The PartinG 1gate FE seems to have been a little overshadowed by the PvT forge expand.
I don't have enough experience with it yet to make a guide but it deserves some more attention.
Rough skeleton:
9 pylon (chrono probes x3)
14 gateway
17 assimilator
17 nexus
17 pylon (at natural) -> scout
17 core
18 zealot
warpgate
stalker
It has several wonderful little timings that line up:
You get 16 probes mining minerals in you main as fast as possible.
Your 17th probe rallies perfectly to most naturals to build the nexus on time.
There is no wasted mining time with a probe traveling back and forth unnecessarily, the 17th probe goes out builds the nexus the 2nd pylon and scouts.
Your gas finishes right after you place your nexus and 2nd pylon so you get full 16 workers on mineral efficiency until you're about to place your core. (note there seems to be only 2 on gas for a brief period here)
The nexus finishes right on time to serve as a replacement for your 3rd pylon.
I think this build was first debuted by TAiLS in the GSTL semi finals and he does it regularly on his stream from what I've seen. It does indeed seem like a really cool build, I hope it garners more popularity and we get to see more games featuring it in the future.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention! I love variations of the 1 gate FE, I'm also a fan of PartinG's style, so obviously his builds will line up well with his style. Though I'm curious, how do you think this stands against gas builds like a 1-1-1 or rather a 2 rax pressure--obviously faster nexus' are better against gasless FE, but gas builds aren't entirely uncommon--especially on ladder.
On May 04 2012 13:56 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: Thanks for bringing this to my attention! I love variations of the 1 gate FE, I'm also a fan of PartinG's style, so obviously his builds will line up well with his style. Though I'm curious, how do you think this stands against gas builds like a 1-1-1 or rather a 2 rax pressure--obviously faster nexus' are better against gasless FE, but gas builds aren't entirely uncommon--especially on ladder.
Well the faster the nexus the better against 1-1-1 IMO. Seems to be pretty easy to hold 1-1-1 in my limited experience with it.
By 2rax pressure I'll assume you mean 2rax reactor then techlab: I haven't run into it yet but it seems like it should be ok.
The attack timing will vary a little by map and spawn positions these are the timings for an attack hitting your natural I have on hand from Xel'Naga Caverns: 6:10 - some scvs - 7 marines - 1 maruader 6:25 - some scvs - 9 marines - 2 maruaders
You can get your first warpin out in time for the 6:10 attack with I believe 3cbs on warpgate, might need 4 though I haven't tested it.
In the GanZi vs PartinG game on Metropolois there is a 2rax although cross position metropolis is a very long rush distance. Still PartinG has 3gates finish up with warpgate just before 6 minutes. He builds a zealot stalker stalker sentry from his first and warps in 3 stalkers for a total of 1zealot 1sentry 5stalker.
I think with good control you should be fine but like I said I have no experience with it.
It is kind of risky vs a heavy 2 rax etc (since WG comes out so late), so a different version of this build that I've seen many P do is get their normal 13 gate/15 gas and then pull probes off of gas if you scout a no-gas/CC first terran, and get your nexus up before your cybercore --> probes back on gas after nexus as well. the point of this all, is to still be able to do a MC-style FE if your opponent is indeed going for gas OR get a quick nexus vs no-gas.
unless of course you scout your opponent's no-gas before you take your own 15 gas (9 pylon scout close positions/1v1 map), in which case you can just do the build in the OP.
On May 04 2012 14:36 Jaeger wrote: You can get your first warpin out in time for the 6:10 attack with I believe 3cbs on warpgate, might need 4 though I haven't tested it.
I was way off.
Your core starts ~3:20. Core finishes ~4:10. Warpgate will finish with no CBs ~6:50. If you don't scout an early CC you want to warpin ~6:10.
So to you need 5 CBs on warpgate tech to finish it at ~6:00 giving you the necessary 10s to transform gates to warpgates.
On May 04 2012 14:43 -Exalt- wrote: It is kind of risky vs a heavy 2 rax etc (since WG comes out so late), so a different version of this build that I've seen many P do is get their normal 13 gate/15 gas and then pull probes off of gas if you scout a no-gas/CC first terran, and get your nexus up before your cybercore --> probes back on gas after nexus as well. the point of this all, is to still be able to do a MC-style FE if your opponent is indeed going for gas OR get a quick nexus vs no-gas.
unless of course you scout your opponent's no-gas before you take your own 15 gas (9 pylon scout close positions/1v1 map), in which case you can just do the build in the OP.
