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On September 15 2013 14:11 Dasian wrote:
Hi JaKaTaK,
Making the switch as a Zerg and so far I find myself doing a lot of things I don't mean to. I'm still trying to get my muscle memory up to speed, so hopefully these will go away in time, but so far here is what I'm experiencing:
(Using Zerg Medium for Righties)
- Cancelling by mistake. I'm not sure why cancel is sometimes } AND , . I'm trying to keep my creep queens on [, and I've noticed that I fat finger these cancels often. Once I accidentally cancelled my natural hatch 3 times. I don't think cancel needs to be so easily accessible, in fact i think putting it far away (possibly F8), would be better to specifically prevent accidental presses.
- When no larva is present muscle memory for making overlords, zerglings and roaches results in queuing up multiple queens, researching drop and overlord speed. This happens every game. I believe these hotkeys should be moved to prevent these miss-hits when no larva exists.
I do see the benefits of having everything so close, and believe I'll stick with it as things seem pretty well thought out. The rapid fire is pretty awesome, and although I kind of miss using the F keys for cameras, I kind of get how this may be better in the long run.
Cheers
I also use [ for creep queens and actually while i have the latest version of the core ZRM i did edit cancel to F8 myself as I find that is better for me. I usually make some personal adjustments to any Core version I am using as it suits my personal play style. 
As for the cameras, as you get used to ZRM I am sure you will find they could not be in a better spot for camera inject method. I used to use F keys as well when I played with grid, but give it some time and I am sure you will find you like this layout better.
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as far as cancel goes, we put 2 keys for it, choose whichever one suits you best
It is nearly impossible to not overlap larva with hatchery commands. If we did that, there would be keys way across the keyboard for things. Feel free to do this yourself, however you will likely find it inefficient. Alternatively, you can learn to be more aware of your larva and not spam things. This will lead to more efficient play long term as well as a better overall layout, which is why we chose to do this for the stock version.
as Aummadour said, feel free to make your customizations, almost everyone has their own little twist on TheCore to add
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On September 16 2013 01:45 JaKaTaK wrote:as far as cancel goes, we put 2 keys for it, choose whichever one suits you best It is nearly impossible to not overlap larva with hatchery commands. If we did that, there would be keys way across the keyboard for things. Feel free to do this yourself, however you will likely find it inefficient. Alternatively, you can learn to be more aware of your larva and not spam things. This will lead to more efficient play long term as well as a better overall layout, which is why we chose to do this for the stock version. as Aummadour said, feel free to make your customizations, almost everyone has their own little twist on TheCore to add
Thanks for the quick reply! Yes I will more than likely make these changes locally. Although (in my humble opinion), these overlapping hotkeys are a critical flaw in the zerg layout and should be addressed in the the default Core layout.
I do not believe Overlord Drop and Overlord Speed need to be in what qualifies as an efficient key location, as these are once-per-game upgrades that, if hit accidentally early-game, can cause big hiccups in timing and production. It's hard to notice if these are researching accidentally, especially if you're building queens at the same time.
As for the build queen hotkey, accidentally queuing up 10 queens when trying to spawn mass zerglings happens so often and is extremely annoying to undo, especially if you're intentionally researching Overlord speed and or Overlord drops at the same time.
Again, I will make these changes locally, but am merely stating my opinions of what could be areas of concern for other fellow Zergs.
I appreciate all the work you put into helping out noobs like myself with the core, I have watched all of the videos and am starting to see the potential in the layout!
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Glad you're digging it. I do strongly suggest giving the larva-aware playstyle a try. But of course, to each his/her own
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On September 16 2013 08:16 JaKaTaK wrote:Glad you're digging it. I do strongly suggest giving the larva-aware playstyle a try. But of course, to each his/her own
In hectic situations, Zergs rely on their muscle memory to build units. Being punished for trying to queue zerglings before an inject pops discourages development of this muscle memory and encourages unnecessary and inefficient hesitation, along with the time it takes to physically look away from the minimap, field of battle, or resources corner to check the bottom right for a larva number.
