Notes: -I have marked this as a WIP (Work In Progress). I will be adding to it, and refining it over time. -My replay collection will be expanded upon. I will continue to improve as a player and expand upon the foundation I have established here. Obviously I could have spent the time making this guide harvesting more replays, and I didn't save many games that I played prior to creating this. Right now I have included 4 replays.
Intro: Hi everyone. I am a humble NA Masters Terran that has been working on a new build in response to the queen range increase, and how that patch change limited the ability for Terran to harass in the early/mid game. I do not view myself as a good player, and would love for others with superior execution to experiment with my creation, and aid me in its development. It is relevant that my career is based on software / game design; I wish to improve my skill-set in regards to community involvement and the articulation of strategy (so any feedback on such would be very useful).
Document Objectives: -Expand upon the array of openers in TvZ -Convey my opener to other Terran players such that they may experiment with it, and potentially contribute towards its evolution. -Personally develop and experiment with the articulation of strategy, and its revision (based on feedback)
Commonly Perceived Issues With TvZ: Some problems that many state are associated with the current state of TvZ include: -Hard to punish greedy zerg openers, which often include early 3rd, or mass droning on the back of a handful of queens. -Difficulty constraining the Zerg’s economy, such that after typical mid/late game engagements, the zerg will lack the capacity to re-supply with an army composition likely to be cost effective against the more rigid production style of Terran. -Hard to establish tactical scenarios which are not heavily dependent on one or two binary conditions.
Ideal Strategic Objectives: -Force zerg to produce combat units -Deny zerg expansions beyond their natural; which pertains to the next objective. -Force zerg to commit heavily into a tech route or aggression before they have established their 5th/6th gas extractors.
Tactical Solution: -A fast, aggressive force, capable of inducing multitask-based scenarios; complemented with the threat of crippling economic damage, and the ability quickly to destroy/deny structures.
Implementation: -The objectives are satisfied by a reaper/medivac composition, off the back of a reasonably early expansion. This composition facilitates various threats for the Zerg player, and can out-right secure a victory. However, as this guide will illustrate; the overarching game plan for the Terran player is extensive and facilitates safe reactions to various Zerg play-styles.
Execution: -I would not recommend trying to execute this build unless you are of strong mechanics or at least master level. I am a mid-masters player and regularly make fundamental mistakes when trying to optimize this opener; that is why the replay count is low at this point (I will be adding replays as time continues).
Build Order
Here is how the build looks in my brain:
*Get 15 gas right before you start Orbital / Rax finishes
Natural Language Walk-through: Here is a general description of the build. It will be followed up with the standard list format, and some other hopefully helpful graphics.
10 Depot 12 Rax 15 Gas*/Orbital/Marine (make 2) 2nd depot Tech Lab (Reapers When Finished) + 2nd Gas CC on High Ground Factory (Nitro When Finished) 3rd depot 2 more Rax (Tech Lab + Reapers When Finished) Starport (Medivac->Viking When Finished) 3rd CC 2 more Rax 2 Engineering bays 3rd/4th Gas (at natural)
*Get 15 gas right before you start Orbital / Rax finishes
Opening/Early Game: Initial depot and barracks timings are standard. Scout with the scv that finishes the depot. I like to wall at the main ramp, if techlab placement permits it. The first refinery is added right before you start the orbital; you also add the 2nd depot after the gas and orbital. Produce two marines from the barracks, before adding a techlab and the second refinery. Start your first reaper and another Command Center on the high ground. It is not possible to survive really early Zerg all-ins from the low-ground, unless they control terribly (ie: worse than a-move). The first reaper can generally be used to scout out some gas timings and pick off a drone or two (maybe even a creep tumor!). SCV scouting info: -If Zerg has no gas, or a very late pool (later than usual after a hatch first), feel free to map control a little bit with your two initial marines. I like to try and find an overlord, or unite them with the scouting scv such that a few slow lings may be picked off. This also has to potential to distract the Zerg player while your initial reaper scouts his main and perhaps kills some drones. -If Zerg has a pool before hatch, you should leave your scv around to try and determine if he is doing something ridiculous on 1 base, or infact adding the expansion. Against early pools, the ability for reaper to safely be out on the map, is dependent on the map (will be discussed later). If no expansion is going up, you might want to start a bunker on the high ground. If Zerg steals your gas: + Show Spoiler +
You can't continue with this build. But it will occur before you start the techlab (unless your marines are smoking a joint in the corner). When my gas is stolen, I just make marines constantly and start a CC. It turns out that with this gas timing, you will have 100 gas right after you start the production of your CC, and will then be able to add a factory. I like to do a blue flame drop if such a gas steal occurs. Your marines will be able to kill the extractor before you require the second gas. Just make sure if you are killing the extractor that you don't build the CC on the low ground, or else you risk it being denied by lings. Here is an FPVOD of the blue flame drop I do when gas stolen+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.twitch.tv/spacewhales/b/323599031
(there is no gas steal in this game, but it is the same build and matchup; only change is your marines would not be out on the map like mine are, and the CC would be started on the high ground ).
Early/Mid Game Due to the relatively fast second gas, you will be starting the construction of a factory before the second reaper (reaper production is continuous, you aren't cutting unit production to get the factory). After the factory has been started, add another depot before throwing down two more rax (they will also have techlabs and produce a couple of reapers). When the factory is complete, start the nitro pack and your starport. You can fly the second orbital command to the natural if, when you are move out with the reaper/medivac force, you are not being attacked (ie: before applying pressure).
Do note that at all times you will have the capacity to produce marauders. An early roach based attack will not break the ramp to you main, but you will likely require a bunker and some repair.
Once again, the high ground, a bunker, and a few marauders will be your friends. Ensure that you are engaging reapers with lings, and not taking shots from the roaches on anything that can't be repaired.
This is the strongest zerg response to reaper based builds. Because your factory and starport will not require addons (for a while), you can use them to wall yourself in on the high ground. The key to survival is to identify the incoming ling force, and abuse high ground to bounce around pecking away at the ling force (or morphing banelings) with the reaper count that you currently posses. It is also important to do this while he is charging up your ramp; it will force him to control his lings more and give you the precious seconds needed to preserve SCVs or re-wall.
Once your medivac is ready, you should have 5 reapers, with the next under production. You can add another 3 reapers if you wish, I generally end up with 8-11. The medivac is key here because it will allow you to engage queens, and large groups of lings. As shown in the video; it is simple to pickup and leave if outnumbered. I wouldn't recommend engaging speedlings beyond a 1:2.5 reaper:ling ratio [1:2 if on creep!] (this is just a guess from experience, such a ratio could benefit from some substantial testing). Don't engage 3+ queens if they have enough for transfuses. Feel free to tank queen damage while you rain down on structures or creep. Before fungals or mutas; you are quite free to have full map control and threaten the zerg via drop or cliff-jump.
With the reaper force, aim to: -Deny hatcheries beyond the natural. -Control creep. -Pick off queens, lings, and static defense. -Destroy tech structures, and extractors. -Force the Zerg to commit their gas into the negation of the reapers, or a counter-attack, before the 3rd base is established. -Apply enough pressure to transition into a bio force and secure your own 3rd base (if not being all-in'd). -Scout what their transition is: --Lots of players will be forced into roach production. You must establish through scouting and harassment, if these roaches are for defense (4-6ish), or for counter aggression (typically 8+). If the zerg is being defensive, continue to pour on the pressure with MM drops, and fly out your 3rd CC. Aggressive roach play requires turtling behind some bunkers to resist. --Lair timing and the subsequential tech choice are crucial to how you will use your bio force.
