This is a full wall in, i had no idea that was possible. 2 Pylons, he dropped the first one and then got second one down before my immediate probe pull could block it, and there is plenty of room to drop cannons etc.
I scouted late and such, but it feels like anything later than 9scout would be too late to see forge, and this is a really abusable spot. It is a lot worse than the Xel'naga Caverns one, and several others, because you only need 2 pylons to completely wall in, not 3, and you can build more than 1-2 cannons if you want to, or even wall a pylon that is getting damaged with a gateway, Gaulzi style. I cant see this getting broken at all if the first pylon goes down before you have a probe ready to block the other position.
Since i made a thread about it, were people aware of this before, do you think it should be patched etcetc, and are there any other super good positions like this that will instantly end the game if you dont block them on ladder maps?
youtube link ^
my reaction was slow and i didnt pull the closest probe/s but it was clearly not even close
Im suprised i heard nothing of it, there have been similar things posted on reddit and in TL threads all the time but i didnt hear about this one, or see it done before, i wasnt aware you could boss cannon rush with less than 3 pylons.
On May 14 2012 10:10 NachiMe wrote: the right pylon looks like it has a fair bit of surface area for your probes to kill prety quickly. Did you try that?
5 probes can attack it, but he can cancel and drop 2 more pylons behind it if you attack it for a little while. There is still room for atleast 1 cannon (i think 2) and you wouldnt be able to get as many probes on those pylons.
basically in PvP keep a close eye on their scouting probe, and be prepared to send your probes in the other side if you think he's going for a wall in. otherwise just palce your first pylon so it's impossible to fully wall it. Cannon rushes are crazy popular at the moment so it's worth putting a little more effort into making your base safer
On May 14 2012 10:27 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Only reason this came to be was because of that Spinecrawler double evo block on this map that someone posted.
2 evo's and a spine crawler have very different walling requirements, and you can hardcounter that by just building 2 spines in range of his 1 spine, and not attacking the evo's. If 1 pylon goes down here before you are ready to block the second one, the game is over.
Also, yes, this is commonly known and has been done about 4-5 times in professional games starting from about when the map first came out. Besides blocking the pylons, there's another option to stop it. At the redbull lan, Sase let the pylons/cannon go up vs JYP and expanded to the natural while mining from a few patches that the cannon couldn't hit. He preceded to win that game. Look it up.
Grab probe and send to red arrow. Build pylon(green box). Probe hops through crack. Attack enemy probe. Cancel pylon. And get 2nd probe in there as well. Do this fast. As generally they will use their available mins to get those first 2 down. If they get a cannon or other pylon up in the nook you need to go through, then your screwed.
You should always build a pylon back there anyways. I've held it off when they get the pylons up by going through the pylons on the right. The first pylon can be hit by 5 units so it dies quickly and I was able to get a 2nd pylon down and kill the probe before a cannon finished but then I had to wait for enough zealots to kill the cannon and actually ended behind =/
On May 14 2012 10:32 thesnarf wrote:
Grab probe and send to red arrow. Build pylon(green box). Probe hops through crack. Attack enemy probe. Cancel pylon. And get 2nd probe in there as well. Do this fast. As generally they will use their available mins to get those first 2 down. If they get a cannon or other pylon up in the nook you need to go through, then your screwed.
I saw this on hero's stream a week or two ago. He beat it pretty easily by getting his probes next to the pylon then making them stack by right clicking a mineral patch, then all attack the pylon as they stack so they all hit at the same time (he did this repeatedly, and also had a zealot hacking away)
You can stop this cannon rush by pulling probes and attacking both pylons immediately. 3-4 Probes per pylon and a chrono'd zealot will stop this easily.
On May 14 2012 11:45 FGL wrote: You can stop this cannon rush by pulling probes and attacking both pylons immediately. 3-4 Probes per pylon and a chrono'd zealot will stop this easily.
No, this is very hard to stop. The probe inside the pylon wall, can make a 2nd pylon wall and the cannon will be on time. Is pretty annoying to ladder pvp on daybreak right now.
You have to either make another nexus with pretty tight timings to not be behind, or be fast and follow the probe and kill it even inside the wall.
I will gladly hear any real answer to the walled cannon rush with wall back up. And btw this is pretty old but become popular with the gaulzi (dk the proper name) video.
Grab probe and send to red arrow. Build pylon(green box). Probe hops through crack. Attack enemy probe. Cancel pylon. And get 2nd probe in there as well. Do this fast. As generally they will use their available mins to get those first 2 down. If they get a cannon or other pylon up in the nook you need to go through, then your screwed.
