The video above explains the build, common follow ups, and additional tips and tricks. I highly recommend watching it as well as reading below.
This build is rarely used on ladder. During my whole Starcraft history, I've only ran into this build once, which means many people won't have much experience vs it.
I go over some common follow ups, which are mainly: Proxy gate(s) They chrono zealots and play the catchup game (not as common) They either forge expand or regular expand If they have a probe in your base, they might double gas steal you.
It is very important that you wall off, so that you can scout for an incoming probe that will in-base proxy 2 gate you. It also helps to defend proxy gate(s) after you steal both gasses as you can full wall off with a canon if you choose to do so.
Maps that this works on: Cloud Kingdom (in 1v1 ladder pool) Dual Sight Sanshorn Mist
This build can work on other 2 player maps where the gasses are far apart, but the risk is that they can quickly take the gas on the opposite side. On 4 player maps it is possible, but you will have to send out 2 probes (assuming no close position spawns). It's probably not worth it on 4 player maps in my opinion.
Tip: Take the gas closest to their mineral line first in case they extremely quickly take their other gas.
Replays: http://drop.sc/209978 - Replay used in this video. I go 4 gate warp prism vs his forge expand.
http://drop.sc/209979 - He double gas steals me back because I didn't take my own gas soon enough. Some BM at the end, I recommend using the mature language filter.
Me doing a live commentary over double gas steal -
I will add more replays as time goes on, or if you have any please private message me them and I will add them here! Thanks!
Had this thrown at me probably about a year ago I'd say. I just about did a 360 in my chair, its pretty effective.
@Tyler##### nice tutorial video, very well done. Ever had someone cannon rush you in response? Short of expanding and praying for a longer game thats the only response I can think of that has any chance of working.
Thank you Cecil. Now that this guide has been posted I give it a very high chance I will face it in the next few days, despite only seeing it once before in my life.
On June 30 2012 09:18 Tombomb wrote: Had this thrown at me probably about a year ago I'd say. I just about did a 360 in my chair, its pretty effective.
@Tyler##### nice tutorial video, very well done. Ever had someone cannon rush you in response? Short of expanding and praying for a longer game thats the only response I can think of that has any chance of working.
Cannon rush in response? If they were to do it after I double gas steal them, by the time they get a forge and try to cannon rush, I've already got a zealot out and it's pretty easy to defend.
On June 30 2012 09:23 CecilSunkure wrote: And here is how to defend it: http://drop.sc/181028
Watched the replay, wbc made quite a few mistakes. He took a really bold expansion off just two gates, got supply blocked, and made some pretty big micro mistakes in his push. Not to insult wbc, but had he played it out differently he would've been ahead.
On June 30 2012 09:23 CecilSunkure wrote: And here is how to defend it: http://drop.sc/181028
That timing with the sentry was pretty thin. And the gas stealing player basically messed up as much as possible in his attack. But it was funny to watch nonetheless.
I have tried to double gas steal as Zerg against Protoss a few times, and in general I have found it to be very effective. Even though I lose two drones, it is worth it in the way that it completely changes your opponent's strategy, and forces some crazy response. If you do it right of course.
if you see 9 scout ,why not putting a probe near gas gayser to block gas stealing ? you are economicaly ahead anyway since he pulled the probe to scout at 9 . isant that a easier way to deal with it ?
On June 30 2012 10:17 Scurvy wrote: I have tried to double gas steal as Zerg against Protoss a few times, and in general I have found it to be very effective. Even though I lose two drones, it is worth it in the way that it completely changes your opponent's strategy, and forces some crazy response. If you do it right of course.
Do you do this against FFE or just gate expand or one base play? When FFE'ing it seems like for most gas timings you could just take the gas at your natural and have units out by the time you need to take your third and fourth gas.
On June 30 2012 09:23 CecilSunkure wrote: And here is how to defend it: http://drop.sc/181028
That timing with the sentry was pretty thin. And the gas stealing player basically messed up as much as possible in his attack. But it was funny to watch nonetheless.
You don't need a Sentry. I could have made some Stalkers instead
On June 30 2012 10:17 Scurvy wrote: I have tried to double gas steal as Zerg against Protoss a few times, and in general I have found it to be very effective. Even though I lose two drones, it is worth it in the way that it completely changes your opponent's strategy, and forces some crazy response. If you do it right of course.
