How do you deal with these fast hive+Ultralisk/Infestor/Zergling double evo strategies?
[G] Storkmans 3cc Fast tank TvZ - Page 3
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
How do you deal with these fast hive+Ultralisk/Infestor/Zergling double evo strategies? | ||
imMUTAble787
United States680 Posts
On June 14 2012 06:46 Jesushooves wrote: It isn't retarded to make a valid point, there are way too many threads where people are naming builds after themselves when they didn't make anything new. It's not a valid point. Did the OP claim to be the sole originator of this style/build/variation ? Nope. So kindly cease posting your nonsense and say something relevant to the thread. | ||
storkman
United States157 Posts
Nice guide, though I don't like anything that relies too heavily on Siege Tanks or Marines without some Marauders anymore because you have to leapfrog extremely well and extremely quickly, or risk getting caught unsieged, or take too long and get killed by 7 Broodlords or even 3-5 Ultralisks with Zergling/Infestor support, as Marines are extremely weak against them as fully upgraded Ultralisks take 1 damage from +2 Marines, and I believe that there are some builds out there that get 3-3 by 15 minutes, if I'm not mistaken. How do you deal with these fast hive+Ultralisk/Infestor/Zergling double evo strategies? I don't think i've ever seen a 3-3 15 minute zerg build ![]() I really think the only way to stop double evo startegies is getting double upgrades yourself. I really don't have a problem against infestors as long as you are good at splitting they shouldn't really be a problem and lastly i feel like Ultra are defiantly the weaker choice of hive tech, broods are much more difficult to deal with. and also i like to add on tech-labs to all my racks after my initial 4-5 reactored ones | ||
storkman
United States157 Posts
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Crowned
United States368 Posts
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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Jaxtyk
United States600 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
If Zerg scouted or knew you were doing this build, though, wouldn't it be pretty easy for them to soar ahead in macro knowing you can't execute early-midgame pressure? I know you get a fast 3rd CC, but theoretically Zerg could fully saturate 3 bases with a 4th base on the way before producing a single unit. | ||
teamamerica
United States958 Posts
Whenever the Zerg doesn't allin me though I just die to their econ (when they allin me it's perfect). Ling/infestor/ultra is really the hardest for me because it comes out in time to easily destroy my 2/2 1/0 push (having to push through creep and go slowly). Vs broods I can take a 4th and drop everywhere cause it's so slow. Even with their delayed 3rd (if they're smart, they just expand to their 4th early really), I can't keep up. I'm low masters-NA as a reference. Although my micro isn't the best and I literally have 1fps in any battle after the 5 minute mark so that might contribute to why I lose. Just my experiences, just read your build for the first time today. Also, I was reminded about this build when I saw IdrA vs the terran in his group in Homestory cup (Terran went CC first into tanks into 3rd). Naturally, IdrA completely rolled him, and right now IdrA isn't really a autowin vs anyone (although he was probably favored, I can't argue that). What I've been meaning to do is if my scouting SCV doesn't see the Zerg take gas, to go hellions, and if I do, to build tanks. The hellions (with a bunker at 3rd) can kill tons of lings. But I don't ladder much so I've not faced a Zerg in a while that didn't take an early gas. This is a pretty crude indicator (if they double gas after SCV leaves or something) but I think it's better then blindly going tanks. Although ironically vs a Julyzerg bling bust (build natural, take gas, no queen, super fast banelings), you probably want hellions instead of tanks because they come out quicker. But I've never faced that so idk really. | ||
storkman
United States157 Posts
Is this build still working pretty well for you storkman? I haven't laddered in awhile(3-4 weeks been busy) so i'm not quite sure what the current meta-game is but if they are still busty then yes it still has some strength and if they are still taking fast thirds then yes it still has staying power but then it becomes more dependent on how you play/micro to be able to come out on top. Dude amazing guide. I definitely am going to try this on ladder. As for all the people whining about the name: Shut up. Thank you. Thank you I hope it has worked for you :D How does this build deal with infestors? And if my opponent goes for ultras should I be making marauders or just more tanks? Thanks for the amazing guide ill try it out From my experience your build doesn't decide whether you can handle infestors or not it really comes down to your micro mechanics because infestors are really strong no matter what kind of build you do, if you watched my game against firezerg i started to go more rauder/thor heavy if you get marauders and thors his ultras become cheese :D This is the build LastShadow did in Red Bull Battlegrounds, is it not? Created this thread before Red Bull Battlegrounds so he probably stole my build;) haha but like i've said