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Intro: Hello everyone it is me Storkman! So are you tired of every TvZ either getting roach/bane busted or them just taking a super quick third because our beloved reactor hellions pretty much can't deny anything? Well here is my simple and sweet solution to both problems! Through this guide ill teach you a new build i've been working on and yes i'm sure that many pro's do something like this but this is my build and my approach to how to use it.
Basic: With this build you go for a fast siege tank to secure your natural to be soon third, with this quick tank you are able to shut down quick zerg pressure hitting after the 8 min mark.
Before you read Build orders the numbers next to the buildings or units is how many you should have not how many you are making!
B.O for Mech transition:
+ Show Spoiler +10 depo(1)
12 rack(1)
15 OC(1)
(Scout with scv that finishes making Barrack)
16 cc(2)
17 depo(2)
19 double refinery(2)
23 OC(2)
23 Factory(1)
24 reactor on rack(1)
24 bunker at natural
29 cc(3)
31 depo(3)
33 tank(1) and siege mode
38 depo(4)
48 depo(5)
Around 40 supply if you don't transfer workers at the start you should reach maximum saturation so rally to natural.
51 Double Armory(2)
51 OC(3)
52 Double gas at natural(4)
53 depo(6)
After second tank switch factory with barracks and start reactor hellions
54 factory(2)
60 depo(7)
62 Plus one attack and armor for vehicles
When factory number 2 finishes make a thor(around 71 supplies)
78 factory(3)
80 factory(4)
81 supply(10 min markish) take third
82 engineering bay(incase of muta)
82 double supply depo(9)
87 depo(10)
89 double refinery at third(6)
96 factory(5)
(should be adding tech-labs on all factory's when they finish so you end up with 4 on tech 1 on reactor)
102 double depo(12)
105 depo(13)
116 Plus two attack and armor for vehicles
When I play mech i normally go up to 4-6 thors max if they are roach(more if muta) then i start tank production. If you follow this build perfectly you should max out at the 15 min mark with 77 scvs, 19 hellions, 5 thors, 15 tanks, and 10 rines and 3-3 just now starting.
B.O for Marine Tank Transition:
+ Show Spoiler +10 depo(1)
12 rack(1)
15 OC(1)
(Scout with scv that finishes making Barrack)
16 cc(2)
17 depo(2)
19 double refinery(2)
23 OC(2)
23 Factory(1)
24 reactor on rack(1)
24 bunker at natural
29 cc(3)
31 depo(3)
33 tank(1) and siege mode
38 depo(4)
48 depo(5)
Around 40 supply if you don't transfer workers at the start you should reach maximum saturation so rally to natural.
51 OC(3)
52 double engineering bay(2)
52 swap rack and factory and begin stim
60 refinery(3)
60 plus one damage and armor for bio
60 depo(6)
63 depo(7)
71 starport(1)
74 depo(8)
74 add 2 racks(3)
80 add another rack(4)
81 another rack(5)
81 depo(9)
84 armory(1)
85 starport on reactor
88 resume tank production(make a techlab on factory)
Add reactors to all barracks when they finish
95 triple depo(12)
96 combat shield
96 start plus 2 attack and armor
101 double supply depo(14)
110 plus one vehicle attack
(Add depos as necessary)
151 add on 3 more racks(8) and one factory(2)(after you have your first 5 barracks with reactors start adding on techlabs)
15 min mark maxed out with 78 scvs, 4 hellions, 8 medivacs, 7 tanks, 68 marines 8 racks 2 factorys 1 starport 3-3 attacks coming and plus 2 vehicles with a 4th under construction
Scouting and defending the roach/bane bust
When i play vrs zerg i normally scout with my scv that has completed my initial barracks. With this scout your first trying to find his base and second scout his gas. Whether you see if he has gas or not this build will still be performed the same except you should have a sense of urgency to get up the proper defence(making a bunker and creating a wall with depos). Also another important factor is tank placement. Ideally you want to have them on the high ground so zergs can't just run up and kill them.
Lately I have been making a wall by my ramp as displayed below:
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
Why do i do my initial wall like this?
A: Less Depos required to wall in my bunker
B: If the zerg tries to run up my ramp he will have to sit there and get killed by my bunker.
C: Its much easier to get my scvs into position to repair it
Why use this build?
For me personally(High masters 1200-1300 points) in 90 percent of my TvZ the zerg will try to bust me so by using this build I can easily clean up their busts and even if i lose some Scvs with the 3 mules and 3 scvs at a time i can easily get my economy back on track
The 2-2 Timing:
This for awhile has been the big thing you always see players trying to hit and by following this build you will hit it spot on and as an added bonus have even more tanks! This timing is very crucial because it allows you to go back onto the map clean up some creep and poke at his fourth while you get a fourth of your own. Why does the 1-0 on the vehicles matter? Well without plus one attack if the zerg got armor upgrades your tanks will no longer be able to one shot zerglings.
Good Maps for this build:
Ohana
Cloud Kingdom
Antiga
Entombed
Condemned
Good maps for mech transition:
Shakuras
Antiga
Cloud Kingdom
Ohana
Q&A:
+ Show Spoiler +Q: Why make hellions after your first two tanks?
A: When you get busted what is their natural follow up? Either another bane bust or a flood of lings and quite frankly hellions are good against both of these. These hellions if they don't bust you also allow you to snipe a few drones if they are playing greedy or just gain back some map control.
If you have any questions you can pm me! More replays to come
Replays:
Bust:
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(T)StorkMan_vs_(Z)DGiTSilky/20030
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)SirBonjwa_vs_(T)StorkMan/20034
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(T)StorkMan_vs_(Z)Spec/20038
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)cGFaent_vs_(T)StorkMan/20073
No Bust:
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)ZingerXPn_vs_(T)StorkMan/20048
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Pgbz_vs_(T)StorkMan/20031
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=265334
Mech:
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)xOSerenity_vs_(T)StorkMan/20072
Fast Bane busts:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=265253#/replay_overview
Games Against people who are good:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=265317
+ Show Spoiler +Lost internet but it shows that if you do go for the macro game you aren't really behind if he takes a fast third
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This build is good against fast pressure from zerg, but what about when the zerg takes a fast third while spreading creep?
By the 2/2 timing zerg can have 60% of the map covered with creep and a 4th base coming up, with enough of an army to defend, leaving you in a tight spot because they'll probably get hive tech soon, or already have it.
Why discount hellions because of the queen buff? Hellions help scout, take map control, can potentially deny a third for a while, and can help against ling/bling all ins if they are properly controlled.
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Did you watch mlg? If you go hellions after you expo your hellions come so late generally they can do nothing. The only time hellions did any damage was when they had banshee support and if your banshees also do no damage you sure are in a rut. With this build it doesnt matter if they bust you or not you still have a fast third and a timing attack to hit at 15 mins. Really if you go delayed hellions they can take a fast third anyways because hellions take 8 years to kill a hatch
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And if your main problem is having the map covered in creep then learn to split better and it won't be such an issue :D
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Hellions aren't meant to do damage. They delay creep spread, make sure zerg doesn't have complete map control, scout, help against all ins.
If you think that splitting better is the only solution to creep spread, then your fundamental understanding of the matchup is flawed.
You're presuming that the zerg is going to all in. Any good zerg with good scouting will see what you're doing and absolutely crush you because you don't do anything for at least 13-14 minutes.
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hellions after a gasless expo (including cc first and 3cc variations) can still be used for defense against zerg aggression as well as for scouting. this is why players still get them.
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Hellions after gas less are okay for defence but most busts now adays are very roach heavy... Hellions don't kill roaches
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Last replay he busted me i went for timing and he did cover half the map in creep still win 
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You should designate the replays as mech or marine tank. I have been really struggling vs Z now that early hellions are useless and Z has no reason NOT to make 4 queens so banshee typically fails hard. I am excited to try this.