Hahaha, they didn't just nexus first, get two cannons and then take gas at their nat? It should only really delay the 20 supply double gas that's the norm for a max of like 45 seconds. xD
Yeah this build is very frustrating ot play against. I usualyl just chrono zealtos out and rally them to the other guy's base. THey usually don't have enough micro to deal with it, even though they will usually have a zealot out by that time. Just make sure you have at least 1 zealot on kill probe patrol and you should be okay. I think I even solmetimes just take my gas at my nat and just sticka s hit ton of probes on it sometimes lol.
On June 30 2012 09:23 CecilSunkure wrote: And here is how to defend it: http://drop.sc/181028
That timing with the sentry was pretty thin. And the gas stealing player basically messed up as much as possible in his attack. But it was funny to watch nonetheless.
You don't need a Sentry. I could have made some Stalkers instead
I don't think that's a winning strat vs double gas steal.
If he had just sat at the bottom of your ramp with the stalkers instead of running up and getting force fielded (Twice!) he would have had his expo up way before you could even think about having one, as well as being able to harass your army as it moved out.
On June 30 2012 10:02 -Zao- wrote: This is terrible.
The only good use I can see maybe working once is if you dbl gas steal and then go for a 4gate.
Yea, that's what you can usually do with this build. Problem is if they get a ton of cannons then you'll need a warp prism as well. You also have to be on the lookout for proxy gate(s).
On June 30 2012 09:23 CecilSunkure wrote: And here is how to defend it: http://drop.sc/181028
That timing with the sentry was pretty thin. And the gas stealing player basically messed up as much as possible in his attack. But it was funny to watch nonetheless.
You don't need a Sentry. I could have made some Stalkers instead
I don't think that's a winning strat vs double gas steal.
If he had just sat at the bottom of your ramp with the stalkers instead of running up and getting force fielded (Twice!) he would have had his expo up way before you could even think about having one, as well as being able to harass your army as it moved out.
You won that game because he suicided 5 stalkers.
If he has five stalkers at the bottom of my ramp he's going to lose them? He also has no idea what is up my ramp due to denying of scouting. If he tries to do a contain + expo the opponent can lose a prism.
I'm just pointing out that the opponent didn't make "giant mistakes" that would have won him the game if he had played otherwise, as people here are saying. It's not complicated... Just don't overreact, make a cannon, chrono your gates not your WG and you'll be just fine.
On July 01 2012 00:21 cmcnutt34 wrote: Waste investment in my opinion. What level is this at?
I'm currently in masters. I used to be top 8, but I haven't been laddering a lot recently. I'm rank like 40 or so right now as toss. I can play the other races in masters just not as well
On June 30 2012 10:17 Scurvy wrote: I have tried to double gas steal as Zerg against Protoss a few times, and in general I have found it to be very effective. Even though I lose two drones, it is worth it in the way that it completely changes your opponent's strategy, and forces some crazy response. If you do it right of course.
Do you do this against FFE or just gate expand or one base play? When FFE'ing it seems like for most gas timings you could just take the gas at your natural and have units out by the time you need to take your third and fourth gas.
I don't do it if they FFE (which is most of the time) but any time they try some sort of 1 base play, I have found that it forces a proxy gate zealot rush, which when you know it is coming, is quite easy to defend.
On June 30 2012 10:17 Scurvy wrote: I have tried to double gas steal as Zerg against Protoss a few times, and in general I have found it to be very effective. Even though I lose two drones, it is worth it in the way that it completely changes your opponent's strategy, and forces some crazy response. If you do it right of course.
Do you do this against FFE or just gate expand or one base play? When FFE'ing it seems like for most gas timings you could just take the gas at your natural and have units out by the time you need to take your third and fourth gas.
I don't do it if they FFE (which is most of the time) but any time they try some sort of 1 base play, I have found that it forces a proxy gate zealot rush, which when you know it is coming, is quite easy to defend.
I can see that actually being really useful vs gateway openings. Although they aren't very common this does seem like a good idea.
I like the innovation, but i cannot see how it would work against a good response. The other day somebody did it to me, and all I had to do was not overact, make some zealots to take out the gas (dont cut workers), pressure with like 5-6 zealots to scout and kill a few workers, and follow up with a robo/immortal timing.