before this build isn't my original idea i've seen people do their own variants so I decided to try it out and come up with my own build. Sorry that I don't have the replay handy, but I definitely like this build - Gretorp shut down my roach/ling/baneling build twice with a similar fast 3cc/tank style. If Zerg scouted or knew you were doing this build, though, wouldn't it be pretty easy for them to soar ahead in macro knowing you can't execute early-midgame pressure? I know you get a fast 3rd CC, but theoretically Zerg could fully saturate 3 bases with a 4th base on the way before producing a single unit. This can be a problem but after my second tank I like to get around 4 hellions(when i switch my add-ons between my rack and factory) and if they are playing super greedy I can normally squeeze some drone kills. I do a build that if I read your bo right, is pretty much an identical open. 1rax expo with expo before 2nd depot into double gas, reactor on rax, tanks immediately, 3rd oc sometime around this (reactor means you bank some minerals), and then double upgrades. I also put a bunker behind the mineral line at the Zergs 3rd with my first few marines (clear tower -> head to natural -> retreat to bunker at 3rd) since I don't do any pressure. Whenever the Zerg doesn't allin me though I just die to their econ (when they allin me it's perfect). Ling/infestor/ultra is really the hardest for me because it comes out in time to easily destroy my 2/2 1/0 push (having to push through creep and go slowly). Vs broods I can take a 4th and drop everywhere cause it's so slow. Even with their delayed 3rd (if they're smart, they just expand to their 4th early really), I can't keep up. I'm low masters-NA as a reference. Although my micro isn't the best and I literally have 1fps in any battle after the 5 minute mark so that might contribute to why I lose. Just my experiences, just read your build for the first time today. Also, I was reminded about this build when I saw IdrA vs the terran in his group in Homestory cup (Terran went CC first into tanks into 3rd). Naturally, IdrA completely rolled him, and right now IdrA isn't really a autowin vs anyone (although he was probably favored, I can't argue that). What I've been meaning to do is if my scouting SCV doesn't see the Zerg take gas, to go hellions, and if I do, to build tanks. The hellions (with a bunker at 3rd) can kill tons of lings. But I don't ladder much so I've not faced a Zerg in a while that didn't take an early gas. This is a pretty crude indicator (if they double gas after SCV leaves or something) but I think it's better then blindly going tanks. Although ironically vs a Julyzerg bling bust (build natural, take gas, no queen, super fast banelings), you probably want hellions instead of tanks because they come out quicker. But I've never faced that so idk really. Bunker at their third your crazy :D so few units in the early game that's extremely dangerous to do. What is so hard about the TvZ matchup these days is the zergs once they get ahead they just get stupidly ahead to a point where we terrans just kind of bend over and cry ![]() Like i said before if a zerg out classes the terran they gain a huge lead immediately I mean just think of the DRG mlg games it looked like a masters playing a bronze player. It can be hard telling by the gas so if you do go hellions they could easily just go double gas and do a roach bane bust so with your scouting scv you really can't accomplish much other than knowing if its a faster bust. I have a 22 drone bust replay but busts that come that quick the thing that really matters is your bunker positioning and whether you can get some scvs over there to repair it in time, even if you tried to go hellions they won't be out in time( or you'll have 2) so me personally staying on the course of tanks and having your third up is much much better especially when they have done such a cheesy bust. | ||
DougJDempsey
747 Posts
On July 07 2012 09:16 TangSC wrote: Sorry that I don't have the replay handy, but I definitely like this build - Gretorp shut down my roach/ling/baneling build twice with a similar fast 3cc/tank style. If Zerg scouted or knew you were doing this build, though, wouldn't it be pretty easy for them to soar ahead in macro knowing you can't execute early-midgame pressure? I know you get a fast 3rd CC, but theoretically Zerg could fully saturate 3 bases with a 4th base on the way before producing a single unit. this. and ive tried something along these lines quite a few times before. but once he came into tank range instead of suiciding everything he just turned back with his roach bane ling and made drones instead and got his third and infestors. i mean its good for getting your third but it forces you to play defensive rest of the game i think. hard to make any aggressive pushes once he gets set up. | ||
storkman
United States157 Posts
this. and ive tried something along these lines quite a few times before. but once he came into tank range instead of suiciding everything he just turned back with his roach bane ling and made drones instead and got his third and infestors. i mean its good for getting your third but it forces you to play defensive rest of the game i think. hard to make any aggressive pushes once he gets set up. I mean if you aren't comfortable microing/pushing through creep then this isn't a build for you, yes it will kill a bust build but at the same time if he doesn't bust you, you better be comfortable playing late game or pick a different build ![]() | ||
