EPT[G] PvP Double Gas Steal - Page 3
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
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quillian
United States318 Posts
I tried this a while back. this is extremely vulnerable to 2 gate proxies, as you don't scout for them with your 9 probe (if you do, you will arrive late and he will get a gas up) and you delay your gateway significantly. Even if you arrive, see no gateway in their base and abort the gas steal to get your own gate, you will be really late. your first zealot won't be done in time for their 2 rolling in. Additionally, even with a normal build he can totally break your front with a zealot/cannon push, as you will be really behind in army and tech. basically, as soon as you gas steal, he can chrono zealot and drop a forge, then set up a proxy at your natural, cannon in range of your ramp and walk up with zealots. you can't get your own zealots/cannons out as fast as he can due to the investment in assimilators. The idea is cute, but ultimately a risky cheese that ends up being kinda boring. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
 I wouldn't say someone who 9scouts 100% does cheese, but since his economy is already behind yours, I think following his probe wont hurt you that badly and its better to follow it then to lose to cheese  | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On July 03 2012 01:02 Sated wrote: OP appears to send his Probe after his 9 Pylon in the video. Is this really that suspicious to you? I always scout after my first Pylon in every match-up... EDIT: Thinking about it, I suppose that I wouldn't get to the opponent's base as early as OP does because I scout around my base for proxy Pylons/Forges/Gateways etc. before sending the Probe across the map. But I still don't find that timing suspicious. Yeah that should still be suspicious. If he scouts on nine you can afford to scout around for proxies and such, as he'd have lost more mining time than your scout probe ever will. | ||
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Tyler73123
67 Posts
On July 03 2012 01:19 quillian wrote: Nice, thorough guide, though not new. I tried this a while back. this is extremely vulnerable to 2 gate proxies, as you don't scout for them with your 9 probe (if you do, you will arrive late and he will get a gas up) and you delay your gateway significantly. Even if you arrive, see no gateway in their base and abort the gas steal to get your own gate, you will be really late. your first zealot won't be done in time for their 2 rolling in. Additionally, even with a normal build he can totally break your front with a zealot/cannon push, as you will be really behind in army and tech. basically, as soon as you gas steal, he can chrono zealot and drop a forge, then set up a proxy at your natural, cannon in range of your ramp and walk up with zealots. you can't get your own zealots/cannons out as fast as he can due to the investment in assimilators. The idea is cute, but ultimately a risky cheese that ends up being kinda boring. I said in the video that I should've scouted around for proxies and that I just didn't in this game. It would've only taken me an extra few seconds to scout around for it. With the wall off I had, there's no way it could've been an in-base proxy. Also, because I send the probe after my 9 pylon, if I nothing in his base I still have some time to throw down a forge. As far as a zealot/cannon push, I said it's extremely important to be constantly scouting and checking around your natural and 3rd for and proxies. It would be really hard to lose to a zealot & cannon push, as you can just get a forge of your own, and you have a wall off. I recommend you try this build on ladder or with a friend before jumping to conclusions on what can hard counter it and that it's risky, because it's not really. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On July 03 2012 00:12 Tyler73123 wrote: I get scouted that early most of the time (in masters) and usually none of that happens. I think people just scout after 9 to make sure they're not getting cannon rushed / proxied. What is a standard time for scouting in pvp? After gate? I used to do it after core but now I do it after assimilator if I 13 gate and after my 16 pylon if I 12 gate, scouting all proxy locations first before heading to opponent base. Scouting earlier is a waste imo, since finding no proxies is just as telling as scouting their base to see buildings. If you don't find proxies, you basically know they are doing 1 of 3 builds that are really all the same. | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
On July 03 2012 01:45 Tyler73123 wrote: I said in the video that I should've scouted around for proxies and that I just didn't in this game. It would've only taken me an extra few seconds to scout around for it. With the wall off I had, there's no way it could've been an in-base proxy. Also, because I send the probe after my 9 pylon, if I nothing in his base I still have some time to throw down a forge. As far as a zealot/cannon push, I said it's extremely important to be constantly scouting and checking around your natural and 3rd for and proxies. It would be really hard to lose to a zealot & cannon push, as you can just get a forge of your own, and you have a wall off. I recommend you try this build on ladder or with a friend before jumping to conclusions on what can hard counter it and that it's risky, because it's not really. I have tried it. It can work when people don't know wtf to do, but dies to a good 2 gate proxy and is possible but tricky vs well executed counter cheese after the gas steal. If you scout thoroughly for proxy gates (they are often at 3rd or 4th) you will arrive at their base pretty late. Even in the video you got there at 13. much more delay and he could have gotten his assimilator without even changing his build. Zealot cannon push is in fact very hard to hold, because you forge will be later than theirs. They will build two pylons, one at the top of your ramp, one at the bottom. The top one will mess up your wall and give him vision while he warps cannons and proxy gates on the low ground.your forge will be way behind his. Your zealot will not be done in time to kill the first cannon, and pulling probes won't really work if his placement is good. best case scenario you lose your wall and turtle at your nexus, and hope to win on a tech rush. I've not tried this on the new maps you suggest as it was a few seasons ago, so I'm not sure how they work for proxy placement. All that said, I'm sure you can get a lot of wins on ladder, as with any unusual cheese, as people won't know how to play it out. It's not really a sustainable or interesting strategy in the long term though. edit - typo | ||