Although I understand and agree that being larva-aware is extremely important, I do not agree that not being aware 100% of the time should be a punishable offense. If there is no larva, and your muscle memory presses the keys to make a pair of zerglings, it should not make a queen.
Although the keys are conveniently placed, I still argue that in the specific case of the Zerg Hatcheries, the convenient key placement actually results in less efficient overall play, and that the layout for the Core as Zerg could see an increase in practical efficiency by eliminating these three error-prone bindings.
Just trying to help
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On September 16 2013 09:03 Dasian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 08:16 JaKaTaK wrote:Glad you're digging it. I do strongly suggest giving the larva-aware playstyle a try. But of course, to each his/her own In hectic situations, Zergs rely on their muscle memory to build units. Being punished for trying to queue zerglings before an inject pops discourages development of this muscle memory and encourages unnecessary and inefficient hesitation, along with the time it takes to physically look away from the minimap, field of battle, or resources corner to check the bottom right for a larva number. Although I understand and agree that being larva-aware is extremely important, I do not agree that not being aware 100% of the time should be a punishable offense. If there is no larva, and your muscle memory presses the keys to make a pair of zerglings, it should not make a queen. Although the keys are conveniently placed, I still argue that in the specific case of the Zerg Hatcheries, the convenient key placement actually results in less efficient overall play, and that the layout for the Core as Zerg could see an increase in practical efficiency by eliminating these three error-prone bindings. Just trying to help
This is was exactly what I thought before trying it, and honestly it hasn't been that bad. I got used to it easier than I thought I would.
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hey!
I'm playing Zerg too and recently switched to the Core and you are absolutely right.
1. Making lots of queens instead of zerglings, happens to me often now, at least once each game
2. Researching overlord speed instead of making overlord... freaks me out everytime, especially early game
I attributed it to my own lack of focus and still being in learning phase, but it might be a flaw in the Core as well. Maybe put "research overlord speed" and "make queen" on some other keys, but I have no idea.
There don't have to be 2 keys for cancel imo, so there would be 1 key free again. "U" and "N" might be good keys for the queen and overlord speed too?!
I always enjoy thinking about how the Core could be even better, but I hate only making changes for myself.
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In previous versions of TheCore, making queens was binded to U. I have since kept that setting even despite the new changes to TheCore. I didn't move the overlord drop or speed upgrade in the new versions however. Sometimes accidentally getting overlord speed is a good thing and it is binded to the make overlord button. I pretty much never get overlord drop.
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yah I have problem with making 10 queens often, and it's really annoying 
also, what do you think about having SPACE as Cancel ?
- Space is easy to press, so it's good for canceling expand to save that precious mineral
- While it's easy to press, it's hard to "press it by mistake" (almost impossible to press by mistake)
I press space button with this part of my hand. Also it's somehow remind me of ESC as cancel button (because it's separated and unique compare to other button, which make it work better as a Cancel button)
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/994/qzhz.jpg
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Space is one of the slowest and least ergonomic keys to hit from JIOP and the other home keys. Despite the fact that it is large and special, there are much better keys than it.
We'll be keeping the hatchery hotkeys the same for the trial period of TheCore 1.0 which will begin shortly and last until January 2014. At that point in time we'll reevaluate the situation and consider making changes.
That being said, I've made a mistake in the plan for the zerg hatchery hotkeys.
For ZRM:
Queen is now on K
Ovie Speed is now on J (with all other speed upgrades)
Ovie drops is now on I (same key as to make overlords)
Maybe this will give a small improvement, maybe not. This is what we're going for during the next test period. We're going to be a lot more methodical about changes after 1.0. Everything will be ready and prepared before release, all the visuals and documents will be updated along with the files including a changelog. Please keep the feedback coming in so we know what to look at for the next update
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sooo i am trying this out and i have to say after a few days of messing around vs ai and running through the campaign i have to say overall i am liking the ZRM. however i don't understand the choice of the keys for the control groups. having to hit alt was very difficult imo and i add like a lot of hatcheries :D i just went ahead and changed them so it was ctrl-shift-p for 1 and ctrl-shift-l for 2 and just ctrl-p and ctrl-l to add them. It didn't say i unbound anything so i just went ahead with it. (i did move around which control went to which key but i still have it all as the same keys)
Which brings me to my next question. Why is rotate right and left considered high enough to be \ and backspace? never ever have i used this in an actual game i was playing and because of that i moved them back to insert/delete and put my ctrl group 6 on ] and put that cancel drag selection to \.