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This is a really good build, tanks can help you defend vs early game all-ins pretty ez, but you need to have your timings really tight, siege mode comes usually as the zerg is on the front of your base with the roach all in or the 2 base bling ling allin. I usually go for 1 rax gas less expo, make 1 bunker and sometimes go for 3 cc before double gassing or after i double gas. I usually don't stop rine production and sometimes go for like 12 rines of that rax while getting siege mode, because if they go for fast gas , it usually means aggression and you have to put down 2 or 3 bunkers to help defend till siege is done and tank is out. Anyways, this has been my build vs Z since a long time and i always go for mech, when double armoring, YES, the build is greedy and Z can do w,e they want, but a mech army with 3-3 at the 15 to 18 min mark is pretty scary. I have to say that i been having a really good success with it while meching, the key is to scout for the hive tech and spire timing, and to turret down where drops can come. The problem with the hellion opening is that you get destroyed by early all ins, yes, they are good vs lings, but not vs a ton of ling bling. You can go hellion when they don't go for fast gas, but if you see fast gas ,go for siege, is the best choice so far in my opinion.
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BTW, I can provide you with some mech reps if you want. Master T NA-1k last season. Just in case you need something that looks like your build but going mech.
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I used to mech a ton but i have felt that in the pro scene rine/tank is so much more dominant so there must be a reason for them to go it. You can go double gas after 3 cc but i feel like super fast busts are hard to stop
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That's why you put down 3 bunkers if you scout the aggression and wall off your natural too. Lots of people try to do that to me, i mostly lose when i try to go for hellions tho or i don't scout properly. With 3 oc is not really that critical losing some scvs, usually i build another OC after the bust lol and literally im always even with the Z eco if they go for fast 3. Yeah, rine tank is pretty good .
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I dont get it, why everybody tries to name a build after themselves. I am also quite sure i saw bomber do such a build on antiga. His siege mode finished when the zerg units knocked on the door, really nice timing. (cant remember when, gsl or gstl i think)
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A very similar build was covered in one of Day[9]'s dailies a while ago; it was a build that Bomber used in the past.
If I recall, the idea was to hold off all aggression with tanks and go for a 2-2 doom push.
Personally, I stopped using this build after playing it for a month. The way I see it, this build is just a safe transition into the late game while hitting a timing attack. I think letting a zerg power drones and creep without being threatened will leave a terran in a tough situation despite being armed with a strong 2-2 timing (this is just a stylistic thing, I don't like butting heads with a zerg that has a powered economy). However, if zerg goes for some kind of bane/roach bust, you'll be in a commanding lead afterwards and should win the game rather easily.
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I dont get it, why everybody tries to name a build after themselves. I am also quite sure i saw bomber do such a build on antiga. His siege mode finished when the zerg units knocked on the door, really nice timing. (cant remember when, gsl or gstl i think)
Why I named this build after myself is:
A) I created this post
B) I made my own build i didn't study one of his replays
C) I stated above that i'm sure that many people already do a version of this build so i just created my own version and posted it for you local team liquideans.
A very similar build was covered in one of Day[9]'s dailies a while ago; it was a build that Bomber used in the past.
If I recall, the idea was to hold off all aggression with tanks and go for a 2-2 doom push.
Personally, I stopped using this build after playing it for a month. The way I see it, this build is just a safe transition into the late game while hitting a timing attack. I think letting a zerg power drones and creep without being threatened will leave a terran in a tough situation despite being armed with a strong 2-2 timing (this is just a stylistic thing, I don't like butting heads with a zerg that has a powered economy). However, if zerg goes for some kind of bane/roach bust, you'll be in a commanding lead afterwards and should win the game rather easily.
I remember this bomber build but I really have no clue what was built and what was done
With the new queen buff i find it rather impossible to stop the creep spread. There really is no opening in the early-mid game in which you can do damage to justify the cost. I've played zergs who will get 6-12 queens(fitzyhere) and if you go for any hellion build you are completely behind. So if you can't deny creep with hellions what do you make? There really is no unit i can see being able to gain enough map control other than banshees to successfully deny creep. Big mid-game/late-game pushes are the only way i can see playing this match up due to the great power of the queens and their 20 range.
And yes if he does try to bust me i win 99% of the time.
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This looks like a good solid build. I know when I face Terrans on the ladder and they go for greedy fast 3cc builds without fast Siege I just Roach/Bane/Ling bust em but something like this would definitely be able to survive or deter that kind of build and force a macro game. You would likely give up a lot of early map presence with this build but vs Queen heavy openings that wouldn't matter too much I guess since you trade off with fast 3cc.
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i prefer getting the 3rd cc before refineries. allows you to go up to 2 rax at the same time with bunks. only problem is that upgrades feel really late and this type of build only works on maps where 3rd is close to nat (antiga shipyard, taldarim etc)
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A good majority of my TvZ games 9 min mark i get that big old roach bane bust and me personally I feel like you have to get 2-3 bunkers to handle it properly or you can get fast tanks and hold it easily i mean it's whatever you prefer but i feel like fast tanks just allows you to play more defensive without having to put money into bunkers and extra barracks before you really need them.
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On June 13 2012 07:04 storkman wrote:Show nested quote +I dont get it, why everybody tries to name a build after themselves. I am also quite sure i saw bomber do such a build on antiga. His siege mode finished when the zerg units knocked on the door, really nice timing. (cant remember when, gsl or gstl i think) Why I named this build after myself is: A) I created this post B) I made my own build i didn't study one of his replays C) I stated above that i'm sure that many people already do a version of this build so i just created my own version and posted it for you local team liquideans. Show nested quote +A very similar build was covered in one of Day[9]'s dailies a while ago; it was a build that Bomber used in the past.
If I recall, the idea was to hold off all aggression with tanks and go for a 2-2 doom push.
Personally, I stopped using this build after playing it for a month. The way I see it, this build is just a safe transition into the late game while hitting a timing attack. I think letting a zerg power drones and creep without being threatened will leave a terran in a tough situation despite being armed with a strong 2-2 timing (this is just a stylistic thing, I don't like butting heads with a zerg that has a powered economy). However, if zerg goes for some kind of bane/roach bust, you'll be in a commanding lead afterwards and should win the game rather easily. I remember this bomber build but I really have no clue what was built and what was done With the new queen buff i find it rather impossible to stop the creep spread. There really is no opening in the early-mid game in which you can do damage to justify the cost. I've played zergs who will get 6-12 queens(fitzyhere) and if you go for any hellion build you are completely behind. So if you can't deny creep with hellions what do you make? There really is no unit i can see being able to gain enough map control other than banshees to successfully deny creep. Big mid-game/late-game pushes are the only way i can see playing this match up due to the great power of the queens and their 20 range. And yes if he does try to bust me i win 99% of the time.
Following the standard CC hellion opening, you can get cloak banshee which is not usually a bad investment. You can deny creep, threaten drone line, and gain tower control. While making the banshee you can put down the 3rd CC which won't be all that much slower than siege mode + 3rd CC. Granted, you have to be more vigilant of the roach/bane bust. Against mass queens, you can also threaten a marine hellion timing off 2 base and depending on how much you commit you can outright win the game (worked against Fitzy, although, he has refined his build since then and delays his 3rd base, which probably works in your favour).
I guess my point is that siege mode + 3 CC build really forces you down one path and that's the 2-2 timing attack. You don't have the flexibility of the standard 2 CC hellion build, where you can be creative and have multiple angles to make threats (marine-hellion pressure, hellion-banshee pressure, marauder-hellion all-in, etc.). Sure, it leaves you more susceptible to an early game bust, but you have options and you can keep your opponent guessing.
I'm not at all discrediting this build. Like I said, I used it for a month with moderate success, but to each their own. Stylistically, I'm much more comfortable having some sort of map presence and keeping my opponent in doubt.
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Following the standard CC hellion opening, you can get cloak banshee which is not usually a bad investment. You can deny creep, threaten drone line, and gain tower control. While making the banshee you can put down the 3rd CC which won't be all that much slower than siege mode + 3rd CC. Granted, you have to be more vigilant of the roach/bane bust. Against mass queens, you can also threaten a marine hellion timing off 2 base and depending on how much you commit you can outright win the game (worked against Fitzy, although, he has refined his build since then and delays his 3rd base, which probably works in your favour).
