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Ah now I feel stupid, I honestly never realized right click rallies.
Well, that is far better than any hotkey, I guess my poor "/" key will be lonely now.
thanks for the tip haha!
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Dumb question perhaps but first of all, is the data document 100% up to date? And secondly I don't quite know how I can see the TRM layout in the data document, the terran section under RRM is that the "random" one or is it the TRM version?
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On July 17 2012 23:29 VanGarde wrote:
Dumb question perhaps but first of all, is the data document 100% up to date? And secondly I don't quite know how I can see the TRM layout in the data document, the terran section under RRM is that the "random" one or is it the TRM version?
That's the random version.
Note that the spreadsheets have multiple tabs. The default one is Random, the tab selector is on the bottom
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I'd like to share my customization on the most recent ZRM update.
I changed the first five set camera keys to ctrl+shift+J/I/O/P/K, and the camera jump keys to ctrl+J/I/O/P/K. I also changed set control group from ctrl+P to alt+P because the only time you would have to use set control group for hatches would be when you make a mistake or when you cancel a hatch. I did this because I always felt awkward pressing alt. I gave it a try, but I just couldn't get used to using alt so often.
I also flipped Y and U for the purposes of putting the base cam closer to the base keys. Mainly that hinders the creation of Baneling Nests and Corruptors, but it's not a big problem imo.
The only problem I can think of is if I'm holding shift to use an ability multiple times while trying to use a camera, i.e. inject, but that's resolved with the closer base cam key.
Anything wrong with my modification?
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On July 13 2012 14:57 ellaguru wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 23:37 VanGarde wrote:
I have been away for a while and not kept up to date. I wonder, why was terran oc and macro control groups flipped? And why is marine/tank now on J instead of I? i also really questioned those at first. it set back my progress big time, just to relearn those major keys. but i came to see it as an improvement. it just feels really smooth and natural to hit P I O J to make one scv and one marine. much moreso than O I P I. i think it was one of those decisions that improves the 'flow' of a common sequence of keystrokes. also P is the stronger finger and i think having it for command centers makes sense.
True that P is the stronger finger, but J is also the weakest of those fingers, so now 90% of the macro is done with the pinkie. That seems less ergonomic to me.
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Which is correct, the data document or the latest hotkey download for TRM?
In the data document the SCV advanced construct hotkeys are:
H = Fusion Core M = Ghost Academy
But in the hotkey file it is:
, = Fusion Core H = Ghost Academy and M not being used at all.
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On July 18 2012 00:46 Antylamon wrote:
I also flipped Y and U for the purposes of putting the base cam closer to the base keys. Mainly that hinders the creation of Baneling Nests and Corruptors, but it's not a big problem imo.
I love this idea, going to do this myself.
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Looking at more command combination optimization today on the stream. Feel free to stop by if you have any questions:
http://www.twitch.tv/thejakatak
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Right, time for some insight!
About hotkeys for abilities and use frequency. What is difficult about setting hotkeys for some multi-ability units when you set it based on frequency is that the meta game constantly changes the frequency. For me, seeker missile on , is absolutely terrible. It is a terribly inconvenient key. A few months ago it would had been fine because I used it so rarely but since the raven has now become standard in TvZ metagame I find myself using it more than both PDD and Turret.
In either case, I propose switching Seeker missile in TRM from , to '. That would put seeker missile on the same key as cloak for the banshee. Much easier to use.
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whats the reason behind the change of the morph Drone/Overlord/Zergling/Roach keys?
this is the exact thing I suggested weeks ago in the streamchat, and I was told my idea was bad,
the same happened with the build queen and overlord keys, causing accidental queens and overlords,
they too got changed after I was told my idea was not good,
so whats the reason behind these changes after dismissing my idea when I told the exact same thing?
when I suggested it you told me,
"you shouldn't be spamming build drone anyway, since you're supposed to look and know when you have free larva"
although almost every zerg player does it
I got used to using P O J for drones, and actually like it more,
so whats the improvement with pressing p o o you said repetitive keystrokes are slower than poj
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On July 18 2012 06:12 maLaK1 wrote:
I got used to using P O J for drones, and actually like it more,
so whats the improvement with pressing p o o you said repetitive keystrokes are slower than poj
You can hold down O so you can make drones immediately when larva pops up.
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Switched to ZRMM 0.3.3 from ZRM 0.3.2.
Mouse vs no mouse:
I use a clawish grip, but it feels like unless you completely have to rearrange your hand when using the mouse buttons it should not be an issue since you're basically only using it for macro which requires zero mouse precision.
So far it's working out great for me with an MX518 and it feels like control group hotkeys are a step up from the ZRM version.
0.3.3 vs 0.3.2:
I like the unit from larva changes, not afraid to spam "O" anymore in the beginning and the rest somehow just feels better as well.
My modifications:
Build ultralisk to "8" - G is far away.
Explode baneling to "N" - G is far away.
baneling enable/disable autotoarget to something far away (never used)
Spawn creep tumor added "I" as secondary key - same as for creep tumor on queens.
Upgrade to Lair and Hive to "K" - B is far away.