On July 01 2012 02:49 Swagtacular wrote: I like the innovation, but i cannot see how it would work against a good response. The other day somebody did it to me, and all I had to do was not overact, make some zealots to take out the gas (dont cut workers), pressure with like 5-6 zealots to scout and kill a few workers, and follow up with a robo/immortal timing.
I don't think this was the best response. Just like the other replay posted in here, your opponent made a few mistakes, probably because they don't have enough practice with this build. He got supply blocked really badly around 5:00 for a long time. I also don't like going blink after double gas stealing. His warp gate was so far ahead, and he knew your zealot count, so I don't know why he didn't go for some sort of 4 gate. Also, had he walled off like I said in this build, the zealot pressure wouldn't have done any damage.
Hey, i was wondering. I have done alot of korean 4gating in PvP, and there usually is this short space of time between a zealot and a stalker where you can just put down pylons in your opponents base and let them finnish before he can kill them. If you delay his warp gate tech with double gas steal, this means korean 4gate would be even more effective (if not countered by cannon in miniral line..but then you can still do massive damage). Would it be possible of instead using 4gate warp prism, to hide a probe, and even if he finds out, he only has zealots, probe beats zealots, and then just spam a bunch of pylons in his base?
On July 01 2012 06:07 Xenocide_EU wrote: Hey, i was wondering. I have done alot of korean 4gating in PvP, and there usually is this short space of time between a zealot and a stalker where you can just put down pylons in your opponents base and let them finnish before he can kill them. If you delay his warp gate tech with double gas steal, this means korean 4gate would be even more effective (if not countered by cannon in miniral line..but then you can still do massive damage). Would it be possible of instead using 4gate warp prism, to hide a probe, and even if he finds out, he only has zealots, probe beats zealots, and then just spam a bunch of pylons in his base?
I thought that about Nawina's blink+obs build but man, you know what a good toss does? They FFE and cheese you with Gaulzi style cannon rushing.
It can be favorable but its just safer to not double gas steal period. Heck when I proxy 2 gate'd in PvP I didn't double gas steal, I sent 1 zealot to attack the stalker and took the rest and went after the mineral line, if the probes ran I split lets 1-2 chase the probes and took the others and killed pylons.
Double gas steal imo is a very nice way of saying "PLEASE CHEESE ME, I like to be cannon rushed and even if I survive I'm okay with you having a early expo while I'm hurting from the cheese."
On June 30 2012 11:03 moskonia wrote: The delay against FFE as Zerg might provide a timing attack that uses the WG timing delay, even though I am not sure if its worth it.
this is interesting. not only would it delay warp tech, it would force early zealots which would cut into probe production
On June 30 2012 11:03 moskonia wrote: The delay against FFE as Zerg might provide a timing attack that uses the WG timing delay, even though I am not sure if its worth it.
this is interesting. not only would it delay warp tech, it would force early zealots which would cut into probe production
If you're not mining vespene there's no reason for probe cuts.
On July 01 2012 07:19 Babel Fish wrote: Double gas steal imo is a very nice way of saying "PLEASE CHEESE ME, I like to be cannon rushed and even if I survive I'm okay with you having a early expo while I'm hurting from the cheese."
Umm, I mentioned in the video that if you wall off, you will be able to spot incoming probes, and you should also scout for the forge. Check around your base, and check for proxy gates later on, and you should be fine.
Someone just did it to me, ended up being the most hillarious PvP I ever had. It is just Plaitnum league and we are both very, like really, really very bad. But I give it to you as an illustration, what can happen from a double gas steal. There is even long distance mineral mining! I wish people did it more
In PvP, if you see a probe enter your base that early especially on a 2 player map, there's an extremely high chance you're getting proxied, cannon rushed, or double gas stolen. I would immediately scout my base and/or stick a probe on his probe especially on maps that are easy to cannon rush behind the mineral lines or do this style of double gas stealing.
On July 02 2012 10:26 rsvp wrote: In PvP, if you see a probe enter your base that early especially on a 2 player map, there's an extremely high chance you're getting proxied, cannon rushed, or double gas stolen. I would immediately scout my base and/or stick a probe on his probe especially on maps that are easy to cannon rush behind the mineral lines or do this style of double gas stealing.
