|
StimmedProbe's Postpatch TvZ Build #1 12-14-18rax
Last Update: July 3rd, 2012
Build #1 of 3: 12-14-18 rax
Basic Idea:
This build is a metagame build designed to take advantage of the comfort that 4-6 queens provide zerg players. This build provides a sizeable ammount of marines to launch an early attack. This build also provides a strong follow-up attack with marines mauraders and hellions.
Build Order:
10 – Supply Depot
12 – Barracks
14 – Barracks
16 – Marine
17 – Orbital Command
17 – Supply Depot
18 – Marine
18 – Barracks
<Pump marines, scvs and depots>
32 – Command Center (5:00-5:10)
38 – Refinery x2
@100gas factory
@50gas reactor
Attack with 16 marines (Roughly 6:05), micro, focus fire and try to lower the surface area while still providing wiggle room for your marines if they need to escape.
Tips and Tricks:
- Try to hide the 2nd and 3rd rax if possible, this makes it look similar to a 1rax FE to the zerg
- Try to prevent an overlord from seeing if you have taken your expansion
- Clear watchtowers with 2-3 marines for extra surprise
- If you see the gas later than 4:00 you are in GREAT SHAPE because it takes the zerg roughly 3 minutes to get speed from the time they start their gas, you will hit a sick timing with your 16 marines (20-25 seconds before speed finishes)
- Queens will kick you out at ~4:45 so make sure to leave with your scout before that, try to see what time the gas is taken and if a spine was built
- Build your factory near one of your rax so you can make some reactored hellions quickly
- Try to lower surface area, but always provide a way to escape from surrounds (keep your back to the wall, but always have an exit path along the wall)
- You can use the mineral patches or hatchery to provide some 'cover' for your marines, they greatly reduce surface area
- Try to snipe overlords, if you can supply block him even for a short time, you can do massive damage
Follow up:
If you do not win the game right away you can follow up with a marine/maurader/hellion timing. I recommend 4-5 rax and 1-2 factories. Get stim/shields/shells and if you like blue flame. +1/+1 is also possible. Just try to spend the mini trust fund you accumulated during the marine micro as well as you can based on the situation. You can bring some scvs along if you like as well for a stronger timing. If that attack does not finish the game, you can procede into standard play as long as your two attacks did some decent damage by taking a 3rd and swapping some addons.
How to hide what you are doing *New*:
- Try to build your 2nd/3rd rax at your natural. This will help you in a few ways. First of all you might be able to kill the drone before it gets a chance to check the main and the natural. Second of all you might be able to wall the drone into your main, so it cannot check your natural for additional barracks.
- Try to anticipate the 1st overlord movement, and pick somewhere to put your 2nd and 3rd barracks accordingly.
- Position a few marines at the ramp (2-3) at around 4:40, since this is when a zerg will poke your front with a few lings.
- Place your 3rd depot somewhere in your main so you can spot if an overlord is moving in
Replays:
http://drop.sc/212866
In this game I notice my opponent did not take an early gas. My attack hit a little bit before speed and I crushed through his queens, drones and zerglings.
http://drop.sc/212867
In this game I did the attack with 16 marines and managed to supply block him a few times. I also used the minerals/hatchery to reduce surface area well.
http://drop.sc/212868
In this game I attack with a few less marines, which gave him some time to prepare when my 16 marines came in. I still did pretty good damage, and although I macroed pretty bad during the attack I was able to finish him off with my 2nd attack.
More builds to come in the next few days!
|
Nice to see you're still sticking with it ^^
|
United Kingdom14103 Posts
|
I don't know about this, feels like 6 queen opening with a spine can defend. It just feels like marines without stim and shield are kind of useless against zerg now. Queen ling too efficent v this.
|
On July 03 2012 04:45 Targe wrote:
Is this all one base?
The first 16 marines are off 1 base, the 2nd cc is building. Read the post >.<
On July 03 2012 04:45 intense555 wrote:
I don't know about this, feels like 6 queen opening with a spine can defend. It just feels like marines without stim and shield are kind of useless against zerg now. Queen ling too efficent v this.