Some "Units Lost" results, based on quality of execution:
Most of that section was about the usage of the reaper/medi squad; equally important is the macro base behind such aggression. Make a viking when the medivac is done. Shift-attack that shit around the drop paths and the edges of the map; this puts a lot of stress on the Zerg while you are harassing them, and clears the way for your bio transition to drop without being spotted! The viking is a fierce element in this opener, and I cannot stress the devastating damage it has caused in my experiences. When you are done making reapers (make marines, add a few marauders if there are banes/roaches/infestors), use your gas to get a reactor on the starport, and all the bio upgrades from your 3 techlabs (stim/shields/concussive). Note that the low mineral cost of reapers, and long build time facilitates a strong mineral bank, which you can allocate towards a 3rd CC, then two more barracks and double engineering bay. It is after I macro through this mineral-heavy phase, that I add the 3rd/4th gasses at my natural. Proceed to get double upgrades and some more medivacs from your reactor starport.
Responding to Zerg Midgame: If you are successful with the reaper force, it is likely that zerg has been unable to take a 3rd base without getting lair (and subsequent tech), or committing to some heavy aggression. This will likely result in Zerg doing one of the following things in order to secure a 3rd base: Roach/Baneling: + Show Spoiler +
The typical response from Zerg, in my experience, is to all-in once their 3rd has been repeatedly denied. This type of all in is very hard to stop without tanks, and I believe you will die if you don't make the 3rd CC in-base. Many bunkers are required (4-5) to stop this; spread them out at the entrance to your natural and allocate your marines to inhabit them, as marauders do OK outside. Hold tight here, and if your reapers are still alive, continue to do damage and prevent a 3rd. You can drop after you hold off the attack and it will be difficult for the low-tech Zerg to deal with. This applies to other ground-based aggression from zerg.
Fungal quickly shuts down the reaper force, but there is a multiple minute window before the Infestors pop, when you have the chance to do a lot of damage. Infestors will shit on the reaper force with 1 fungal, so keep it off creep and deny bases once infestors are out. Drop play is a solid follow up, and since you have been denying creep (right?) the Zerg player will have a hard time securing a 3rd and 4th whilst under drop pressure. Ghosts and/or tanks are good follow ups once you have your 3rd/4th gas running.
This is my favourite thing to see in response to my reaper play. Your engineering bays are in time to have turrets at each mineral line, and you can have a healthy marine count, and medivacs to help you secure your third. You can force the mutas off of you by continuing to be annoying with the reapers, viking, and dropping the side of the map where the mutas are not. If on 2 bases, your opponent made defensive roach before adding mutas, it is really hard for them to hold an SCV pull. This seems strange at first, but they didn't use any gas to get banelings, so without AOE your MMM/SCV force is not going to be stopped, if you hit right after the mutas spawn. I don't have any replays of the SCV pull during the new variation of the build, which the guide is conveying, but it works and I will be sure to add one when the time comes
Midgame/Lategame: As this is a guide for an opener, I will only speak of transitioning out of it. As previously mentioned, you will have some MMM with double upgrades to use for grabbing a 3rd base. I like to add 2 more factories for tanks, for a total of 5 barracks, 3 factories, and 1 starport. Because you have the 3 tech labs and all the bio upgrades already, you can use those for the tanks, and make a lot of reactors to compensate for the saturation of your third. Maruaders, ghosts, and vikings are readily available; reactive composition and solid macro will allow you to follow up the bio play with a strong 3 base push, which you can use to take the 4th and do whatever works for you.
Weaknesses/Negative Attributes: (These are the current drawbacks that I identify as associated with the opener.) + Show Spoiler +
-Your upgrades are late, as your early gas is all invested into the reaper and medivac force. -You can't build your natural CC on the low ground. -The units are fragile when not unified. -Blind Zerg all-ins can be hard to stop if the map is 4-player, and you scout them last.
Shakuras Plateau -Many high ground areas in the map allow for constant reaper presence (even before the medivac). Reapers are safe here and very useful. -The wide areas around the main make it difficult to zone out drop play. -The natural is also on raised ground, providing more opportunities to harass the extractors.
Cloud Kingdom -Wide access into main, and easy escape to the natural or third. -High ground in middle allows reapers to safely guard and control towers.
Condemned Ridge -Wide access to natural. -Very long rush distance is bad for roach attacks. -Nice high ground behind 3rd acts as safe haven.
Ohana -Seems hard to get into the main, or the natural mineral line. -I have it veto'd so I haven't tried it yet.
Tal'darim Altar -Large ledges to main and natural. -Reapers can kill your rocks quickly to secure the 3rd base. -Hard to hold off zerg all-ins without a ramp. -I have it veto'd so I haven't tried it lately.
Daybreak -Nothing is exposed to reapers. -Very small gap to enter main. -I have it veto'd, and I hate it in every matchup, so I won't be trying it anytime soon.
Replays: Disclaimer: I am bad and fuck up a lot. This is not a "look how sick I am at this game" thread: I think better players could do a lot more with this build than I do.
Here is a new replay where the reapers are shut down, and the Zerg is allowed to take a 3rd. Keep in mind that the investment required for him to hold off the reapers results in us having similar drone counts. I think he is a slow player so I am not sure if there is a chance to be busted at the front when the muta pop (with ling/bling/muta). My marine count was a bit lower than what seems safe so I think I need to either make some hellions or keep the reapers alive. I think I tried to start siege when I didn't have enough money or something because it didn't upgrade and I almost cried when I pushed the northern 4th haha. http://drop.sc/248079 PS: Map is Cloud Kingdom
***3 New Replays! (August 20th, 2012)*** Here is the opener being executed best yet (I think I make everything in the correct order this time; the tank transition might be where the macro deviates; was dropping a lot and didn't swap add-ons or anything. PS: There is BM, I play best when I am super angry and I was super super angry (you see APM is higher though than usual!). http://drop.sc/241472
Another Shakuras example: Used landed viking and a couple reapers to deny the 3rd while I assaulted the main with the main squad. Mutas transition was dealt with and the advantage I carry into the midgame is enough to hold the center towers. I stumble the macro a little bit and have a sloppy section after 3-4 bases, but I am still adjusting to the lategame with the build, as many zerg just die straight up to it. http://drop.sc/241473
Here is a good example for when your gas is stolen! Everything was really really good this game, but I didn't transfer workers from my main to my 3rd so I mined a lot less than I should have. I feel like if I realized the 3rd wasn't saturated this would have been even more devastating. Wow, why the fuck didn't I transfer those workers? Arghhhhhhhhhh! http://drop.sc/241474
Here is a replay where the reapers deny his 3rd; this results in him floating a lot of minerals in the midgame... but I'm not too sure what to say about his subsequent macro. This purpose of this replay is to show to opener, and how it facilitates the transition into a macro game. (Playing on KimboSlice's account) http://drop.sc/219039
I am kind of embarrassed to include this replay; but it really shows the cost effectiveness of the opener. I am in excellent shape after the reaper harass and initial drops... but I feel that the bong tokes started to kick in during the midgame. Terrible mistakes: -Lost 3rd without lifting... oops! -Floated 2k... made a billion rax and extra CC to spend it. -Turns out the SCVs were walled out of my base... so I didn't spend it and go up to like 4k minerals. Master league shit right here... its OK though; you will see I was so far ahead that it didn't really matter. (Playing on KimboSlice's account) http://drop.sc/219040
In this replay, the zerg does a very strange opener where I think he might be attacking me off of 1 base. I bunker up and transition into a normal game when I identify his intentions to macro. To be honest his build is strange; but you can still see more reaper action. (Playing on KimboSlice's account) http://drop.sc/219041
Here is a replay where I play poorly in the initial stages; losing an scv and 2 marines. I take a risk and make my CC on the low ground, as well as cut the 3rd depot to catch up a bit (my units died so I won't get supply blocked). I am able to keep his 3rd denied, but I am sloppy and lose the reapers. He counters with lings and shit kind of goes crazy. If you like a crazy scrappy style where it seems like both players are awful because they are pushing eachother outside of comfort zones, this is what occurs here. I'll probably remove this one once I have some better examples of me playing on my account. http://drop.sc/219048
More to come! I am improving and will present the build with less mistakes as time goes on. I guess I could have played a bunch more games instead of making this guide but I really wanted to make a foundation that I could expand upon and add to .