I get scouted that early most of the time (in masters) and usually none of that happens. I think people just scout after 9 to make sure they're not getting cannon rushed / proxied. What is a standard time for scouting in pvp? After gate?
I lost in tournament againt this strategy. He double gas stealed and followed up with 4 gate blink stalker all in. I guess it's a very effective strategy however possible only on a very limited map pool.
I tried this a while back. this is extremely vulnerable to 2 gate proxies, as you don't scout for them with your 9 probe (if you do, you will arrive late and he will get a gas up) and you delay your gateway significantly. Even if you arrive, see no gateway in their base and abort the gas steal to get your own gate, you will be really late. your first zealot won't be done in time for their 2 rolling in.
Additionally, even with a normal build he can totally break your front with a zealot/cannon push, as you will be really behind in army and tech. basically, as soon as you gas steal, he can chrono zealot and drop a forge, then set up a proxy at your natural, cannon in range of your ramp and walk up with zealots. you can't get your own zealots/cannons out as fast as he can due to the investment in assimilators.
The idea is cute, but ultimately a risky cheese that ends up being kinda boring.
Some scout after gate, some after pylon, some don't scout at all, everyone does it differently I wouldn't say someone who 9scouts 100% does cheese, but since his economy is already behind yours, I think following his probe wont hurt you that badly and its better to follow it then to lose to cheese
On July 02 2012 10:26 rsvp wrote: In PvP, if you see a probe enter your base that early especially on a 2 player map, there's an extremely high chance you're getting proxied, cannon rushed, or double gas stolen. I would immediately scout my base and/or stick a probe on his probe especially on maps that are easy to cannon rush behind the mineral lines or do this style of double gas stealing.
OP appears to send his Probe after his 9 Pylon in the video. Is this really that suspicious to you? I always scout after my first Pylon in every match-up...
EDIT:
Thinking about it, I suppose that I wouldn't get to the opponent's base as early as OP does because I scout around my base for proxy Pylons/Forges/Gateways etc. before sending the Probe across the map. But I still don't find that timing suspicious.
Yeah that should still be suspicious. If he scouts on nine you can afford to scout around for proxies and such, as he'd have lost more mining time than your scout probe ever will.
On July 03 2012 01:19 quillian wrote: Nice, thorough guide, though not new.
I tried this a while back. this is extremely vulnerable to 2 gate proxies, as you don't scout for them with your 9 probe (if you do, you will arrive late and he will get a gas up) and you delay your gateway significantly. Even if you arrive, see no gateway in their base and abort the gas steal to get your own gate, you will be really late. your first zealot won't be done in time for their 2 rolling in.
Additionally, even with a normal build he can totally break your front with a zealot/cannon push, as you will be really behind in army and tech. basically, as soon as you gas steal, he can chrono zealot and drop a forge, then set up a proxy at your natural, cannon in range of your ramp and walk up with zealots. you can't get your own zealots/cannons out as fast as he can due to the investment in assimilators.
The idea is cute, but ultimately a risky cheese that ends up being kinda boring.
I said in the video that I should've scouted around for proxies and that I just didn't in this game. It would've only taken me an extra few seconds to scout around for it. With the wall off I had, there's no way it could've been an in-base proxy. Also, because I send the probe after my 9 pylon, if I nothing in his base I still have some time to throw down a forge.
As far as a zealot/cannon push, I said it's extremely important to be constantly scouting and checking around your natural and 3rd for and proxies. It would be really hard to lose to a zealot & cannon push, as you can just get a forge of your own, and you have a wall off.
I recommend you try this build on ladder or with a friend before jumping to conclusions on what can hard counter it and that it's risky, because it's not really.
On July 02 2012 10:26 rsvp wrote: In PvP, if you see a probe enter your base that early especially on a 2 player map, there's an extremely high chance you're getting proxied, cannon rushed, or double gas stolen. I would immediately scout my base and/or stick a probe on his probe especially on maps that are easy to cannon rush behind the mineral lines or do this style of double gas stealing.
I get scouted that early most of the time (in masters) and usually none of that happens. I think people just scout after 9 to make sure they're not getting cannon rushed / proxied. What is a standard time for scouting in pvp? After gate?
