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Both sides go FE, and from the terran point of view everything is normal - lets say 3rax, double gas, standard factory, +1 timing, starport. When the medevacs come out itll be around the 10th minute mark, which is also when toss is either rushing collosus and has at least 1 out, or is going for high templar and has archives out. The terran will react very differently in either cases that involves heavily on the starport. If collosus tech is scouted, terran will immediately stop medevac production (has only 2, at most 4 now) and start pumping vikings furiously.
THIS, is where PartinG's strategy comes in - He only gets 2 collis, stalkers in his main to prevent drop, two obs to constantly scout, and with good forcefields and decision makings he pretty much hold off any attack terran can do. After the two collosi and knowing terran had seen them, he immediately goes for high templar tech, stops all gas usage other than upgrades or high templars. By the time the terran realizes this, viking count would be too high, and not enough medevacs would be out to deal with the storms that follow. By this time army supply would already be in the 180-200s, preventing terran from being able to get more medevacs out, ghosts are not out, and with feedback, the terran will have LITTLE TO NO MEDEVACS to deal with the storm. Perhaps in the game against Mvp this isnt as apparent since his army was caught completely out of position, had stimmed twice, and only one medevac left to heal - which in any situation will and did become a total disaster for the terran
But from my point of view, as a terran, the mindgame presented here is disgusting. The collosi essentially becomes the bait, forcing a bad composition from the terran, which is already as fragile as glass when it comes to late game TvP.
You can argue the terran can burn scans/float factories in. I can argue that protoss can hide tech and units until needed, and easily snipe the factory with the 10ish stalkers at home (perhaps there is a magic number). I can also argue that the burning scans isnt viable when terran cannot deal any visible damage against a turtling protoss who knows how to defend. On that particular map, the only damage dealt was perhaps a delayed 3rd base. Drops were impossible as the main was small, 10 stalkers could easily prevent any drop play. The ramp also becomes the perfect choke for 2 collosi to burn through shit. In this situation - terran can only get a third and use all the money and mules possible to get a supply advantage - which, even with Mvp's famed macro, just cannot happen (supplies were dead even).
Maybe I should start a D thread on this, but I cannot access vods properly to study to replay myself and provide more detailed information.
EDIT - fixed grammar...jesus i fucking suck at typing when sleepy
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 03:08 padfoota wrote:
His strength in PvT isnt in this tho imo, after watching game 3 against Mvp - its in his abusal of knowledge in the Terran 1 Rax FE build that I feel is really smart.
Both sides go FE, and from the terran point of view everything is normal - lets say 3rax, double gas, standard factory, +1 timing, starport. When the medevacs come out itll be around the 10th minute mark, which is also when toss is either rushing collosus and has at least 1 out, or is going for high templar and has archives out. The terran will react very differently in either cases that involves heavily on the starport. If collosus tech is scouted, terran will immediately stop medevac production (has only 2, at most 4 now) and start pumping vikings furiously.
THIS, is where PartinG's strategy comes in - He only gets 2 collis, stalkers in his main to prevent drop, two obs to constantly scout, and with good forcefields and decision makings and pretty much hold off any attack terran can do now. He immediately goes for high templar tech, stops all gas usuage other than into upgrades or high templars. By the time terran realizes this, viking count would be too high, and not enough medevacs. By this time army supply would already be in the 180-200s, preventing terran from being able to get medevacs out at all, ghosts arent really out, and with feedback, the terran will have LITTLE TO NO MEDEVACS to deal with the storm. Perhaps in the game against Mvp this isnt as apparent since his army was caught completely out of position, had stimmed twice, and only one medevac left to heal - which in any situation will and did become a total disaster for the terran
But from my point of view, as a terran, the mindgame presented here is disgusting. The collosi essentially becomes the bait, forcing a bad composition from the terran, which is already as fragile as glass when it comes to late game TvP.
You can argue the terran can burn scans/float factories in. I can argue that protoss can hide tech and units until needed, and easily snipe the factory with the 10ish stalkers at home (perhaps there is a magic number). I can also argue that the burning scans isnt viable when terran cannot deal any visible damage against a turtling protoss who knows how to defend. On that particular map, the only damage dealt was perhaps a delayed 3rd base. Drops were impossible as the main was small, 10 stalkers could easily prevent any drop play. The ramp also becomes the perfect choke for 2 collosi to burn through shit. In this situation - terran can only get a third and use all the money possible to get a supply advantage - which, even with Mvp's famed macro, just cannot happen (supplies were dead even).
Maybe I should start a D thread on this, but I cannot access vods properly to study to replay myself and provide more detailed information.
You should start a new thread if you want to discuss terran's options in the standard midgame. This thread pertains to a specific build only, and is understandably protoss centric.
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On May 11 2012 03:14 chestnutcc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 11 2012 03:08 padfoota wrote:
His strength in PvT isnt in this tho imo, after watching game 3 against Mvp - its in his abusal of knowledge in the Terran 1 Rax FE build that I feel is really smart.