16 marines do insane amounts of damage with focus fire and micro, zergs sometimes skip the spine when they see a 1rax FE. I have never had a problem with 1 spine alone and no one has ever had two spines when I arrived completed.
|
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On July 03 2012 04:50 StimmedProbe wrote:The first 16 marines are off 1 base, the 2nd cc is building. Read the post >.<
Ah thanks! I did read it but when scrolling I must have missed the BO.
|
Awesome! I can't wait to use this in BoX's. 
|
Many Zerg don't get a spinecrawler anymore and rely on queen only defense. This opening could work pretty well if it is unscouted.
|
It's been a while since I've seen a [G] from you stimmedprobe, good to see you're still at it. I'll have to mix this in to my current play when I get the chance.
|
Nice guide, always loved guides out of you StimmedProbe. Good to see you're still writing.
|
On July 03 2012 05:00 FlubbaSet wrote:
Many Zerg don't get a spinecrawler anymore and rely on queen only defense. This opening could work pretty well if it is unscouted.
4 gates, double starport banshee, 1 base DT, also work very well when unscouted.
|
On July 03 2012 05:51 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:00 FlubbaSet wrote:
Many Zerg don't get a spinecrawler anymore and rely on queen only defense. This opening could work pretty well if it is unscouted. 4 gates, double starport banshee, 1 base DT, also work very well when unscouted.
Are you really trying to compare an economic 3rax to a bunch of beta cheese strats?
|
On July 03 2012 06:02 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:51 Belial88 wrote:On July 03 2012 05:00 FlubbaSet wrote:
Many Zerg don't get a spinecrawler anymore and rely on queen only defense. This opening could work pretty well if it is unscouted. 4 gates, double starport banshee, 1 base DT, also work very well when unscouted. Are you really trying to compare an economic 3rax to a bunch of beta cheese strats?
3 rax only works unscouted. If zerg gets some combination of speedlings, queens, a spine crawler, or banelings, this will not work. I've tried it. 2 rax is superior by far.
|
On July 03 2012 06:29 oOOoOphidian wrote:
3 rax only works unscouted. If zerg gets some combination of speedlings, queens, a spine crawler, or banelings, this will not work. I've tried it. 2 rax is superior by far.
i guess thats why he tells you to hide your 2nd and 3rd rax in the OP. i'll try that a few times. sounds interesting to go against my instincts to upgrade my marines with the first rax+techlab...
|
On July 03 2012 06:02 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:51 Belial88 wrote:On July 03 2012 05:00 FlubbaSet wrote:
Many Zerg don't get a spinecrawler anymore and rely on queen only defense. This opening could work pretty well if it is unscouted. 4 gates, double starport banshee, 1 base DT, also work very well when unscouted. Are you really trying to compare an economic 3rax to a bunch of beta cheese strats?
Are you serious?
Aside from 4 gate, the other two builds almost always involve an expansion.
DT expand was quite a common build before, and so was cloak banshee --> expand (before the spore crawler root time). As a matter of fact, 1 port cloak banshee --> 3 CC is still a fairly common build.
This 3 rax expand is just as cheesy as a DT expand, in the sense that if you don't do sufficient damage, you pretty much lose. 6 queens w/ some transfuse and slow lings can hold this off as long as you don't allow the marines to walk into a low surface area position. From there, your tech is so behind and your upgrades probably will be too, you cannot win without the zerg seriously screwing up.
|
Cool build! Hopefully we'll get to see more of these kinds of timings.
Nice guide and great job!
|
you would need to be very careful about denying scouting of your natural, if a competent zerg spots no cc at 4:30-5:00 he'll spine up with atleast 2 spines.
|
http://drop.sc/213162 Here is my attempt at it. Opening worked great, just my follow up wasn't so great. Denying scouting of the nat is hard on some maps so on some maps, I don't think you can do this. 1 Spine was no problem even with 3 queens there.
|
On July 03 2012 09:45 Vanchen wrote:http://drop.sc/213162 Here is my attempt at it. Opening worked great, just my follow up wasn't so great. Denying scouting of the nat is hard on some maps so on some maps, I don't think you can do this. 1 Spine was no problem even with 3 queens there.
Not bad not bad, I have a couple of tips for you though. Make sure you focus fire the queens if you have a chance, that will hurt the zerg quite a bit in the long run if they lose all their queens. In addition try to keep your marines along a wall if possible to reduce surface area for lings and drones.
|
This build will keep Zerg honest.