Still need to learn to find "N" and "M" better with my pinky, and I mess up infestor control quite alot still (need some more deliberate practice controlling multiple army groups in conjunction with infestors).
I'm thinking "P"->"O" might be eaiser for my brain to handle when wanting to fungal, even "P"->"O"->"O" for the unburrow fungal makes more sense to me for the same reason holding "O" to make drones does... might try that out tomorrow.
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On July 18 2012 07:19 Nurfie wrote:
Switched to ZRMM 0.3.3 from ZRM 0.3.2.
Mouse vs no mouse:
I use a clawish grip, but it feels like unless you completely have to rearrange your hand when using the mouse buttons it should not be an issue since you're basically only using it for macro which requires zero mouse precision.
So far it's working out great for me with an MX518 and it feels like control group hotkeys are a step up from the ZRM version.
0.3.3 vs 0.3.2:
I like the unit from larva changes, not afraid to spam "O" anymore in the beginning and the rest somehow just feels better as well.
My modifications:
Build ultralisk to "8" - G is far away.
Explode baneling to "N" - G is far away.
baneling enable/disable autotoarget to something far away (never used)
Spawn creep tumor added "I" as secondary key - same as for creep tumor on queens.
Upgrade to Lair and Hive to "K" - B is far away.
Still need to learn to find "N" and "M" better with my pinky, and I mess up infestor control quite alot still (need some more deliberate practice controlling multiple army groups in conjunction with infestors).
I'm thinking "P"->"O" might be eaiser for my brain to handle when wanting to fungal, even "P"->"O"->"O" for the unburrow fungal makes more sense to me for the same reason holding "O" to make drones does... might try that out tomorrow.
Ultralisk is a preference. G feels more comfortable for me.
Explode baneling is far away because it's terrible when you accidentally hit that key. Since M is Stop, you could easily hit explode accidentally if you want to use Stop for some reason.
Building auto-target change makes sense.
Creep Tumor change makes sense. I think it's also better because the ring finger is stronger than the pinky.
Lair and Hive are on B because B is not a key used by larvae. When Upgrade to Lair/Hive is on K, then if you have no larva and try to make an ovie you make a Lair/Hive.
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after not playing any sc2 for a while ive now started using this and ive only played one actual game sofar (3v3, wont do any 1v1s till I know what the heck im doing), but it feels nice. Its definately more tiresome than normal setup, possibly because im not used to it and possibly because I can reach everything a lot faster. I see a lot of promise.
Only real problem im having is that im a lefthanded guitarist but play sc2 righthanded so my long fingernails get in the way on the keyboard haha...
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What about long Zerg macro games? Just started, so injecting feels damn wierd. If i got long games i can get up 7-8 Bases with only 5 Camera positions or am i wrong? I used Backspace method and QWERT grid before (I am right handed). I had the problem of queens runnin all over the place but i learned to live with that. Gonna try it for some more time and get used to it. But setting Camera locations is also difficult. Giving some better Feedback later .
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On July 18 2012 13:14 Akylol wrote:
What about long Zerg macro games? Just started, so injecting feels damn wierd. If i got long games i can get up 7-8 Bases with only 5 Camera positions or am i wrong? I used Backspace method and QWERT grid before (I am right handed). I had the problem of queens runnin all over the place but i learned to live with that. Gonna try it for some more time and get used to it. But setting Camera locations is also difficult. Giving some better Feedback later .
Flip Y and U so that base cam is closer to the base keys. That's what I did 
@Jak Concerning the camera hotkeys, I assumed thumb on alt would be uncomfortable because next subgroup (/) is worse than it could be imo. Next subgroup on zero would make previous subgroup a lot easier (ctrl or shift+/) and flows perfectly in tandem with the control group for production structures/queens and ups.
Back to camera keys, alt+J/I/O/P/; with thumb on alt feels a lot better than I thought it would. With practice it should be effortless, especially since cameras, especially for a CC/Nex/Hatch, have to be set so infrequently.
I still disagree that layered injects are better, though. Especially when you have a macro hatch or when, as Akylol said, you have "7-8 bases."
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On July 18 2012 08:18 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 07:19 Nurfie wrote:
Switched to ZRMM 0.3.3 from ZRM 0.3.2.
Mouse vs no mouse:
I use a clawish grip, but it feels like unless you completely have to rearrange your hand when using the mouse buttons it should not be an issue since you're basically only using it for macro which requires zero mouse precision.
So far it's working out great for me with an MX518 and it feels like control group hotkeys are a step up from the ZRM version.
0.3.3 vs 0.3.2:
I like the unit from larva changes, not afraid to spam "O" anymore in the beginning and the rest somehow just feels better as well.
My modifications:
Build ultralisk to "8" - G is far away.
Explode baneling to "N" - G is far away.
baneling enable/disable autotoarget to something far away (never used)
Spawn creep tumor added "I" as secondary key - same as for creep tumor on queens.
Upgrade to Lair and Hive to "K" - B is far away.
Still need to learn to find "N" and "M" better with my pinky, and I mess up infestor control quite alot still (need some more deliberate practice controlling multiple army groups in conjunction with infestors).