I guess my point is that siege mode + 3 CC build really forces you down one path and that's the 2-2 timing attack. You don't have the flexibility of the standard 2 CC hellion build, where you can be creative and have multiple angles to make threats (marine-hellion pressure, hellion-banshee pressure, marauder-hellion all-in, etc.). Sure, it leaves you more susceptible to an early game bust, but you have options and you can keep your opponent guessing.
I'm not at all discrediting this build. Like I said, I used it for a month with moderate success, but to each their own. Stylistically, I'm much more comfortable having some sort of map presence and keeping my opponent in doubt.
Whenever i do the standard cc hellion opening i end up getting busted and die 90 percent of the time. They hit me once i have 4 hellions and one banshee. Every game this happens ill auto lose because 1 scv pretty much worth 3 drones because it takes so long to actually get any rolling.
And how the 3 cc isn't flexible ill leave it to the guys like you who do marine-hellion, hellion-banshee, rauder-hellion to keep the zerg on their toes.
And tvz i don't mind letting z's get what comp they want i'm pretty comfortable mid-late game so doing a fast 3 cc build should pretty much tell you my style of play.
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I really don't like that you called this your build, whether you made it up on your own or not, bomber, mvp, and plenty of other Korean (and Foreign) terrans have been doing this build with minor variations for months now.
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What is the plan against a traditional ling/bane bust? No hellions after a double gas makes this way too risky. Same goes for ~6-7 minute roach/ling all-ins like the one Stephano used against Polt at MLG recently.
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Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I looked over the marine-tank build a couple of times, and I don't see where you're supposed to take a third.
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I really don't like that you called this your build, whether you made it up on your own or not, bomber, mvp, and plenty of other Korean (and Foreign) terrans have been doing this build with minor variations for months now.
I created my own B.O from my own replays so this would be my build other plays have their versions where I actually got the idea but what do you want me to call this? Bomber,mvp,korean and foreign terran fast 3 cc seige tank?
What is the plan against a traditional ling/bane bust? No hellions after a double gas makes this way too risky. Same goes for ~6-7 minute roach/ling all-ins like the one Stephano used against Polt at MLG recently.
With good bunker placement you should be able to hold ling/bane busts but a 6-7 min mark rush is pretty hard to hold no matter what build you do but all i can tell you is if you go for a double gas after cc into reactor hellions you will auto die to these builds.
Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I looked over the marine-tank build a couple of times, and I don't see where you're supposed to take a third.
I actually didn't have that in there but i normally take my third once i get my first two medivacs so around the 10-11 min mark
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http://drop.sc/196956 Here's my attempt at the mech transition of your build. I think if I pushed fast, I could've done a lot more damage but I wasn't sure his roach count so I didn't want to unsiege.
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The bl transition is what killed you ;( just stay aware of when he takes hive so you can get an extra 2-3 starports to get those vikings going. Also when you saw he had neural parasite i think its more beneficial to get 4-5 tanks to snipe those infestors then rest thors. Last thing! When you go for the heavy thor build you have to have 2 reactor factories making hellions because you really need a buffer unit between your thors and his roach
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You guys get mass vikings against broods when going mech? Seems like they would just get fungaled/be useless against the ultra tech switch. I prefer going more thor heavy with only 4-6 tanks, 16+ hellions, a raven and a few banshees.
I usually do the 1 rax FE double gas into hellion banshee, but it is prone to losing to the roach bling bust. This is a nice substitute for when scouting early aggression 
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I actually if i scout broods get like 10 thor and about 10 vikings with 10 or so hellions and whatever tank i ahve left, it really matters on their comp if they still have lots of roach ill get raven and vikings with more tanks but against pure air thor viking is king
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Just tested this build and it loses to the ling bling all in
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Just tested this build and it loses to the ling bling all in
Just added replay of a 22 drone bust so if you can't hold it work on your micro :D
<3
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On June 13 2012 13:02 storkman wrote:Show nested quote +I really don't like that you called this your build, whether you made it up on your own or not, bomber, mvp, and plenty of other Korean (and Foreign) terrans have been doing this build with minor variations for months now. I created my own B.O from my own replays so this would be my build other plays have their versions where I actually got the idea but what do you want me to call this? Bomber,mvp,korean and foreign terran fast 3 cc seige tank?
Why not call it 3 cc fast tank, just because you made up your own build doesn't make it yours if someone did it before you, in this case a long time before you.
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I've been doing this a lot because of how good queens are at denying hellions. Hellions against a good zerg are completely worthless for map control, for example, DRG had his creep spread across all the way through ESV cloud kingdom to the point it was at the 4th base of the Terran in 12 minutes despite MKP going hellions.
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On June 14 2012 06:14 Jesushooves wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 13:02 storkman wrote:I really don't like that you called this your build, whether you made it up on your own or not, bomber, mvp, and plenty of other Korean (and Foreign) terrans have been doing this build with minor variations for months now. I created my own B.O from my own replays so this would be my build other plays have their versions where I actually got the idea but what do you want me to call this? Bomber,mvp,korean and foreign terran fast 3 cc seige tank? Why not call it 3 cc fast tank, just because you made up your own build doesn't make it yours if someone did it before you, in this case a long time before you.
Way to clutter a good post with retarded arguements.
I've used this build and had a few zergs just outright leave after failed roach busts etc ^^
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Love how half the thread is whining about the name.
About the BO, I think it misses when you put the TL on the factory. (or I'm blind)
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On June 14 2012 06:20 imMUTAble787 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 06:14 Jesushooves wrote:On June 13 2012 13:02 storkman wrote:I really don't like that you called this your build, whether you made it up on your own or not, bomber, mvp, and plenty of other Korean (and Foreign) terrans have been doing this build with minor variations for months now. I created my own B.O from my own replays so this would be my build other plays have their versions where I actually got the idea but what do you want me to call this? Bomber,mvp,korean and foreign terran fast 3 cc seige tank? Why not call it 3 cc fast tank, just because you made up your own build doesn't make it yours if someone did it before you, in this case a long time before you. Way to clutter a good post with retarded arguements. I've used this build and had a few zergs just outright leave after failed roach busts etc ^^
It isn't retarded to make a valid point, there are way too many threads where people are naming builds after themselves when they didn't make anything new.
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On June 14 2012 06:46 Jesushooves wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 06:20 imMUTAble787 wrote:On June 14 2012 06:14 Jesushooves wrote:On June 13 2012 13:02 storkman wrote:I really don't like that you called this your build, whether you made it up on your own or not, bomber, mvp, and plenty of other Korean (and Foreign) terrans have been doing this build with minor variations for months now. I created my own B.O from my own replays so this would be my build other plays have their versions where I actually got the idea but what do you want me to call this? Bomber,mvp,korean and foreign terran fast 3 cc seige tank? Why not call it 3 cc fast tank, just because you made up your own build doesn't make it yours if someone did it before you, in this case a long time before you. Way to clutter a good post with retarded arguements. I've used this build and had a few zergs just outright leave after failed roach busts etc ^^ It isn't retarded to make a valid point, there are way too many threads where people are naming builds after themselves when they didn't make anything new.
Why does it matter?
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I've been doing this a lot because of how good queens are at denying hellions. Hellions against a good zerg are completely worthless for map control, for example, DRG had his creep spread across all the way through ESV cloud kingdom to the point it was at the 4th base of the Terran in 12 minutes despite MKP going hellions .
This is exactly why i started doing this faster third build because as more zergs start to learn that creep and queens are good there is no way to deny it. Most zergs go to atleast 4 queens and the ones who are smart are getting around 10 because if zergs weren't aware queen,ultra,infestor,ling is pretty much impossible to kill if they can actually transfuse.
Way to clutter a good post with retarded arguements.
I've used this build and had a few zergs just outright leave after failed roach busts etc ^^
Grats on using it correctly :D have fun beating up zergs!
It isn't retarded to make a valid point, there are way too many threads where people are naming builds after themselves when they didn't make anything new.