Whoever skips all scouting, gas, spine and ling then go all out queen will be punished hard.
The build is essentially 12 14 2rax at start, so even if 2rax attack doesn't come immediately upon scouting 2 rax, skipping ling production and a spine is a greedy play from Zerg and deserve to be punished.
As OP stated, denying scout is a big part. 5min CC is very late. Standard 1 rax FE is 3min10sec CC, and a competent Zerg would probably know that its not even 1rax either by seeing 2nd rax or couting SCV number at mineral line.
I like how OP called this "metagame build." Blindly going 6 queens metagame will die to this build easily when executed well.
In future, Zerg players will adapt and make at least 1 spine and save transfuse energy if scouting natural failed in case of this push coming. Otherwise, super greedy Zerg, myself included, deserve to lose.
|
Holy shit. Opened TL and saw StimmedProbe in strategy.
Heart did a little skip
|
I've been trying this in low masters and it seems like such an all in--if they scout it, you lose. With the nitropack overlords its quite difficult to deny scouting and if zerg makes ANY lings to run into nat they will know something is up. You might as well marine scv all in, because if you get scouted at all you lose. Although if they dont scout it, its hilarious!
Maybe I'm missing something, but this just seems like a blind all in (if they scout it at all you lose). It sounded so promising too 
|
28096 Posts
I will try this out and let everyone know how it goes.
|
fuck yeah, he's back! looking forward to more from you
|
damn so basically you're just like telling everybody yo try this half-ass'd 3 rax all in and if it doesnt work try transitioning into more rax.
wut a pro
User was warned for this post
|
On July 03 2012 17:49 trolldrew wrote:
damn so basically you're just like telling everybody yo try this half-ass'd 3 rax all in and if it doesnt work try transitioning into more rax.
wut a pro
amazing analysis, i hope you get banned for this shitty post.
User was warned for this post
|
Just watched the replays, seems like an interesting build and I'll try it out ASAP. Could you please post more replays of you transitioning out of the first attack?
Thank you in advance
|
So what happens when zergs know you didnt do a 1rax FE? I tried this and after zerg scouted a delayed CC he didnt made more than 30 drones and just pumped speedlings with a couple of banelings and proceeded to win the game.
|
On July 03 2012 21:34 derpinator wrote:
So what happens when zergs know you didnt do a 1rax FE? I tried this and after zerg scouted a delayed CC he didnt made more than 30 drones and just pumped speedlings with a couple of banelings and proceeded to win the game.
Replay? I'll add a section on how to execute the build more effectively right now.
|
And why no pressure with 12/14 rax? Even if it is to fall back doing no more damage then triggering a bit earlier lings?
|
On July 03 2012 23:38 nojok wrote:
And why no pressure with 12/14 rax? Even if it is to fall back doing no more damage then triggering a bit earlier lings?
I thought the point of the build was to take advantage of Zerg's comfort in relying on Queens and Speedless Lings for defence.
Watched all the replays, the third one was kind of tell-tale of how confident Zergs have become of their Queens. He saw a mass of Marines and even though they left, he didn't try to regain vision or scout, or even build additional Lings.
Interesting build, will see how it works out. It's nice to see a way for Terran to be aggressive early game again.
|
If Zerg is doing a 4+ queen build, even if he scouts this he won't have ling speed out in time to meet your units on the map. At the very least you're slowing down Zerg's tech/econ by forcing a baneling nest/spines/extra lings that aren't drones. Scouting before you commit into his natural would be a very good idea, because if you see he cut drones to defend I would just go home with all your units alive and start teching. Zerg needs to crush this attack with zero drone losses in order to be ahead if he spent that drone/money on a baneling nest. Terran expo is at decent time, as well. Cool build, I'd use it if I played Terran. =3
|
On July 03 2012 05:51 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:00 FlubbaSet wrote:
Many Zerg don't get a spinecrawler anymore and rely on queen only defense. This opening could work pretty well if it is unscouted. 4 gates, double starport banshee, 1 base DT, also work very well when unscouted.