I used to do it after core but now I do it after assimilator if I 13 gate and after my 16 pylon if I 12 gate, scouting all proxy locations first before heading to opponent base. Scouting earlier is a waste imo, since finding no proxies is just as telling as scouting their base to see buildings. If you don't find proxies, you basically know they are doing 1 of 3 builds that are really all the same.
On July 03 2012 01:19 quillian wrote: Nice, thorough guide, though not new.
I tried this a while back. this is extremely vulnerable to 2 gate proxies, as you don't scout for them with your 9 probe (if you do, you will arrive late and he will get a gas up) and you delay your gateway significantly. Even if you arrive, see no gateway in their base and abort the gas steal to get your own gate, you will be really late. your first zealot won't be done in time for their 2 rolling in.
Additionally, even with a normal build he can totally break your front with a zealot/cannon push, as you will be really behind in army and tech. basically, as soon as you gas steal, he can chrono zealot and drop a forge, then set up a proxy at your natural, cannon in range of your ramp and walk up with zealots. you can't get your own zealots/cannons out as fast as he can due to the investment in assimilators.
The idea is cute, but ultimately a risky cheese that ends up being kinda boring.
I said in the video that I should've scouted around for proxies and that I just didn't in this game. It would've only taken me an extra few seconds to scout around for it. With the wall off I had, there's no way it could've been an in-base proxy. Also, because I send the probe after my 9 pylon, if I nothing in his base I still have some time to throw down a forge.
As far as a zealot/cannon push, I said it's extremely important to be constantly scouting and checking around your natural and 3rd for and proxies. It would be really hard to lose to a zealot & cannon push, as you can just get a forge of your own, and you have a wall off.
I recommend you try this build on ladder or with a friend before jumping to conclusions on what can hard counter it and that it's risky, because it's not really.
I have tried it. It can work when people don't know wtf to do, but dies to a good 2 gate proxy and is possible but tricky vs well executed counter cheese after the gas steal.
If you scout thoroughly for proxy gates (they are often at 3rd or 4th) you will arrive at their base pretty late. Even in the video you got there at 13. much more delay and he could have gotten his assimilator without even changing his build.
Zealot cannon push is in fact very hard to hold, because you forge will be later than theirs.
They will build two pylons, one at the top of your ramp, one at the bottom.
The top one will mess up your wall and give him vision while he warps cannons and proxy gates on the low ground.your forge will be way behind his. Your zealot will not be done in time to kill the first cannon, and pulling probes won't really work if his placement is good. best case scenario you lose your wall and turtle at your nexus, and hope to win on a tech rush.
I've not tried this on the new maps you suggest as it was a few seasons ago, so I'm not sure how they work for proxy placement.
All that said, I'm sure you can get a lot of wins on ladder, as with any unusual cheese, as people won't know how to play it out. It's not really a sustainable or interesting strategy in the long term though.
On July 03 2012 01:19 quillian wrote: Nice, thorough guide, though not new.
I tried this a while back. this is extremely vulnerable to 2 gate proxies, as you don't scout for them with your 9 probe (if you do, you will arrive late and he will get a gas up) and you delay your gateway significantly. Even if you arrive, see no gateway in their base and abort the gas steal to get your own gate, you will be really late. your first zealot won't be done in time for their 2 rolling in.
Additionally, even with a normal build he can totally break your front with a zealot/cannon push, as you will be really behind in army and tech. basically, as soon as you gas steal, he can chrono zealot and drop a forge, then set up a proxy at your natural, cannon in range of your ramp and walk up with zealots. you can't get your own zealots/cannons out as fast as he can due to the investment in assimilators.
The idea is cute, but ultimately a risky cheese that ends up being kinda boring.
I said in the video that I should've scouted around for proxies and that I just didn't in this game. It would've only taken me an extra few seconds to scout around for it. With the wall off I had, there's no way it could've been an in-base proxy. Also, because I send the probe after my 9 pylon, if I nothing in his base I still have some time to throw down a forge.
As far as a zealot/cannon push, I said it's extremely important to be constantly scouting and checking around your natural and 3rd for and proxies. It would be really hard to lose to a zealot & cannon push, as you can just get a forge of your own, and you have a wall off.
I recommend you try this build on ladder or with a friend before jumping to conclusions on what can hard counter it and that it's risky, because it's not really.
I have tried it. It can work when people don't know wtf to do, but dies to a good 2 gate proxy and is possible but tricky vs well executed counter cheese after the gas steal.