So if a build makes marines do you want me to name it after the first person to ever make a marine? Really arguing over a name when i make my own build and have my own transitions is silly. If all my reps were of mkp doing it and i name it after myself then you could complain but since they are all my replays and all my builds i think i can take credit for this thread and build.
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About the BO, I think it misses when you put the TL on the factory. (or I'm blind)
I said resume tank production so i added a make techlab ending to that sorry for not saying that
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Nice guide, though I don't like anything that relies too heavily on Siege Tanks or Marines without some Marauders anymore because you have to leapfrog extremely well and extremely quickly, or risk getting caught unsieged, or take too long and get killed by 7 Broodlords or even 3-5 Ultralisks with Zergling/Infestor support, as Marines are extremely weak against them as fully upgraded Ultralisks take 1 damage from +2 Marines, and I believe that there are some builds out there that get 3-3 by 15 minutes, if I'm not mistaken.
How do you deal with these fast hive+Ultralisk/Infestor/Zergling double evo strategies?
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On June 14 2012 06:46 Jesushooves wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 06:20 imMUTAble787 wrote:On June 14 2012 06:14 Jesushooves wrote:On June 13 2012 13:02 storkman wrote:I really don't like that you called this your build, whether you made it up on your own or not, bomber, mvp, and plenty of other Korean (and Foreign) terrans have been doing this build with minor variations for months now. I created my own B.O from my own replays so this would be my build other plays have their versions where I actually got the idea but what do you want me to call this? Bomber,mvp,korean and foreign terran fast 3 cc seige tank? Why not call it 3 cc fast tank, just because you made up your own build doesn't make it yours if someone did it before you, in this case a long time before you. Way to clutter a good post with retarded arguements. I've used this build and had a few zergs just outright leave after failed roach busts etc ^^ It isn't retarded to make a valid point, there are way too many threads where people are naming builds after themselves when they didn't make anything new.
It's not a valid point. Did the OP claim to be the sole originator of this style/build/variation ? Nope. So kindly cease posting your nonsense and say something relevant to the thread.
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Nice guide, though I don't like anything that relies too heavily on Siege Tanks or Marines without some Marauders anymore because you have to leapfrog extremely well and extremely quickly, or risk getting caught unsieged, or take too long and get killed by 7 Broodlords or even 3-5 Ultralisks with Zergling/Infestor support, as Marines are extremely weak against them as fully upgraded Ultralisks take 1 damage from +2 Marines, and I believe that there are some builds out there that get 3-3 by 15 minutes, if I'm not mistaken.
How do you deal with these fast hive+Ultralisk/Infestor/Zergling double evo strategies?
I don't think i've ever seen a 3-3 15 minute zerg build
I really think the only way to stop double evo startegies is getting double upgrades yourself. I really don't have a problem against infestors as long as you are good at splitting they shouldn't really be a problem and lastly i feel like Ultra are defiantly the weaker choice of hive tech, broods are much more difficult to deal with.
and also i like to add on tech-labs to all my racks after my initial 4-5 reactored ones
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Added replay of the build against coLFireZerg lost because i dced but it's fairly interesting to watch
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Is this build still working pretty well for you storkman?
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Dude amazing guide. I definitely am going to try this on ladder. As for all the people whining about the name: Shut up. Thank you.
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How does this build deal with infestors? And if my opponent goes for ultras should I be making marauders or just more tanks? Thanks for the amazing guide ill try it out
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United States4883 Posts
This is the build LastShadow did in Red Bull Battlegrounds, is it not?
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Sorry that I don't have the replay handy, but I definitely like this build - Gretorp shut down my roach/ling/baneling build twice with a similar fast 3cc/tank style.
If Zerg scouted or knew you were doing this build, though, wouldn't it be pretty easy for them to soar ahead in macro knowing you can't execute early-midgame pressure? I know you get a fast 3rd CC, but theoretically Zerg could fully saturate 3 bases with a 4th base on the way before producing a single unit.
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I do a build that if I read your bo right, is pretty much an identical open. 1rax expo with expo before 2nd depot into double gas, reactor on rax, tanks immediately, 3rd oc sometime around this (reactor means you bank some minerals), and then double upgrades. I also put a bunker behind the mineral line at the Zergs 3rd with my first few marines (clear tower -> head to natural -> retreat to bunker at 3rd) since I don't do any pressure.
Whenever the Zerg doesn't allin me though I just die to their econ (when they allin me it's perfect). Ling/infestor/ultra is really the hardest for me because it comes out in time to easily destroy my 2/2 1/0 push (having to push through creep and go slowly). Vs broods I can take a 4th and drop everywhere cause it's so slow. Even with their delayed 3rd (if they're smart, they just expand to their 4th early really), I can't keep up. I'm low masters-NA as a reference.
Although my micro isn't the best and I literally have 1fps in any battle after the 5 minute mark so that might contribute to why I lose.
Just my experiences, just read your build for the first time today.
Also, I was reminded about this build when I saw IdrA vs the terran in his group in Homestory cup (Terran went CC first into tanks into 3rd). Naturally, IdrA completely rolled him, and right now IdrA isn't really a autowin vs anyone (although he was probably favored, I can't argue that).
What I've been meaning to do is if my scouting SCV doesn't see the Zerg take gas, to go hellions, and if I do, to build tanks. The hellions (with a bunker at 3rd) can kill tons of lings. But I don't ladder much so I've not faced a Zerg in a while that didn't take an early gas. This is a pretty crude indicator (if they double gas after SCV leaves or something) but I think it's better then blindly going tanks.
Although ironically vs a Julyzerg bling bust (build natural, take gas, no queen, super fast banelings), you probably want hellions instead of tanks because they come out quicker. But I've never faced that so idk really.
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Is this build still working pretty well for you storkman?
I haven't laddered in awhile(3-4 weeks been busy) so i'm not quite sure what the current meta-game is but if they are still busty then yes it still has some strength and if they are still taking fast thirds then yes it still has staying power but then it becomes more dependent on how you play/micro to be able to come out on top.
Dude amazing guide. I definitely am going to try this on ladder. As for all the people whining about the name: Shut up. Thank you.
Thank you I hope it has worked for you :D
How does this build deal with infestors? And if my opponent goes for ultras should I be making marauders or just more tanks? Thanks for the amazing guide ill try it out
From my experience your build doesn't decide whether you can handle infestors or not it really comes down to your micro mechanics because infestors are really strong no matter what kind of build you do, if you watched my game against firezerg i started to go more rauder/thor heavy if you get marauders and thors his ultras become cheese :D
This is the build LastShadow did in Red Bull Battlegrounds, is it not?
Created this thread before Red Bull Battlegrounds so he probably stole my build;) haha but like i've said before this build isn't my original idea i've seen people do their own variants so I decided to try it out and come up with my own build.
Sorry that I don't have the replay handy, but I definitely like this build - Gretorp shut down my roach/ling/baneling build twice with a similar fast 3cc/tank style.
If Zerg scouted or knew you were doing this build, though, wouldn't it be pretty easy for them to soar ahead in macro knowing you can't execute early-midgame pressure? I know you get a fast 3rd CC, but theoretically Zerg could fully saturate 3 bases with a 4th base on the way before producing a single unit.
This can be a problem but after my second tank I like to get around 4 hellions(when i switch my add-ons between my rack and factory) and if they are playing super greedy I can normally squeeze some drone kills.
I do a build that if I read your bo right, is pretty much an identical open. 1rax expo with expo before 2nd depot into double gas, reactor on rax, tanks immediately, 3rd oc sometime around this (reactor means you bank some minerals), and then double upgrades. I also put a bunker behind the mineral line at the Zergs 3rd with my first few marines (clear tower -> head to natural -> retreat to bunker at 3rd) since I don't do any pressure.
Whenever the Zerg doesn't allin me though I just die to their econ (when they allin me it's perfect). Ling/infestor/ultra is really the hardest for me because it comes out in time to easily destroy my 2/2 1/0 push (having to push through creep and go slowly). Vs broods I can take a 4th and drop everywhere cause it's so slow. Even with their delayed 3rd (if they're smart, they just expand to their 4th early really), I can't keep up. I'm low masters-NA as a reference.
