Mass lings (~20) shut this down consistently unfortunatly although I'm not done testing.
I experimented with it abit towards GM opponents with some success. It is not bad, I'll give you that and it is a strategy that you can pull out in a bo5 to have the element of surprise. This build is good on a map like Shakuras but shakuras is barely played in tourney mappools anymore as it is. 20 speedlings along with decent queen control will not allow you to deal any damage in most games. However, if he is caught totally offguard, the potential is immense.
You know, I was really excited about this because I saw alot of potential in it. I will keep testing it over the coming week and I'll be able to provide a more detailed description of its faults and favours.
On July 14 2012 18:39 vBr wrote: Mass lings (~20) shut this down consistently unfortunatly although I'm not done testing.
I experimented with it abit towards GM opponents with some success. It is not bad, I'll give you that and it is a strategy that you can pull out in a bo5 to have the element of surprise. This build is good on a map like Shakuras but shakuras is barely played in tourney mappools anymore as it is. 20 speedlings along with decent queen control will not allow you to deal any damage in most games. However, if he is caught totally offguard, the potential is immense.
You know, I was really excited about this because I saw alot of potential in it. I will keep testing it over the coming week and I'll be able to provide a more detailed description of its faults and favours.
Thanks for the input! Shakuras is the best map for sure. The mass lings is what I lost to today; but I think it was more due to army positioning in the late game (didn't have any tanks on high ground :S). I am trying to think of a nice transition to punish the ling play, but zerg can kind of tech into anything because it doesn't constrain their gas (other than double upgrades... which will be good for everything except muta anyways). Let me know, because I feel like this is harder to deal with than mass roach at the moment.
Wish I was higher than gold so i could try this build out I really love bio play and long wanted to use the reapers into the play. But im still learning the mechanics and working on my constant SCV production. But i will keep this in mind so I can try it out when i become a more skilled play. One more reason to climb the later! Also nice detailed build, I really like it.
On July 14 2012 18:39 vBr wrote: Mass lings (~20) shut this down consistently unfortunatly although I'm not done testing.
I experimented with it abit towards GM opponents with some success. It is not bad, I'll give you that and it is a strategy that you can pull out in a bo5 to have the element of surprise. This build is good on a map like Shakuras but shakuras is barely played in tourney mappools anymore as it is. 20 speedlings along with decent queen control will not allow you to deal any damage in most games. However, if he is caught totally offguard, the potential is immense.
You know, I was really excited about this because I saw alot of potential in it. I will keep testing it over the coming week and I'll be able to provide a more detailed description of its faults and favours.
Thanks for the input! Shakuras is the best map for sure. The mass lings is what I lost to today; but I think it was more due to army positioning in the late game (didn't have any tanks on high ground :S). I am trying to think of a nice transition to punish the ling play, but zerg can kind of tech into anything because it doesn't constrain their gas (other than double upgrades... which will be good for everything except muta anyways). Let me know, because I feel like this is harder to deal with than mass roach at the moment.
Have you tried going Blue-Flame Hellions? Using them in the mid-late game like with Marauder/Hellion timings can actually work pretty well as long as you don't let them get fungalled and surrounded or hit by Banelings.
MMA also uses Marine/Marauder/Hellion/Medivac in this VOD:
Edit: Some facts about going Hellions instead of more Marines:
Getting a Reactor Factory costs 200 Minerals less and 50 Gas more than two Reactor Barracks.
If you go Hellions, remember to get +1 Vehicle Weapons once the Zerg gets +3 armor, as Zerglings take 3 shots to die to a BFH if it's a +0 Hellion against a +3 Zergling. In the meantime you can get armor upgrades which are also effective if you go Thors in the late-game to give you power in direct engagements against Broodlords and Ultralisks, as well as for a gas-dump if you don't want to get Ravens.
On July 14 2012 20:41 Thune wrote: i do this build a lot when i offrace as terran since about a year ... also here the original version from stalife (now steak): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMaZQ4RwB9k from Feb. 2011 (obviously with different buildorder due to other metagame/patch but the basic idea is the same)
It will allow you to force zerg into their old habits of getting a roach den or a sizable amount of zerglings into a giant muta ball, but this will be figured out extremely quickly. Yes, the zerg has to invest resources into defense and lose map control for about 3 or 4 minutes, but it's nothing he can't get back later.
