and later on 7 base. That's too much at that stage. Some people work on 4 base gas. 5 base gas is beautiful. 6 base is overkill. If you had your drones on mineral instead, you couldve morphed your broodlords that much earlier with the oversupply trick.
hmm okay. Thanks.
3) Exceeding supply - You can do it another way by morphing broods first, and then spine and build your corrupter. During that time, your broods could've started siege on the 4th of his with the support of a handful of corrupters and the many infestors you have.
I see. Well I was considering doing the whole run-in-with-corruptors-snipe-shit like people sometimes do against motherships. I supppose though what you say is better in zvt though.
4) I noticed that you did not hotkey all your hatchery late game. Not so important in this case, yet if ever you go to a game where you want to tech switch this would be important
I dont hotkey hatches that are in awkward places, like at his expos, so reinforcements dont get cut during a battle, etc.
1) Most of your battles, you were just too afraid of the heat seeker missiles. There is no choice but for you to initiate the engagement. Terrans will just wait to max out on supply and energy. You were controlling your units separately almost every engagement. Either your broodlords were shooting, or your infestors were fungaling/throwing infested terrans, and your corrupters idling. Your queens did nothing btw. The initial broodlord spread & engagement at the 4th was beautiful. You should've maintained it, and with the broodlings below your infestors could have just waddled in to fungal and throw infested terrans with impunity. Don't back away just because he threw down 2 point defense drone.
Hm, I see a lot of people saying that I could have won the game there, and thanks, I appreciate it. I should have went all the way in there, and thrown in my infestors.
I kind of felt IT would not have been useful becdause of the 2xPF and siege tanks though, but I'll spam them next time.
But I'm also a bit lost at what happens after that, or do you think after this point, I was truly lost?
Thanks for your input! I know most people have to pay for someone like you and Blade55555's input.
As per the posters above, I suggest you also use NP, but use it on SCVs, then have the SCV to build a command center, and then build up an equally powerful deathball yourself
lol... if you watched the replay you'd notice I tried to do that. There are a few practical problems with this advice though.
Thanks everyone for your help. I think what is being boiled down here is:
1. Should have been more aggressive with my broodlords, and gone for a timing attack, rather than giving Terran so much time and going for some sort of dream, 220/200 tricked army, and spammed IT with it as well.
2. Ultras are good vs Skymech
3. Should not expand all over the map to the detriment of mineral economy.
Just a few things I have questions about:
1. So after my initial engagement where I did not spam IT's enough or was aggressive enough (even against his entire army + 2 PF's there, I'm a bit hesitant that would have worked, but next time I recognize an 'oh boy this will take another hour' game I'll do more to end it before the deathball is out), was the game just lost for me? Maybe this time was like 10 minutes, but I'm just curious when did the game, in your opinion, get to a point where I had no chance to win?
2. Early game, i get my drone count was hurt by 5 queens and speed, but I wasn't exactly sure what Terran was doing, and only deduced he was expanding after I saw an SCV move to the southern edge where Terran's tend to be put CCs (or starports). Also, I know 6 queen is like the standard build these days, but personally my build is ~30 gas (make it around 24 if they open 1 base), 5 queen, and quick third. I didn't do the spanishiwa build in this game, i went fast third, with mass queen, but with a gas at ~24. I didn't remove from gas simply because i wasn't too sure if Terran was 1 basing or not...
I guess this is more of "is my build good?" question, but I find things like 1 rax FE into reactor hellion , banshee really requires speedlings. And against reactor hellion maybe I should have only made 4 queens and speed? I just wanted to secure my third.
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I never said he took an early fourth. i said he eventually took a fourth. It really doesn't sound like you watched the replay. What harass would I have been able to do against a walled off Terran with multiple PF's everywhere?
Allow me to quote your OP.
He takes a fourth pretty quickly, ...
Also, I watched the replay, which was quite lengthly. I don't play Zerg or Terran, and I'm not as skilled as the two of you are, so I can't give you specific advice, but I will reiterate what I said before: you let him max out mech without any trouble. A maxed out Terran mech army is really hard to beat, for anybody.