Shoebawka47
Canada8 Posts
The Three games you played where the opponent's didn't bust, The zergs played extreamly bad, I mean First off: your supply was higher then them the entire game, thats no because of the 3rd CC, even when you do this build the zerg should still be ahead. In the game vs ErrorBM Your 2/2 push hit at like 1530 and just stoped at the center of the map , until unupgraded ultras took it out. In the game vs pBGz its not even relevent , this guy is platnium , playing in masters because he's zerg. (I'm really not being a douche, if people would watch the game they would see this) In the game vs Zinger- The guy was so low on supply the entire game, and then attacks into your seiged up position, and your 2/2 push was non existant. The thing is , yes your build holds off the early busts, and then wins because early bust builds are pretty all in . But I really don't think seige tanks are the answer to TvZ . If a zerg doesnt busts and macros well , your 2/2 push will be crushed, your can't play this passively. Sure it will work sometimes when the zerg doesnt play that great, but when ever i use this extreamly passive style the 2/2 push just gets halted by creep , and eventually his hive tech comes out and cleans it up. With no infastructure for the hive timing, its really just not the answer at the moment. You give up all you aggression when you get your tanks playing passivily against a race that has larva inject and insane production , will never make sense. I've seen amazing players play greeder then this but it doesn't work. If you sit back until 1530 . They should have hive, and they should be morphing their brood lords, or making Ultras. No amount of micro matters when you have marine tank vs hive tech. Look what happened agains errorBm- the guy pushed UP A RAMP , with 2/2 on his ultra (No plateing), into your seiged position. Your a good player, the build has its flaws and I wouldn't recommend it. | ||
ReMoR
Denmark13 Posts
I am a top 8 platinum player and for me this just not seem to be working. Most of the time the zerg will bust through me with roach, ling, bling, and at that time you have 10 marines and a tank, which doesn't seem to hold it. I have been playing this build 10 times on ladder, and have not made it to midgame due to busts. I think you power too much stuff, and sacrifing too much for this one tank. I would not recommend it at least at my level of play. | ||
Vega62a
946 Posts
On July 15 2012 01:39 Shoebawka47 wrote: Storkman: The Three games you played where the opponent's didn't bust, The zergs played extreamly bad, I mean First off: your supply was higher then them the entire game, thats no because of the 3rd CC, even when you do this build the zerg should still be ahead. In the game vs ErrorBM Your 2/2 push hit at like 1530 and just stoped at the center of the map , until unupgraded ultras took it out. In the game vs pBGz its not even relevent , this guy is platnium , playing in masters because he's zerg. (I'm really not being a douche, if people would watch the game they would see this) In the game vs Zinger- The guy was so low on supply the entire game, and then attacks into your seiged up position, and your 2/2 push was non existant. The thing is , yes your build holds off the early busts, and then wins because early bust builds are pretty all in . But I really don't think seige tanks are the answer to TvZ . If a zerg doesnt busts and macros well , your 2/2 push will be crushed, your can't play this passively. Sure it will work sometimes when the zerg doesnt play that great, but when ever i use this extreamly passive style the 2/2 push just gets halted by creep , and eventually his hive tech comes out and cleans it up. With no infastructure for the hive timing, its really just not the answer at the moment. You give up all you aggression when you get your tanks playing passivily against a race that has larva inject and insane production , will never make sense. I've seen amazing players play greeder then this but it doesn't work. If you sit back until 1530 . They should have hive, and they should be morphing their brood lords, or making Ultras. No amount of micro matters when you have marine tank vs hive tech. Look what happened agains errorBm- the guy pushed UP A RAMP , with 2/2 on his ultra (No plateing), into your seiged position. Your a good player, the build has its flaws and I wouldn't recommend it. I definitely agree with most of this post - I don't think zero aggression until lategame should ever work vs a competent zerg. But I like the idea of this build - as Idra mentioned, one of the answers to the 6-queen build is to out-greed your opponent, and the problem with this approach is that it dies to the roach-baneling bust, which has only started to work since Terrans stopped making tanks. I definitely think bio is the better way to play standard (ling-infestor) TvZ - it's more robust, and you can trade well, and snipe well, but as Sheth mentioned a LONG time ago on his stream, the bust only works if Terran doesn't make a single tank. So without GOING tanks, I feel like the answer lies somewhere in making a couple of tanks, and the trick is how to do this without putting your upgrades / tech behind too far. I haven't quite worked that part out yet. | ||