Send me your replays to be placed here
Closing remarks: -I have marked this as a WIP (Work In Progress). I will be adding to it, and refining it over time. -My replay collection will be expanded upon. I will continue to improve as a player and expand upon the foundation I have established here. -Please let me know if you try this build and how it goes from you. I have no problems with it being proven not viable. -If you want to know more about Space Whales, check out my tournament + Show Spoiler +
I will try this out when I am at home Sounds really good and I like your Pictures even when they are a bit to "colourful"
The Video is funny too
Edit: Can you maybe explain what you do with your minerals ? I always float 1000 minerals because my rax finished producing reapers and my barracks are building reactors and I am only gas starved.
I will try this out when I am at home Sounds really good and I like your Pictures even when they are a bit to "colourful"
The Video is funny too
Do you think the colour makes them hard to comprehend? I am trying to find a nice place where I am conveying the logistics efficiently, and providing pleasurable aesthetics.
I'd like to see how this does against Stephano style Roach/Ling defenses. It seems to me this relies too much on zerg either all-inning or making a bad unit composition. Queens are always supposed to target fire the medivac as well, which it appears is just not happening at your level of play.
Thanks man, love the idea behind this and of course reaper + medivac is the funniest thing in the game!! I'm only plat so my mechanics and control are bad, but maybe even my zerg opponents are not so good as they are in master..so I'm gonna try this, very impressive stuff
On July 12 2012 17:36 oOOoOphidian wrote: I'd like to see how this does against Stephano style Roach/Ling defenses. It seems to me this relies too much on zerg either all-inning or making a bad unit composition. Queens are always supposed to target fire the medivac as well, which it appears is just not happening at your level of play.
Yeah, I agree medivacs should be subject of queen target fire. This is complemented by a ling force usually though; I recommend only engaging queens if there are not enough lings to distract the reapers (which in the current metagame, many Zergs are not making the ling force preemptively). My experience against defensive roach ling is against higher level players. It ends up OK if you can keep the creep in control, and deny the 3rd until your orbital is constructed.
These are the scenarios what have spawned in my experience, from defensive roach/ling: I have not really played zergs above the 1000 point mark this season. I have a goal to make top 8 this season so hopefully I will learn from some defeats soon.
-If not committing to muta or infestor, they often have to get speed roaches, to take their 3rd. The iterative denial of the 3rd is kind of what is forcing these all ins. If they bring enough units to the 3rd and defend, there is generally a bio drop or two about to land in their base (ideally) -This play though subjects itself to MMM/SCVs pushes though when the Zerg goes muta after roach/ling. This push is an easy win because no gas is around for banelings when the mutas are built. -I am waiting to encounter an opponent that can deflect the reapers and make infestors with their 3rd. It seems, in theory, like the best response.
I'll be sure to post a replay once I have one, about the interaction you are specifying. However, a large component in the reasoning for the creation of this guide is for stronger Terran players to give it a shot against some adequate Zerg opponents.
How did you make those Bo pictures? They are awesome andreally add some flair to the thread. The build is to multitaskish for me but I love what you try to do!
On July 12 2012 18:06 Toastie.NL wrote: How did you make those Bo pictures? They are awesome andreally add some flair to the thread. The build is to multitaskish for me but I love what you try to do!
Subscribed to this thread. The graphics and flow chart is absolutely stellar. I'll read the guide in detail later but this looks promising and thought out.
On July 12 2012 18:22 Chicken Chaser wrote: Subscribed to this thread. The graphics and flow chart is absolutely stellar. I'll read the guide in detail later but this looks promising and thought out.
Glad that you graced my thread with your 420th post! Was just sparking one for the GSL Ro8 tonight...
On July 12 2012 17:36 oOOoOphidian wrote: I'd like to see how this does against Stephano style Roach/Ling defenses. It seems to me this relies too much on zerg either all-inning or making a bad unit composition. Queens are always supposed to target fire the medivac as well, which it appears is just not happening at your level of play.
Yeah, I agree medivacs should be subject of queen target fire. This is complemented by a ling force usually though; I recommend only engaging queens if there are not enough lings to distract the reapers (which in the current metagame, many Zergs are not making the ling force preemptively). My experience against defensive roach ling is against higher level players. It ends up OK if you can keep the creep in control, and deny the 3rd until your orbital is constructed.
These are the scenarios what have spawned in my experience, from defensive roach/ling: I have not really played zergs above the 1000 point mark this season. I have a goal to make top 8 this season so hopefully I will learn from some defeats soon.
-If not committing to muta or infestor, they often have to get speed roaches, to take their 3rd. The iterative denial of the 3rd is kind of what is forcing these all ins. If they bring enough units to the 3rd and defend, there is generally a bio drop or two about to land in their base (ideally) -This play though subjects itself to MMM/SCVs pushes though when the Zerg goes muta after roach/ling. This push is an easy win because no gas is around for banelings when the mutas are built. -I am waiting to encounter an opponent that can deflect the reapers and make infestors with their 3rd. It seems, in theory, like the best response.
I'll be sure to post a replay once I have one, about the interaction you are specifying. However, a large component in the reasoning for the creation of this guide is for stronger Terran players to give it a shot against some adequate Zerg opponents.
Okay. Thanks for the response. I'll give it a shot (I also play Terran) soon and try to give some replays. I really think this will struggle most with that stephano style, but otherwise it seems really fun and powerful.
Though, I have a stupid question: what is the advantage of your reaper build vs a reasonnably fast marauder/hellion push ? I did not do a lot of experiment on that push but I would guess it comes a bit too late.
On July 12 2012 18:43 Arkard wrote: Awesome work man.
Though, I have a stupid question: what is the advantage of your reaper build vs a reasonnably fast marauder/hellion push ? I did not do a lot of experiment on that push but I would guess it comes a bit too late.
Out of subject: Animals as Leaders are sick
The marauder/hellion push can only attack the front. Also if the zerg makes enough units to kill it, there is no way to escape. I'm sure your push is also good at denying the 3rd base, or maybe outright killing the zerg; but I can also run into the main and kill some shit, and run away without doing damage. I guess I like to harass more than hit timings; these seem like essentially opposite play-styles, but with some similar goals.
I main P and don't understand TvZ well enough to say whether this is good build, but I wanted to compliment you on the quality of your OP. Looking at the graphic, I instantly understood the phases your build moves through and the timings it tries to hit. I'd love to see more build overviews in this style.
This is a really cool guide. It looks (and the one game I've tried it) is a lot of fun. Speed reaper medivac opening? What's not to like! Have you tried building your nat CC on the low ground btw? I always prefer to do that if possible and I feel that 2 marines and a bunker would hold it pretty well. Thoughts?
On July 12 2012 19:23 Sambobly wrote: This is a really cool guide. It looks (and the one game I've tried it) is a lot of fun. Speed reaper medivac opening? What's not to like! Have you tried building your nat CC on the low ground btw? I always prefer to do that if possible and I feel that 2 marines and a bunker would hold it pretty well. Thoughts?
Roaches can be in your face with enough lings to surround the bunker before you can wall off the entrance, unless you build some of the early structures on the low ground. Maybe that would be OK on a map/space location where the tech lab is facing inwards, or where the bunker can be placed to both effectively zone out units while simultaneously protecting the mineral line from run-by antics. I don't think constructing the CC on the high ground is overly punishing. You are in a weaker state when the reaper count is low, pre-medivac, and the additional rax are in construction: My experiences implicate that a full wall is required to survive an early onslaught.