You sat on your butt for 25 minutes, and when you finally attacked, you did a poor job. You had no buffer for your infestors and your corruptors were separated from your broods. Instead of attacking him at his foruth, where he was entrenched, you could have taken the corruptors and broods up and around and attacked his main. His slow army would have taken forever to get up there. If he had gone for a base trade you would have almost surely won. You had more bases for him to kill and his army is slower.
Bottom line: you were too passive and when you did engage, you chose poor ways to do it. At 25 mintues, that game should have been yours. You could have put pressure on him when he was taking his nat, but you were busy playing macro and taking bases, which was ok because it put you in a decent position later, but you didn't use it well.
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Now, I understand that is vs 1 rax FE, but I also thought the idea was that 'herp derp zerg can do whatever they want and just go 6 queen fast third?". I don't think it's exactly like that, but I got quick speed, made a couple lings for the reactor hellion, and then went up to 5 queen while taking a third and denying any attempt of terran to deny it.
when you go 6 queens, you take gas AFTER making six queens. In this game you mined gas for speed, and kept mining, and couldn't spend that gas, so basically you are floating money while still droning, and that's bad. What you did would be okay if you took drones out of gas. If you're ever at a point where you have larva that you can't spend in the early game, you need to consider delaying one of the queens, or delaying gas, or taking drones out of gas again.
I didn't remove from gas simply because i wasn't too sure if Terran was 1 basing or not...
What were you going to spend that gas on even if he was 1 basing? If you leave one drone on gas you can put down a defensive baneling nest, put drones back in gas, and take a 2nd geyser to catch up. Or you can take all drones off gas, and when you spot trouble, put them in back in gas, start a roach warren, and take a 2nd geyser, and you'll have enough gas for a few roaches when the roach warren finishes. Having a gas bank for no reason will just hurt even more against a 1-basing opponent.
I kind of felt IT would not have been useful becdause of the 2xPF and siege tanks though, but I'll spam them next time.
Between broodlings and infested terrans, he won't be able to kill them all nearly quick enough. Especially when his thors are shooting at air instead of ground as well, and especially when he unsieged his tanks due to broodlords. I really recommend continuing to upgrade ranged attack instead of carapace so that your infested marines are really good.
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Against mech I really do like the mobile army of ling/bling/infestor/ultra. With nydus worms at all of your bases, and expanding all around the map, you can really do a lot of damage.
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Other than compositional issues, the thing that most often lets me win fights against mech is neural and fungal growth control. You need to have some Infested Terrans ahead of your broodlords, and then keep fungal up whenever the Ravens try to get close. Neural on Ravens is not what I would recommend. If you manage to snag a Thor or two, the Infested Terrans and Broodlings should make it impossible for him to advance enough to kill the Infestors, taking critical amounts of his food and adding it to your army.
- The main concern is the Thor count! If you're capable of eradicating the Thors, you can remax on a Infestor/Corrupter/Ling army and just overrun him.
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when you go 6 queens, you take gas AFTER making six queens. In this game you mined gas for speed, and kept mining, and couldn't spend that gas, so basically you are floating money while still droning, and that's bad. What you did would be okay if you took drones out of gas. If you're ever at a point where you have larva that you can't spend in the early game, you need to consider delaying one of the queens, or delaying gas, or taking drones out of gas again.
Okay, this is what I'm going to do now:
vs 1 base openings (like reactor hellion:
4 queen, ~23 gas for ling speed, take off gas. 5th queen much much later
vs 1raxFE
5 queen, ~32 gas for ling speed, take off gas.
I just feel like I need that ling speed.
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http://drop.sc/227010
Okay, so this game just happened.
ZvT, Shakuras, Mid-masters.
Terran goes mech, I identify it, he actually opens some sort of 1 base all-innish gas first play and I came out way ahead when identified it but even with a huge economic lead it doesn't really matter.
