EPT[D] PvT: PartinG 1gate FE - Page 3
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Lazzi
Switzerland1923 Posts
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On May 05 2012 18:16 iSHOKZ wrote: You need to cut probes and add 2 more gateways around 5:00 minutes to hold a 2 rax. Chronoboost your warptech 3 times. i tried it. i would even recommend if you have enough minerals after the 3 gates to add a 4th. After you hold the 2 rax (with 3 scvs for bunker - 1 marauder 7 marines 3 scvs) you can follow it up with a strong 4 gate and denie any lowground expansion or kill him. Tested it in 6 games - Masters Protoss edit: only if you do the build perfectly, means no pylo for the 26 supply block because your nexus will finish there Are you sure about the probe cut? Have you tried it as I suggested earlier? 4cb on warp gate From your first gate build zealot stalker stalker sentry. Add 2gates without probe cut after queuing 2nd stalker. Chrono sentry out of 1st gate after 4th chrono on core. Warpin 3 stalkers. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On May 05 2012 20:51 Lazzi wrote: What I personnaly do with build is sent my first zealot to the xel'naga and the first stalker to poke the terran and se what he's doing. With that I can see if he doing 1-1-1 and counter it quiet easily. # of people asking about 1/1/1 = 0 # of people asking about 2-3 rax / proxies / scv all-in = everyone in this thread | ||
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CaptainHaz
United States240 Posts
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
Also I don't have any more trouble vs 2 rax pressure with this build than I do with any other one gate expand. It's a tough build order balance but it's definitely not an auto loss(or win for that matter). | ||
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Chicken Chaser
United States533 Posts
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Ftrunkz
Australia2474 Posts
gasless marine+scv timing (whether its 12-14, 11-12-12, or any variation of the build) reactor-techlab 2-rax (The one that hits as early as possible at around 1 marine 5 marauder at 5:40ish) or tech or gasless CC (Both of which pose no immediate threat) Basically when scouting gasless, I much prefer to chrono boost the gateway to get as many units out in time incase of a 12-14 or other marine + scv pull variant. You already have delayed gateway units and even with the most chrono possible I still feel like this is incredibly difficult to hold, and you straight out 100% die if you chrono warpgate as opposed to gateway against this. However as has been mentioned in this thread, you are going to 100% die if you chrono units and not warpgate against reactor-techlab 2-rax's. So whenever you see gas I feel its important to chrono the warpgate and cut probes to put down the gates. I feel this 'overpreparing' doesn't leave you at a big disadvantage against other gas openings (such as reactor expand, 1-1-1's, or hellion harass expand/banshee harass expand builds) simply because your nexus is so so early that your economy is still sick compared to the terrans. I still however haven't actually properly tested this against the marine+scv pull all-ins, so if anyone has replays of this build confidently stopping 12-14 or anything of that sort against a player with competent micro i'd be very interested. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On May 05 2012 17:51 whistle wrote: + Show Spoiler [marine/scv, GSL spoiler] + http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67126/?set=4 Looks like Naniwa was going to do this build since he made a very late gate and didn't have gas until right after he scouted the proxy. He didn't make the nexus and couldn't even hold. I don't think there is any way to hold a good proxy rax unless you try to transition ASAP into a "normal" build. There is also no reason to get a 15 gate like Naniwa did in that vod. 13 gate is rather tight but with good mineral stacking I can make the gateway with my rallied 12th probe, continuously chronoboost, and still not have to cut probes before my 14th is started. Definitely 14 gate at the latest. Also I'm not convinced that scouting after nexus is safe; scouting for proxies after putting down the gate (or maybe rallying 14th/15th probe to scout) seems almost mandatory to be able to react in time to have a chance of holding. Of course if you don't gate scout then your gate timing isn't very relevant. I have been doing this build with core before pylon, do you have any thoughts on that? The way I see it is that I've already got such a big economy I'd rather prolong my probe cut a bit to be safer especially on ladder. I'm pretty sure Naniwa could've held that if he made his gate on 12/13 instead of 15 and/or he pulled probes to prevent the first bunker from finishing. | ||
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birdseed
19 Posts
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Universum
Canada192 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
If you bother to get the gate and assimilator before nexus I don't see why you shouldn't just get the second pylon and cybercore before it as well. Nexus 250 minerals earlier is nice but it also costs an earlier probe cut and faster cybercore just means you can skip the zealot and go stalker first. Fast access to stalkers is so much safer against pressure imo as their mobility makes them much better against gasless pressure then zealots are. 20 nexus builds with late scouting are just more solid then 17 nexus builds I think. With a fast cyber core you got a decent chance against multiple rax gasless pressure by canceling nexus and walling off the top of the ramp (i always put cyber there for that reason). Without the early core you just die to a 2-3 rax marine scv all-in, which you won't be scouting fast for sure. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On May 06 2012 03:49 Jaeger wrote: Are you sure about the probe cut? Have you tried it as I suggested earlier? 4cb on warp gate From your first gate build zealot stalker stalker sentry. Add 2gates without probe cut after queuing 2nd stalker. Chrono sentry out of 1st gate after 4th chrono on core. Warpin 3 stalkers. I was trying this build and here is a method I think might be useful to hold off 2 rax. Two points though: 1. There is no reason for a 14 gate, it can easily be built on 13 without interrupting probe production. On the other hand, since you are delaying the cyber core this makes no difference. 