I've been trying this in low masters and it seems like such an all in--if they scout it, you lose. With the nitropack overlords its quite difficult to deny scouting and if zerg makes ANY lings to run into nat they will know something is up. You might as well marine scv all in, because if you get scouted at all you lose. Although if they dont scout it, its hilarious!

Maybe I'm missing something, but this just seems like a blind all in (if they scout it at all you lose). It sounded so promising too

TheEmulator

28100 Posts

July 03 2012 07:26 GMT

#23

I will try this out and let everyone know how it goes.

MepHiii

Poland191 Posts

July 03 2012 08:44 GMT

#24

fuck yeah, he's back!

looking forward to more from you

trolldrew

Afghanistan16 Posts

July 03 2012 08:49 GMT

#25

damn so basically you're just like telling everybody yo try this half-ass'd 3 rax all in and if it doesnt work try transitioning into more rax.

wut a pro

User was warned for this post

MepHiii

Poland191 Posts

July 03 2012 09:54 GMT

#26

On July 03 2012 17:49 trolldrew wrote:
damn so basically you're just like telling everybody yo try this half-ass'd 3 rax all in and if it doesnt work try transitioning into more rax.

wut a pro

amazing analysis, i hope you get banned for this shitty post.

User was warned for this post

daralharb

United States59 Posts

July 03 2012 11:07 GMT

#27

Just watched the replays, seems like an interesting build and I'll try it out ASAP. Could you please post more replays of you transitioning out of the first attack?
Thank you in advance

derpinator

74 Posts

July 03 2012 12:34 GMT

#28

So what happens when zergs know you didnt do a 1rax FE? I tried this and after zerg scouted a delayed CC he didnt made more than 30 drones and just pumped speedlings with a couple of banelings and proceeded to win the game.

StimmedProbe

Hong Kong98 Posts

July 03 2012 12:47 GMT

#29

On July 03 2012 21:34 derpinator wrote:
So what happens when zergs know you didnt do a 1rax FE? I tried this and after zerg scouted a delayed CC he didnt made more than 30 drones and just pumped speedlings with a couple of banelings and proceeded to win the game.

Replay? I'll add a section on how to execute the build more effectively right now.

nojok

France15846 Posts

July 03 2012 14:38 GMT

#30

And why no pressure with 12/14 rax? Even if it is to fall back doing no more damage then triggering a bit earlier lings?

Eps

Canada240 Posts

July 03 2012 15:12 GMT

#31

On July 03 2012 23:38 nojok wrote:
And why no pressure with 12/14 rax? Even if it is to fall back doing no more damage then triggering a bit earlier lings?

I thought the point of the build was to take advantage of Zerg's comfort in relying on Queens and Speedless Lings for defence.

Watched all the replays, the third one was kind of tell-tale of how confident Zergs have become of their Queens. He saw a mass of Marines and even though they left, he didn't try to regain vision or scout, or even build additional Lings.

Interesting build, will see how it works out. It's nice to see a way for Terran to be aggressive early game again.

Lionhermit

United States10 Posts

July 03 2012 15:16 GMT

#32

If Zerg is doing a 4+ queen build, even if he scouts this he won't have ling speed out in time to meet your units on the map. At the very least you're slowing down Zerg's tech/econ by forcing a baneling nest/spines/extra lings that aren't drones. Scouting before you commit into his natural would be a very good idea, because if you see he cut drones to defend I would just go home with all your units alive and start teching. Zerg needs to crush this attack with zero drone losses in order to be ahead if he spent that drone/money on a baneling nest. Terran expo is at decent time, as well. Cool build, I'd use it if I played Terran. =3

Saechiis

Netherlands4989 Posts

July 03 2012 15:17 GMT

#33

On July 03 2012 05:51 Belial88 wrote:

Show nested quote +

4 gates, double starport banshee, 1 base DT, also work very well when unscouted.

Terran doesn't really have a solid play in TvZ currently, so yes, we need to play gimmicky, it's not like we want to play like that.

SnowFox2ne1

United States52 Posts

July 03 2012 15:24 GMT

#34

Not a bad idea, but it's a little too coin-flippy for me to really want to explore a ton. But then again I did have a zerg try and 6 pool me today, so maybe a build like this isn't so bad to have in the arsenal.

Orek

1665 Posts

July 03 2012 15:35 GMT

#35

On July 04 2012 00:17 Saechiis wrote:

Show nested quote +

Terran doesn't really have a solid play in TvZ currently, so yes, we need to play gimmicky, it's not like we want to play like that.