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Tyler73123
67 Posts
On July 03 2012 01:59 quillian wrote: I have tried it. It can work when people don't know wtf to do, but dies to a good 2 gate proxy and is possible but tricky vs well executed counter cheese after the gas steal. If you scout thoroughly for proxy gates (they are often at 3rd or 4th) you will arrive at their base pretty late. Even in the video you got there at 13. much more delay and he could have gotten his assimilator without even changing his build. Zealot cannon push is in fact very hard to hold, because you forge will be later than theirs. They will build two pylons, one at the top of your ramp, one at the bottom. The top one will mess up your wall and give him vision while he warps cannons and proxy gates on the low ground.your forge will be way behind his. Your zealot will not be done in time to kill the first cannon, and pulling probes won't really work if his placement is good. best case scenario you lose your wall and turtle at your nexus, and hope to win on a tech rush. I've not tried this on the new maps you suggest as it was a few seasons ago, so I'm not sure how they work for proxy placement. All that said, I'm sure you can get a lot of wins on ladder, as with any unusual cheese, as people won't know how to play it out. It's not really a sustainable or interesting strategy in the long term though. edit - typo People usually don't proxy at your 3rd or 4th, because it's not much benefit if the zealots are that far away. It's usually in base (wall off can spot incoming probe though) or at the natural. Natural only takes a few seconds to scout, if even that. I want to test the zealot & cannon rush because I've never ran into this and to me it doesn't seem like that big of a problem if you scout it. I wouldn't call double gas steal cheese either, it's a pretty reactionary build that takes a lot of skill and decision making to pull off. | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
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quillian
United States318 Posts
On July 03 2012 02:07 Tyler73123 wrote: People usually don't proxy at your 3rd or 4th, because it's not much benefit if the zealots are that far away. It's usually in base (wall off can spot incoming probe though) or at the natural. Natural only takes a few seconds to scout, if even that. I want to test the zealot & cannon rush because I've never ran into this and to me it doesn't seem like that big of a problem if you scout it. I wouldn't call double gas steal cheese either, it's a pretty reactionary build that takes a lot of skill and decision making to pull off. on cloud kingdom? Proxy gates at 3rd or 4th are really common. I see that way more than in base, really. It's off the common scout path but close enough to do serious damage if they don't react. it's a gamble, you are betting your first few minerals and delaying your build significantly to inflict tech damage NOW. Lots of cheese takes skill. some even have well developed metagames and macro transitions. It's the blind up front risk for a potential large early payoff that makes it cheese. | ||
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Tyler73123
67 Posts
On July 03 2012 02:17 Lazermonkey wrote: I don't get why people say that this loses so hard to proxy gate. If he in-base proxies you, you will see it because of the pylon at the wall. If he proxies them at the nat or even further away you can simply wall with a forge and win, no? Obviously you don't need to let your gases finish if you don't spot anything in his base + no probe production... Finally someone who understands me. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Why would you double gas steal an opponent with nothing in his base? He's obviously going to be proxying.. | ||
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Shottaz
United Kingdom414 Posts
It's definately not the way to beat it though, my opponent didnt play too well. | ||
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-Kira
352 Posts
On June 30 2012 10:31 xsnac wrote: if you see 9 scout ,why not putting a probe near gas gayser to block gas stealing ? you are economicaly ahead anyway since he pulled the probe to scout at 9 . isant that a easier way to deal with it ? I love how the perfect response gets ignored and people continue to talk about their shit. looks like TL is not a place for strategy talk... | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
It's just another cheese ladder build that works against people who don't know / think about it. | ||
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Lysergic
United States355 Posts
Hwangsin follows up with a 4 gate blink all-in, (he blinks into puzzle's main, bypassing the 5 cannons at natural). Guess who wins? HwangSin vs Puzzle - Cloud Kingdom /thread | ||
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0Toph
Canada8 Posts
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
On July 03 2012 02:27 Tyler73123 wrote: Finally someone who understands me. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Why would you double gas steal an opponent with nothing in his base? He's obviously going to be proxying.. Ya, this is probebly the best response. I actually think that if you manage to double gassteal and play it correctly, you should come out ahead. The only reasons cannons/proxies works is because this strat is so new and noone really knows how you should play it out correctly. | ||
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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