No matter what you do, there is always going to be that giant period of time where you don't actually have enough units to defend a traditional muta/ling/baneling attack. Not to mention that you're just as vulnerable defensively as he is while you're harassing with the reaper/medivac.
The position will be reversed in the later part of the mid game with a small muta ball, and your next push is do-or-die and your 3rd will be pretty difficult to secure. It's all a matter of how long are you able to delay that with your reapers. And the reality of how long you actually have to delay his 3rd by is at least 3 minutes, which is shorter than the time it takes to build 7 mutalisks. 400/400 resources for less than 3 minutes.
Plus, there's always a chance you have to face a zerg who can also multitask 2 squads of zerglings; 1 following your medivac and 1 stalling your expansion.
Well i'm only in Gold, trying to get back into platinum but i've been giving this build a try. Even in the mid leagues Terran are having massive problems with Zerg so I welcome anything interesting that can change the play a bit.
I actually had some success with only my 2nd time trying it against a Plat Zerg. The first time was on Ohana against a zerg that wasn't being that greedy and had plenty of lings out for map control so I wasn't able to do much damage. The second game was on Antiga, which provided a lot better access into the main and third. My follow up bio force was also a lot stronger (still need to work on floating less money right now).
Here's a replay of it working for me, but the Zerg seemed to be going regular ling/bling/muta rather than ling/festor/ultra that i've been seeing lately.
Anyway, love the build, I always enjoy something different and fun even if the micro requirement is high. This seems like it might be effective in a number of cases so i'll keep at it.
On July 14 2012 19:30 Onionkebab wrote: Wish I was higher than gold so i could try this build out I really love bio play and long wanted to use the reapers into the play. But im still learning the mechanics and working on my constant SCV production. But i will keep this in mind so I can try it out when i become a more skilled play. One more reason to climb the later! Also nice detailed build, I really like it.
Just wanted to say that's an awesome attitude dude. Best of luck.
Low diamond here. I've been struggling a LOT versus zerg last week when I got back to practising. I was frustrated and angry after getting baneling busted / outmacroed all the time.
My mechanics are sloppy and I am aware that my micro is much worse than my macro. However, I decided to give this build a spin, and hot damn, it's pretty awesome.
First game, I held a baneling bust on Antiga. Opponent followed with another wave of lings and morphed them into blings on my natural mineral line. A week ago I would have lost due to my fast expansion (I believe the reason for the bust was that he scouted my bunker). I always built my CC at natural, but now I build it in the main and it makes life a lot easier. Noticing the constant stream of lings, I just made more reapers. 10 speedreapers against 8 slow banelings isn't actually fair at all.
Second game on Ohana. I play simcity till I have 10 or so reapers and proceed to attack his third. I see ling-bling, no speed. I was able to force him into roaches and started pumping out marauders. I added rax in my base and pumped out a nice bio ball. All this time the reapers were delaying my opponents tech. He got his infestors out, but because they did not have that much energy, my marauder-heavy ball was able to basetrade against his mutas. After the game I knew for sure, that with better mechanics I would have crushed my opponent.
I don't believe that you have to be Masters to use this build. I believe that practice on all levels is important! That's why I'm going to use this build to turn myself into a multitasking monster beast Thanks my mammal friend from outer space!
awesome strategy. I'm a zerg player and I haven't played anything like this yet.
I think the way to handle this would be:
- make a queen or two extra. You already have 4 queens to actively spread creep. Make one or two extra resulting in a total of 8 queens. You don't need millions of creep tumours anyway so you'll have sick amounts of transfuse and with 8 queens you can practically have 2-3 per base.
- Use your lings to absorb damage while the queens target the medivac.
- If necessary make 4 roaches or something to help you take third.
I never make a roach warren in tvz unless I have a reason so I'll have to scout this build really quickly.
Nevertheless great guide and looks amazingly fun ! Let's hope this gets some attention in higher level play!