Terran doesn't really have a solid play in TvZ currently, so yes, we need to play gimmicky, it's not like we want to play like that.
|
Not a bad idea, but it's a little too coin-flippy for me to really want to explore a ton. But then again I did have a zerg try and 6 pool me today, so maybe a build like this isn't so bad to have in the arsenal.
|
On July 04 2012 00:17 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:51 Belial88 wrote:On July 03 2012 05:00 FlubbaSet wrote:
Many Zerg don't get a spinecrawler anymore and rely on queen only defense. This opening could work pretty well if it is unscouted. 4 gates, double starport banshee, 1 base DT, also work very well when unscouted. Terran doesn't really have a solid play in TvZ currently, so yes, we need to play gimmicky, it's not like we want to play like that.
Yep, so lucky Terran can be at least gimmicky when there is no solid play vs another race. When Lost Temple high ground was abused, when tanks were shooting from natural to natural in Steppes of War, when reapers kited queens and even roaches forever, when blue hellion 2 shot killed a million workers, Zerg wanted to play gimmicky if possible.
|
A better version of this is to 15CC into 3rax pressure. Pretty big marine push around 6:30 and much better econ than this build, plus the 15CC usually makes the Zerg react greedily.
This build also gets super late gas.
Also, no good Zerg should ever straight up lose to this. You'd be lucky to even deny the 3rd.
|
On July 04 2012 00:35 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 00:17 Saechiis wrote:On July 03 2012 05:51 Belial88 wrote:On July 03 2012 05:00 FlubbaSet wrote:
Many Zerg don't get a spinecrawler anymore and rely on queen only defense. This opening could work pretty well if it is unscouted. 4 gates, double starport banshee, 1 base DT, also work very well when unscouted. Terran doesn't really have a solid play in TvZ currently, so yes, we need to play gimmicky, it's not like we want to play like that. Yep, so lucky Terran can be at least gimmicky when there is no solid play vs another race. When Lost Temple high ground was abused, when tanks were shooting from natural to natural in Steppes of War, when reapers kited queens and even roaches forever, when blue hellion 2 shot killed a million workers, Zerg wanted to play gimmicky if possible.
Move on bro, that was more than a year ago.
|
I´m doing a quite similar attack for 1-2 month. What i´m doing is a 1 rax fe followed up with a marine push at 8 minutes with combat shield and ~ 20 marines. That build allways kills a fast 3rd without banelings or roaches and it even trades good vs a lot of speedlings because of combat shield and good positioning behind minerals or before walls. The bonus from this is that you don´t really need to deny scouting, because Zerg will think that you are doing a 1 rax fe. I have also a good transition out of it. I have a really good success rate aggainst diamond and master players with this. What do you think about it?
|
United States4883 Posts
The one problem I have about this build is all about scouting. Yes, we know "if he doesn't get gas, I'm safe. If he doesn't scout all 3 rax, I'm even safer." But what about the worst case scenario. Let's say he takes his gas early (15h14p14g), how does one recover from throwing down 2-3 rax and delaying an expansion?
Will you try to do a non-proxied 2rax bunker rush? Will you try to sit back and macro, maybe get a fast 3rd CC? Will you just build 3rax and try anyway, relying on forcing some units from the zerg? I mean, this is a clever build, but it's focused purely on the "I hope my opponent doesn't do this" metagame. Maybe you should look at some refinement to this strategy and possibly some followups IN CASE he doesn't do what you want him to do.
I 100% believe that every player, unless they're in GSL, should focus on refined builds that are not based on coinflips. It's good to have a couple of all-ins up your sleeve, but even then, you build should be based around your ability to deny scouting and push at a strong time, not whether or not your opponent takes gas. "Metagame" builds like CC first or 3rax rush before CC will lose you 100% of single-elimination tournaments and should quite a bit on ladder as well.
|
United States4883 Posts
On July 04 2012 02:27 Sianos wrote:
I´m doing a quite similar attack for 1-2 month. What i´m doing is a 1 rax fe followed up with a marine push at 8 minutes with combat shield and ~ 20 marines. That build allways kills a fast 3rd without banelings or roaches and it even trades good vs a lot of speedlings because of combat shield and good positioning behind minerals or before walls. The bonus from this is that you don´t really need to deny scouting, because Zerg will think that you are doing a 1 rax fe. I have also a good transition out of it. I have a really good success rate aggainst diamond and master players with this. What do you think about it?
