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On July 18 2012 17:32 Nurfie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 08:18 Antylamon wrote:On July 18 2012 07:19 Nurfie wrote:
Switched to ZRMM 0.3.3 from ZRM 0.3.2.
Mouse vs no mouse:
I use a clawish grip, but it feels like unless you completely have to rearrange your hand when using the mouse buttons it should not be an issue since you're basically only using it for macro which requires zero mouse precision.
So far it's working out great for me with an MX518 and it feels like control group hotkeys are a step up from the ZRM version.
0.3.3 vs 0.3.2:
I like the unit from larva changes, not afraid to spam "O" anymore in the beginning and the rest somehow just feels better as well.
My modifications:
Build ultralisk to "8" - G is far away.
Explode baneling to "N" - G is far away.
baneling enable/disable autotoarget to something far away (never used)
Spawn creep tumor added "I" as secondary key - same as for creep tumor on queens.
Upgrade to Lair and Hive to "K" - B is far away.
Still need to learn to find "N" and "M" better with my pinky, and I mess up infestor control quite alot still (need some more deliberate practice controlling multiple army groups in conjunction with infestors).
I'm thinking "P"->"O" might be eaiser for my brain to handle when wanting to fungal, even "P"->"O"->"O" for the unburrow fungal makes more sense to me for the same reason holding "O" to make drones does... might try that out tomorrow. Ultralisk is a preference. G feels more comfortable for me. Explode baneling is far away because it's terrible when you accidentally hit that key. Since M is Stop, you could easily hit explode accidentally if you want to use Stop for some reason. Building auto-target change makes sense. Creep Tumor change makes sense. I think it's also better because the ring finger is stronger than the pinky. Lair and Hive are on B because B is not a key used by larvae. When Upgrade to Lair/Hive is on K, then if you have no larva and try to make an ovie you make a Lair/Hive. Can anyone explain to me how they use the free cameras? Specifically H. <3 I've never really learned to use camera hotkeys and I'm unsure how much that key would help me compared to using it as an easy to reach ability key.
My camera keys are H 7 and ,
I use , all the time as my rally cam and H is the only other free cam I use (7 is a little too far away for me, plus i'm still experimenting with free cams). But I strongly suggest a rally cam. It is super good for all races (except maybe protoss). As far as other free cam uses, the next big one is your ramp. Zergs can experiment with creep cams (having a cam to jump to the edge of your creep and spread tumors) but i like just clicking on the minimap and spreading manually. Lastly you could try a xel'naga watchtower cam or maybe your single ling outside of his base to see his unit comp when he starts moving out.
^I think H is best for one or both of those purposes where your unit is going to die quick, you need to instantly jump the screen before you lose vision of his army.
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@wc4482 : you woke up my curiosity, i think i'll give it an harder try to look at it, as soon as i get some time to play (fu**ing work ...)
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I agree that layered camera injects are superior to any other inject method, having tried them all.
On July 18 2012 17:32 Nurfie wrote:
Can anyone explain to me how they use the free cameras? Specifically H. <3
I've never really learned to use camera hotkeys and I'm unsure how much that key would help me compared to using it as an easy to reach ability key.
You play zerg right? One camera at your rally point and one at the front of your creep spread would be ideal I think.
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On July 18 2012 22:51 wc4482 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Regarding Layered Inject Method:I have tried the methods you all are suggesting (backspace inject, click on minimap), but I haven't found anything faster and more accurate than layered camera inject with the Core. You can disagree, but I honestly believe you are doing yourself a severe disservice if you do not spend a solid hour practicing it (and nothing else!) to get good at it, before you dismiss it. You have been informed, but the choice is always yours.
