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On June 13 2012 07:04 storkman wrote:Show nested quote +I dont get it, why everybody tries to name a build after themselves. I am also quite sure i saw bomber do such a build on antiga. His siege mode finished when the zerg units knocked on the door, really nice timing. (cant remember when, gsl or gstl i think) Why I named this build after myself is: A) I created this post B) I made my own build i didn't study one of his replays C) I stated above that i'm sure that many people already do a version of this build so i just created my own version and posted it for you local team liquideans. Show nested quote +A very similar build was covered in one of Day[9]'s dailies a while ago; it was a build that Bomber used in the past.
If I recall, the idea was to hold off all aggression with tanks and go for a 2-2 doom push.
Personally, I stopped using this build after playing it for a month. The way I see it, this build is just a safe transition into the late game while hitting a timing attack. I think letting a zerg power drones and creep without being threatened will leave a terran in a tough situation despite being armed with a strong 2-2 timing (this is just a stylistic thing, I don't like butting heads with a zerg that has a powered economy). However, if zerg goes for some kind of bane/roach bust, you'll be in a commanding lead afterwards and should win the game rather easily. I remember this bomber build but I really have no clue what was built and what was done  With the new queen buff i find it rather impossible to stop the creep spread. There really is no opening in the early-mid game in which you can do damage to justify the cost. I've played zergs who will get 6-12 queens(fitzyhere) and if you go for any hellion build you are completely behind. So if you can't deny creep with hellions what do you make? There really is no unit i can see being able to gain enough map control other than banshees to successfully deny creep. Big mid-game/late-game pushes are the only way i can see playing this match up due to the great power of the queens and their 20 range. And yes if he does try to bust me i win 99% of the time.
Following the standard CC hellion opening, you can get cloak banshee which is not usually a bad investment. You can deny creep, threaten drone line, and gain tower control. While making the banshee you can put down the 3rd CC which won't be all that much slower than siege mode + 3rd CC. Granted, you have to be more vigilant of the roach/bane bust. Against mass queens, you can also threaten a marine hellion timing off 2 base and depending on how much you commit you can outright win the game (worked against Fitzy, although, he has refined his build since then and delays his 3rd base, which probably works in your favour).
I guess my point is that siege mode + 3 CC build really forces you down one path and that's the 2-2 timing attack. You don't have the flexibility of the standard 2 CC hellion build, where you can be creative and have multiple angles to make threats (marine-hellion pressure, hellion-banshee pressure, marauder-hellion all-in, etc.). Sure, it leaves you more susceptible to an early game bust, but you have options and you can keep your opponent guessing.
I'm not at all discrediting this build. Like I said, I used it for a month with moderate success, but to each their own. Stylistically, I'm much more comfortable having some sort of map presence and keeping my opponent in doubt.
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Following the standard CC hellion opening, you can get cloak banshee which is not usually a bad investment. You can deny creep, threaten drone line, and gain tower control. While making the banshee you can put down the 3rd CC which won't be all that much slower than siege mode + 3rd CC. Granted, you have to be more vigilant of the roach/bane bust. Against mass queens, you can also threaten a marine hellion timing off 2 base and depending on how much you commit you can outright win the game (worked against Fitzy, although, he has refined his build since then and delays his 3rd base, which probably works in your favour).
I guess my point is that siege mode + 3 CC build really forces you down one path and that's the 2-2 timing attack. You don't have the flexibility of the standard 2 CC hellion build, where you can be creative and have multiple angles to make threats (marine-hellion pressure, hellion-banshee pressure, marauder-hellion all-in, etc.). Sure, it leaves you more susceptible to an early game bust, but you have options and you can keep your opponent guessing.
I'm not at all discrediting this build. Like I said, I used it for a month with moderate success, but to each their own. Stylistically, I'm much more comfortable having some sort of map presence and keeping my opponent in doubt.