A really good guide. It´s easy to follow and to understand and the graphics make the read very exciting.
However i don´t think i will use this build, because it´s very micro and multitask intensive, which i currently will not be able to pull of (high diamond - low master skillevel) You are basically not allowed to loose either your medivac or some repaers, because you will be left with nothing. The build itself sounds really cool and i hope i can see a pro doing it in some sort of tournement or cup. I haven´t watched the replays, but the intro video was already quite amazing.
I totally agree with you, your bio tech is really late. Have you thought about a transition into mech play? You can go up to 3 raxes and then transition into mech and use your raxes for scouting. I think the transition into mech would be faster than the transition into bio.
On July 12 2012 19:51 Sianos wrote: A really good guide. It´s easy to follow and to understand and the graphics make the read very exciting.
However i don´t think i will use this build, because it´s very micro and multitask intensive, which i currently will not be able to pull of (high diamond - low master skillevel) You are basically not allowed to loose either your medivac or some repaers, because you will be left with nothing. The build itself sounds really cool and i hope i can see a pro doing it in some sort of tournement or cup. I haven´t watched the replays, but the intro video was already quite amazing.
I totally agree with you, your bio tech is really late. Have you thought about a transition into mech play? You can go up to 3 raxes and then transition into mech and use your raxes for scouting. I think the transition into mech would be faster than the transition into bio.
Losing more than 1 or 2 reapers is really bad, but you could send them out with a new medivac if they were able to safely escape via ground/cliff.
Video >>> Replays
Mech transition would be a cool experiment; maybe for maps where dropping is worse.
Yea, been doing this build for a couple weeks now, it's very mobile and in your face at the same time. Somewhat like mutalisks in a way, only they can't shoot air. If you decide to go for a strat like this, you need to always be aware of your opponents tech. Fast roach/ling busts can deal sick damage if you're caught off-guard. Also not scouting the Spire can mess your base up big time, especially if he invests in heavy mutas and you're not prepared for mutas.
The really nice thing about this build though (other than being really mobile and in your face) is that it's really versatile. By putting pressure on with reapers, you can expand like a zerg and get up a ton of barracks. Mid-game, you can have as much as 5base with 20+rax (3/4 are tech lab), as you constantly keep denying the Zerg's 3rd and 4th and force them to make units.
The reapers D-8 bombs are the real damage dealer here. Focus and kill extractors when you can't delve too deep into the base. I preferably use this build on maps with a easy back entrance, most notably Shakuras. Really good build overall, and very versatile. You just need to keep the reapers alive, and once medis come out, they become insanely cost-efficient.
I love how well the medivacs and the reapers combo!
medivac outheals 1 queen, allowing you to kill queens, It allows a instant escape vs the only unit faster; the zergling, Reapers pwn both tumors, lings, spines and drones fast
Side note: You can get 15 gas, and expand before 2ed supply, and not get supply block, if you stay on 1 marine. thats abit more risky, but abit more greedier.
it kinda makes me think of HOTS reapers, but damn. It seems it's gonna be 2 base zerg untill the 10 minute mark again, which isn't so bad actually. The big thing is, that terran used to do this with units worth of 400 minerals and with 8 reapers + medivac it kinda hurts them too in a way. Which they can make up with good harass.
I kinda like it actually. Altough I do not want to play against it.
I think the OP should provide some failed replays. Now we are only looking at the bright side that this build works pretty well. But the thing is that as OP said himself, it doesn't work sometimes, so some failed replays can help people identify the problem and optimize the build even more.
First thing I've noticed - you probably don't want to scout with your first reaper (assuming this build gets popular). RIght now, this is the only TvZ build with a reaper opening and if zerg sees it he knows exactly what you are doing and can easily counter it.
In fact, this build is extremely dependent on not being scouted. You have to hide every single reaper you make and the three tech labbed racks. This is very hard to do, especially on maps like ohana or antiga.
On July 13 2012 04:31 larse wrote: I think the OP should provide some failed replays. Now we are only looking at the bright side that this build works pretty well. But the thing is that as OP said himself, it doesn't work sometimes, so some failed replays can help people identify the problem and optimize the build even more.
My only failures are from really dumb mistakes, thus far. An example would be leaving my depot wall lowered, or accidentally lifting off all of my CC's and somehow rallying them into the zerg base :S
On July 13 2012 04:31 larse wrote: I think the OP should provide some failed replays. Now we are only looking at the bright side that this build works pretty well. But the thing is that as OP said himself, it doesn't work sometimes, so some failed replays can help people identify the problem and optimize the build even more.
accidentally lifting off all of my CC's and somehow rallying them into the zerg base :S
On July 13 2012 10:26 Peleus wrote: Fun build but too gimmicky and easy to defend to be standard. It relies heavily on your opponent being retarded.
Solution for Zergs, scout it and make a few roaches. It's similar to dealing with BFH's.
Obivously, its not a standard build, but its a unique opening with a lot of fun.
However, you may call it a "gimmicky" opening and i do understand where your claims are coming from (reapers are uncommon), but if you go and try to compaire this to all of terran openings (Hellion drop, BF hellions drop, banshee, marine hellion stim pushes, hellion marauder pushes and etc) this kind of opening that the OP offered, by far looking more valuable due to great mobilty of this unique force and deadly DPS they are offering vs buildings and light units.
Every aggresive opening can be countered with X unit or spines/spores but the great thing about this opening is that its not easy to stop by zerg till mutas/fungels (defensive roaches will deny it positionley, but wont shut it down) and its basically so strong on denying zerg's 3rd, while u setting your 3rd on 7 min(!!)
As the OP mentioned reaper will allow you to have a great economy behind because they are so cheap on minerals and supply, and yet very aggresive. (For example, Hellions or maraudes will do the opposite, 2 supply and 100 minerals for each, try get a 3rd on 7 min with such expansive units)
w/o mentioning some great aspects as constant scouting information you get, good map control, and forcing APM, multitasking and pinning the zerg.
On July 13 2012 04:31 larse wrote: I think the OP should provide some failed replays. Now we are only looking at the bright side that this build works pretty well. But the thing is that as OP said himself, it doesn't work sometimes, so some failed replays can help people identify the problem and optimize the build even more.
My only failures are from really dumb mistakes, thus far. An example would be leaving my depot wall lowered, or accidentally lifting off all of my CC's and somehow rallying them into the zerg base :S
Hi,
It seems like you need about 1000 gas to be able to get medivac + 8 reapers + reaper speed, and reaper build time is long, I would assume that the timing for the 5 reaper + medivac (shortest) would be about 8:00 at the earliest?
Great guide, my only disappointment is that the guide title made me think this was a guide on how to summon a space whale to combat neural parasite on the space shark or something.
i dont think this will work on any map with a close third. like with the game on cloud kingdom he simply moved the queens over and you had to back off. maybe on like shakuras when the queen takes forever to walk over then yes it can deny the third and make the reapers worth the massive amount of gas you spent on it.. i dont think this can hold a 8 minute roach ling bane bust though.
On July 13 2012 12:47 Digamma wrote: i dont think this will work on any map with a close third. like with the game on cloud kingdom he simply moved the queens over and you had to back off. maybe on like shakuras when the queen takes forever to walk over then yes it can deny the third and make the reapers worth the massive amount of gas you spent on it.. i dont think this can hold a 8 minute roach ling bane bust though.
If you scout that, you can easily use your early starport to get out banshees for defense, though I agree if you try to do this build you'll probably straight up die if you don't react to a roach/baneling all-in.