On July 18 2012 13:14 Akylol wrote:
What about long Zerg macro games? Just started, so injecting feels damn wierd. If i got long games i can get up 7-8 Bases with only 5 Camera positions or am i wrong? On July 18 2012 14:04 Antylamon wrote:
I still disagree that layered injects are better, though. Especially when you have a macro hatch or when, as Akylol said, you have "7-8 bases." There are only 5 base cameras under this layout. It is possible to add base cameras up to 8, but then you would have no free cameras. Are you trying to inject on more than 5 bases? I didn't think anyone tried more than 3 - 4 injecting queens max. As far as macro hatches, I suggest using J I O P for your saturated bases and ; for your macro hatch. You want your base cams where your injecting queens are. If you for instance like two macro hatches with injecting queens then designate P and ; or J and ; It will make more sense when you actually try it out in the game. If you are having trouble with it i'm sure Jak would love to help you on his stream chat, so he can demonstrate/answer questions you may have. On July 18 2012 19:30 WFGolgoth wrote:My 2 cents concerning Queen injects : On my side, i'm injecting via the minimap : select group of injecting queens => press your inject key ("O" for me as i'm using ZRM) and keep it pressed => left click your hatcheries on the minimap. You know you are on a "good" hatchery (with no inject running) if the cursor is green, otherwise if the hatchery is running an inject, or if it's the wrong building (not an hatchery), the cursor will be gray. I've tried to inject via camera hotkeys, but im still faster via the minimap, but i think it depends on people and the way they feel it easier  On July 18 2012 13:14 Akylol wrote:
I used Backspace method and QWERT grid before (I am right handed). I had the problem of queens runnin all over the place but i learned to live with that. I appreciate your feedback and i have tried injecting via minimap. I do not have the minimap accuracy that you probably do, but I really believe if you gave layered inject an hour of dedicated practice time you would love it over your old method. You have to build up the muscle memory before you can see the true potential. After a few weeks of practice, I can be in battle, accurately inject 3 fully saturated bases and a macro hatch in literally 1 - 2 seconds and jump back to the battle. All my queens have < 25 energy and I don't have to worry about missing clicks on the minimap and my queens never run around all over the map because i clicked my 4th saturated base with no queen there, etc.
Wow, that's stubborn and ignorant. Just because we don't use layered injects doesn't mean we haven't tried them >.>
Also, your description at the bottom paragraph (first sentence) sounds almost exactly like what someone said about backspace injects on the original thread for it 
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On July 19 2012 01:22 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 22:51 wc4482 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Regarding Layered Inject Method:I have tried the methods you all are suggesting (backspace inject, click on minimap), but I haven't found anything faster and more accurate than layered camera inject with the Core. You can disagree, but I honestly believe you are doing yourself a severe disservice if you do not spend a solid hour practicing it (and nothing else!) to get good at it, before you dismiss it. You have been informed, but the choice is always yours.
On July 18 2012 13:14 Akylol wrote:
What about long Zerg macro games? Just started, so injecting feels damn wierd. If i got long games i can get up 7-8 Bases with only 5 Camera positions or am i wrong? On July 18 2012 14:04 Antylamon wrote:
I still disagree that layered injects are better, though. Especially when you have a macro hatch or when, as Akylol said, you have "7-8 bases." There are only 5 base cameras under this layout. It is possible to add base cameras up to 8, but then you would have no free cameras. Are you trying to inject on more than 5 bases? I didn't think anyone tried more than 3 - 4 injecting queens max. As far as macro hatches, I suggest using J I O P for your saturated bases and ; for your macro hatch. You want your base cams where your injecting queens are. If you for instance like two macro hatches with injecting queens then designate P and ; or J and ; It will make more sense when you actually try it out in the game. If you are having trouble with it i'm sure Jak would love to help you on his stream chat, so he can demonstrate/answer questions you may have. On July 18 2012 19:30 WFGolgoth wrote:My 2 cents concerning Queen injects : On my side, i'm injecting via the minimap : select group of injecting queens => press your inject key ("O" for me as i'm using ZRM) and keep it pressed => left click your hatcheries on the minimap. You know you are on a "good" hatchery (with no inject running) if the cursor is green, otherwise if the hatchery is running an inject, or if it's the wrong building (not an hatchery), the cursor will be gray. I've tried to inject via camera hotkeys, but im still faster via the minimap, but i think it depends on people and the way they feel it easier On July 18 2012 13:14 Akylol wrote:
I used Backspace method and QWERT grid before (I am right handed). I had the problem of queens runnin all over the place but i learned to live with that. I appreciate your feedback and i have tried injecting via minimap. I do not have the minimap accuracy that you probably do, but I really believe if you gave layered inject an hour of dedicated practice time you would love it over your old method. You have to build up the muscle memory before you can see the true potential. After a few weeks of practice, I can be in battle, accurately inject 3 fully saturated bases and a macro hatch in literally 1 - 2 seconds and jump back to the battle. All my queens have < 25 energy and I don't have to worry about missing clicks on the minimap and my queens never run around all over the map because i clicked my 4th saturated base with no queen there, etc. Wow, that's stubborn and ignorant. Just because we don't use layered injects doesn't mean we haven't tried them >.> Also, your description at the bottom paragraph (first sentence) sounds almost exactly like what someone said about backspace injects on the original thread for it
I don't see the ignorance in my post, and if you don't want to switch that is fine - i won't lose any sleep.