Whenever i do the standard cc hellion opening i end up getting busted and die 90 percent of the time. They hit me once i have 4 hellions and one banshee. Every game this happens ill auto lose because 1 scv pretty much worth 3 drones because it takes so long to actually get any rolling.
And how the 3 cc isn't flexible ill leave it to the guys like you who do marine-hellion, hellion-banshee, rauder-hellion to keep the zerg on their toes.
And tvz i don't mind letting z's get what comp they want i'm pretty comfortable mid-late game so doing a fast 3 cc build should pretty much tell you my style of play.
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I really don't like that you called this your build, whether you made it up on your own or not, bomber, mvp, and plenty of other Korean (and Foreign) terrans have been doing this build with minor variations for months now.
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What is the plan against a traditional ling/bane bust? No hellions after a double gas makes this way too risky. Same goes for ~6-7 minute roach/ling all-ins like the one Stephano used against Polt at MLG recently.
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Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I looked over the marine-tank build a couple of times, and I don't see where you're supposed to take a third.
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I really don't like that you called this your build, whether you made it up on your own or not, bomber, mvp, and plenty of other Korean (and Foreign) terrans have been doing this build with minor variations for months now.
I created my own B.O from my own replays so this would be my build other plays have their versions where I actually got the idea but what do you want me to call this? Bomber,mvp,korean and foreign terran fast 3 cc seige tank?
What is the plan against a traditional ling/bane bust? No hellions after a double gas makes this way too risky. Same goes for ~6-7 minute roach/ling all-ins like the one Stephano used against Polt at MLG recently.
With good bunker placement you should be able to hold ling/bane busts but a 6-7 min mark rush is pretty hard to hold no matter what build you do but all i can tell you is if you go for a double gas after cc into reactor hellions you will auto die to these builds.
Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I looked over the marine-tank build a couple of times, and I don't see where you're supposed to take a third.
I actually didn't have that in there but i normally take my third once i get my first two medivacs so around the 10-11 min mark
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http://drop.sc/196956 Here's my attempt at the mech transition of your build. I think if I pushed fast, I could've done a lot more damage but I wasn't sure his roach count so I didn't want to unsiege.
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The bl transition is what killed you ;( just stay aware of when he takes hive so you can get an extra 2-3 starports to get those vikings going. Also when you saw he had neural parasite i think its more beneficial to get 4-5 tanks to snipe those infestors then rest thors. Last thing! When you go for the heavy thor build you have to have 2 reactor factories making hellions because you really need a buffer unit between your thors and his roach
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You guys get mass vikings against broods when going mech? Seems like they would just get fungaled/be useless against the ultra tech switch. I prefer going more thor heavy with only 4-6 tanks, 16+ hellions, a raven and a few banshees.
I usually do the 1 rax FE double gas into hellion banshee, but it is prone to losing to the roach bling bust. This is a nice substitute for when scouting early aggression 
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I actually if i scout broods get like 10 thor and about 10 vikings with 10 or so hellions and whatever tank i ahve left, it really matters on their comp if they still have lots of roach ill get raven and vikings with more tanks but against pure air thor viking is king
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Just tested this build and it loses to the ling bling all in
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Just tested this build and it loses to the ling bling all in
Just added replay of a 22 drone bust so if you can't hold it work on your micro :D
<3
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On June 13 2012 13:02 storkman wrote:Show nested quote +I really don't like that you called this your build, whether you made it up on your own or not, bomber, mvp, and plenty of other Korean (and Foreign) terrans have been doing this build with minor variations for months now. I created my own B.O from my own replays so this would be my build other plays have their versions where I actually got the idea but what do you want me to call this? Bomber,mvp,korean and foreign terran fast 3 cc seige tank?
Why not call it 3 cc fast tank, just because you made up your own build doesn't make it yours if someone did it before you, in this case a long time before you.
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I've been doing this a lot because of how good queens are at denying hellions. Hellions against a good zerg are completely worthless for map control, for example, DRG had his creep spread across all the way through ESV cloud kingdom to the point it was at the 4th base of the Terran in 12 minutes despite MKP going hellions.