Although my micro isn't the best and I literally have 1fps in any battle after the 5 minute mark so that might contribute to why I lose.
Just my experiences, just read your build for the first time today.
Also, I was reminded about this build when I saw IdrA vs the terran in his group in Homestory cup (Terran went CC first into tanks into 3rd). Naturally, IdrA completely rolled him, and right now IdrA isn't really a autowin vs anyone (although he was probably favored, I can't argue that).
What I've been meaning to do is if my scouting SCV doesn't see the Zerg take gas, to go hellions, and if I do, to build tanks. The hellions (with a bunker at 3rd) can kill tons of lings. But I don't ladder much so I've not faced a Zerg in a while that didn't take an early gas. This is a pretty crude indicator (if they double gas after SCV leaves or something) but I think it's better then blindly going tanks.
Although ironically vs a Julyzerg bling bust (build natural, take gas, no queen, super fast banelings), you probably want hellions instead of tanks because they come out quicker. But I've never faced that so idk really.
Bunker at their third your crazy :D so few units in the early game that's extremely dangerous to do.
What is so hard about the TvZ matchup these days is the zergs once they get ahead they just get stupidly ahead to a point where we terrans just kind of bend over and cry  doing this build yes you might not win the game with this push but you have 3-3 on the way and you have a safely secured third so yes it might be hard to push out but if you can micro correctly and maybe sneak in a drop while pushing you are in great shape even if the only thing you did was trade armies.
Like i said before if a zerg out classes the terran they gain a huge lead immediately I mean just think of the DRG mlg games it looked like a masters playing a bronze player. It can be hard telling by the gas so if you do go hellions they could easily just go double gas and do a roach bane bust so with your scouting scv you really can't accomplish much other than knowing if its a faster bust.
I have a 22 drone bust replay but busts that come that quick the thing that really matters is your bunker positioning and whether you can get some scvs over there to repair it in time, even if you tried to go hellions they won't be out in time( or you'll have 2) so me personally staying on the course of tanks and having your third up is much much better especially when they have done such a cheesy bust.
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On July 07 2012 09:16 TangSC wrote:
Sorry that I don't have the replay handy, but I definitely like this build - Gretorp shut down my roach/ling/baneling build twice with a similar fast 3cc/tank style.
If Zerg scouted or knew you were doing this build, though, wouldn't it be pretty easy for them to soar ahead in macro knowing you can't execute early-midgame pressure? I know you get a fast 3rd CC, but theoretically Zerg could fully saturate 3 bases with a 4th base on the way before producing a single unit.
this. and ive tried something along these lines quite a few times before. but once he came into tank range instead of suiciding everything he just turned back with his roach bane ling and made drones instead and got his third and infestors. i mean its good for getting your third but it forces you to play defensive rest of the game i think. hard to make any aggressive pushes once he gets set up.
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this. and ive tried something along these lines quite a few times before. but once he came into tank range instead of suiciding everything he just turned back with his roach bane ling and made drones instead and got his third and infestors. i mean its good for getting your third but it forces you to play defensive rest of the game i think. hard to make any aggressive pushes once he gets set up.
I mean if you aren't comfortable microing/pushing through creep then this isn't a build for you, yes it will kill a bust build but at the same time if he doesn't bust you, you better be comfortable playing late game or pick a different build
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Storkman:
The Three games you played where the opponent's didn't bust, The zergs played extreamly bad, I mean
First off: your supply was higher then them the entire game, thats no because of the 3rd CC, even when you do this build the zerg should still be ahead.
In the game vs ErrorBM Your 2/2 push hit at like 1530 and just stoped at the center of the map , until unupgraded ultras took it out.
In the game vs pBGz its not even relevent , this guy is platnium , playing in masters because he's zerg. (I'm really not being a douche, if people would watch the game they would see this)
In the game vs Zinger- The guy was so low on supply the entire game, and then attacks into your seiged up position, and your 2/2 push was non existant.
The thing is , yes your build holds off the early busts, and then wins because early bust builds are pretty all in . But I really don't think seige tanks are the answer to TvZ . If a zerg doesnt busts and macros well , your 2/2 push will be crushed, your can't play this passively. Sure it will work sometimes when the zerg doesnt play that great, but when ever i use this extreamly passive style the 2/2 push just gets halted by creep , and eventually his hive tech comes out and cleans it up. With no infastructure for the hive timing, its really just not the answer at the moment.
You give up all you aggression when you get your tanks playing passivily against a race that has larva inject and insane production , will never make sense. I've seen amazing players play greeder then this but it doesn't work. If you sit back until 1530 . They should have hive, and they should be morphing their brood lords, or making Ultras. No amount of micro matters when you have marine tank vs hive tech.
Look what happened agains errorBm- the guy pushed UP A RAMP , with 2/2 on his ultra (No plateing), into your seiged position. Your a good player, the build has its flaws and I wouldn't recommend it.
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I have been practicing this build multiple times against the AI to get a feeling about it,and then started to use it on ladder.
I am a top 8 platinum player and for me this just not seem to be working. Most of the time the zerg will bust through me with roach, ling, bling, and at that time you have 10 marines and a tank, which doesn't seem to hold it. I have been playing this build 10 times on ladder, and have not made it to midgame due to busts. I think you power too much stuff, and sacrifing too much for this one tank. I would not recommend it at least at my level of play.
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On July 15 2012 01:39 Shoebawka47 wrote:
Storkman:
The Three games you played where the opponent's didn't bust, The zergs played extreamly bad, I mean
First off: your supply was higher then them the entire game, thats no because of the 3rd CC, even when you do this build the zerg should still be ahead.
In the game vs ErrorBM Your 2/2 push hit at like 1530 and just stoped at the center of the map , until unupgraded ultras took it out.
In the game vs pBGz its not even relevent , this guy is platnium , playing in masters because he's zerg. (I'm really not being a douche, if people would watch the game they would see this)
In the game vs Zinger- The guy was so low on supply the entire game, and then attacks into your seiged up position, and your 2/2 push was non existant.
The thing is , yes your build holds off the early busts, and then wins because early bust builds are pretty all in . But I really don't think seige tanks are the answer to TvZ . If a zerg doesnt busts and macros well , your 2/2 push will be crushed, your can't play this passively. Sure it will work sometimes when the zerg doesnt play that great, but when ever i use this extreamly passive style the 2/2 push just gets halted by creep , and eventually his hive tech comes out and cleans it up. With no infastructure for the hive timing, its really just not the answer at the moment.
You give up all you aggression when you get your tanks playing passivily against a race that has larva inject and insane production , will never make sense. I've seen amazing players play greeder then this but it doesn't work. If you sit back until 1530 . They should have hive, and they should be morphing their brood lords, or making Ultras. No amount of micro matters when you have marine tank vs hive tech.
Look what happened agains errorBm- the guy pushed UP A RAMP , with 2/2 on his ultra (No plateing), into your seiged position. Your a good player, the build has its flaws and I wouldn't recommend it.
I definitely agree with most of this post - I don't think zero aggression until lategame should ever work vs a competent zerg. But I like the idea of this build - as Idra mentioned, one of the answers to the 6-queen build is to out-greed your opponent, and the problem with this approach is that it dies to the roach-baneling bust, which has only started to work since Terrans stopped making tanks. I definitely think bio is the better way to play standard (ling-infestor) TvZ - it's more robust, and you can trade well, and snipe well, but as Sheth mentioned a LONG time ago on his stream, the bust only works if Terran doesn't make a single tank. So without GOING tanks, I feel like the answer lies somewhere in making a couple of tanks, and the trick is how to do this without putting your upgrades / tech behind too far. I haven't quite worked that part out yet.
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Storkman:
The Three games you played where the opponent's didn't bust, The zergs played extreamly bad, I mean
First off: your supply was higher then them the entire game, thats no because of the 3rd CC, even when you do this build the zerg should still be ahead.