If you scout thoroughly for proxy gates (they are often at 3rd or 4th) you will arrive at their base pretty late. Even in the video you got there at 13. much more delay and he could have gotten his assimilator without even changing his build.
Zealot cannon push is in fact very hard to hold, because you forge will be later than theirs.
They will build two pylons, one at the top of your ramp, one at the bottom.
The top one will mess up your wall and give him vision while he warps cannons and proxy gates on the low ground.your forge will be way behind his. Your zealot will not be done in time to kill the first cannon, and pulling probes won't really work if his placement is good. best case scenario you lose your wall and turtle at your nexus, and hope to win on a tech rush.
I've not tried this on the new maps you suggest as it was a few seasons ago, so I'm not sure how they work for proxy placement.
All that said, I'm sure you can get a lot of wins on ladder, as with any unusual cheese, as people won't know how to play it out. It's not really a sustainable or interesting strategy in the long term though.
edit - typo
People usually don't proxy at your 3rd or 4th, because it's not much benefit if the zealots are that far away. It's usually in base (wall off can spot incoming probe though) or at the natural. Natural only takes a few seconds to scout, if even that.
I want to test the zealot & cannon rush because I've never ran into this and to me it doesn't seem like that big of a problem if you scout it.
I wouldn't call double gas steal cheese either, it's a pretty reactionary build that takes a lot of skill and decision making to pull off.
I don't get why people say that this loses so hard to proxy gate. If he in-base proxies you, you will see it because of the pylon at the wall. If he proxies them at the nat or even further away you can simply wall with a forge and win, no? Obviously you don't need to let your gases finish if you don't spot anything in his base + no probe production...
On July 03 2012 01:19 quillian wrote: Nice, thorough guide, though not new.
I tried this a while back. this is extremely vulnerable to 2 gate proxies, as you don't scout for them with your 9 probe (if you do, you will arrive late and he will get a gas up) and you delay your gateway significantly. Even if you arrive, see no gateway in their base and abort the gas steal to get your own gate, you will be really late. your first zealot won't be done in time for their 2 rolling in.
Additionally, even with a normal build he can totally break your front with a zealot/cannon push, as you will be really behind in army and tech. basically, as soon as you gas steal, he can chrono zealot and drop a forge, then set up a proxy at your natural, cannon in range of your ramp and walk up with zealots. you can't get your own zealots/cannons out as fast as he can due to the investment in assimilators.
The idea is cute, but ultimately a risky cheese that ends up being kinda boring.
I said in the video that I should've scouted around for proxies and that I just didn't in this game. It would've only taken me an extra few seconds to scout around for it. With the wall off I had, there's no way it could've been an in-base proxy. Also, because I send the probe after my 9 pylon, if I nothing in his base I still have some time to throw down a forge.
As far as a zealot/cannon push, I said it's extremely important to be constantly scouting and checking around your natural and 3rd for and proxies. It would be really hard to lose to a zealot & cannon push, as you can just get a forge of your own, and you have a wall off.
I recommend you try this build on ladder or with a friend before jumping to conclusions on what can hard counter it and that it's risky, because it's not really.
I have tried it. It can work when people don't know wtf to do, but dies to a good 2 gate proxy and is possible but tricky vs well executed counter cheese after the gas steal.
If you scout thoroughly for proxy gates (they are often at 3rd or 4th) you will arrive at their base pretty late. Even in the video you got there at 13. much more delay and he could have gotten his assimilator without even changing his build.
Zealot cannon push is in fact very hard to hold, because you forge will be later than theirs.
They will build two pylons, one at the top of your ramp, one at the bottom.
The top one will mess up your wall and give him vision while he warps cannons and proxy gates on the low ground.your forge will be way behind his. Your zealot will not be done in time to kill the first cannon, and pulling probes won't really work if his placement is good. best case scenario you lose your wall and turtle at your nexus, and hope to win on a tech rush.
I've not tried this on the new maps you suggest as it was a few seasons ago, so I'm not sure how they work for proxy placement.
All that said, I'm sure you can get a lot of wins on ladder, as with any unusual cheese, as people won't know how to play it out. It's not really a sustainable or interesting strategy in the long term though.
edit - typo
People usually don't proxy at your 3rd or 4th, because it's not much benefit if the zealots are that far away. It's usually in base (wall off can spot incoming probe though) or at the natural. Natural only takes a few seconds to scout, if even that.