I do a variation on this without CS...haven't really gotten around to testing CS yet. But essentially, my build is a 1rax FE into gasless 4rax. I accumulate enough money to build a 3rd CC at 7:00, and I move out with 16-17 marines. I also add all 4 gases at this time.
The marine moveout occurs around 7:00, arrives at zerg 3rd at 7:30. I've had like 90% success immediately killing off the 3rd if there was no early gas, as well as breaking even with the zerg worker count by 9:30. My followup push comes at 12:00 with stim/cs/+1,+1/medivacs (20-37 marines depending on if you retained early marines/4-6 marauders/2-4 medivacs) with full worker saturation on 3-base.
Of course sometimes the zerg takes an early gas, so it's better to just sit at home and prepare for a baneling bust or a roach bust while teching, cutting some of your marine production.
These 4rax builds with/without CS are still INFINITELY better than this 3rax delayed CC rush business. They achieve the same goal at about the same time, while still being able to deal with whatever the zerg can throw at you. Keep doing your build, play around with transitions! It's good!
|
What do i do if Z gets earlier gas, speedlings and 2+ spines? Just turn around?
Just attacked at 6:20 leave my base 6:50 arrived at his, 2 spines loads of speedlings was embarrassing.
|
CC first is actually safe in TvZ. It only loses to 6pool, and 6pool loses to everything else so nobody does it.
|
On July 04 2012 03:54 Starshaped wrote:
CC first is actually safe in TvZ. It only loses to 6pool, and 6pool loses to everything else so nobody does it.
Hilariously, if you scout after Depot just to be safe when you're going CC-first (on a 2p map... no one should be 6-pooling on 4p), you can see the 6-pool in time to NOT drop a CC, reactively wall in your ramp with 2 Barracks, and repair until Marines pop. Build a CC next, grab gas, defend the inevitable Baneling bust follow-up, and you win. 9 times out of 10, however, when his Drones and Zerglings get there and see you walled, he just leaves.
|
United States4883 Posts
On July 04 2012 04:04 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 03:54 Starshaped wrote:
CC first is actually safe in TvZ. It only loses to 6pool, and 6pool loses to everything else so nobody does it. Hilariously, if you scout after Depot just to be safe when you're going CC-first (on a 2p map... no one should be 6-pooling on 4p), you can see the 6-pool in time to NOT drop a CC, reactively wall in your ramp with 2 Barracks, and repair until Marines pop. Build a CC next, grab gas, defend the inevitable Baneling bust follow-up, and you win. 9 times out of 10, however, when his Drones and Zerglings get there and see you walled, he just leaves.
Hahaha nice. Still having a hard time believing that a 6-pool is the ONLY THING a CC on the low ground loses to, but I haven't really tried it out a lot. Still, there are always those trolls that enter MLG and 6-pool just for fun.
|
On July 04 2012 00:12 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 23:38 nojok wrote:
And why no pressure with 12/14 rax? Even if it is to fall back doing no more damage then triggering a bit earlier lings? I thought the point of the build was to take advantage of Zerg's comfort in relying on Queens and Speedless Lings for defence. Watched all the replays, the third one was kind of tell-tale of how confident Zergs have become of their Queens. He saw a mass of Marines and even though they left, he didn't try to regain vision or scout, or even build additional Lings. Interesting build, will see how it works out. It's nice to see a way for Terran to be aggressive early game again.
I meant pressure like a normal 12/14 while following the build, like pressure 12/14 fall back & come again with the push designated by the build.
|
This seems like a good idea to surprise zerg once in awihle.
The weakness I see is that you attack pretty late with marines vs a non all in zerg. Theoretically, you should do some damage to them....
However, if they prepare for such a push and are accustomed to your build, you will lose your units and then have a weaker attack timing at 10:00 or 11:00 when medivacs would be coming out normally? What are your thoughts
|
On July 04 2012 03:54 Starshaped wrote:
CC first is actually safe in TvZ. It only loses to 6pool, and 6pool loses to everything else so nobody does it.