Grab probe and send to red arrow. Build pylon(green box). Probe hops through crack. Attack enemy probe. Cancel pylon. And get 2nd probe in there as well. Do this fast. As generally they will use their available mins to get those first 2 down. If they get a cannon or other pylon up in the nook you need to go through, then your screwed.
This doesn't work. You can only slide through your own buildings.
On May 14 2012 10:29 NrGmonk wrote: Moved to strategy forums.
Also, yes, this is commonly known and has been done about 4-5 times in professional games starting from about when the map first came out. Besides blocking the pylons, there's another option to stop it. At the redbull lan, Sase let the pylons/cannon go up vs JYP and expanded to the natural while mining from a few patches that the cannon couldn't hit. He preceded to win that game. Look it up.
What Sase did requires excellent timings and macro. If Sase didn't plant his robo at exactly the right time, he wouldn't have had an immortal out by the time JYP had enough stalkers to just blink up and kill his gateway only army. Yes, it's possible to deal with cannon rushes this way, but it's very difficult. Usually just building a forge as soon as I see his forge and doing cannon battles works out well enough for me, but I can see why on this map you might not be able to scout it so easily.
The point is, on ladder, most of the time players let you see their 9 scout probe, and I just get ready to have one probe block a pylon wall off. Yes, in the JYP v. Sase game, JYP hid his probe because he knew the exact building sight ranges, but ladder players wouldn't. Another thing to note, if you take the right side gas or can't mine from the left side gas, you won't be able to get out stalkers (without having probes enter from the far side and taking a long path), and stalkers are an important part of the defense - so take the left side gas always.
Still, Sase did a great defense that takes a professional ability to execute as well as he did, and would be difficult in ladder, but very possible For everything else, just cannon battle. They're epic anyways.
On May 14 2012 10:29 NrGmonk wrote: Moved to strategy forums.
Also, yes, this is commonly known and has been done about 4-5 times in professional games starting from about when the map first came out. Besides blocking the pylons, there's another option to stop it. At the redbull lan, Sase let the pylons/cannon go up vs JYP and expanded to the natural while mining from a few patches that the cannon couldn't hit. He preceded to win that game. Look it up.
Well, that hadn't been performed with the exact same pylon placement as the one in the OP. I believe that the kind of block that the OP shows allows the rusher to place a cannon behind the fifth mineral patch from the left, covering the whole of the mineral line.
Grab probe and send to red arrow. Build pylon(green box). Probe hops through crack. Attack enemy probe. Cancel pylon. And get 2nd probe in there as well. Do this fast. As generally they will use their available mins to get those first 2 down. If they get a cannon or other pylon up in the nook you need to go through, then your screwed.
This doesn't work. You can only slide through your own buildings.
There is a Grand master on NA server who does nothing but 14 forge into a map abusive cannon rush vs every race and EVERY game, gazi or something like that.
Pretty crazy how strong a well thought out cannon rush and abuse of the map can get you gm with out needed to play a macro game or build units for that matter lol.
Happend to me on ladder, just a moved half my scvs against both pylons and won. Think he could have micro'd his pylons alittle bit better though. Plan B would be to let the cannons finish and float to nat I guess.
Grab probe and send to red arrow. Build pylon(green box). Probe hops through crack. Attack enemy probe. Cancel pylon. And get 2nd probe in there as well. Do this fast. As generally they will use their available mins to get those first 2 down. If they get a cannon or other pylon up in the nook you need to go through, then your screwed.
This doesn't work. You can only slide through your own buildings.
this has been used for a long time actually, i think i first saw it at the Red Bull Lan (the one which Ret won) and JYP did it to SaSe, but SaSe just expanded and got some stalkers out and eventually won
Grab probe and send to red arrow. Build pylon(green box). Probe hops through crack. Attack enemy probe. Cancel pylon. And get 2nd probe in there as well. Do this fast. As generally they will use their available mins to get those first 2 down. If they get a cannon or other pylon up in the nook you need to go through, then your screwed.
This doesn't work. You can only slide through your own buildings.
It works perfectly well, I just tried it.
No it doesn't.
He's right, it doesn't. But since the best solution is not having the problem at all, in PvP try building like this:
If they are persistant and really want to cannon behind your minerals, 6 probes will kill the pylon about the same time it finishes.
He only has one spot to drop a cannon and can't block you when you get through so he will actually lose more then you if he doesn't cancel pylons. Drop your cyber core while you kill his stuff, and you will be 65 seconds closer to warpgate/stalkers/etc. GG
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QRIfql.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/k6hhH.jpg)
Plan B would be to let the cannons finish and float to nat I guess.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LzdaWl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/puYjWl.jpg)