I agree about the queens, but you may be able to harass in the main or natural if they do that.
On July 13 2012 12:47 Digamma wrote: i dont think this will work on any map with a close third. like with the game on cloud kingdom he simply moved the queens over and you had to back off. maybe on like shakuras when the queen takes forever to walk over then yes it can deny the third and make the reapers worth the massive amount of gas you spent on it.. i dont think this can hold a 8 minute roach ling bane bust though.
You can tank up to 3 queens while you target down a hatch, if your reaper count is 8+. Just cycle them in/out of medivac or pull-back micro. This is fine for cloud kingdom.
I feel the building attack is what nullifies spines in this situation: the healing in HotS (isnt speed removed too?) wont help goo much as it is out of combat only. Thus, hots nerfs this strat but buffs low reaper count strats
I played that strat a view times, yesterday! It is insane how fast 8 reapers kill a hatch. With the medivacs you can just ignore the queens and get all reapers out. Also reapers in a bunker are not too bad against roaches.
But don't attack 2 queens with transfuse...
Really like that reaper play, thanks for that guide!
You sir, are awesome, great guide, nice video/good editing, and most of all, Animals as Leaders, nice to hear some good music . Time to go make some reapers. thanks friend.
On July 14 2012 00:18 Spec wrote: Good lord you can load 6 reapers in a medivac...
8
this, I was like wtf, that's awesome...
time for some reaper drops for hatchery sniping and incorporting their epic deeps into my late game army
Most expensive thing to lose, like ever. 100/100, and 400/400 for reapers lol 500/500. That's a bruuuuuuuuuuutal loss. I'm a reaper guy in TvT, and losing a medvac with reapers makes my heart sink.
On July 14 2012 07:18 dohgg wrote: Defensive roaches..
You would need a lot of them to cover all angles of 3 bases, at least 3 per base at the very minimum if the Terran has bad control, but if he has good control you would need 4 or more, thus keeping the Zerg from getting 3 bases off of only queens, and the Terran still has map control.
I actually ran into some trouble vs a large pack of speedlings, and sufficient scouting to cut off attack paths into the zerg territory. I still won the game but it was due to outplaying the Zerg later on. This was on Cloud Kingdom; I was constantly forced to pick up and leave. I'll upload a replay later once I have a few more
Damn, that's a great and innovative idea! I never thought about that and i find it mind blowing that none of the progamers have thought about this, or play with it ! Great ideas sir !
On July 14 2012 17:35 WhalesFromSpace wrote: I actually ran into some trouble vs a large pack of speedlings, and sufficient scouting to cut off attack paths into the zerg territory. I still won the game but it was due to outplaying the Zerg later on. This was on Cloud Kingdom; I was constantly forced to pick up and leave. I'll upload a replay later once I have a few more
Yeah, this is true, but a zerg forced to make that many lings will not be happy with their economy. Most of the time they can just baneling all-in you from there, though, so forcing all those lings isn't the best when it can be so hard to hold.
This build would be great for Bo3 matches where your opponent is only good at doing 3 hatch gasless (or ice fisher) styles, though.
Mass lings (~20) shut this down consistently unfortunatly although I'm not done testing.
I experimented with it abit towards GM opponents with some success. It is not bad, I'll give you that and it is a strategy that you can pull out in a bo5 to have the element of surprise. This build is good on a map like Shakuras but shakuras is barely played in tourney mappools anymore as it is. 20 speedlings along with decent queen control will not allow you to deal any damage in most games. However, if he is caught totally offguard, the potential is immense.
You know, I was really excited about this because I saw alot of potential in it. I will keep testing it over the coming week and I'll be able to provide a more detailed description of its faults and favours.
On July 14 2012 18:39 vBr wrote: Mass lings (~20) shut this down consistently unfortunatly although I'm not done testing.
I experimented with it abit towards GM opponents with some success. It is not bad, I'll give you that and it is a strategy that you can pull out in a bo5 to have the element of surprise. This build is good on a map like Shakuras but shakuras is barely played in tourney mappools anymore as it is. 20 speedlings along with decent queen control will not allow you to deal any damage in most games. However, if he is caught totally offguard, the potential is immense.
You know, I was really excited about this because I saw alot of potential in it. I will keep testing it over the coming week and I'll be able to provide a more detailed description of its faults and favours.
Thanks for the input! Shakuras is the best map for sure. The mass lings is what I lost to today; but I think it was more due to army positioning in the late game (didn't have any tanks on high ground :S). I am trying to think of a nice transition to punish the ling play, but zerg can kind of tech into anything because it doesn't constrain their gas (other than double upgrades... which will be good for everything except muta anyways). Let me know, because I feel like this is harder to deal with than mass roach at the moment.
Wish I was higher than gold so i could try this build out I really love bio play and long wanted to use the reapers into the play. But im still learning the mechanics and working on my constant SCV production. But i will keep this in mind so I can try it out when i become a more skilled play. One more reason to climb the later! Also nice detailed build, I really like it.
On July 14 2012 18:39 vBr wrote: Mass lings (~20) shut this down consistently unfortunatly although I'm not done testing.
I experimented with it abit towards GM opponents with some success. It is not bad, I'll give you that and it is a strategy that you can pull out in a bo5 to have the element of surprise. This build is good on a map like Shakuras but shakuras is barely played in tourney mappools anymore as it is. 20 speedlings along with decent queen control will not allow you to deal any damage in most games. However, if he is caught totally offguard, the potential is immense.
You know, I was really excited about this because I saw alot of potential in it. I will keep testing it over the coming week and I'll be able to provide a more detailed description of its faults and favours.
Thanks for the input! Shakuras is the best map for sure. The mass lings is what I lost to today; but I think it was more due to army positioning in the late game (didn't have any tanks on high ground :S). I am trying to think of a nice transition to punish the ling play, but zerg can kind of tech into anything because it doesn't constrain their gas (other than double upgrades... which will be good for everything except muta anyways). Let me know, because I feel like this is harder to deal with than mass roach at the moment.
Have you tried going Blue-Flame Hellions? Using them in the mid-late game like with Marauder/Hellion timings can actually work pretty well as long as you don't let them get fungalled and surrounded or hit by Banelings.
MMA also uses Marine/Marauder/Hellion/Medivac in this VOD:
Edit: Some facts about going Hellions instead of more Marines:
Getting a Reactor Factory costs 200 Minerals less and 50 Gas more than two Reactor Barracks.
If you go Hellions, remember to get +1 Vehicle Weapons once the Zerg gets +3 armor, as Zerglings take 3 shots to die to a BFH if it's a +0 Hellion against a +3 Zergling. In the meantime you can get armor upgrades which are also effective if you go Thors in the late-game to give you power in direct engagements against Broodlords and Ultralisks, as well as for a gas-dump if you don't want to get Ravens.
On July 14 2012 20:41 Thune wrote: i do this build a lot when i offrace as terran since about a year ... also here the original version from stalife (now steak): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMaZQ4RwB9k from Feb. 2011 (obviously with different buildorder due to other metagame/patch but the basic idea is the same)
It will allow you to force zerg into their old habits of getting a roach den or a sizable amount of zerglings into a giant muta ball, but this will be figured out extremely quickly. Yes, the zerg has to invest resources into defense and lose map control for about 3 or 4 minutes, but it's nothing he can't get back later.
No matter what you do, there is always going to be that giant period of time where you don't actually have enough units to defend a traditional muta/ling/baneling attack. Not to mention that you're just as vulnerable defensively as he is while you're harassing with the reaper/medivac.
The position will be reversed in the later part of the mid game with a small muta ball, and your next push is do-or-die and your 3rd will be pretty difficult to secure. It's all a matter of how long are you able to delay that with your reapers. And the reality of how long you actually have to delay his 3rd by is at least 3 minutes, which is shorter than the time it takes to build 7 mutalisks. 400/400 resources for less than 3 minutes.