In the game vs ErrorBM Your 2/2 push hit at like 1530 and just stoped at the center of the map , until unupgraded ultras took it out.
In the game vs pBGz its not even relevent , this guy is platnium , playing in masters because he's zerg. (I'm really not being a douche, if people would watch the game they would see this)
In the game vs Zinger- The guy was so low on supply the entire game, and then attacks into your seiged up position, and your 2/2 push was non existant.
The thing is , yes your build holds off the early busts, and then wins because early bust builds are pretty all in . But I really don't think seige tanks are the answer to TvZ . If a zerg doesnt busts and macros well , your 2/2 push will be crushed, your can't play this passively. Sure it will work sometimes when the zerg doesnt play that great, but when ever i use this extreamly passive style the 2/2 push just gets halted by creep , and eventually his hive tech comes out and cleans it up. With no infastructure for the hive timing, its really just not the answer at the moment.
You give up all you aggression when you get your tanks playing passivily against a race that has larva inject and insane production , will never make sense. I've seen amazing players play greeder then this but it doesn't work. If you sit back until 1530 . They should have hive, and they should be morphing their brood lords, or making Ultras. No amount of micro matters when you have marine tank vs hive tech.
Look what happened agains errorBm- the guy pushed UP A RAMP , with 2/2 on his ultra (No plateing), into your seiged position. Your a good player, the build has its flaws and I wouldn't recommend it.
Since the hellion nerf for me personally I really feel like the openings for terrans have been killed, going hellion is a huge waste of minerals, going hellion/banshee after cc just seems like suicide because if they do bust the zergs just laugh and flood you with units.
People will say you can scout a bust coming but you really can't they can just go double gas after you scout leaves and bust you in the exact same way.
I think until some kind of buff/nerf hits terran or zerg the terran openings will stay extremely limited and zergs will still have the option to do w/e they want
I have been practicing this build multiple times against the AI to get a feeling about it,and then started to use it on ladder.
I am a top 8 platinum player and for me this just not seem to be working. Most of the time the zerg will bust through me with roach, ling, bling, and at that time you have 10 marines and a tank, which doesn't seem to hold it. I have been playing this build 10 times on ladder, and have not made it to midgame due to busts. I think you power too much stuff, and sacrifing too much for this one tank. I would not recommend it at least at my level of play.
The sad thing about this is it explains the whole tvz matchup , to do this build you have to execute it perfectly or you WILL die to busts but on the other hand you get knocked around by busts doing any other build or you just lose in the late game if you don't have a faster third or a super strong timing 9-11 min mark.
I definitely agree with most of this post - I don't think zero aggression until lategame should ever work as a competent zerg. But I like the idea of this build - as Idra mentioned, one of the answers to the 6-queen build is to out-greed your opponent, and the problem with this approach is that it dies to the roach-baneling bust, which has only started to work since Terrans stopped making tanks. I definitely think bio is the better way to play standard (ling-infestor) TvZ - it's more robust, and you can trade well, and snipe well, but as Sheth mentioned a LONG time ago on his stream, the bust only works if Terran doesn't make a single tank. So without GOING tanks, I feel like the answer lies somewhere in making a couple of tanks, and the trick is how to do this without putting your upgrades / tech behind too far. I haven't quite worked that part out yet.
The point is how do you put on aggression on a competent zerg, you really don't have to overcommit to the tank portion of this build, you can make the two then transition into medivacs,ups,and more racks. These two tanks I feel can play a huge role in defensive infrastructure for us terran players because whenever I play bio and I lose a major engagement next thing i know there is a billion lings/banes running at me so these 2 hefty tanks with good walls can actually help you all throughout the game just a thought though still haven't been able to even look at starcraft
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In the current meta i would not see me go straight into tank, you need to put pressure on the zerg and hellion/banshee is the best answer if transitioning to standard marine/tank. ( and with good simcity you can actually hold zerg busts )
Bio is also here, it requires more skill overall but it definitely works.
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In the current meta i would not see me go straight into tank, you need to put pressure on the zerg and hellion/banshee is the best answer if transitioning to standard marine/tank. ( and with good simcity you can actually hold zerg busts )
Bio is also here, it requires more skill overall but it definitely works.
If he goes gas first hellion/banshee just auto dies
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I don't see why gaz first mean auto dies sorry
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Other greed builds dont just die to a ling bane roach all in , If you micro well , you can hold it with hellions and a few marauders with nice bunker placement. After that its an auto win . Its hard to learn and can be frustrating , but the only way to be good at tvz is put the burden of micro on your shoulders and believe you can hold an all in if it comes , also , sending in a sacrifical hellion is a good way to see if its coming (Third base, obviously a worse version of the all in , should be holdable ) I take any amount of lings above 10-12 as an all in before 6.00).
IdrA may say that its a good idea to out greed the zerg, but he's wrong. That never will work , and its a really silly idea. Zerg has the super army. You can't stay passive . Listening to IdrA on SOTG was completly wrong , people give this guy too much respect. People have tried to out greed zerg alot , it never works , and the later the game goes on the harder your micro gets.
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On July 17 2012 00:51 storkman wrote:The point is how do you put on aggression on a competent zerg, you really don't have to overcommit to the tank portion of this build, you can make the two then transition into medivacs,ups,and more racks. These two tanks I feel can play a huge role in defensive infrastructure for us terran players because whenever I play bio and I lose a major engagement next thing i know there is a billion lings/banes running at me so these 2 hefty tanks with good walls can actually help you all throughout the game just a thought though still haven't been able to even look at starcraft
I agree with the second part of this post - don't overcommit to tanks if your opponent is going infestor-ling (obv vs ling-muta you should be going marine-tank) - but you should be putting aggression on a competent zerg the way you always have been - move out, have good map awareness (don't just whine about how you can't get it, force the issue), position well, split well. Just because the zerg has 6 queens and a faster opening doesn't mean your army suddenly autoloses to theirs. MMM is still the hardiest composition I can think of, and you have to be scrappy with it.
On July 17 2012 10:51 Shoebawka47 wrote:
Other greed builds dont just die to a ling bane roach all in , If you micro well , you can hold it with hellions and a few marauders with nice bunker placement. After that its an auto win . Its hard to learn and can be frustrating , but the only way to be good at tvz is put the burden of micro on your shoulders and believe you can hold an all in if it comes , also , sending in a sacrifical hellion is a good way to see if its coming (Third base, obviously a worse version of the all in , should be holdable ) I take any amount of lings above 10-12 as an all in before 6.00).
IdrA may say that its a good idea to out greed the zerg, but he's wrong. That never will work , and its a really silly idea. Zerg has the super army. You can't stay passive . Listening to IdrA on SOTG was completly wrong , people give this guy too much respect. People have tried to out greed zerg alot , it never works , and the later the game goes on the harder your micro gets.
Please don't post in this thread if you don't know what you're talking about. If greedy builds didn't die so easily to roach/ling/bane allin Terrans wouldn't be having the problems they're having, and Idra is, and always will be, more knowledgeable and far better than you at SC.
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the reason alot of people do banshee is because banshees can both defend and apply pressure, tanks cannot. I used to do a build like this, if the zerg allins or attacks you get ahead, if he goes for quick 4 bases you autolose unless he messes up. This build was alot better in the old metagame where zerg took 3th at 7-8 minutes, but a reaction to this would be hatch pool hatch and have 3 saturated bases at around 9-10 minutes. where he can then take a 4th and and start hive while you are struggling to get up your infrastructure enough to support 3 base economy and max out.
Also this will delay upgrades quite a bit for bio unless you get ebays right after third, which will delay rax a bit.
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I don't see why gaz first mean auto dies sorry
Faster gas means faster bust which means you have 2-4 hellions and 3 marines so it means you auto die
the reason alot of people do banshee is because banshees can both defend and apply pressure, tanks cannot. I used to do a build like this, if the zerg allins or attacks you get ahead, if he goes for quick 4 bases you autolose unless he messes up. This build was alot better in the old metagame where zerg took 3th at 7-8 minutes, but a reaction to this would be hatch pool hatch and have 3 saturated bases at around 9-10 minutes. where he can then take a 4th and and start hive while you are struggling to get up your infrastructure enough to support 3 base economy and max out.