I was just sharing my experience of loving backspace inject and hating cams, until i decided i would dive into the cam method before I gave it my final judgement. Boy was I glad I did. I still think you would be too, if you gave it more effort.
In my other post i said one hour of dedicated practice. Looking back I don't think this is enough. I think an hour of dedicated practice per night (meaning you load up a single player vs AI game vs very easy comp and spend 99.9% of your attention on injecting slowly and accurately). Then do whatever you want for the rest of the night, go to sleep and the next night do the same practice for another hour. When you feel more comfortable increase the speed. Go to sleep and try it again the third night.
The reason for this is that your body doesn't fully integrate the muscle memory until you have literally "slept on it". If you have already tried something similar to the above and STILL don't like the method, then dear god man change back to your old method. I won't be offended if you still don't use the method - its a preference thing first and foremost. I just wanted to be sure that people gave it a fighting chance first.
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*Shrugs*
It just seemed like you were justifying extremities like "severe disservice" and "you would love it over your own method."
It felt like you were just forcing it on everyone rather than trying to give useful advice.
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Everyone's got their own style.
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I've been a long time Grid user and decided to give this a go with the hopes of being able to use more control groups as I could only reliably use 4. I'm 35 or so games into using ZRM and I've been finding that my left hand still feels pretty clumsy on the wrong side of the keyboard and if I lift my hand to type something to the other player I have a hard time finding JIOP again.
I found a solution that has helped me out quite a bit in buying four textured key caps and replacing my JIOP keys with them. I just bought some from WASD keyboards and they are pretty slick. I'm slowing starting to be able to take advantage of the layout more and more each game. Thanks for this!
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On July 19 2012 06:29 ImDasMustache wrote:
I've been a long time Grid user and decided to give this a go with the hopes of being able to use more control groups as I could only reliably use 4. I'm 35 or so games into using ZRM and I've been finding that my left hand still feels pretty clumsy on the wrong side of the keyboard and if I lift my hand to type something to the other player I have a hard time finding JIOP again.
I found a solution that has helped me out quite a bit in buying four textured key caps and replacing my JIOP keys with them. I just bought some from WASD keyboards and they are pretty slick. I'm slowing starting to be able to take advantage of the layout more and more each game. Thanks for this!
I love that idea. I'll probably be doing this myself :D
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I use my right hand for my mouse but using the keys on the right side of my keyboard is extremely uncomfortable for me. I much prefer using the keys on the left side, so I'm doing that, is that bad?
Who the hell even would use the right side of the keyboard when right handed? So awkward.
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On July 19 2012 12:09 Cosmology wrote:
I use my right hand for my mouse but using the keys on the right side of my keyboard is extremely uncomfortable for me. I much prefer using the keys on the left side, so I'm doing that, is that bad?
Who the hell even would use the right side of the keyboard when right handed? So awkward.
Using the left side of the keyboard with your right hand completely deconstructs the point of TheCore. I strongly suggest giving it a try, make sure you watch the first video and position accordingly. Good Luck.
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On July 19 2012 12:40 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 12:09 Cosmology wrote:
I use my right hand for my mouse but using the keys on the right side of my keyboard is extremely uncomfortable for me. I much prefer using the keys on the left side, so I'm doing that, is that bad?
Who the hell even would use the right side of the keyboard when right handed? So awkward. Using the left side of the keyboard with your right hand completely deconstructs the point of TheCore. I strongly suggest giving it a try, make sure you watch the first video and position accordingly. Good Luck.
He's probly not coming back
Oh well, more people to crush on ladder.