Plus, there's always a chance you have to face a zerg who can also multitask 2 squads of zerglings; 1 following your medivac and 1 stalling your expansion.
Well i'm only in Gold, trying to get back into platinum but i've been giving this build a try. Even in the mid leagues Terran are having massive problems with Zerg so I welcome anything interesting that can change the play a bit.
I actually had some success with only my 2nd time trying it against a Plat Zerg. The first time was on Ohana against a zerg that wasn't being that greedy and had plenty of lings out for map control so I wasn't able to do much damage. The second game was on Antiga, which provided a lot better access into the main and third. My follow up bio force was also a lot stronger (still need to work on floating less money right now).
Here's a replay of it working for me, but the Zerg seemed to be going regular ling/bling/muta rather than ling/festor/ultra that i've been seeing lately.
Anyway, love the build, I always enjoy something different and fun even if the micro requirement is high. This seems like it might be effective in a number of cases so i'll keep at it.
On July 14 2012 19:30 Onionkebab wrote: Wish I was higher than gold so i could try this build out I really love bio play and long wanted to use the reapers into the play. But im still learning the mechanics and working on my constant SCV production. But i will keep this in mind so I can try it out when i become a more skilled play. One more reason to climb the later! Also nice detailed build, I really like it.
Just wanted to say that's an awesome attitude dude. Best of luck.
Low diamond here. I've been struggling a LOT versus zerg last week when I got back to practising. I was frustrated and angry after getting baneling busted / outmacroed all the time.
My mechanics are sloppy and I am aware that my micro is much worse than my macro. However, I decided to give this build a spin, and hot damn, it's pretty awesome.
First game, I held a baneling bust on Antiga. Opponent followed with another wave of lings and morphed them into blings on my natural mineral line. A week ago I would have lost due to my fast expansion (I believe the reason for the bust was that he scouted my bunker). I always built my CC at natural, but now I build it in the main and it makes life a lot easier. Noticing the constant stream of lings, I just made more reapers. 10 speedreapers against 8 slow banelings isn't actually fair at all.
Second game on Ohana. I play simcity till I have 10 or so reapers and proceed to attack his third. I see ling-bling, no speed. I was able to force him into roaches and started pumping out marauders. I added rax in my base and pumped out a nice bio ball. All this time the reapers were delaying my opponents tech. He got his infestors out, but because they did not have that much energy, my marauder-heavy ball was able to basetrade against his mutas. After the game I knew for sure, that with better mechanics I would have crushed my opponent.
I don't believe that you have to be Masters to use this build. I believe that practice on all levels is important! That's why I'm going to use this build to turn myself into a multitasking monster beast Thanks my mammal friend from outer space!
awesome strategy. I'm a zerg player and I haven't played anything like this yet.
I think the way to handle this would be:
- make a queen or two extra. You already have 4 queens to actively spread creep. Make one or two extra resulting in a total of 8 queens. You don't need millions of creep tumours anyway so you'll have sick amounts of transfuse and with 8 queens you can practically have 2-3 per base.
- Use your lings to absorb damage while the queens target the medivac.
- If necessary make 4 roaches or something to help you take third.
I never make a roach warren in tvz unless I have a reason so I'll have to scout this build really quickly.
Nevertheless great guide and looks amazingly fun ! Let's hope this gets some attention in higher level play!
Hey love the build its very innovative i too dont use any cookie cutter builds and have some of my own meta game tvz builds that are very successful on ladder. since your at the point of trying to optimize the build i thought id add some input that would help a bit. i noticed that you had enough minerals and gas to make a reactor on your factory right when your starports start. you can swap them once its done and you had enough for a viking and a medivac once the starport finished. itd get you viking out much faster and help with denying overlords quicker. :D hope this helps gl with the build ima add this one to my arsenal.
On July 19 2012 03:03 wcr.4fun wrote: You don't need millions of creep tumours anyway so you'll have sick amounts of transfuse and with 8 queens you can practically have 2-3 per base.
Saw in a replay that 5 reapers with a medivac handled 2-3 queens reasonably well in direct engagements and with the amount of greed zergs like to get away with these days this could be powerful. If not, you've just provided a prime example of what a guide should look like. Good stuff!
I am currently platinum ( in 2011 i was master but haven't played for so long time meh... ) and i did some experiment about opening it seems terran could simply FE before rax and then go for 3 rax reaper + tech but needs 3 gas instead of 2
9 depot 14 or 15 CC 15 or 16 rax#1 18 depot#2, gas#1 19 double OC, bunker
You can make 1 marine then tech lab, or just without marine.. I am not sure about this. tech lab --> gas#2, #3 --> rax#2 --> factory --> rax#3 factory --> starport + reactor ==> viking + medivac
Example replay ( i lost all reapers to baneling because of my stupid mistake, but killed zerg's 3rd ) http://drop.sc/225692
Some further transition i could think of: after medivac and at least 4 reapers, if you scout aggressive roach, stop gathering from ALL gas and produce marauders from 3 rax, make alot bunkers to defend
I'm a zerg and i have to say this is a pretty good strat.
Even with the ling stuff you've been talking about lately, it is still going to at the very least pay for itself with the medivac. Hellions eventually came down that all you did was kill creep tumors. So what is wrong if that is all you did with reapers? At the very least this will put a lot of pressure on the zerg in the ways that terrans have been complaining that they simply can not do with hellions.
I don't think you said anything about the OC energy and how to spend it. But i would advise trying to scan the main of the zerg if you can to see what he is going.
And ultimately i think it will come down to what reapers did back before the speed got put to factory tech, Speedlings and queens to hold it off. I think a lot of people will add in roaches and i think that is okay because there were several roach defense/pressure builds into a fastish third that came around with the whole hellion play (Before the queen buff). I don't mind putting 100-200 gas into roaches. I'll probably get about 2 less queens in this instance though, because i'm not sure a zerg can afford it. And then fast tech into infestors, maybe get a baneling nest just to be safe from a sudden pure bio switch. Then continue the current tech path to hive.
But since reapers do poorly vs roaches, i'm curious if you would be willing to say if they go all in to counter with your reapers and try to stop his reinforcing waves with the reapers and the medivac? (While trying to use the marauder/mass bunker defense to stay alive?) Though i'm pretty sure this completely depends on when they finally decide to go all in.
You also commented about blind all ins that it has an issue holding, But tbh it is the same issue with hellions vs those all ins. So that shouldn't be to big of a problem.
But all in all i really like the look of this build. Reapers are an underused unit imo, They do almost the exact same thing that hellions can do except that hellions have a bigger pure slaying power vs zerglings. But with the loss of that mass ling killing you get some extreme mobility to hit everywhere. (Especially on shakuras and antiga lol) Which can be very hard to deal with. But ultimately does exactly what you say, it FORCES the zerg to make units instead of drones because the queens simply will not be fast enough t-t
Although i am also curious about what time do you transition out of this? (That is the only other flaw i see, Where the hellion opener is a quick a few hellions, transition into bio or w/e. This feels a bit longer in the whole lets pump out 8-11 reapers. If it is to late then this build probably isn't viable. Especially if every terran starts to do this and every zerg starts to play against it. (But to be honest. if the transition out isn't to late vs a perfect defense + tech of a zerg, Which WILL happen eventually. then this build is VERY viable and imo has the potential to change the current standard strategy in TvZ lol)
(And just fyi. i didn't watch any of the replays as it is 2 AM and i'm tired xD I'll watch them tomorrow.)
Wow, I think I faced this on ladder mb a week ago. I didn't feel that it was very intimidating though, as it seemed that a group of speedlings could stop it from realizing its potential pretty easily. The part on having to be a masters player makes sense.