I want to test the zealot & cannon rush because I've never ran into this and to me it doesn't seem like that big of a problem if you scout it.
I wouldn't call double gas steal cheese either, it's a pretty reactionary build that takes a lot of skill and decision making to pull off.
on cloud kingdom? Proxy gates at 3rd or 4th are really common. I see that way more than in base, really. It's off the common scout path but close enough to do serious damage if they don't react.
it's a gamble, you are betting your first few minerals and delaying your build significantly to inflict tech damage NOW. Lots of cheese takes skill. some even have well developed metagames and macro transitions. It's the blind up front risk for a potential large early payoff that makes it cheese.
On July 03 2012 02:17 Lazermonkey wrote: I don't get why people say that this loses so hard to proxy gate. If he in-base proxies you, you will see it because of the pylon at the wall. If he proxies them at the nat or even further away you can simply wall with a forge and win, no? Obviously you don't need to let your gases finish if you don't spot anything in his base + no probe production...
Finally someone who understands me. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Why would you double gas steal an opponent with nothing in his base? He's obviously going to be proxying..
On June 30 2012 10:31 xsnac wrote: if you see 9 scout ,why not putting a probe near gas gayser to block gas stealing ? you are economicaly ahead anyway since he pulled the probe to scout at 9 . isant that a easier way to deal with it ?
I love how the perfect response gets ignored and people continue to talk about their shit. looks like TL is not a place for strategy talk...
if i see an early scout, i immediately take 1 gas so this shit can't lose me a game. As someone pointed out, if they have done such an early scout, cutting a probe to put down 1 gas is easily justified. It's just another cheese ladder build that works against people who don't know / think about it.
Hwangsin did this against Puzzle in the recent TSL qualifier. Puzzle tries to expand but gets pylon blocked, so he adds a forge and 2nd gateway. 90 seconds later he finally expands. Puzzle's gas is so delayed that warp research isn't started until 6:50.
Hwangsin follows up with a 4 gate blink all-in, (he blinks into puzzle's main, bypassing the 5 cannons at natural).
On July 03 2012 02:17 Lazermonkey wrote: I don't get why people say that this loses so hard to proxy gate. If he in-base proxies you, you will see it because of the pylon at the wall. If he proxies them at the nat or even further away you can simply wall with a forge and win, no? Obviously you don't need to let your gases finish if you don't spot anything in his base + no probe production...
Finally someone who understands me. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Why would you double gas steal an opponent with nothing in his base? He's obviously going to be proxying..
Ya, this is probebly the best response. I actually think that if you manage to double gassteal and play it correctly, you should come out ahead. The only reasons cannons/proxies works is because this strat is so new and noone really knows how you should play it out correctly.
On July 04 2012 09:37 Kharnage wrote: if i see an early scout, i immediately take 1 gas so this shit can't lose me a game. As someone pointed out, if they have done such an early scout, cutting a probe to put down 1 gas is easily justified. It's just another cheese ladder build that works against people who don't know / think about it.
I imagine this is something that you only do on Cloud Kingdom for ladder right? On any other map it makes no sense to cut a probe for early gas just because you see a 9 scout. You have enough time to react if you seem them take a gas on one side of your minerals on any other map.
On July 04 2012 19:32 0Toph wrote: For the low price of under 200 minerals you can block someone's tech by two minutes! It's brilliant!
Most players will notice the early scout and because both gases are typically across from one another, the most they should get is 1 gas geyser. They have to delay their gateway and have already cut probes, so basically now they are pretty far behind economically if they put another 75 minerals into stealing gas. See an early scout? Place one probe on hold position on your gas geyser. Voila! He can't steal it now!
It's not brilliant, just an unorthodox way to throw off your opponent that can easily be stopped by reacting properly.
On July 04 2012 19:32 0Toph wrote: For the low price of under 200 minerals you can block someone's tech by two minutes! It's brilliant!
Most players will notice the early scout and because both gases are typically across from one another, the most they should get is 1 gas geyser. They have to delay their gateway and have already cut probes, so basically now they are pretty far behind economically if they put another 75 minerals into stealing gas. See an early scout? Place one probe on hold position on your gas geyser. Voila! He can't steal it now!