Also this will delay upgrades quite a bit for bio unless you get ebays right after third, which will delay rax a bit.
Yes banshee can both defend and apply pressure but for defensive purposes they really aren't that strong, 2 shots to kill 1 ling 4-8 for one roach. By the time your banshee kills his units your whole base will be dead.
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On July 17 2012 14:53 BoggieMan wrote:
the reason alot of people do banshee is because banshees can both defend and apply pressure, tanks cannot. I used to do a build like this, if the zerg allins or attacks you get ahead, if he goes for quick 4 bases you autolose unless he messes up. This build was alot better in the old metagame where zerg took 3th at 7-8 minutes, but a reaction to this would be hatch pool hatch and have 3 saturated bases at around 9-10 minutes. where he can then take a 4th and and start hive while you are struggling to get up your infrastructure enough to support 3 base economy and max out.
Also this will delay upgrades quite a bit for bio unless you get ebays right after third, which will delay rax a bit.
You're thinking incorrectly - it's a different kind of pressure that Banshees apply. The point of applying pressure as Terran in the early game is to force your opponent to make units instead of drones. If you're using banshees, it has a different effect - you force them to pull their queens from creeping, and maybe drop 1 spore at each base, but they don't need to use larvae on anything else. When I played zerg, anytime I saw Banshees coming, I just reminded myself, "The counter to Banshees is queens and drones," and I mashed down the D key while microing queens. When you see fast banshees, you know that the most you'll see coming at you is marines in the early game, and those can be dealt with when you see them moving out - basically, a zerg can drone up unafraid if he sees fast banshee, and just be careful with his queens.
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You're thinking incorrectly - it's a different kind of pressure that Banshees apply. The point of applying pressure as Terran in the early game is to force your opponent to make units instead of drones. If you're using banshees, it has a different effect - you force them to pull their queens from creeping, and maybe drop 1 spore at each base, but they don't need to use larvae on anything else. When I played zerg, anytime I saw Banshees coming, I just reminded myself, "The counter to Banshees is queens and drones," and I mashed down the D key while microing queens. When you see fast banshees, you know that the most you'll see coming at you is marines in the early game, and those can be dealt with when you see them moving out - basically, a zerg can drone up unafraid if he sees fast banshee, and just be careful with his queens.
Vega I really like all your replies they are all very well thought out and well true. Many people just think banshees are great but in fact all they do is force drones and queens which really aren't the answer because all it will do is once your banshees are gone speed up his creep spread and with his quick 60 drones just win the game. With the hellion nerf terran really has to find a new unit that can shut down queens and until something is buffed or queens are nerfed terran is pretty limited on their options.
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great work stork. ive been struggling with zerg lately. the build is great. fend off early pushes and equal on eco with solid 22 timing. it still feel a lil shaky when pushing out though, but thanks
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Hi,
I would like your opinion on how the uber creep your letting the Z have screws your 2-2 timing, because thats my everyday problem with marine tank passive play. I actually switched out of this style because of how frequent before 6 mins 3rds are from the Z, thus makling early tanks uselss. I have also found that 4 rax 2 with tech lab and 2 with reactor is enough to hold any Z all in with proper sim city and micro. FYI I mainly play full bio or full mech nowadays.
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On July 18 2012 13:38 storkman wrote:
Yes banshee can both defend and apply pressure but for defensive purposes they really aren't that strong, 2 shots to kill 1 ling 4-8 for one roach. By the time your banshee kills his units your whole base will be dead.
The banshee job isnt to deal with roaches or lings, but to deal with banlings, a good FE->Hellions->banshee build, will get a banshee around 7:20 - which will be in time to defend vs roach bane allins which will hit around 8:30-9:00.
Hellions can defelect lings with good micro in choke points, and roaches can be dealt with repaired bunker.
Rushing into fast tanks, can be a great defensive build, but will let the zerg do w/e he wants, in terms of economy and expanding wide. a good zerg will even do a double FE before pool vs your build.
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On July 19 2012 18:08 dohgg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:38 storkman wrote:
Yes banshee can both defend and apply pressure but for defensive purposes they really aren't that strong, 2 shots to kill 1 ling 4-8 for one roach. By the time your banshee kills his units your whole base will be dead.
Rushing into fast tanks, can be a great defensive build, but will let the zerg do w/e he wants, in terms of economy and expanding wide. a good zerg will even do a double FE before pool vs your build.
Double FE before pool is only against CC first. I agree with all the rest though!
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I would like your opinion on how the uber creep your letting the Z have screws your 2-2 timing, because thats my everyday problem with marine tank passive play. I actually switched out of this style because of how frequent before 6 mins 3rds are from the Z, thus makling early tanks uselss. I have also found that 4 rax 2 with tech lab and 2 with reactor is enough to hold any Z all in with proper sim city and micro. FYI I mainly play full bio or full mech nowadays.
I think people try too hard to make the 2-2 push do damage, it really is just a bench mark for you to hit. The 2-2 timing gives you a time to get out on the map clean up some creep and take a fourth while 3-3 is on the way. Yes you can do damage or end the game with this timing but this 2-2 isn't a desperation attack its kind of like okay I have good ups a good unit comp lets see what you have. The more i've been looking into this build and thinking on it the more solid play would to be transfering from tanks into a mech build. Thus if the zerg busts you win, if they take a fast third you have a nice mech army that can battle all game long.
great work stork. ive been struggling with zerg lately. the build is great. fend off early pushes and equal on eco with solid 22 timing. it still feel a lil shaky when pushing out though, but thanks
Pushing out can be a little rough some times but just be aware of your surroundings so you don't get caught un-seiged or if you are afraid to move out go for some multi pronged drops. 2-2 is just a bench mark to hit it doesn't force you to do the tank push. If you think that t loses in the late game watch DRG vrs Ryung it really shows the power of Terran Late Game(www.gomtv.net code S free video)
The banshee job isnt to deal with roaches or lings, but to deal with banlings, a good FE->Hellions->banshee build, will get a banshee around 7:20 - which will be in time to defend vs roach bane allins which will hit around 8:30-9:00.
Hellions can defelect lings with good micro in choke points, and roaches can be dealt with repaired bunker.
Rushing into fast tanks, can be a great defensive build, but will let the zerg do w/e he wants, in terms of economy and expanding wide. a good zerg will even do a double FE before pool vs your build
Going reactor hellion/banshee allows zergs to do whatever they want... 6 queen build kills both of these pretty handly, all banshees do is force drones. And no zerg will go double FE before pool thats suicide
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Still I dont see how this build can defend a roach ling allin, with so few units...I have tried but equally skilled zerg players have no problems busting through, even though I have been lucky to scout it.
If anyone saw MVP vs Nestea Showmatch the same happened for MVP in 2 of the 3 with roach, ling, bling bust.
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If you watch the replays you can see it defend all-ins
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On July 20 2012 00:33 storkman wrote:
Going reactor hellion/banshee allows zergs to do whatever they want... 6 queen build kills both of these pretty handly, all banshees do is force drones. And no zerg will go double FE before pool thats suicide
Oh, and i guess by your opinion going for fast tanks? forces zerg to do what? to not do w/e they want?
I am sorry, and i dont wanna be rude, your guide is really nice and all but you and many other terrans thought they figured out the game by playing "greedy" and also "safe".
And i m sorry, theres no such thing as both greedy and safe vs zerg, tvz right now is coin flip, if you played "safe" and he deiceded to allin you, you won that coin flip, but if you played that safe and "greedy" style, the zerg will always have the abilty to outgreed you, i gave the example of double FE before pool just as an example of how greedy zergs can be when they scout terran going into turtle mode, it can also be a standard FE->pool->3rd (on 4 min).