Yep, so lucky Terran can be at least gimmicky when there is no solid play vs another race. When Lost Temple high ground was abused, when tanks were shooting from natural to natural in Steppes of War, when reapers kited queens and even roaches forever, when blue hellion 2 shot killed a million workers, Zerg wanted to play gimmicky if possible.

Starshaped

Sweden575 Posts

July 03 2012 16:03 GMT

#36

A better version of this is to 15CC into 3rax pressure. Pretty big marine push around 6:30 and much better econ than this build, plus the 15CC usually makes the Zerg react greedily.

This build also gets super late gas.

Also, no good Zerg should ever straight up lose to this. You'd be lucky to even deny the 3rd.

Saechiis

Netherlands4989 Posts

July 03 2012 16:10 GMT

#37

On July 04 2012 00:35 Orek wrote:

Show nested quote +

Move on bro, that was more than a year ago.

Sianos

580 Posts

July 03 2012 17:27 GMT

#38

I´m doing a quite similar attack for 1-2 month. What i´m doing is a 1 rax fe followed up with a marine push at 8 minutes with combat shield and ~ 20 marines. That build allways kills a fast 3rd without banelings or roaches and it even trades good vs a lot of speedlings because of combat shield and good positioning behind minerals or before walls. The bonus from this is that you don´t really need to deny scouting, because Zerg will think that you are doing a 1 rax fe. I have also a good transition out of it. I have a really good success rate aggainst diamond and master players with this. What do you think about it?

EsportsJohn

United States4883 Posts

July 03 2012 17:45 GMT

#39

The one problem I have about this build is all about scouting. Yes, we know "if he doesn't get gas, I'm safe. If he doesn't scout all 3 rax, I'm even safer." But what about the worst case scenario. Let's say he takes his gas early (15h14p14g), how does one recover from throwing down 2-3 rax and delaying an expansion?

Will you try to do a non-proxied 2rax bunker rush? Will you try to sit back and macro, maybe get a fast 3rd CC? Will you just build 3rax and try anyway, relying on forcing some units from the zerg? I mean, this is a clever build, but it's focused purely on the "I hope my opponent doesn't do this" metagame. Maybe you should look at some refinement to this strategy and possibly some followups IN CASE he doesn't do what you want him to do.

I 100% believe that every player, unless they're in GSL, should focus on refined builds that are not based on coinflips. It's good to have a couple of all-ins up your sleeve, but even then, you build should be based around your ability to deny scouting and push at a strong time, not whether or not your opponent takes gas. "Metagame" builds like CC first or 3rax rush before CC will lose you 100% of single-elimination tournaments and should quite a bit on ladder as well.

EsportsJohn

United States4883 Posts

July 03 2012 17:56 GMT

#40

On July 04 2012 02:27 Sianos wrote:
I´m doing a quite similar attack for 1-2 month. What i´m doing is a 1 rax fe followed up with a marine push at 8 minutes with combat shield and ~ 20 marines. That build allways kills a fast 3rd without banelings or roaches and it even trades good vs a lot of speedlings because of combat shield and good positioning behind minerals or before walls. The bonus from this is that you don´t really need to deny scouting, because Zerg will think that you are doing a 1 rax fe. I have also a good transition out of it. I have a really good success rate aggainst diamond and master players with this. What do you think about it?

I do a variation on this without CS...haven't really gotten around to testing CS yet. But essentially, my build is a 1rax FE into gasless 4rax. I accumulate enough money to build a 3rd CC at 7:00, and I move out with 16-17 marines. I also add all 4 gases at this time.

The marine moveout occurs around 7:00, arrives at zerg 3rd at 7:30. I've had like 90% success immediately killing off the 3rd if there was no early gas, as well as breaking even with the zerg worker count by 9:30. My followup push comes at 12:00 with stim/cs/+1,+1/medivacs (20-37 marines depending on if you retained early marines/4-6 marauders/2-4 medivacs) with full worker saturation on 3-base.

Of course sometimes the zerg takes an early gas, so it's better to just sit at home and prepare for a baneling bust or a roach bust while teching, cutting some of your marine production.

These 4rax builds with/without CS are still INFINITELY better than this 3rax delayed CC rush business. They achieve the same goal at about the same time, while still being able to deal with whatever the zerg can throw at you. Keep doing your build, play around with transitions! It's good!