I notice he goes air, so I think that he may not have many siege tanks so I can capitalize on it with a roach attack. It didn't really work out too well, and I tried to go ultra/np and that didn't really work well either, but cut his army a bit.
So eventually he puts PF's all over the middle of the map, he actually does this quite early.
So noticing he has a lot of tanks, and PFs, I think ultras are not the way to go, and instead that I should go BL/Infestor of some sort, and race upgrades. Double evo, double spire, I had 3/3/3/3 pretty early on.
But it doesn't matter. Terran deathball > Zerg deathball.
He has a TON of tanks, so I can't use infestors to get close at all, and I can't get my broodlord/corruptor in at all because he has a TON of vikings/ravens, and the raven count starts to get high real quickly.
Don't know what to do against this sort of play... I don't even think roach aggression works well anymore either. I used to do that, just roach max while getting infestor tech, but now I see that as all-innish, and it won't work if Terran is actually trying to do a mass siege tank/thor 3 base attack (which roach/infestor does okay against, but then why make roaches at all and just go rush broodlords in that case...).
Unlike the last game, mass IT spam doesn't work well because he has a shitload of tanks and PFs. And unlike the last game, ultras don't work well because, well, he has a shitload of PFs and tanks.
I just end up dying to his deathball. In that first rep, Ultra may have worked because he had so much air, but in this game I didn't think ultras would work with is PFs and high siege tank count.
I'm starting to run into this a lot on ladder ;/
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the replay says your opponent is protoss. U sure its zvt?
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^ Edited OP and that post. sorry, im not sure why that happens sometimes.
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hey belial,
just watched both games. Its pretty difficult to find a combination to attack head on. Especially since a slow and steady mech terran will almost always find a good defensive / offensive positions. They can't really be "caught out" like MMM + tanks can be.
I much rather discuss more about compositional / timing / attack strategies without going too much into mechanics and micro, so my points:
a. mech players repair. So if you're going to attack, make sure you at least kill something, you're already being cost ineffective, but at least you have 6 bases. Getting all those infestors / bl killed, and nothing to show for it really hurts. In the Cloud Kingdom game, the Terran's composition had very little tanks, but a very quick 3/3 mech upgrade. I felt that had you your own ultras / infestors with NP, you'll already be more cost-effective.
b. With the Shakuras Plateau game, that was more difficult because he had many tanks and frontal PFs. I think map wise, it was more difficult for you than cloud kingdom.
c. Back to the Cloud Kingdom game, actually although people diss the hydralisk as useless (and it is pretty ineffective), I feel Ultra / Hydra / Infestor combo is probably the best shot composition against Raven, Thor, PF, Vikings. If you can further micro some queens to extend the life of your ultras, Hydras should be able to make short work of Thors and Terran Air. Of course PDD still counters hydralisks but less than corrupters.
d. Most importantly however, I think the best window of opportunity is really in the first 15 mins. After that it all goes downhill. You best opportunity would be to play T2 only, large roach / hydra drops (not just 3 overlords with lings!), baneling drops at mineral lines, I always say have the nydus ready immediately for use the minute you land your drops / use the nydus for queens, drones (spines and spores), bringing and retreating infestors.
With the Shakuras plateau game, even if he has a turret ring, its still better to have dropped, you lose less units than a PF + tank + thor.
Having even 2 nyduses ready might be a good idea for double drop, attack. He has to split his troops or decide to save one location before another. Splitting up his slow immobile costly troops is probably the better way to be cost effective. Rather than fight the terran "deathball".
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'30min no rush' to and cry that terran has imba deathball
User was warned for this post
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Belial, after watching the replay I have to wonder, why the gas in the natural as the first gas? You're losing mining time just by transfering drones over to the natural, and then to the gas. Instead of just sending them after they deliver minerals straight into the gas. On top of having the ability to still collect gas during a hellion driveby into your natural, and having it unscouted for longer.
