|
On June 13 2012 00:13 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:46 Rigorous wrote:On June 12 2012 23:41 area51Hellokitty wrote:
again, this is a VERY micro intensive build, if you're having players like Desrow who's micro isn't his forte, it's pretty pointless. I'm pretty sure desrow didn't invent the build. I'm pretty sure he got it from Koreans as I've seen it on a few other streams. I don't see this as a dominant build. If it had an 80% win rate, you would see it more often. I agree it's micro-oriented, but a minimal amount or roaches (3-5) can stop 4-gate pressure...nothing you can do to micro zlots against roaches on creep. Especially if there is one spine. If they make Roaches instead of Drones to defend your 4gate pressure, their economy will be weakened when it comes time to defend the 7gate Blink +2 push. This makes the 7gate attack stronger. Try doing a 7gate Blink +2 push without pressuring and then try it with pressure, you'll see a massive difference.
At my level, top 8 master ~1,200 pts, any zerg opponent can micro 3-5 roaches and stop 4-gate pressure. My point is that most zergs already have this amount of roaches in their build order without jeopardizing their economy. Any good zerg knows not to overmake units with the initial 4-gate pressure especially if they scout double gas at natural, etc...cuz they know you are teching behind an initial wave of units. My point is that good zergs stop this 4-gate pressure with basically no economic loss, and then you are way behind. How many pros do you see still opening with 4-gate pressure? It's all about taking a fast 3rd now...
|
|
|
|
|
On June 13 2012 00:42 Sated wrote:Are you suggesting that the all-in would be stronger without 4gate pressure? Because that's all that matters with regards to this strategy. And if that is what you're suggesting, why? EDIT: Also, you're replying to a thread created by someone who just did extremely well in WCS. Your "at my level" bullshit isn't needed, nor does it make you look good 
Your vulgary isn't needed. Apparently, your reading comprehension may not be the strongest. I am not suggesting that this strategy would be stronger without 4 gate pressure. I'm suggesting that this strategy does not yield an 80% win rate, because it relies on 4 gate pressure that is easily stoppable.
|
|
|
Great guide, but I think the mark of a truly amazing guide is if you cop to some of the counters to the build. There isn't a timing attack that doesn't have a weakness, i think that should be somewhat mandatory in the strategy section and im not just talking about your post alone. Can't wait to try this out!
|
On June 13 2012 00:12 Rigorous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:07 area51Hellokitty wrote:
thats why you back off or target fire drones + queens, any drone + queen = win But if you back off, then you are way behind because you opened 4-gate. I don't see many pros opening with 4-gate pressure anymore, because if you don't do any damage, you are way behind.
That's because they're either
1) Not 2 base all inning
2) Not 2 base all inning with tech
3) Not 2 base all inning with low sentry count
However if you are 2 base all inning with tech and low sentry count there's not really any reason not to put on some pressure early, even if you expect it to get defended. Just something to grab the opponent's focus and maybe do some damage.
|
very similar build to what Hero did in GSL a couple seasons back, it goes something like (i wrote it down without chronos)
17 Nexus
17 Forge
18 Pylon
19 Cannon
19 Gate
21 Double gas
27 Core
27 Zealot
27 +1 Attack
WG when core done
Stalker @Zealot 100%
2 More gates
Zealot
48 Double gas
48 Twilight
Start warping zealots from 3 gates
4 More gates
+2 Attack and Blink
Blink done 10:30
Cut probes at 46
On June 13 2012 00:59 drgonzhere wrote:
Great guide, but I think the mark of a truly amazing guide is if you cop to some of the counters to the build. There isn't a timing attack that doesn't have a weakness, i think that should be somewhat mandatory in the strategy section and im not just talking about your post alone. Can't wait to try this out!
This build cuts robo so borrow roaches, lings + spines and decent micro from Z should be able to hold this unless they dont scout or play too greedy
|
really nice build reminds me of the 2 gate style pressure's into 4gate's.
|
This build is used frequently on the Korean ladder . . . just because you don't see it a lot in tournaments doesn't mean people aren't using it.