Btw: Space... Whales? Where did the whales come from?
On July 21 2012 18:10 straycat wrote: Wow, I think I faced this on ladder mb a week ago. I didn't feel that it was very intimidating though, as it seemed that a group of speedlings could stop it from realizing its potential pretty easily. The part on having to be a masters player makes sense.
Btw: Space... Whales? Where did the whales come from?
On July 21 2012 18:44 Plexa wrote: Interesting, I'm not a Terran so I can't test it. Would like to see some input from semipro-ish players.
I would like to see such input too. I have some replays and build orders from other high masters players who have been messaging me since the release of this guide. I am looking to test their variations and potentially create similar graphics for such variations. This probably won't be complete until I get the SWSS out of the way.
When the build was worse, Pokebunny went over it on his stream: He is the one who suggested the 3rd CC before adding additional barracks
really smart man, gives reapers high ground vision which was always slightly problematic with speedlings or roaches in position and it heals them and lets you pick up. With nitropacks there really is no good zerg counter to 8 reapers untill they get mutalisks, which with good harasment on geysers + drones+ 3rd base can be delayed quite a bit
I think the frequency of 4-6 queen simply shuts down reapers too hard, and I don't exactly trust this to hold allins either. This is just my gut feeling though.
On July 13 2012 12:24 tehemperorer wrote: Wow what a guide man I don't even play Terran and tI feel like I can win some!
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but although this is a new and shiny build, it isn't some magic bullet. In my opinion, it's not necessarily even better than a lot of what we currently have in TvZ. I actually open reaper FE in TvZ and have done so for a while and experimented with mass reaper openers. A good player will drop a roach warren and produce just a few roaches at each base and there goes your attack. Meanwhile they can mass drone behind it as well, while taking a third
I've tried this build, and I can only say.. mass speedlings shut this down so hard. =/
I feel like in the current map pool. This is only good for shakuras and taldarim altar. But thats about it. If shattered temple was still in, this build would be amazing
As a Zerg player, I'm actually surprised it took this long for someone to try and develop reaper play. Being that they efficiently kill off spine crawlers_and_zerglings, these big reaper plays basically force you to turtle and try to get up an infestation pit, and it's another 80 seconds until fungal growth is available. Good write up. I like the addition of the viking and medivac, they really seal the deal.
On July 21 2012 18:10 straycat wrote: Wow, I think I faced this on ladder mb a week ago. I didn't feel that it was very intimidating though, as it seemed that a group of speedlings could stop it from realizing its potential pretty easily. The part on having to be a masters player makes sense.
Btw: Space... Whales? Where did the whales come from?
This should hit before speed unless you opened with gas, in which case T prob should avoid doing this build.
On July 22 2012 00:09 Nightsz wrote: I've tried this build, and I can only say.. mass speedlings shut this down so hard. =/
I feel like in the current map pool. This is only good for shakuras and taldarim altar. But thats about it. If shattered temple was still in, this build would be amazing
I don't know about your micro man, but I'm pretty bad and I still rape mass ling with that... You have a medivac !
after playing around for a bit, expo before rax definitely feels alot better. You'll have a huge economy following it up, and you'll get about just as many reapers and medivacs around 7 minute timing due to how cheap reaper is mineral wise, so you can get that early 3rd gas.
On July 21 2012 22:43 Pokebunny wrote: I think the frequency of 4-6 queen simply shuts down reapers too hard, and I don't exactly trust this to hold allins either. This is just my gut feeling though.
I am doing much better holding roach bane with this than other things like hellion//banshee (could be because I suck at that though). Baneling bust is hard though and required catching wind of it out on the map. 4 queen opener and I am licking my chops because the speed is later and they often quadruple gas and I can catch the zerg teching.
The effort put forth in this thread is damn impressive. The video and charts sold me already. The build itself looks very micro intensive which leaves room for high skill cap which is great for future sc2
Here is a new replay where the reapers are shut down, and the Zerg is allowed to take a 3rd. Keep in mind that the investment required for him to hold off the reapers results in us having similar drone counts. I think he is a slow player so I am not sure if there is a chance to be busted at the front when the muta pop (with ling/bling/muta). My marine count was a bit lower than what seems safe so I think I need to either make some hellions or keep the reapers alive. http://drop.sc/248079
I have watched the replay on Xel'Naga. It's impressive how much badmouth you use while doing this cool strat. I mean, how can you expect people to concentrate on your game while you say "fuck you" and offensive gg your opponent?
On September 07 2012 18:02 fezvez wrote: Wow. Just wow.
I have watched the replay on Xel'Naga. It's impressive how much badmouth you use while doing this cool strat. I mean, how can you expect people to concentrate on your game while you say "fuck you" and offensive gg your opponent?
It's still a cool strat, but man up...
That was Shakuras. I was really really mad at zerg: It isn't personal BM. Yeah probably a douchey thing to do, but it is war mother fucker.
I love this style personally. Just feels like what a strong strat should, flows from one aspect clearly into another.
An interesting difference I noticed you could have made (going off your Shakuras replay here). After your first medivac, you didn't follow up with anything for another 2 minutes when you threw down your reactor. I'm sure that's just an error in execution, but I had a thought given how the scenario turns out at the time your initial reaper/medivac harass gets turned back...
Throw down a tech lab as soon as the medivac finishes, get a raven out second, deny creep spread completely. It should delay your 1/1 only a little bit, or else you could take your expo gasses slightly faster too and still get it out!
Ooo and the raven also gives you a PDD at around 11 minutes when the first mutas are going to be out... Could align with another push nicely there. Or if you've crippled them from before, you can go in with PDD and reapers and giggle at the queens ;P
Yeah idk this seems flimsy to me.. roach openings are quite common bc of hellion/banshee... as well as 6 queens.. which would poop on this imo.. idk about HOTS yet but as a zerg player i love to see reapers bc its resources not invested in something useful.. but i guess your post says greedy zergs so i guess it would makes sense.. but queens are too good to bank on him not having any
On September 08 2012 21:51 Theseus X wrote: Yeah idk this seems flimsy to me.. roach openings are quite common bc of hellion/banshee... as well as 6 queens.. which would poop on this imo.. idk about HOTS yet but as a zerg player i love to see reapers bc its resources not invested in something useful.. but i guess your post says greedy zergs so i guess it would makes sense.. but queens are too good to bank on him not having any
Strange, I see the opening as being quite good against roach openings. You gain map control from the reapers, and have up the 3 tech lab raxx ready to transition hard if you see them trying to pressure or push out. Even in base, slow roaches vs speed reapers with a medivac for lift-micro and sustain...
As for 6 queens, well again, you deny one of the strengths of the build: creep spread and map control.
A big benefit I also just noticed, if the zerg is going 4 queen, your first reaper arrives when zerg takes his gases. His speed is severely delayed, giving you approximately a 1 to 1:30 opening where you have speed reapers and they don't have speedlings.
If they're going 6 queen, you can see with your first reaper no gas and have an even bigger window to exploit...
This seems like a very cool build. Reapers + medivac = infinite mobility. Looks as if this would be insta-win on maps with some good cliffs to abuse against zergs who completely refuse to make roaches.
Strange, I see the opening as being quite good against roach openings. You gain map control from the reapers, and have up the 3 tech lab raxx ready to transition hard if you see them trying to pressure or push out. Even in base, slow roaches vs speed reapers with a medivac for lift-micro and sustain...
hmm the roaches are for 3 bases alone.. obviously any smart zerg player is not going to keep making roaches unless they see mech so your point is invalid.. no one follows up with more roaches if they see bio period.
if you have 6 queens you slow down creep spread yeah.. but there are still 4 queens spreading creep last time i checked thats pretty affective .
as far as not having zergling speed if they go for a 4 queen build.. they are going to be on 2 base tech longer and its hard for terran to do damage with reapers on a 2 base zerg with 4 queens
and roach ling can deal with any bio mech push that comes to try and deny a third or something.. and the push would only be weaker bc you have like 6 reapers
On September 08 2012 21:16 LionsFist wrote: I love this style personally. Just feels like what a strong strat should, flows from one aspect clearly into another.