Both sides go FE, and from the terran point of view everything is normal - lets say 3rax, double gas, standard factory, +1 timing, starport. When the medevacs come out itll be around the 10th minute mark, which is also when toss is either rushing collosus and has at least 1 out, or is going for high templar and has archives out. The terran will react very differently in either cases that involves heavily on the starport. If collosus tech is scouted, terran will immediately stop medevac production (has only 2, at most 4 now) and start pumping vikings furiously.
THIS, is where PartinG's strategy comes in - He only gets 2 collis, stalkers in his main to prevent drop, two obs to constantly scout, and with good forcefields and decision makings and pretty much hold off any attack terran can do now. He immediately goes for high templar tech, stops all gas usuage other than into upgrades or high templars. By the time terran realizes this, viking count would be too high, and not enough medevacs. By this time army supply would already be in the 180-200s, preventing terran from being able to get medevacs out at all, ghosts arent really out, and with feedback, the terran will have LITTLE TO NO MEDEVACS to deal with the storm. Perhaps in the game against Mvp this isnt as apparent since his army was caught completely out of position, had stimmed twice, and only one medevac left to heal - which in any situation will and did become a total disaster for the terran
But from my point of view, as a terran, the mindgame presented here is disgusting. The collosi essentially becomes the bait, forcing a bad composition from the terran, which is already as fragile as glass when it comes to late game TvP.
You can argue the terran can burn scans/float factories in. I can argue that protoss can hide tech and units until needed, and easily snipe the factory with the 10ish stalkers at home (perhaps there is a magic number). I can also argue that the burning scans isnt viable when terran cannot deal any visible damage against a turtling protoss who knows how to defend. On that particular map, the only damage dealt was perhaps a delayed 3rd base. Drops were impossible as the main was small, 10 stalkers could easily prevent any drop play. The ramp also becomes the perfect choke for 2 collosi to burn through shit. In this situation - terran can only get a third and use all the money possible to get a supply advantage - which, even with Mvp's famed macro, just cannot happen (supplies were dead even).
Maybe I should start a D thread on this, but I cannot access vods properly to study to replay myself and provide more detailed information. You should start a new thread if you want to discuss terran's options in the standard midgame. This thread pertains to a specific build only, and is understandably protoss centric.
Im dumping it here since this seems to be about PvT and sharing it with you protosses, but as I typed it seemed to become more about terran since Im terran.
The build he does also starts out from the opening you posted I think, so...relevant  ?
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The thread discusses an opening, the mid game situation you describe is basically every PvT ever and in the v first line of your post you say you think this build is irrelevant to parting's strength and since this thread discusses that build, your post doesn't fit here.
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On May 11 2012 03:26 chestnutcc wrote:
The thread discusses an opening, the mid game situation you describe is basically every PvT ever and in the v first line of your post you say you think this build is irrelevant to parting's strength and since this thread discusses that build, your post doesn't fit here.
I must be super out of date if getting two collosus as BAIT is the standard opener. Either way yeah, my bad for posting it here.
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On May 11 2012 07:40 -stOpSKY- wrote:
No scout till 17? = /
I've seen Parting scout earlier but he does mostly scout on 17. Why he scouts earlier sometimes I have no idea since he does it so infrequently. Is it the map? Based on the player he is facing? Your guess is as good as mine.
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How do you hold off a 2 rac reactor/tech lab where the Terran pulls 4-5 scvs with this build? When the push comes up my ramp I only have a zealot and 3 stalkers, with warp gate almost finished, so I could hold with my next warp in and pulled probes most likely, but then I can't stop the bunkers from coming up and I am gonna lose anyway (in the actual game I pulled the probes at my nat to defend before warp in because I didn't want the bunkers to finish with my small army but just got crushed and gg'd out).
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I realllly like this build. Vs no-gas it's a perfect greedy yet safe build. Getting your nexus up faster does so many things, IMO it's essential if you're doing an early eco-heavy build like parting's quick 3rd into 8 gate etc.
also I just held a 2 rax (no gas, 1 proxied) with 4-5 scvs pulled (vs high masters terran) as I got my 3 gates up really quickly due to the quick nexus's econ boost and then got warp gate in time to crush it with stalker micro.
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How does this deal with 5-6 scvs pulled and arriving at your base at around 18 supply before a zealot can even be out with marines rallied? this should get a bunker up and it hits way before a stalker is out. then once the bunker is up the T can send a few back home and just expo himself. I suppose you could pull a TON of probes but with multiple bunkers going up and marines hitting you and if they put the bunkers in tough spots/nooks I don't see you holding the nexus/ not taking a ton of damage.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Huk's 20 supply nexus better as balance between safety and eco?
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Personally I think the 1 Gate FE when done right is much stronger then the Forge Expand. Every time I scout Forge Expand I immediately do a Reactor Marine 1 Fact Siege pressure to break the front and hopefully kill/delay the natural expansion. I follow up with an expansion and then a 2 base 1-1-1.