|
On June 13 2012 01:54 RealRook wrote:very similar build to what Hero did in GSL a couple seasons back, it goes something like (i wrote it down without chronos) 17 Nexus 17 Forge 18 Pylon 19 Cannon 19 Gate 21 Double gas 27 Core 27 Zealot 27 +1 Attack WG when core done Stalker @Zealot 100% 2 More gates Zealot 48 Double gas 48 Twilight Start warping zealots from 3 gates 4 More gates +2 Attack and Blink Blink done 10:30 Cut probes at 46 Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:59 drgonzhere wrote:
Great guide, but I think the mark of a truly amazing guide is if you cop to some of the counters to the build. There isn't a timing attack that doesn't have a weakness, i think that should be somewhat mandatory in the strategy section and im not just talking about your post alone. Can't wait to try this out! This build cuts robo so borrow roaches, lings + spines and decent micro from Z should be able to hold this unless they dont scout or play too greedy
right, the build doesnt actually hit until you have a decent amount of stalkers, with good micro (80-92 total supply), you should be able to use forcefield to take out a decent chunk of zerg's army without losing a single stalker. but yes, if they go burrowed roaches, you just have to back off, get robo, mass up more on stalkers and do like a 120-140 supply push ^.^ it hits right before the 11 minute mark 
|
Tibbles? Are you kidding me? When did you start posting on TL? You the same tibbles that annoyed everyone at Dawn of war sanctuary?
User was warned for this post
|
looks like a great build
its next on my list of builds to master
|
On June 13 2012 00:18 Rigorous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:13 Sated wrote:On June 12 2012 23:46 Rigorous wrote:On June 12 2012 23:41 area51Hellokitty wrote:
again, this is a VERY micro intensive build, if you're having players like Desrow who's micro isn't his forte, it's pretty pointless. I'm pretty sure desrow didn't invent the build. I'm pretty sure he got it from Koreans as I've seen it on a few other streams. I don't see this as a dominant build. If it had an 80% win rate, you would see it more often. I agree it's micro-oriented, but a minimal amount or roaches (3-5) can stop 4-gate pressure...nothing you can do to micro zlots against roaches on creep. Especially if there is one spine. If they make Roaches instead of Drones to defend your 4gate pressure, their economy will be weakened when it comes time to defend the 7gate Blink +2 push. This makes the 7gate attack stronger. Try doing a 7gate Blink +2 push without pressuring and then try it with pressure, you'll see a massive difference. At my level, top 8 master ~1,200 pts, any zerg opponent can micro 3-5 roaches and stop 4-gate pressure. My point is that most zergs already have this amount of roaches in their build order without jeopardizing their economy. Any good zerg knows not to overmake units with the initial 4-gate pressure especially if they scout double gas at natural, etc...cuz they know you are teching behind an initial wave of units. My point is that good zergs stop this 4-gate pressure with basically no economic loss, and then you are way behind. How many pros do you see still opening with 4-gate pressure? It's all about taking a fast 3rd now...
It's very doubtful that there will be a spine crawler at the Zerg's third, unless its one of those ridiculous maps with a really easy third. It's true a couple roaches do shut down 4gate pressure pretty easily, but the roaches will still have to be micro'd, and at most levels, that's potentially missed larva injects or morphs. I think keeping the initial zealot may be a little bit of a stretch given queen buff, but 4 zealot/1 stalker can keep 3 roaches busy for awhile, though 5 should clean up a lot easier. The stalker will be getting shots off, and if Zerg tries to focus it with roaches, Toss can kite back and zealots and get some swipes on the roaches. At my level, top 30 ~1200 points master, this is pretty easy to do as well.
4gate is poor if you don't have an immediate, definite follow up plan. However, the amount of eco that the 7gate blink all-in needs can be gotten comfortably after the pressure. So, essentially there is no reason not to do it. This is an all-in. It's very different from getting a fast third in a standard game.
@OP
I like the idea of using the proxy pylon for supply and using the blocked time to drop a pair of assimilators.That's very clever.
Hmm, given the queen buff, I'm not quite sure how fast a well-executed Stephano-style roach max hits now. I know it used to be around 12 minutes-- is it slightly earlier now? 4gate pressure might buy you like 30 seconds, but I'm worried that Zerg will still have quite a few roaches by the time your attack hits. I guess you used this at WCS and it worked though.
Random questions:
What maps?