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Thank you very much for accommodating my dvorak layout. I'm a sucker for always finding more efficient ways to do things. Right off the bat I've started comparing this to my old layout: grid. Some things that I find immediately faster are building barracks, building SCV, marines, and marauders.The terran mule mechanic feels especially brilliant, since after selecting my orbitals, my hand is already in position to shift-drop mules, i just press downward and click. In grid I reach down with my pinky, and then reach back up with it to make an SCV, or down with my pinky and up with my index to make a depot. With this core it's a single, swift motion and my fingers don't have to travel as much. Some things I find awkward are reapers and marauders because I have to reach out my pinky. Also, if I have 2 or more idle workers(which may happen after running away from mineral line harassment, reaching for control and f9 feels kind of a stretch. Anyway, it's way too early to make hard judgments on this, just letting you know that as a guy that values efficiency my first impression is that this is very efficient.
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Speaking of textured key caps, the ghetto version (I'm considering it..) is to use a knife to carve the key up a small bit. Instant texture...
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I feel like I'm the only person who has no problems whatsoever getting my hand back on the base keys ._.
I had a little trouble for the first day and that's about it.
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On July 20 2012 03:36 Antylamon wrote:
I feel like I'm the only person who has no problems whatsoever getting my hand back on the base keys ._.
I had a little trouble for the first day and that's about it.
I'm curious about how people hold their keyboard hand (EDIT: In relation to the CORE). I have always thought the best way to 'go back to home' was to maintain my thumb on the shift/ctrl keys, so that when I reach my fingers to press non homekeys I have a pivot point to move back to resting position without looking down. What I find actually happening is I rest my wrist on the gel cushion below my keyboard and pivot from there. I probably need more practice.
Also for the textured keycaps, make sure you buy the correct keytypes. Each row of the keyboard has keys with different dimensions (height, angle, shape). The only textured keycaps I could find on wasdkeyboards were Row 2 keys (ASDF row). I took a chance and bought four Row 2 keys with "dots" and tried to put them on J I O and P. Problem is I O and P are Row 3 keys and when I installed them I realized why there is a distinction among the rows. Make a long story short, I returned the 3 Row 2 keys and bought Row 3 keys (without texture). Now I have blue homekeys and black regular keys so if my hand gets lost I can quickly look down and correct.
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On July 20 2012 22:00 wc4482 wrote:
I'm curious about how people hold their keyboard hand.
There is actually a reason that J and F keys have small bump on them. They are the home keys.
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On July 20 2012 22:00 wc4482 wrote:
I'm curious about how people hold their keyboard hand (EDIT: In relation to the CORE). I have always thought the best way to 'go back to home' was to maintain my thumb on the shift/ctrl keys, so that when I reach my fingers to press non homekeys I have a pivot point to move back to resting position without looking down. What I find actually happening is I rest my wrist on the gel cushion below my keyboard and pivot from there. I probably need more practice.
After using The Core for a while, I don't even have to think about how I move my hand back to the home keys, honestly. With enough practice, it's just reflexive.
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On July 21 2012 04:50 SPARTAN-001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 22:00 wc4482 wrote:
I'm curious about how people hold their keyboard hand (EDIT: In relation to the CORE). I have always thought the best way to 'go back to home' was to maintain my thumb on the shift/ctrl keys, so that when I reach my fingers to press non homekeys I have a pivot point to move back to resting position without looking down. What I find actually happening is I rest my wrist on the gel cushion below my keyboard and pivot from there. I probably need more practice. After using The Core for a while, I don't even have to think about how I move my hand back to the home keys, honestly. With enough practice, it's just reflexive.
Yeah, that's what I meant too. It gets really easy after a while.
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Did anyone switch from using different keybinds for buildings(rax, fact, port) to putting them all on one? I'm doing multitask trainer with TheCore and I'm finding this to be really hard to keep production up. I'm so used to tapping (5, marine, 6, tank, 7, medivac) rhythmically to make units nonstop but the OP suggests lumping all your production together and hitting "/" to tab. I find it hard to find a production rhythm with tabbing subgroups.
I'm using the mouse button recommended keybind(i.e CC on mouse button 4, production on 5), maybe I should use a hand keybind instead?
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EPT