Nothing really big or anything, i'm just curious why they were set up like that originally :D
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Adding control groups for hatcheries were originally done with control but it was found out that using alt for both camera and adding hatcheries was fast because it saved you one extra key press. To add a hatchery to the control group AND to add the camera attached to it at as well you would press Alt+J,K. Very quick and very easy.
Pros use rotate camera to see cloaked objects. I don't really see that as a big enough priority so I just moved it somewhere else.
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On September 16 2013 18:13 Bulgogi wrote:
Adding control groups for hatcheries were originally done with control but it was found out that using alt for both camera and adding hatcheries was fast because it saved you one extra key press. To add a hatchery to the control group AND to add the camera attached to it at as well you would press Alt+J,K. Very quick and very easy.
Pros use rotate camera to see cloaked objects. I don't really see that as a big enough priority so I just moved it somewhere else.
Rotate camera is also really helpful if you are being bunker rushed for being able to target down the building scv. There are some times when you can't right click the scv from the default camera angle.
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Ah okay. That makes sense, i've just never had any issues with it before but once i feel comfortable enough to start using camera hotkeys i may push it back over. Until then though, i'll stay with my current set up :D
and i've never really cared about observer spotting as zerg and i can usually catch dts well enough so i'll keep the rotate away, because i've never had an issue with bunker rushes
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@bahamut
when do you use a hotkey for cancel drag selection?
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On September 16 2013 14:09 JaKaTaK wrote:Space is one of the slowest and least ergonomic keys to hit from JIOP and the other home keys. Despite the fact that it is large and special, there are much better keys than it. We'll be keeping the hatchery hotkeys the same for the trial period of TheCore 1.0 which will begin shortly and last until January 2014. At that point in time we'll reevaluate the situation and consider making changes. That being said, I've made a mistake in the plan for the zerg hatchery hotkeys. For ZRM: Queen is now on K Ovie Speed is now on J (with all other speed upgrades) Ovie drops is now on I (same key as to make overlords) Maybe this will give a small improvement, maybe not. This is what we're going for during the next test period. We're going to be a lot more methodical about changes after 1.0. Everything will be ready and prepared before release, all the visuals and documents will be updated along with the files including a changelog. Please keep the feedback coming in so we know what to look at for the next update
Queen on "k" i can get behind, but I'd rather accidentally get ovi speed than drop. I get the logic (consistency) of putting speed on the same key everywhere but I don't think its that high of a priority.
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On September 17 2013 02:28 JaKaTaK wrote:
@bahamut
when do you use a hotkey for cancel drag selection?
Very rarely if it is what i think it is. But it was set to "]" so i just pushed it over to \ when i set my ctrl group 6 to "]"
Generally if i ever use this it is more in replays or as an observer. In game there is always something i can switch my selection to if i'm done doing an action, so i really don't use it in game.
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@lobotomist
I know what you mean. I want to try this out for the first run of TheCore 1.0 we'll see how everyone reacts to it and make changes if necessary in January.
@bahamut
cancel drag selection does not undo the selection you have. It is only used to make the selection box disappear, whatever you have selected will not change.
EDIT:
The Final Video for the OP is done. All that is left is an update of the visual aides and we'll change the names of the files to say TheCore xxx.SC2hotkeys (no beta) as well as the title of the OP.
Here's some tips for your first game with TheCore (some of you experienced players may have missed some of these):
P.S. Once this is done, we will begin working on TheCore Lite which will be a special version of TheCore on the left side of the keyboard for those players using laptops or who don't quite have the desk space for tilting etc. As usual this will be a group effort so prepare your feedbacks for when the medivacs come in.
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No mouseless versions anymore? (Specifically RRM.)
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From the OP
EDIT: also, I'm not following your question. If you go to the download, RRM is there...
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EPT
