EPTStill watching, quite interesting.
The Space Whales Solution to TvZ (WIP) - Page 7
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
Still watching, quite interesting. | ||
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fezvez
France3021 Posts
I have watched the replay on Xel'Naga. It's impressive how much badmouth you use while doing this cool strat. I mean, how can you expect people to concentrate on your game while you say "fuck you" and offensive gg your opponent? It's still a cool strat, but man up... | ||
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WhalesFromSpace
390 Posts
On September 07 2012 18:02 fezvez wrote: Wow. Just wow. I have watched the replay on Xel'Naga. It's impressive how much badmouth you use while doing this cool strat. I mean, how can you expect people to concentrate on your game while you say "fuck you" and offensive gg your opponent? It's still a cool strat, but man up... That was Shakuras. I was really really mad at zerg: It isn't personal BM. Yeah probably a douchey thing to do, but it is war mother fucker. | ||
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WhalesFromSpace
390 Posts
On September 07 2012 16:37 padfoota wrote: You have the most fucked up hotkeys I have ever seen lol. Building unit building unit building building Still watching, quite interesting. I have often reconsidered revising my layout, but I am used to it now. | ||
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LionsFist
Australia164 Posts
An interesting difference I noticed you could have made (going off your Shakuras replay here). After your first medivac, you didn't follow up with anything for another 2 minutes when you threw down your reactor. I'm sure that's just an error in execution, but I had a thought given how the scenario turns out at the time your initial reaper/medivac harass gets turned back... Throw down a tech lab as soon as the medivac finishes, get a raven out second, deny creep spread completely. It should delay your 1/1 only a little bit, or else you could take your expo gasses slightly faster too and still get it out! Ooo and the raven also gives you a PDD at around 11 minutes when the first mutas are going to be out... Could align with another push nicely there. Or if you've crippled them from before, you can go in with PDD and reapers and giggle at the queens ;P | ||
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Theseus X
United States6 Posts
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HoLe
Canada183 Posts
Relevant to spacewhales' video! | ||
DKR
United Kingdom622 Posts
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LionsFist
Australia164 Posts
On September 08 2012 21:51 Theseus X wrote: Yeah idk this seems flimsy to me.. roach openings are quite common bc of hellion/banshee... as well as 6 queens.. which would poop on this imo.. idk about HOTS yet but as a zerg player i love to see reapers bc its resources not invested in something useful.. but i guess your post says greedy zergs so i guess it would makes sense.. but queens are too good to bank on him not having any Strange, I see the opening as being quite good against roach openings. You gain map control from the reapers, and have up the 3 tech lab raxx ready to transition hard if you see them trying to pressure or push out. Even in base, slow roaches vs speed reapers with a medivac for lift-micro and sustain... As for 6 queens, well again, you deny one of the strengths of the build: creep spread and map control. A big benefit I also just noticed, if the zerg is going 4 queen, your first reaper arrives when zerg takes his gases. His speed is severely delayed, giving you approximately a 1 to 1:30 opening where you have speed reapers and they don't have speedlings. If they're going 6 queen, you can see with your first reaper no gas and have an even bigger window to exploit... | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
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Theseus X
United States6 Posts
hmm the roaches are for 3 bases alone.. obviously any smart zerg player is not going to keep making roaches unless they see mech so your point is invalid.. no one follows up with more roaches if they see bio period. if you have 6 queens you slow down creep spread yeah.. but there are still 4 queens spreading creep last time i checked thats pretty affective . as far as not having zergling speed if they go for a 4 queen build.. they are going to be on 2 base tech longer and its hard for terran to do damage with reapers on a 2 base zerg with 4 queens | ||
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Theseus X
United States6 Posts
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WhalesFromSpace
390 Posts
On September 08 2012 21:16 LionsFist wrote: I love this style personally. Just feels like what a strong strat should, flows from one aspect clearly into another. An interesting difference I noticed you could have made (going off your Shakuras replay here). After your first medivac, you didn't follow up with anything for another 2 minutes when you threw down your reactor. I'm sure that's just an error in execution, but I had a thought given how the scenario turns out at the time your initial reaper/medivac harass gets turned back... Throw down a tech lab as soon as the medivac finishes, get a raven out second, deny creep spread completely. It should delay your 1/1 only a little bit, or else you could take your expo gasses slightly faster too and still get it out! Ooo and the raven also gives you a PDD at around 11 minutes when the first mutas are going to be out... Could align with another push nicely there. Or if you've crippled them from before, you can go in with PDD and reapers and giggle at the queens ;P I am supposed to get a viking when the medi finishes, and then the reactor after the viking. The raven sounds like a cool idea but I think the reapers can clean up all the frontal creep with a well placed scan, as you mentioned the gas dump delays things like 1/1. I would also have to wait for the pdd to be ready and by that time zerg will likely have the capacity to defend easily on 2 bases. On September 08 2012 21:51 Theseus X wrote: Yeah idk this seems flimsy to me.. roach openings are quite common bc