If you are going to take that gas around that time, be sure to actually do something with the gas. You were up at around 200-300 before you actually did something with it and spend it all at the same time. With a gas that early, you could take an evolution chamber in your natural while speed was building and have enough time to squeeze in a carapace upgrade a good 20 seconds earlier than you did. When taking an early gas, I tend to go lair after the first upgrade, since the lair will be done quick enough in relation to a late gas build, and you can increase the timing window where Zerglings and Roaches are more effective. With a late gas, I don't find that a similar extended timing window to be worth rushing for, so I go lair before upgrade. When facing an air build like you, I tend to get lair after the first queen in the main. Because that still gives you time to get a nice queen force out for fending off Banshees, and in the case of a 2 port banshee noob you need sporecrawlers to defend anyway.
Against mech or a Hellion opening, I tend to put the Roach warren straight at the entrance of my natural to make the choke tinier and to actually alert the terran 'Hey, I have roaches now, no mass hellion barbeque here'. It's one of the least used tech in ZvT anyway ( aside from the early game and midgame ) so losing it isn't such a terrible loss and it helps a lot against Hellions.
The biggest selling point of mech are it's smooth timings. The early hellions defend against any zergling-baneling agression. Even if the Zerg has gone for a mass Roach investment terran tends to have enough Thors out to defend the third, and the Thors tend to line up with the first Mutalisks as well, allowing the terran to skimp on Marines and missile turrets until the Thors have spawned. This is one of the biggest area's to exploit, because Mech's air defense tends to be terrible until it really get's going. But when the air defense has finally become advanced enough, even Broodlords die to mass Thors.
One of my latest revelations against Mech has been exploiting that abysmal air defence window, with Overseers. Now I know what you're thinking, 'Overseers? You might as well suggest nydus worms', but hear me out. Contaminate doesn't take too long to collect, and an Overseer is 50 minerals and 50 gas a piece. If you get like 4 or 5 overseers after a reasonable lair, four contaminates will be done quite quickly. That same gas could have been spent on 8 extra Roaches, but you have extra gas if you don't want to overcommit on Roaches. This investment will give you an almost guarranteed few contaminates off on the factories with techlabs, delaying the thor count. Mech skimps on air defense a LOT in those early stages, so they can't stop four Overseers. Delaying those thors for 30 seconds gives the terran an enormous delay.
Not only do they have to invest in air other than Thors ( they don't do jack against Overseers, they can fly back in with enough energy for another nigh-game ending contaminate ), but his thorcount is lowered immensely. The terran won't be able to deal with a mass roach attack on his third and you will take it out, or if he went for a 2 base all in, that is now delayed by a huge amount, allowing you to get a huge amount of extra roaches out, making the 2 base mech all in push the easiest thing to hold.
I will upload two recent replays shortly, but I don't want you to look in detail at the terrans mechanics but rather at the delay that terran endures and compare the amount of anti air available around that time in your mech replays as well. You'd be surprised how much it helps.
Edit:
http://drop.sc/227151
http://drop.sc/227152
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Belial, after watching the replay I have to wonder, why the gas in the natural as the first gas? You're losing mining time just by transfering drones over to the natural, and then to the gas. Instead of just sending them after they deliver minerals straight into the gas. On top of having the ability to still collect gas during a hellion driveby into your natural, and having it unscouted for longer.
I drone pair the first 16 drones in the main, that's why I make the gas at the natural. You lose mining time either way, maynarding or rallying, but you have to do it one way or another to even out worker saturation between bases. I prefer to mineral pair the first 16, and keep that optimization and rally the rest, instead of maynarding. Maynarding also results in a bigger hit up front, which in the early game, is a lot. DRG also does not maynard, but instead rallies, as do I think every pro zerg I've watched so far, because you would rather have the money up front in the early game so you can pump out workers early, you know, the whole exponential growth, the more drones you can get earlier the better. I think maynarding should only be done if your expo is late, like in the case of pylon blocks. I suppose I should maynard to my third, but by then I have so much larva I think it's better to rally just a ton of drones to the third all at once.