Honestly there's been several successful 6pools in top Korean games recently
|
having probs downloading links from drop.sc, can u dropbox link them or something?
|
On July 04 2012 03:09 rebotfc wrote:
What do i do if Z gets earlier gas, speedlings and 2+ spines? Just turn around?
Just attacked at 6:20 leave my base 6:50 arrived at his, 2 spines loads of speedlings was embarrassing. Yes. You turn around and make the next push later. You still get a CC at 5:00, so you can easily transition into a strong Marine/Marauder/Hellion (or some other composition, this build is pretty open) push later, and start a third around 10:00
|
United States4883 Posts
On July 04 2012 08:43 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 03:09 rebotfc wrote:
What do i do if Z gets earlier gas, speedlings and 2+ spines? Just turn around?
Just attacked at 6:20 leave my base 6:50 arrived at his, 2 spines loads of speedlings was embarrassing. Yes. You turn around and make the next push later. You still get a CC at 5:00, so you can easily transition into a strong Marine/Marauder/Hellion (or some other composition, this build is pretty open) push later, and start a third around 10:00
The only problem I see is the inevitable followup of a super crazy ling/baneling bust or a roach bust. Nowadays, it's like almost 100% probable to see these kinds of followups to getting a quick gas.
With 3 naked rax and a late CC, is it really possible to hold off the followup attack? Assuming the normal timings, you have about 40 seconds to get set up before a potential bust, 30 sec of that is walking back to your base hoping some speedlings won't overrun you. I mean, I feel like this strategy should be aborted WAAAAYYY earlier, like the moment you see gas going down.
|
On July 04 2012 14:18 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 08:43 Fencar wrote:On July 04 2012 03:09 rebotfc wrote:
What do i do if Z gets earlier gas, speedlings and 2+ spines? Just turn around?
Just attacked at 6:20 leave my base 6:50 arrived at his, 2 spines loads of speedlings was embarrassing. Yes. You turn around and make the next push later. You still get a CC at 5:00, so you can easily transition into a strong Marine/Marauder/Hellion (or some other composition, this build is pretty open) push later, and start a third around 10:00 The only problem I see is the inevitable followup of a super crazy ling/baneling bust or a roach bust. Nowadays, it's like almost 100% probable to see these kinds of followups to getting a quick gas. With 3 naked rax and a late CC, is it really possible to hold off the followup attack? Assuming the normal timings, you have about 40 seconds to get set up before a potential bust, 30 sec of that is walking back to your base hoping some speedlings won't overrun you. I mean, I feel like this strategy should be aborted WAAAAYYY earlier, like the moment you see gas going down. Considering your high Marine count, you should be OK against the bust if you save your Marines(or are at least cost-effective with them) and build 2-3 Bunkers to absorb Baneling hits or tank Roach shots, as well as getting some Marauders by the time the push hits if you have the money.
|
On July 04 2012 04:25 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 03:54 Starshaped wrote:
CC first is actually safe in TvZ. It only loses to 6pool, and 6pool loses to everything else so nobody does it. Honestly there's been several successful 6pools in top Korean games recently
I would actually like to see this, do you have a source?
|
On July 05 2012 06:40 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 04:25 HaXXspetten wrote:On July 04 2012 03:54 Starshaped wrote:
CC first is actually safe in TvZ. It only loses to 6pool, and 6pool loses to everything else so nobody does it. Honestly there's been several successful 6pools in top Korean games recently I would actually like to see this, do you have a source?
The last time I heard of a 6-pool zvt against a Korean was the idra vs alive showmatch. I think we all know how that turned out.
|
On July 05 2012 21:54 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 06:40 Clarity_nl wrote:On July 04 2012 04:25 HaXXspetten wrote:On July 04 2012 03:54 Starshaped wrote:
CC first is actually safe in TvZ. It only loses to 6pool, and 6pool loses to everything else so nobody does it. Honestly there's been several successful 6pools in top Korean games recently I would actually like to see this, do you have a source? The last time I heard of a 6-pool zvt against a Korean was the idra vs alive showmatch. I think we all know how that turned out.