It's not brilliant, just an unorthodox way to throw off your opponent that can easily be stopped by reacting properly.
Yeah pretty much this, good to know though thanks to this thread. If I didn't read it I might have lost to it instead of a cannon rush.
On July 04 2012 19:32 0Toph wrote: For the low price of under 200 minerals you can block someone's tech by two minutes! It's brilliant!
Most players will notice the early scout and because both gases are typically across from one another, the most they should get is 1 gas geyser. They have to delay their gateway and have already cut probes, so basically now they are pretty far behind economically if they put another 75 minerals into stealing gas. See an early scout? Place one probe on hold position on your gas geyser. Voila! He can't steal it now!
It's not brilliant, just an unorthodox way to throw off your opponent that can easily be stopped by reacting properly.
Gas steals are unstoppable (unless you take the gas yourself). Yes, by placing a probe next to the geyser you can prevent the opponent's probe from building the gas but if the opponent's probe does not have vision of the geyser when the build command is given it will be able to build it nonetheless. This is a strange bug.
Unfortunately, I don't remember where I learned this. It was from some TL post or a Youtube video (not Husky's video). If anyone else can find it that would be awesome. I can't get on SC2 right now and so I can't test it out to verify that it still works.
I always wondered if there was a 'correct response' to getting both of your gases stolen. This seems to be a tutorial on performing it, which to be perfectly honest doesnt take a genius to figure out. Surviving the follow up without a gas economy is something i feel like it would be worthwhile exploring as a guide - If you can legitimately play without gas it might even give PvP (potentially other matchups aswell) a new style of opening.
No wonder people did this to me. If you already have scout in their base you can do it to them. Better have a follow up, because imma get another gate fast and make a crapload of units. hope you chrono ur gate
I've also encountered this just once. When I saw my opponent taking both my gas, I took both his gas as well. He tried to pull a badly-executed cannon rush to follow-up, but it failed, so I just FE'ed while he wasted his minerals on pylons and cannons. After that point, it was pretty easy.
On July 08 2012 20:48 soapyy. wrote: I have had this done to me about 3 times. I just chrono 2 zealots and try to catch up, With the pooled money I just make gates.
How does that work out? I often find that your tech is so far behind that you can easily lose to a 4gate or any other kind of play like blink, or a robo/immortal push.
On July 08 2012 21:47 tsango wrote: I always wondered if there was a 'correct response' to getting both of your gases stolen. This seems to be a tutorial on performing it, which to be perfectly honest doesnt take a genius to figure out. Surviving the follow up without a gas economy is something i feel like it would be worthwhile exploring as a guide - If you can legitimately play without gas it might even give PvP (potentially other matchups aswell) a new style of opening.
The only reason you can play gasless and expand safely (with a forge) is because your opponent spent a lot of money sending an early probe, and taking both gasses. Trying to do it vs a regular opponent who is opening standard, they would be able to have a 4gate warp prism / 3gate blink with obs so much faster than a double gas stealer. I don't see it working unless you somehow are able to keep complete map control and deny your opponent of scouting. It's an interesting idea, I just don't see how it would work.
Well when using this strategy when your opponent was gonna go A but after double gas steal he would have to go B sometimes cheese. Getting the early stalker would be a big advantage and this could work on small maps as your stalker will be able to get there fast enough to do some damage.
Someone did this to me today, and i menaged to get really ahead with my opening regardless. Here is a replay for anyone who needs an idea of how to deal with it:
http://drop.sc/222818 Both players are masters EU. I'm the red protoss in top right. After i sniped first obs, i didn't expect him to have another one already with his army that's why he caught me off guard and did alot of demage, but i was ahead enaugh and it didn't really matter as he got rolled over anyway.
I really disagree with those saying you should FFE as a response to this. First off, your opponent could just pylon block if he sees your forge(which he will). But even if he respondes in the wrong way it still a tough situation to be in. You will not be able to scout him unless you get lucky with a probe. And if you can't scout him it basically becomes a rock paper scissor game at this point. If he goes for gateway agression like 4-gate you will need a gazillion cannons to be able to deffend. But if he goes for some tech to avoid cannons like warpprism or blink, you will die if you invested in all these cannons.
EPT