An interesting difference I noticed you could have made (going off your Shakuras replay here). After your first medivac, you didn't follow up with anything for another 2 minutes when you threw down your reactor. I'm sure that's just an error in execution, but I had a thought given how the scenario turns out at the time your initial reaper/medivac harass gets turned back...
Throw down a tech lab as soon as the medivac finishes, get a raven out second, deny creep spread completely. It should delay your 1/1 only a little bit, or else you could take your expo gasses slightly faster too and still get it out!
Ooo and the raven also gives you a PDD at around 11 minutes when the first mutas are going to be out... Could align with another push nicely there. Or if you've crippled them from before, you can go in with PDD and reapers and giggle at the queens ;P
I am supposed to get a viking when the medi finishes, and then the reactor after the viking. The raven sounds like a cool idea but I think the reapers can clean up all the frontal creep with a well placed scan, as you mentioned the gas dump delays things like 1/1. I would also have to wait for the pdd to be ready and by that time zerg will likely have the capacity to defend easily on 2 bases.
On September 08 2012 21:51 Theseus X wrote: Yeah idk this seems flimsy to me.. roach openings are quite common bc of hellion/banshee... as well as 6 queens.. which would poop on this imo.. idk about HOTS yet but as a zerg player i love to see reapers bc its resources not invested in something useful.. but i guess your post says greedy zergs so i guess it would makes sense.. but queens are too good to bank on him not having any
With the 3 tech labs, the roach openers can be stopped if scouted. It is a reason I often expand on the high ground if I see gas from zerg. I feel like transitioning straight to a double drop while trying to deny the zerg 3rd with whatever initial reapers you produced is an adequate response.
In regards to 6 queens; they are able to defend this opener, but not without strong control from the zerg. If they queens are caught in groups of 2 or less you can pick them off. It is also strong to snipe extractors since they are delaying tech. Use the reapers to deny their 3rd while taking yours in base, and keep the creep down: I feel like it plays out without terran being at a significant disadvantage.
I agree that the build is flimsy so you can't get caught of guard by anything, and if the 3rd manages to construct then defensive roaches are a strong option; I feel well equipped to deal with aggressive ones though.
On September 08 2012 21:51 Theseus X wrote: Yeah idk this seems flimsy to me.. roach openings are quite common bc of hellion/banshee... as well as 6 queens.. which would poop on this imo.. idk about HOTS yet but as a zerg player i love to see reapers bc its resources not invested in something useful.. but i guess your post says greedy zergs so i guess it would makes sense.. but queens are too good to bank on him not having any
Strange, I see the opening as being quite good against roach openings. You gain map control from the reapers, and have up the 3 tech lab raxx ready to transition hard if you see them trying to pressure or push out. Even in base, slow roaches vs speed reapers with a medivac for lift-micro and sustain...
As for 6 queens, well again, you deny one of the strengths of the build: creep spread and map control.
A big benefit I also just noticed, if the zerg is going 4 queen, your first reaper arrives when zerg takes his gases. His speed is severely delayed, giving you approximately a 1 to 1:30 opening where you have speed reapers and they don't have speedlings.
If they're going 6 queen, you can see with your first reaper no gas and have an even bigger window to exploit...
Lots of damage occurs against the 4 queens, especially if they are isolated
On September 09 2012 01:18 Theseus X wrote: and roach ling can deal with any bio mech push that comes to try and deny a third or something.. and the push would only be weaker bc you have like 6 reapers
I use the reapers to deny the 3rd until zerg commits to a lair tech on 2 bases (ie: infestation pit, spire, roach/speed bling bust). If the zerg has established a 3rd on ling/roach, I don't push frontally, but instead drop as I factory transition and take my own 3rd. Not an ideal scenario, but its something that still offers the potential to control the pace.
Been lurking around Team Liquid for a long time, and finally now made an account to thank you for this!
I used this against a guy on ladder. When he scouted my fast double gas and tech lab on barracks he was thinking I was going banshees. When he saw my reapers + medivac move out he paused the game and went like:
"Ok, are you telling me.. I'm preparing for banshees.. And you come at me with reapers and a medivac? I don't even have speed yet.. This isn't even fair.. Ok, here we go.."
I really wonder how will this go in HotS, I think Blizzard looked at this build when they thought of the reaper self heal, since while you wont be able to attack buildings, this build should come a lot faster since no medivac is needed and reapers produce a tiny bit faster. If you get a beta pass you should definitely try to make something happen with this build at HotS :D even though I am sure it will take some effort to figure out the new timings, the build should be stronger
On September 10 2012 22:13 moskonia wrote: I really wonder how will this go in HotS, I think Blizzard looked at this build when they thought of the reaper self heal, since while you wont be able to attack buildings, this build should come a lot faster since no medivac is needed and reapers produce a tiny bit faster. If you get a beta pass you should definitely try to make something happen with this build at HotS :D even though I am sure it will take some effort to figure out the new timings, the build should be stronger
Actually it isn't a buff. Reapers heal only out of combat so you need the medivac to fight queens. Medivac is also better to get the reapers in position. (for example behind the mineral line) Also Hots reapers don't have the damage bonus vs buildings. So you can't deny the 3rd that fast and that's a pretty big nerf for this build.
On September 10 2012 22:13 moskonia wrote: I really wonder how will this go in HotS, I think Blizzard looked at this build when they thought of the reaper self heal, since while you wont be able to attack buildings, this build should come a lot faster since no medivac is needed and reapers produce a tiny bit faster. If you get a beta pass you should definitely try to make something happen with this build at HotS :D even though I am sure it will take some effort to figure out the new timings, the build should be stronger
Actually it isn't a buff. Reapers heal only out of combat so you need the medivac to fight queens. Medivac is also better to get the reapers in position. (for example behind the mineral line) Also Hots reapers don't have the damage bonus vs buildings. So you can't deny the 3rd that fast and that's a pretty big nerf for this build.
Yes, I have had some beta access (about 50 games), and this build is really bad because of not having the building attack. If I were to not use a medivac, they can just kill it with lings or roaches. Really a lot of the damage threat came from sniping extractors and tech structures, and as you mentioned denying the 3rd. Remember the building attack nerf also makes it such that I cannot kill creep so efficiently. Do note that regeneration at least lets me scout more with the initial reapers. Overall I probably won't be using this in HOTS though unless they change up the reaper. Reapers and ghosts are my favourite units but are much worse in HOTS
On September 10 2012 21:16 Justin-Sane wrote: Been lurking around Team Liquid for a long time, and finally now made an account to thank you for this!
I used this against a guy on ladder. When he scouted my fast double gas and tech lab on barracks he was thinking I was going banshees. When he saw my reapers + medivac move out he paused the game and went like:
"Ok, are you telling me.. I'm preparing for banshees.. And you come at me with reapers and a medivac? I don't even have speed yet.. This isn't even fair.. Ok, here we go.."
I found that quite hilarious!
Haha that is a great story. I too have been catching the zerg without speed from time to time; a lot of these guys aren't sacrificing overlords until too late :D
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/O1cvp.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sYciJ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zgQuK.png)
).![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/q1ofu.jpg)
I really love bio play and long wanted to use the reapers into the play. But im still learning the mechanics and working on my constant SCV production. But i will keep this in mind so I can try it out when i become a more skilled play.