storkman
United States157 Posts
Storkman: The Three games you played where the opponent's didn't bust, The zergs played extreamly bad, I mean First off: your supply was higher then them the entire game, thats no because of the 3rd CC, even when you do this build the zerg should still be ahead. In the game vs ErrorBM Your 2/2 push hit at like 1530 and just stoped at the center of the map , until unupgraded ultras took it out. In the game vs pBGz its not even relevent , this guy is platnium , playing in masters because he's zerg. (I'm really not being a douche, if people would watch the game they would see this) In the game vs Zinger- The guy was so low on supply the entire game, and then attacks into your seiged up position, and your 2/2 push was non existant. The thing is , yes your build holds off the early busts, and then wins because early bust builds are pretty all in . But I really don't think seige tanks are the answer to TvZ . If a zerg doesnt busts and macros well , your 2/2 push will be crushed, your can't play this passively. Sure it will work sometimes when the zerg doesnt play that great, but when ever i use this extreamly passive style the 2/2 push just gets halted by creep , and eventually his hive tech comes out and cleans it up. With no infastructure for the hive timing, its really just not the answer at the moment. You give up all you aggression when you get your tanks playing passivily against a race that has larva inject and insane production , will never make sense. I've seen amazing players play greeder then this but it doesn't work. If you sit back until 1530 . They should have hive, and they should be morphing their brood lords, or making Ultras. No amount of micro matters when you have marine tank vs hive tech. Look what happened agains errorBm- the guy pushed UP A RAMP , with 2/2 on his ultra (No plateing), into your seiged position. Your a good player, the build has its flaws and I wouldn't recommend it. Since the hellion nerf for me personally I really feel like the openings for terrans have been killed, going hellion is a huge waste of minerals, going hellion/banshee after cc just seems like suicide because if they do bust the zergs just laugh and flood you with units. People will say you can scout a bust coming but you really can't they can just go double gas after you scout leaves and bust you in the exact same way. I think until some kind of buff/nerf hits terran or zerg the terran openings will stay extremely limited and zergs will still have the option to do w/e they want I have been practicing this build multiple times against the AI to get a feeling about it,and then started to use it on ladder. I am a top 8 platinum player and for me this just not seem to be working. Most of the time the zerg will bust through me with roach, ling, bling, and at that time you have 10 marines and a tank, which doesn't seem to hold it. I have been playing this build 10 times on ladder, and have not made it to midgame due to busts. I think you power too much stuff, and sacrifing too much for this one tank. I would not recommend it at least at my level of play. The sad thing about this is it explains the whole tvz matchup ![]() I definitely agree with most of this post - I don't think zero aggression until lategame should ever work as a competent zerg. But I like the idea of this build - as Idra mentioned, one of the answers to the 6-queen build is to out-greed your opponent, and the problem with this approach is that it dies to the roach-baneling bust, which has only started to work since Terrans stopped making tanks. I definitely think bio is the better way to play standard (ling-infestor) TvZ - it's more robust, and you can trade well, and snipe well, but as Sheth mentioned a LONG time ago on his stream, the bust only works if Terran doesn't make a single tank. So without GOING tanks, I feel like the answer lies somewhere in making a couple of tanks, and the trick is how to do this without putting your upgrades / tech behind too far. I haven't quite worked that part out yet. The point is how do you put on aggression on a competent zerg, you really don't have to overcommit to the tank portion of this build, you can make the two then transition into medivacs,ups,and more racks. These two tanks I feel can play a huge role in defensive infrastructure for us terran players because whenever I play bio and I lose a major engagement next thing i know there is a billion lings/banes running at me so these 2 hefty tanks with good walls can actually help you all throughout the game just a thought though still haven't been able to even look at starcraft | ||
KirA_TheGreaT
France204 Posts
Bio is also here, it requires more skill overall but it definitely works. | ||
storkman
United States157 Posts
In the current meta i would not see me go straight into tank, you need to put pressure on the zerg and hellion/banshee is the best answer if transitioning to standard marine/tank. ( and with good simcity you can actually hold zerg busts ) Bio is also here, it requires more skill overall but it definitely works. If he goes gas first hellion/banshee just auto dies | ||
KirA_TheGreaT
France204 Posts
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