I'm thinking "P"->"O" might be eaiser for my brain to handle when wanting to fungal, even "P"->"O"->"O" for the unburrow fungal makes more sense to me for the same reason holding "O" to make drones does... might try that out tomorrow. Ultralisk is a preference. G feels more comfortable for me. Explode baneling is far away because it's terrible when you accidentally hit that key. Since M is Stop, you could easily hit explode accidentally if you want to use Stop for some reason. Building auto-target change makes sense. Creep Tumor change makes sense. I think it's also better because the ring finger is stronger than the pinky. Lair and Hive are on B because B is not a key used by larvae. When Upgrade to Lair/Hive is on K, then if you have no larva and try to make an ovie you make a Lair/Hive.
Yeah, you're right about accidental explodes and upgrades, gotta rethink at least the explode.
Switching fungal to O opens up switching the often-used Infested terran to I and degrading neural to N, will definitely try this today.
Can anyone explain to me how they use the free cameras? Specifically H. <3
I've never really learned to use camera hotkeys and I'm unsure how much that key would help me compared to using it as an easy to reach ability key.
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My 2 cents concerning Queen injects :
On my side, i'm injecting via the minimap : select group of injecting queens => press your inject key ("O" for me as i'm using ZRM) and keep it pressed => left click your hatcheries on the minimap.
You know you are on a "good" hatchery (with no inject running) if the cursor is green, otherwise if the hatchery is running an inject, or if it's the wrong building (not an hatchery), the cursor will be gray.
I've tried to inject via camera hotkeys, but im still faster via the minimap, but i think it depends on people and the way they feel it easier
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On July 18 2012 03:33 VanGarde wrote:
Right, time for some insight!
About hotkeys for abilities and use frequency. What is difficult about setting hotkeys for some multi-ability units when you set it based on frequency is that the meta game constantly changes the frequency. For me, seeker missile on , is absolutely terrible. It is a terribly inconvenient key. A few months ago it would had been fine because I used it so rarely but since the raven has now become standard in TvZ metagame I find myself using it more than both PDD and Turret.
In either case, I propose switching Seeker missile in TRM from , to '. That would put seeker missile on the same key as cloak for the banshee. Much easier to use.
i agree. seeker missile was actually much easier on 8 than it is now. but now 8 is a camera.
, is a very painful key for abilities, particularly ones you need to press quickly on the fly like seeker missile.
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Regarding Layered Inject Method:
I have tried the methods you all are suggesting (backspace inject, click on minimap), but I haven't found anything faster and more accurate than layered camera inject with the Core. You can disagree, but I honestly believe you are doing yourself a severe disservice if you do not spend a solid hour practicing it (and nothing else!) to get good at it, before you dismiss it. You have been informed, but the choice is always yours.
On July 18 2012 13:14 Akylol wrote:
What about long Zerg macro games? Just started, so injecting feels damn wierd. If i got long games i can get up 7-8 Bases with only 5 Camera positions or am i wrong?
On July 18 2012 14:04 Antylamon wrote:
I still disagree that layered injects are better, though. Especially when you have a macro hatch or when, as Akylol said, you have "7-8 bases."
There are only 5 base cameras under this layout. It is possible to add base cameras up to 8, but then you would have no free cameras. Are you trying to inject on more than 5 bases? I didn't think anyone tried more than 3 - 4 injecting queens max.
As far as macro hatches, I suggest using J I O P for your saturated bases and ; for your macro hatch. You want your base cams where your injecting queens are. If you for instance like two macro hatches with injecting queens then designate P and ; or J and ;
It will make more sense when you actually try it out in the game. If you are having trouble with it i'm sure Jak would love to help you on his stream chat, so he can demonstrate/answer questions you may have.
On July 18 2012 19:30 WFGolgoth wrote:My 2 cents concerning Queen injects : On my side, i'm injecting via the minimap : select group of injecting queens => press your inject key ("O" for me as i'm using ZRM) and keep it pressed => left click your hatcheries on the minimap. You know you are on a "good" hatchery (with no inject running) if the cursor is green, otherwise if the hatchery is running an inject, or if it's the wrong building (not an hatchery), the cursor will be gray. I've tried to inject via camera hotkeys, but im still faster via the minimap, but i think it depends on people and the way they feel it easier
On July 18 2012 13:14 Akylol wrote:
I used Backspace method and QWERT grid before (I am right handed). I had the problem of queens runnin all over the place but i learned to live with that.
I appreciate your feedback and i have tried injecting via minimap. I do not have the minimap accuracy that you probably do, but I really believe if you gave layered inject an hour of dedicated practice time you would love it over your old method. You have to build up the muscle memory before you can see the true potential.
After a few weeks of practice, I can be in battle, accurately inject 3 fully saturated bases and a macro hatch in literally 1 - 2 seconds and jump back to the battle. All my queens have < 25 energy and I don't have to worry about missing clicks on the minimap and my queens never run around all over the map because i clicked my 4th saturated base with no queen there, etc.
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EPT