Parting is so gosu O_O. The issue becomes that the Forge expand is much more player friendly.
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On May 26 2012 11:16 GinDo wrote:
Personally I think the 1 Gate FE when done right is much stronger then the Forge Expand. Every time I scout Forge Expand I immediately do a Reactor Marine 1 Fact Siege pressure to break the front and hopefully kill/delay the natural expansion. I follow up with an expansion and then a 2 base 1-1-1.
Parting is so gosu O_O. The issue becomes that the Forge expand is much more player friendly.
Can't you just take super fast third because the guy just invested at least 300 minerals on useless defense (forge+cannon)? It's better imho.
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Review in my opinion (Masters League)
Ive been tooling around with this, and i have to say i love the results so far, i follow this up by continuing production with another 2 sentries (after the stalker), and adding 3 more gates when the cybercore is about half way done upgrading WG's, and push the terran nat with a followup 4 gate, i find this opening to be spot on for fluidly gearing up for a very hard to deal with attack at their front, while i drop my second and third gasses back home and a twilight (robo optional).
But honestly ive played 5 games so far and the pressure at the front has broken every terran i've faced. There was one guy that went mass hellion, so i walled in my nat and main ramp with pylons and gates, threw down a twilight and just went like 6 gate blink, negated any hellion damage and my push back ended the game.
Very good build IMO, i'll definantly be playing around more with it
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I experimented with a followup from this build that is like a 3 stalker rush.
After the first zealot is started, start one probe, and then make another gateway. Chronoboost warpgate twice, and chronoboost the second and third stalkers once each. After starting stalkers 2 and 3, cut probes and make a pylon and other gateway, then resume probes. When the stalkers finish, make a sentry and a zealot, and then the second assimilator and a pylon.
If you send the first zealot and stalker towards the terran base, it scouts a marine scv all-in very late (nearly at your natural). In this case, sacrifice the natural and wall the top of the main ramp with three pylons, trying to delay until your other stalkers finish. Maybe cancel the third gateway for more minerals. I don't know if this is safe from a marine scv all-in, but you have more units than the standard 1 gateway into 2 gateways at about 5 minutes would.
If the terran is 2-3 raxing and you need the units desperately, you can chrono the sentry and zealot, and then chronoboost warpgate as soon as you have the energy. Transform the gateways into warpgates and warp in almost whatever units you want (There might not be enough minerals for 3 stalkers, but 2 stalkers and 1 zealot will be ok; also, there may not be enough gas for 3 sentries, but 2 sentries and 1 zealot should be ok). This gives you 6 units before 6:20 (2 zealots, 3 stalkers, 1 sentry) and 9 units before 6:40 (probably 3 zealots, 5 stalkers, 1 sentry). These benchmarks are about the same as those in kcdc's 1 gate fe build, which he says is enough to beat a 2 rax. This is also better than what I was able to do with a 1 gate into 3 gate build. I assume someone better than me would be able to get better timings (I'm in platinum league).
The downside of this build is fewer probes; my tests gave me 3-5 fewer probes at 6:30 (compared to the 1 gate into 3 gate 2 rax defense). However, if the first zealot and stalker don't see anything coming, you can probably chronoboost probes and keep constant probe production and only be a few workers behind. Also, the build as said above would die to cloaked banshees. If you make a robo right after starting the 2 stalkers, then I'm not sure if that would be in time.
Is this build any good, and when (if at all) should it be used?
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Quite frankly, the three stalker rush is rather outdated and ineffective right now as more and more players are just dropped the bunker as soon as the CC finishes or even beforehand. I'd say the safest build right now is the robo-2gate followup.
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On May 26 2012 11:10 darkness wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Huk's 20 supply nexus better as balance between safety and eco?
super late robo, and you get way behind on eco too.
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I find most terran all-ins stoppable with this build, if I don't it's mostly my micro slip ups, but I am never even close to defending proxy marauders... they hit at time when my first stalker is about to pop out, and zealot + stalker < 2 marauders with concshell. Any advice?
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United Kingdom20308 Posts
On May 29 2012 08:10 Tommyth wrote:
I find most terran all-ins stoppable with this build, if I don't it's mostly my micro slip ups, but I am never even close to defending proxy marauders... they hit at time when my first stalker is about to pop out, and zealot + stalker < 2 marauders with concshell. Any advice?
Probes are excellent vs marauders. Dont hesitate vs certain all ins to mass overmake probes, they are great vs marauders (for swarming and dealing damage or forcing shots away from your zealot/stalker/s and vs a lot of all ins, you can either have enough probes left to be far ahead even after losing a lot of them, or you can simply swarm the terran with them to overcome his army. In particular, with this opening or 15 nexus vs the supply drop 12 marine 12 scv at 5:00-5:20 timing, you can only have 1 gate of production, no warpgate, by far your best choice is to simply mass build probes and accept their use as an army unit when the time comes, as you have no time to build gateways and your nexii can take their place as production facilities
[/rant]
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EPT