Just preference. Terran can't tell if it's my 1st or 2nd gas anyways. I probably should have removed from gas after speed, but given that Terran was doing some sort of 1 base opening, I was more worried about possibly needing a baneling nest or gas in short notice. In the future though, I'll be sure to at least remove 2 drones from gas in such situations though. I don't really agree with just-get-lair with excess gas since you still need the minerals, but I'll take that as a note that I should remove from gas even against 1 base play, and just leave 1 drone in, in case I need gas asap for banes, etc.
I'll check out your reps about mass overseer vs mech. Thanks.
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On July 25 2012 02:24 Leetgam3r wrote:
'30min no rush' to and cry that terran has imba deathball
User was warned for this post
This guy actually has it. Instead of crying that "terran deathball > zerg deathball" you might want to actually analyze your own replay first.
I watched the replay against "lambris", here's my thoughts:
Going into the 15-minute mark you're at 174 supply with 2k minerals in the bank vs. terrans 126 supply. What happens at this point? Terran moves out to take his 3rd in the open with a measly 3 thor + 5 tank force with a whopping 4 hellions to complement it. Yes, and 3 banshees. His natural is open bare with 1 marine defending it.
You could easily put pressure and wear down his army, runby into his natural or main with mass ling / roach or whatever, but you seem content on giving him a free base while making another 5 drones, putting you at 90 drones in total.
At 19:00, he floats a CC to his 4th with no defence whatsoever, but you dont even attempt to deny it so he's fine.
For some reason, you decided to go heavy on infestors which really arent that great imo against mech, but whatever, you attack into his strongest positions (tank line with planetary fortresses) a couple of times before you ultimately max out on a force of BLs and corruptors which he has spent the last 10 minutes building up to defeat with a huge army of vikings and ravens. Tip: vikings and ravens are absolutely horrible against lings, roaches and ultras.
At 30:00 + the game is over.
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Where did I cry about anything? I simply said I have trouble beating this. Maybe we should just berate anyone who posts a [H] thread, stupid idiots, how dumb are we for not having experience at a high level against every type of strategy.
Tip: vikings and ravens are absolutely horrible against lings, roaches and ultras.
Right, but did you not see the mass tanks and PFs? Tip: ligsn, roaches, and ultras are bad against that many siege tanks with PFs, on a map like Shakuras.
So I rewatched it with your advice in mind. I think you have a good point - if Terran opened a 1 base all-in, especially if they follow it up with banshees, I should just max out on roach drops, fuck taking a third or infestation pit or hive or even upgrades, and just 200/200 roach max kill him. But if terran hadn't been so far behind like that, I don't think that would work, and I'm still left wondering how to beat a terran who plays like this.
But okay, onto this game - At 15:00, because I was teching up, I only had 13 roaches. What pressure could I have done? I went for the macro game, thinkign I'd have broodlords or ultras or whatever way before he did. And that's why I lose the game? Because I decided not to all-in him?
So maybe on maps like Shakuras, I should do that more often, because of the air deathball possibility (like the days of mass siege tanks into mass ghosts win)? I don't understand.
Thanks for your advice though, i think i understand how I could have won this game - if terran opened 1 base, fuck him up, close the game, ezpz. But for future reference, what do I do? I mean look where he's at at 17:00 - if he opened a very safe, simply, macro oriented opening, where he's at at 17:00 would be what he would have been at 15:00. At 15:00 I had only 13 roaches, but if I had gone for a roach max instead of teching up and taking a fourth, that still won't break that many siege tanks, and it'd just be a weak all-in that may or may not work and the game still ends up where it ended up this time.
I get that the guy was weak, but I specifically chose the macro route because of that. Like what many pros do, if you get ahead in the early game, just play the most standard game possible for the duration because you have such a huge lead, right? I guess against mech and turtle play, I won't do that anymore, but I don't think I was wrong in thinking to play a macro game. What, do you just autolose against mech or skyterran if the game goes past 15:00?
As for his fourth, it had a PF with SCVs. That's fine, yea, I could have killed it, but then my army is trapped in a corner, in a choke, against 15+ siege tanks and PFs and thors and 3 banshees...
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EPT