2. I think this build is best used with no scout at all on 4 player maps. There is a high chance the probe won't discover anything at all and you would rather have the extra mining. The build I tested tries to get out the same unit composition as MC's 1 gate FE by the time the earliest 2 rax hits i.e. about 5:50. This composition is 1 zealot, 3-4 stalkers. The way to get this using this build: 17 nexus 17 core 17 pylon resume probe production Gateway when feasible by direct rally Stalker upon completion of the core, along with warp gate (chrono warp gate) Stalker and second gate should finish at the same time, make two stakers, chrono both Two zealots after the two stalkers, can chrono both Warp gates finish, with resource surplus, and no probe cut. You can add in additional gates in between this, and there is no need for a probe cut. This is just emulating the triple stalker opening from PvP. There are several v cool features of this build: 1. No need for a 22 pylon, since the nexus finishes in time so that two stalkers can be queued without a probe cut. 2. By the time the two zealots are queued, the natural nexus has 1 chronoboost available, as does the original nexus. You can skip the 15 chrono for an additional one on warp gates 3. You have way more probes than any corresponding 1 gate build, meaning a scv pull is easier to deal with. PS: This build also negates an ebay block by getting the nexus so early. | ||
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Kajarn
United States126 Posts
You need to be able to see how many SUVs the Terran is pulling to go in with the first attack. Pull probes accordingly! Beyond that, any sort of early aggression is plenty easy to stop if you get warpgate finished around 6 minutes. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On May 11 2012 01:16 chestnutcc wrote: PS: This build also negates an ebay block by getting the nexus so early. That is a very good point. | ||
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Poo
Canada536 Posts
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On May 11 2012 02:00 Stealthypoo wrote: It's nice to see discussion on this type of 1g FE opening. What protoss should take note of (and some people have mentioned in prior posts), this build will not hold vs heavy 2 rax builds. As a general opener on korean ladder, this build plays the meta-game extremely well because the common tendency for T is to gasless FE. If any protoss reading here are interested in using this build, I would advise only using this in situations you are 'extremely' confident gas openers are in-fact 1-1-1's & are not in-fact 2 rax. Gasless/CC-first this build works nicely. I'm not certain 2 rax can do anything about this. Heavy 2 rax implies an scv pull, which is hard for any 1 gate fe to deal with. This build has more probes, potentially an extra gate, and the same composition that the MC 1 gate FE has. The big danger is a marine scv all in, which if reactive, comes after 5 mins. Any 1 gate fe has a hard time vs that, so that is a general weakness of all FE builds. The one puzzle is regarding scouting, and whether you should 17 scout or wait for the first stalker. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On May 11 2012 02:12 chestnutcc wrote: I'm not certain 2 rax can do anything about this. Heavy 2 rax implies an scv pull, which is hard for any 1 gate fe to deal with. This build has more probes, potentially an extra gate, and the same composition that the MC 1 gate FE has. The big danger is a marine scv all in, which if reactive, comes after 5 mins. Any 1 gate fe has a hard time vs that, so that is a general weakness of all FE builds. The one puzzle is regarding scouting, and whether you should 17 scout or wait for the first stalker. two things i don't like about this build that make stopping pressure hard: - warpgate is heavily delayed to the point it tends to finish right after instead of right before many common timings attack - first stalker is very late so you have less scouting and no way to soften up marines a bit | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On May 11 2012 00:45 Markwerf wrote: I don't like this build at all. If you bother to get the gate and assimilator before nexus I don't see why you shouldn't just get the second pylon and cybercore before it as well. Nexus 250 minerals earlier is nice but it also costs an earlier probe cut and faster cybercore just means you can skip the zealot and go stalker first. Fast access to stalkers is so much safer against pressure imo as their mobility makes them much better against gasless pressure then zealots are. 20 nexus builds with late scouting are just more solid then 17 nexus builds I think. With a fast cyber core you got a decent chance against multiple rax gasless pressure by canceling nexus and walling off the top of the ramp (i always put cyber there for that reason). Without the early core you just die to a 2-3 rax marine scv all-in, which you won't be scouting fast for sure. Not being worried about non-allin non-proxied gasless pressure in the context of large map means the earlier Nexus is a very covetable thing, and the cybercore is really not being delayed for too long with the amount of probes mining. Safety against the huge pressure builds, I'll hand to kcdc's variant, the "ancient" variant of zealot and stalker with second stalker optional before a nexus at 28 or 30. In a land where 1rax FE is extremely common, and pressure comes in the form of a little bunker pressure with 1rax of units or a second rax after scout, this PartinG play shines. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On May 11 2012 02:39 Markwerf wrote: two things i don't like about this build that make stopping pressure hard: - warpgate is heavily delayed to the point it tends to finish right after instead of right before many common timings attack - first stalker is very late so you have less scouting and no way to soften up marines a bit This can be adjusted for by forgoing the 15 chrono. Also the faster nexus nets you about 2 chronoboosts from it to use at your discretion. MC's 1 gate FE forgoes chrono'ing warp gates in favour of constantly chronoing out stalkers. In this build the core goes down at about 3:10, while in the MC variant, it is placed at about 2:40, the difference can be made up by 2-3 chronos. You can opt to play 'safer' with a 17 scout, 3 chronos on warp gates and a probe cut. This build also has 6-8 extra probes. | ||
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