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On June 14 2012 06:14 Jesushooves wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 13:02 storkman wrote:I really don't like that you called this your build, whether you made it up on your own or not, bomber, mvp, and plenty of other Korean (and Foreign) terrans have been doing this build with minor variations for months now. I created my own B.O from my own replays so this would be my build other plays have their versions where I actually got the idea but what do you want me to call this? Bomber,mvp,korean and foreign terran fast 3 cc seige tank? Why not call it 3 cc fast tank, just because you made up your own build doesn't make it yours if someone did it before you, in this case a long time before you.
Way to clutter a good post with retarded arguements.
I've used this build and had a few zergs just outright leave after failed roach busts etc ^^
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Love how half the thread is whining about the name.
About the BO, I think it misses when you put the TL on the factory. (or I'm blind)
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On June 14 2012 06:20 imMUTAble787 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 06:14 Jesushooves wrote:On June 13 2012 13:02 storkman wrote:I really don't like that you called this your build, whether you made it up on your own or not, bomber, mvp, and plenty of other Korean (and Foreign) terrans have been doing this build with minor variations for months now. I created my own B.O from my own replays so this would be my build other plays have their versions where I actually got the idea but what do you want me to call this? Bomber,mvp,korean and foreign terran fast 3 cc seige tank? Why not call it 3 cc fast tank, just because you made up your own build doesn't make it yours if someone did it before you, in this case a long time before you. Way to clutter a good post with retarded arguements. I've used this build and had a few zergs just outright leave after failed roach busts etc ^^
It isn't retarded to make a valid point, there are way too many threads where people are naming builds after themselves when they didn't make anything new.
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On June 14 2012 06:46 Jesushooves wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 06:20 imMUTAble787 wrote:On June 14 2012 06:14 Jesushooves wrote:On June 13 2012 13:02 storkman wrote:I really don't like that you called this your build, whether you made it up on your own or not, bomber, mvp, and plenty of other Korean (and Foreign) terrans have been doing this build with minor variations for months now. I created my own B.O from my own replays so this would be my build other plays have their versions where I actually got the idea but what do you want me to call this? Bomber,mvp,korean and foreign terran fast 3 cc seige tank? Why not call it 3 cc fast tank, just because you made up your own build doesn't make it yours if someone did it before you, in this case a long time before you. Way to clutter a good post with retarded arguements. I've used this build and had a few zergs just outright leave after failed roach busts etc ^^ It isn't retarded to make a valid point, there are way too many threads where people are naming builds after themselves when they didn't make anything new.
Why does it matter?
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I've been doing this a lot because of how good queens are at denying hellions. Hellions against a good zerg are completely worthless for map control, for example, DRG had his creep spread across all the way through ESV cloud kingdom to the point it was at the 4th base of the Terran in 12 minutes despite MKP going hellions .
This is exactly why i started doing this faster third build because as more zergs start to learn that creep and queens are good there is no way to deny it. Most zergs go to atleast 4 queens and the ones who are smart are getting around 10 because if zergs weren't aware queen,ultra,infestor,ling is pretty much impossible to kill if they can actually transfuse.
Way to clutter a good post with retarded arguements.
I've used this build and had a few zergs just outright leave after failed roach busts etc ^^
Grats on using it correctly :D have fun beating up zergs!
It isn't retarded to make a valid point, there are way too many threads where people are naming builds after themselves when they didn't make anything new.
So if a build makes marines do you want me to name it after the first person to ever make a marine? Really arguing over a name when i make my own build and have my own transitions is silly. If all my reps were of mkp doing it and i name it after myself then you could complain but since they are all my replays and all my builds i think i can take credit for this thread and build.
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About the BO, I think it misses when you put the TL on the factory. (or I'm blind)
I said resume tank production so i added a make techlab ending to that sorry for not saying that
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EPT