Hey love the build its very innovative i too dont use any cookie cutter builds and have some of my own meta game tvz builds that are very successful on ladder. since your at the point of trying to optimize the build i thought id add some input that would help a bit. i noticed that you had enough minerals and gas to make a reactor on your factory right when your starports start. you can swap them once its done and you had enough for a viking and a medivac once the starport finished. itd get you viking out much faster and help with denying overlords quicker. :D hope this helps gl with the build ima add this one to my arsenal.
On July 19 2012 03:03 wcr.4fun wrote: You don't need millions of creep tumours anyway so you'll have sick amounts of transfuse and with 8 queens you can practically have 2-3 per base.
Saw in a replay that 5 reapers with a medivac handled 2-3 queens reasonably well in direct engagements and with the amount of greed zergs like to get away with these days this could be powerful. If not, you've just provided a prime example of what a guide should look like. Good stuff!
I am currently platinum ( in 2011 i was master but haven't played for so long time meh... ) and i did some experiment about opening it seems terran could simply FE before rax and then go for 3 rax reaper + tech but needs 3 gas instead of 2
9 depot 14 or 15 CC 15 or 16 rax#1 18 depot#2, gas#1 19 double OC, bunker
You can make 1 marine then tech lab, or just without marine.. I am not sure about this. tech lab --> gas#2, #3 --> rax#2 --> factory --> rax#3 factory --> starport + reactor ==> viking + medivac
Example replay ( i lost all reapers to baneling because of my stupid mistake, but killed zerg's 3rd ) http://drop.sc/225692
Some further transition i could think of: after medivac and at least 4 reapers, if you scout aggressive roach, stop gathering from ALL gas and produce marauders from 3 rax, make alot bunkers to defend
I'm a zerg and i have to say this is a pretty good strat.
Even with the ling stuff you've been talking about lately, it is still going to at the very least pay for itself with the medivac. Hellions eventually came down that all you did was kill creep tumors. So what is wrong if that is all you did with reapers? At the very least this will put a lot of pressure on the zerg in the ways that terrans have been complaining that they simply can not do with hellions.
I don't think you said anything about the OC energy and how to spend it. But i would advise trying to scan the main of the zerg if you can to see what he is going.
And ultimately i think it will come down to what reapers did back before the speed got put to factory tech, Speedlings and queens to hold it off. I think a lot of people will add in roaches and i think that is okay because there were several roach defense/pressure builds into a fastish third that came around with the whole hellion play (Before the queen buff). I don't mind putting 100-200 gas into roaches. I'll probably get about 2 less queens in this instance though, because i'm not sure a zerg can afford it. And then fast tech into infestors, maybe get a baneling nest just to be safe from a sudden pure bio switch. Then continue the current tech path to hive.
But since reapers do poorly vs roaches, i'm curious if you would be willing to say if they go all in to counter with your reapers and try to stop his reinforcing waves with the reapers and the medivac? (While trying to use the marauder/mass bunker defense to stay alive?) Though i'm pretty sure this completely depends on when they finally decide to go all in.
You also commented about blind all ins that it has an issue holding, But tbh it is the same issue with hellions vs those all ins. So that shouldn't be to big of a problem.
But all in all i really like the look of this build. Reapers are an underused unit imo, They do almost the exact same thing that hellions can do except that hellions have a bigger pure slaying power vs zerglings. But with the loss of that mass ling killing you get some extreme mobility to hit everywhere. (Especially on shakuras and antiga lol) Which can be very hard to deal with. But ultimately does exactly what you say, it FORCES the zerg to make units instead of drones because the queens simply will not be fast enough t-t
Although i am also curious about what time do you transition out of this? (That is the only other flaw i see, Where the hellion opener is a quick a few hellions, transition into bio or w/e. This feels a bit longer in the whole lets pump out 8-11 reapers. If it is to late then this build probably isn't viable. Especially if every terran starts to do this and every zerg starts to play against it. (But to be honest. if the transition out isn't to late vs a perfect defense + tech of a zerg, Which WILL happen eventually. then this build is VERY viable and imo has the potential to change the current standard strategy in TvZ lol)
(And just fyi. i didn't watch any of the replays as it is 2 AM and i'm tired xD I'll watch them tomorrow.)
EPT
I really love bio play and long wanted to use the reapers into the play. But im still learning the mechanics and working on my constant SCV production. But i will keep this in mind so I can try it out when i become a more skilled play.