MKP went CC first and got 6pooled two games in a row and lost both in a TSL4 qualifier iirc
|
On July 05 2012 21:54 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 06:40 Clarity_nl wrote:On July 04 2012 04:25 HaXXspetten wrote:On July 04 2012 03:54 Starshaped wrote:
CC first is actually safe in TvZ. It only loses to 6pool, and 6pool loses to everything else so nobody does it. Honestly there's been several successful 6pools in top Korean games recently I would actually like to see this, do you have a source? The last time I heard of a 6-pool zvt against a Korean was the idra vs alive showmatch. I think we all know how that turned out.
alive went CC first on crossfire and held off idra's 6pool.
Alive says "u 6poll?"
|
I've been doing something like this lately trying to go against the 4-6queen, but ive been doing a 12/14rax and push w/ 5-6 marine and 5scvs, i do a hell lot of dmg, but i just havent figured out when i should be able to push again, so i would just fuck it and go to 3oc bio and that makes my opening useless cuz then by the he could of macro'd back up fine
i will be trying this out
|
Just used it against a gm level player and won,
the attk w/ the 3rax killed over 20 drones, 10 lings and 4 queens
folowed up to 4rax and 2fact w/ marauder marine bf hellion, while he tried to counter allin me w/ bane bust etc and was able to hold it off
|
On July 04 2012 04:04 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 03:54 Starshaped wrote:
CC first is actually safe in TvZ. It only loses to 6pool, and 6pool loses to everything else so nobody does it. Hilariously, if you scout after Depot just to be safe when you're going CC-first (on a 2p map... no one should be 6-pooling on 4p), you can see the 6-pool in time to NOT drop a CC, reactively wall in your ramp with 2 Barracks, and repair until Marines pop. Build a CC next, grab gas, defend the inevitable Baneling bust follow-up, and you win. 9 times out of 10, however, when his Drones and Zerglings get there and see you walled, he just leaves.
honestly, cant you just CC first with the CC in the wallin where the rax normally is built? Without knowing any exact timings shouldnt you be perfectly safe even against an unscouted 6pool?. I guess the issue is getting your natural blocked from landing the CC but then again, just keep it in the wall muleing until you get some marines, shouldnt be that big a loss and 100% safe.
|
Ive been doing this alot now and trying to tweak it myself
If the both attks dont do enough dmg, u will behind tremendously since u will be behind in upgrades,
so far out of 15 games of me doing this, only 3 zergs were able to completely shut out the inital 16marine push and about 4 crushed my followup attk.
during my followup attk, i try to get 3rd, switch my dbl fact to tanks to be safe against roach bane ling aggression etc, orless i will get messed up easily. so i was wondering, if its possible to get also 1/1 for the followup, while having 3-4 rax production w/ the reactor fact and tech fact for bfh? i feel like this would 1, be really strong and also help for the game later.
also ive found that if u 13 scout, u could tell if they are gasing or not, and if they do, the best is to cancel 3rax and go for a 2rax bunker rush, as the slings will rape the 3rax plain marines w/ ease
here are some of my replays:
http://drop.sc/215683
http://drop.sc/215690
http://drop.sc/215685
http://drop.sc/215691
http://drop.sc/215692
http://drop.sc/215686
http://drop.sc/215680
http://drop.sc/215681
|
Haha I'd like to run into this, it would be interesting. I do a 28 warren, and 8 roaches spawn around 6:15~, so I think I could hold...but it would be a bit dicey, and if I missed a timing or lost an overlord I'd probably be done for.
|
Quickly someone show MarineKing this build ... would love to hear what he thinks of it.
|
Hey, so is the timing for this push, specifically 6 minutes? Or is there a wiggle room for that, in which I can arrive slightly later and still be okay? Thanks for answering!
|
I have tried this a few times, not as much success as your thor build. I prefer the thors anyways..cooler unit and they usually provide more rage
|
Another StimmedProbe "specialty"
|
So, i have been doing a 12/14 rax for a while, pushing out fast to get a bunker harass at the natural if possible or go into the "qxc" positioning bunker contain to buy myself some time.
This option might fit in really well with this style, as I build a CC at about teh same time, but would have a lot more marines. Perhaps I could send 2-3 scvs while rallying additional marines to the bottom of the ramp, and while the 16 are doing their work, have the scv's set up the contain...
damage and a contain. I like the feel of this.
Must try it when I get home from work!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://starcraft-2-strategy.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Barracks-150x150.jpg)