What base do I attack?
|
On June 13 2012 03:08 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 00:18 Rigorous wrote:On June 13 2012 00:13 Sated wrote:On June 12 2012 23:46 Rigorous wrote:On June 12 2012 23:41 area51Hellokitty wrote:
again, this is a VERY micro intensive build, if you're having players like Desrow who's micro isn't his forte, it's pretty pointless. I'm pretty sure desrow didn't invent the build. I'm pretty sure he got it from Koreans as I've seen it on a few other streams. I don't see this as a dominant build. If it had an 80% win rate, you would see it more often. I agree it's micro-oriented, but a minimal amount or roaches (3-5) can stop 4-gate pressure...nothing you can do to micro zlots against roaches on creep. Especially if there is one spine. If they make Roaches instead of Drones to defend your 4gate pressure, their economy will be weakened when it comes time to defend the 7gate Blink +2 push. This makes the 7gate attack stronger. Try doing a 7gate Blink +2 push without pressuring and then try it with pressure, you'll see a massive difference. At my level, top 8 master ~1,200 pts, any zerg opponent can micro 3-5 roaches and stop 4-gate pressure. My point is that most zergs already have this amount of roaches in their build order without jeopardizing their economy. Any good zerg knows not to overmake units with the initial 4-gate pressure especially if they scout double gas at natural, etc...cuz they know you are teching behind an initial wave of units. My point is that good zergs stop this 4-gate pressure with basically no economic loss, and then you are way behind. How many pros do you see still opening with 4-gate pressure? It's all about taking a fast 3rd now... It's very doubtful that there will be a spine crawler at the Zerg's third, unless its one of those ridiculous maps with a really easy third. It's true a couple roaches do shut down 4gate pressure pretty easily, but the roaches will still have to be micro'd, and at most levels, that's potentially missed larva injects or morphs. I think keeping the initial zealot may be a little bit of a stretch given queen buff, but 4 zealot/1 stalker can keep 3 roaches busy for awhile, though 5 should clean up a lot easier. The stalker will be getting shots off, and if Zerg tries to focus it with roaches, Toss can kite back and zealots and get some swipes on the roaches. At my level, top 30 ~1200 points master, this is pretty easy to do as well. 4gate is poor if you don't have an immediate, definite follow up plan. However, the amount of eco that the 7gate blink all-in needs can be gotten comfortably after the pressure. So, essentially there is no reason not to do it. This is an all-in. It's very different from getting a fast third in a standard game. @OP I like the idea of using the proxy pylon for supply and using the blocked time to drop a pair of assimilators.That's very clever. Hmm, given the queen buff, I'm not quite sure how fast a well-executed Stephano-style roach max hits now. I know it used to be around 12 minutes-- is it slightly earlier now? 4gate pressure might buy you like 30 seconds, but I'm worried that Zerg will still have quite a few roaches by the time your attack hits. I guess you used this at WCS and it worked though. Random questions: What maps? What base do I attack?
4 gate pressure buys you a few seconds, the original pylon block buys you up to like a minute or 2 depends on how well you block 3rds.
most of the maps you do tend to go for the 3rd, like antiga, even though you can go straight natural, you can get surrounded really easily, it's far enough on most maps that 3rd base is the way to go, however, if they pull their drones and everything, go straight for natural it works well on any map imo, not too well for emtombed unless you are fighting at very big choke points
|
On June 12 2012 23:06 EtherealDeath wrote:
L, did you know, kitties blink.
Excellent reference is excellent.
hellokitty, with only 4 sentries, is it generally better to pop a guardian shield, or use extra forcefields? Judgement call based upon the map/engagement?
|
On June 13 2012 03:47 Chemist391 wrote:Excellent reference is excellent. hellokitty, with only 4 sentries, is it generally better to pop a guardian shield, or use extra forcefields? Judgement call based upon the map/engagement?
Roach has high damage, slow shooting so you'd be negating a pretty small part of the damage. FF you can zone out a good number of roaches and keep them from shooting you. Still, I reflexively pop a GS whenever I engage... might be a bad habit.
|
On June 13 2012 03:47 Chemist391 wrote:Excellent reference is excellent. hellokitty, with only 4 sentries, is it generally better to pop a guardian shield, or use extra forcefields? Judgement call based upon the map/engagement?
i usually go with 5, 4 umm, depends on the map, if a lot of chokes go for guardian. I generally get 1 guardian regardless, your FF runs out really quickly, so maybe 2 sets of FF before you have to fight with just blink micro
|
Can you hit earlier off a nexus first or is timing about the same?
|
On June 13 2012 04:56 CryMore wrote:
Can you hit earlier off a nexus first or is timing about the same?
all depends on your core timing, you probably won't be able to get as much gas and chrono timings will be different
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