Right now, the metgame of TvZ is kinda harsh for terran, because that coin-flip is basically decided by how the zerg wish to play it, and going greediest he can behind massing queens is probbaly the best way for him.
So terrans have 2 legitamate option behind 3cc styles, you can do these with:
1. FE->hellions-> banshee , as they are filling both aggresive and defensive jobs.
2. Fe-> walling behind raxs into a MMMs pushes. as Raxs are both good for heavy defensive walls and offensive production structures.
Unfourtnley, FE->tanks, doesnt give you any kind of offensive options - u said banshee and hellions will make a zerg laugh and drone, i say fast tanks will make him rofl and drone heavier, behind 3 hatchs on 4 min.
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This is actually very similar to a build i've been doing against zerg for a while. I do the marine tank one, with only a few small differences in build order.
It is great for dealing with busts, as long as you position things well. If he fails a bust, you've got a great advantage.
But as the guy above me said, if he doesn't all-in you and goes heavy macro, I find that I just can't keep up in macro with the zerg.
Which is why I've tried several variations of this build such as getting a starport before double engi bays, and going for banshee harass, or a second factory for hellion harassment.
But zergs can deal with harassment so effortlessly (you have to be lucky to get hellions into the mineral line, and almost all zergs get detection before you can get cloaked banshees).
Now I tend to do more 2base heavy plays, because although your still rolling the dice a bit, at least you don't have to deal with 15 infestors and brood lords.
Note: I found the 3cc marine tank build to be far more effective before the queen/overlord buffs. This is probably just because zergs are more focused on droning up (or the opposite and doing heavy all ins)
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Oh, and i guess by your opinion going for fast tanks? forces zerg to do what? to not do w/e they want?
I am sorry, and i dont wanna be rude, your guide is really nice and all but you and many other terrans thought they figured out the game by playing "greedy" and also "safe".
And i m sorry, theres no such thing as both greedy and safe vs zerg, tvz right now is coin flip, if you played "safe" and he deiceded to allin you, you won that coin flip, but if you played that safe and "greedy" style, the zerg will always have the abilty to outgreed you, i gave the example of double FE before pool just as an example of how greedy zergs can be when they scout terran going into turtle mode, it can also be a standard FE->pool->3rd (on 4 min).
Right now, the metgame of TvZ is kinda harsh for terran, because that coin-flip is basically decided by how the zerg wish to play it, and going greediest he can behind massing queens is probbaly the best way for him.
So terrans have 2 legitamate option behind 3cc styles, you can do these with:
1. FE->hellions-> banshee , as they are filling both aggresive and defensive jobs.
2. Fe-> walling behind raxs into a MMMs pushes. as Raxs are both good for heavy defensive walls and offensive production structures.
Unfourtnley, FE->tanks, doesnt give you any kind of offensive options - u said banshee and hellions will make a zerg laugh and drone, i say fast tanks will make him rofl and drone heavier, behind 3 hatchs on 4 min.
The thing is zergs have no clue what tech path you are going other than you are 1 rack expoing, if you go hellions/banshee its pretty apparent when you have hellions driving around everywhere.
You pretty much said that every build doesn't work because the coin-flip is in the zergs hands and whether he picks heads or tails you really don't know what to expect.
Zergs can go for a fast 3 hatch against hellion/banshee why not get a faster third and actually be able to hold busts easily? Maybe this build is not to many peoples liking because most people have started to play bio(I've been fooling around with Z and bio is just laughable) so then yes the tanks and the third will hurt you because playing that style its do damage or die.
For the zerg to know you are going 3 cc tanks he better turn the map hacks on :D
This is actually very similar to a build i've been doing against zerg for a while. I do the marine tank one, with only a few small differences in build order.
It is great for dealing with busts, as long as you position things well. If he fails a bust, you've got a great advantage.
But as the guy above me said, if he doesn't all-in you and goes heavy macro, I find that I just can't keep up in macro with the zerg.
Which is why I've tried several variations of this build such as getting a starport before double engi bays, and going for banshee harass, or a second factory for hellion harassment.
But zergs can deal with harassment so effortlessly (you have to be lucky to get hellions into the mineral line, and almost all zergs get detection before you can get cloaked banshees).
Now I tend to do more 2base heavy plays, because although your still rolling the dice a bit, at least you don't have to deal with 15 infestors and brood lords.
Note: I found the 3cc marine tank build to be far more effective before the queen/overlord buffs. This is probably just because zergs are more focused on droning up (or the opposite and doing heavy all ins)
If you do any build other than 3 cc you'll be miles behind the zerg in economy unless you do some damage(zerg is too greedy) so really any build that focuses on harass is like you crossing your fingers and hoping he forgot to do something.
Going later banshee/hellions will never be able to do anything because then for sure he will have his defenses secured.
Currently I feel like zerg has all the tools to kill every race extremely easily. Blizzard pretty much said okay zergs hit 60 drones 8 min mark and have 50 queens to creep the whole map and then just roll everybody until some break through miracle happens the only way for terrans to handle zergs is playing for the late-game and getting harass through drops and multi-pronged pressure while trying to build up that ultimate comp(Thor/Bc/raven/viking)
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Hi there,
Thanks for making this great guide. Always enjoy reading your guides =)
i agreed that the hellion opening is pretty non optimal nowadays but i'm debating myself whether i should go for an opening with an ability to deny zerg third (like relatively bio heavy one) or just out greed zerg with 3 CC like this build.
After watching Polt VS CoCa yesterday, i started questioning myself if out greed zerg is even an option or not.
[2012 GSTL Season 2] Play off, Ro4, Match2 - TSL.Millenium vs SlayerS_EG
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls2/vod/67622/?set=5&lang=
Polt went third CC plus double ebay without producing his first tank until 8:30. he finished +2 2 on his bio by 12:40. he was extremely greedy on his econ. he basically only had his 6 hellions and a few marines for first 10mins. he pushed shortly after his 2-2 is done and he has to push back the entire creep. Zerg got 4 bases by then and he went infestors into corrupters. managed to deny polt by seiging a few times. by the time polt arrived zerg's base corrupters were out. Game went on 15more mins but Polt got rofled at the end.
would like to see what you guys think about this and what mistakes Polt made so this greedy build didn't work out.
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Hi there, Thanks for making this great guide. Always enjoy reading your guides =) i agreed that the hellion opening is pretty non optimal nowadays but i'm debating myself whether i should go for an opening with an ability to deny zerg third (like relatively bio heavy one) or just out greed zerg with 3 CC like this build. After watching Polt VS CoCa yesterday, i started questioning myself if out greed zerg is even an option or not. [2012 GSTL Season 2] Play off, Ro4, Match2 - TSL.Millenium vs SlayerS_EG http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls2/vod/67622/?set=5&lang=Polt went third CC plus double ebay without producing his first tank until 8:30. he finished +2 2 on his bio by 12:40. he was extremely greedy on his econ. he basically only had his 6 hellions and a few marines for first 10mins. he pushed shortly after his 2-2 is done and he has to push back the entire creep. Zerg got 4 bases by then and he went infestors into corrupters. managed to deny polt by seiging a few times. by the time polt arrived zerg's base corrupters were out. Game went on 15more mins but Polt got rofled at the end. would like to see what you guys think about this and what mistakes Polt made so this greedy build didn't work out.
In todays meta-game its pretty rough for the terran because the zerg pretty much decides the pace of the game. I don't have a gsl pass but ill try my best to talk about his play from what you posted.
As terran players we can never really play as greedy as the other two races. Through our macro mechanic we sort of build up an army where as zerg and protoss just kind of spawn a quick army(larva\warpgate) so there comes a point where terran is actually too greedy and is best to stay off the map till near max. No matter how greedy terrans are with their openings they still have to find a way to distract zergs(drops) and try to make them miss as many larva injects as possible. I believe that the early-mid game pace is determined by the zerg but as late game approaches its up to the terrans to keep zergs on their toes and sneak in some damage.
I hope any of that helps can't really help too much without a gomtv pass but even if I did its really hard to judge pro players when they are so much better than you and I.
Thanks for liking my guides :D
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