of hellion/banshee... as well as 6 queens.. which would poop on this imo.. idk about HOTS yet but as a zerg player i love to see reapers bc its resources not invested in something useful.. but i guess your post says greedy zergs so i guess it would makes sense.. but queens are too good to bank on him not having any With the 3 tech labs, the roach openers can be stopped if scouted. It is a reason I often expand on the high ground if I see gas from zerg. I feel like transitioning straight to a double drop while trying to deny the zerg 3rd with whatever initial reapers you produced is an adequate response. In regards to 6 queens; they are able to defend this opener, but not without strong control from the zerg. If they queens are caught in groups of 2 or less you can pick them off. It is also strong to snipe extractors since they are delaying tech. Use the reapers to deny their 3rd while taking yours in base, and keep the creep down: I feel like it plays out without terran being at a significant disadvantage. I agree that the build is flimsy so you can't get caught of guard by anything, and if the 3rd manages to construct then defensive roaches are a strong option; I feel well equipped to deal with aggressive ones though. On September 08 2012 22:32 LionsFist wrote: Strange, I see the opening as being quite good against roach openings. You gain map control from the reapers, and have up the 3 tech lab raxx ready to transition hard if you see them trying to pressure or push out. Even in base, slow roaches vs speed reapers with a medivac for lift-micro and sustain... As for 6 queens, well again, you deny one of the strengths of the build: creep spread and map control. A big benefit I also just noticed, if the zerg is going 4 queen, your first reaper arrives when zerg takes his gases. His speed is severely delayed, giving you approximately a 1 to 1:30 opening where you have speed reapers and they don't have speedlings. If they're going 6 queen, you can see with your first reaper no gas and have an even bigger window to exploit... Lots of damage occurs against the 4 queens, especially if they are isolated  On September 09 2012 01:18 Theseus X wrote: and roach ling can deal with any bio mech push that comes to try and deny a third or something.. and the push would only be weaker bc you have like 6 reapers I use the reapers to deny the 3rd until zerg commits to a lair tech on 2 bases (ie: infestation pit, spire, roach/speed bling bust). If the zerg has established a 3rd on ling/roach, I don't push frontally, but instead drop as I factory transition and take my own 3rd. Not an ideal scenario, but its something that still offers the potential to control the pace. | ||
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Justin-Sane
7 Posts
I used this against a guy on ladder. When he scouted my fast double gas and tech lab on barracks he was thinking I was going banshees. When he saw my reapers + medivac move out he paused the game and went like: "Ok, are you telling me.. I'm preparing for banshees.. And you come at me with reapers and a medivac? I don't even have speed yet.. This isn't even fair.. Ok, here we go.." I found that quite hilarious! | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
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iNViCiOUZ
Germany364 Posts
On September 10 2012 22:13 moskonia wrote: I really wonder how will this go in HotS, I think Blizzard looked at this build when they thought of the reaper self heal, since while you wont be able to attack buildings, this build should come a lot faster since no medivac is needed and reapers produce a tiny bit faster. If you get a beta pass you should definitely try to make something happen with this build at HotS :D even though I am sure it will take some effort to figure out the new timings, the build should be stronger Actually it isn't a buff. Reapers heal only out of combat so you need the medivac to fight queens. Medivac is also better to get the reapers in position. (for example behind the mineral line) Also Hots reapers don't have the damage bonus vs buildings. So you can't deny the 3rd that fast and that's a pretty big nerf for this build. | ||
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WhalesFromSpace
390 Posts
On September 11 2012 00:08 iNViCiOUZ wrote: Actually it isn't a buff. Reapers heal only out of combat so you need the medivac to fight queens. Medivac is also better to get the reapers in position. (for example behind the mineral line) Also Hots reapers don't have the damage bonus vs buildings. So you can't deny the 3rd that fast and that's a pretty big nerf for this build. Yes, I have had some beta access (about 50 games), and this build is really bad because of not having the building attack. If I were to not use a medivac, they can just kill it with lings or roaches. Really a lot of the damage threat came from sniping extractors and tech structures, and as you mentioned denying the 3rd. Remember the building attack nerf also makes it such that I cannot kill creep so efficiently. Do note that regeneration at least lets me scout more with the initial reapers. Overall I probably won't be using this in HOTS though unless they change up the reaper. Reapers and ghosts are my favourite units but are much worse in HOTS  | ||
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WhalesFromSpace
390 Posts
On September 10 2012 21:16 Justin-Sane wrote: Been lurking around Team Liquid for a long time, and finally now made an account to thank you for this! I used this against a guy on ladder. When he scouted my fast double gas and tech lab on barracks he was thinking I was going banshees. When he saw my reapers + medivac move out he paused the game and went like: "Ok, are you telling me.. I'm preparing for banshees.. And you come at me with reapers and a medivac? I don't even have speed yet.. This isn't even fair.. Ok, here we go.." I found that quite hilarious! Haha that is a great story. I too have been catching the zerg without speed from time to time; a lot of these guys aren't sacrificing overlords until too late :D | ||
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WhalesFromSpace
390 Posts
Starts at ~10:08 | ||
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