If you're scouting on 9 you're not doing the build in the OP.
I'm not convinced it's actually risky against a 2 rax etc. You'd have to provide some more information.
As we are speaking of FE againts T, and this build particularly, safety of builds varies (safest to less safe): 2 gate FE - > MC's 1 gate - > Huk's 20 food -> Parting's 17 -> Axslav's Nexus first
It would be really great to find out which of this builds holds early agression, be it: - 1 rax - 2 rax - 3 rax allin - 11/11 allin
Especially Parting's, due to no pylon scout.
Also how safe is it to get a fast 3rd, or you have to be Parting to do that?
On May 04 2012 14:36 Jaeger wrote: You can get your first warpin out in time for the 6:10 attack with I believe 3cbs on warpgate, might need 4 though I haven't tested it.
I was way off.
Your core starts ~3:20. Core finishes ~4:10. Warpgate will finish with no CBs ~6:50. If you don't scout an early CC you want to warpin ~6:10.
So to you need 5 CBs on warpgate tech to finish it at ~6:00 giving you the necessary 10s to transform gates to warpgates.
You can actually start your core at ~3:09. Probably depends on the map.
After a little actual testing it seems to be pretty straight forward.
You spend all of your chronoboost on warpgate tech while building probes constantly. You build a zealot then a stalker. After you queue a 2nd stalker you add 2 gates. Then you add a 2nd gas followed by a 3rd pylon and a sentry and spend a chrono on the sentry to finish it up and help turn into a warpgate faster.
Although the timings might actually line up more nicely with 4cbs on your warpgate and spending the 5th on your first gate to get the sentry out a little faster. My warpgate in this run finished at 5:51 right with my 2nd and 3rd gate but I delayed 2 probes by I think ~10s to get the gates down at ~4:45 and my sentry still has 14s to build when warpgate was ready.
There's another pretty cool timing. Your nexus finishes just after you get 16 probes on minerals and 3 on gas in your main so you can rally your main nexus to your natural and the first probe that would be mining 3-to-a-patch in your main will mine perfectly from your natural as it finishes.
I did this before and just stopped it b/c of marine/scv all-in
I probably didn't invest too too much into it though but I'm curious to see how he reacts to that b/c it's really hard to scout that once the first marine comes out.
Offtopic: you are alive Jaeger....moa is alone lol
Anyone know why he places his 2nd pylon in such a vulnerable position? Don't you usually want it behind the nexus or on the highground so you can still warp in on the low ground but not risk it getting sniped?
On May 04 2012 16:23 tuestresfat wrote: Anyone know why he places his 2nd pylon in such a vulnerable position? Don't you usually want it behind the nexus or on the highground so you can still warp in on the low ground but not risk it getting sniped?
It grants vision so you can't be bunker rushed i guess. I just tried this bo and held 3 rax with it on shakuras, 2 probes were killed . He must target the pylon first otherwise i can warp in there and deal with it easily.
I don't understand the 14 gate... Unless you are scouting on 9 there is no reason at all as i far as i can tell to go 14 gate, even if you line up the chronos perfectly, at about 3/4 quarters of the second probe at 12 supply, you can still place a 13 gate if you didn't scout at nine and are working stacking even remotely okay.
On May 04 2012 19:09 Surili wrote: I don't understand the 14 gate... Unless you are scouting on 9 there is no reason at all as i far as i can tell to go 14 gate, even if you line up the chronos perfectly, at about 3/4 quarters of the second probe at 12 supply, you can still place a 13 gate if you didn't scout at nine and are working stacking even remotely okay.
It's still a small mining disruption to place it at 13. My 12th probe comes out at 1:34 and I have 135 minerals. To place a gate I'm going to have to either wait to start mining or pull a probe that's already mining off for a second to build it.
PartinG builds every structure up until the core with a probe just spawned from the nexus that isn't yet in a mining routine.
You also don't seem to need the gate any earlier. A 14 gate is done well before your going to scout anything or need it for any reason.
BTW yet another cool timing. The 2nd pylon finishes just before you get 100 minerals for your zealot that will take you over 18 supply.
On May 04 2012 16:23 tuestresfat wrote: Anyone know why he places his 2nd pylon in such a vulnerable position? Don't you usually want it behind the nexus or on the highground so you can still warp in on the low ground but not risk it getting sniped?
It grants vision so you can't be bunker rushed i guess. I just tried this bo and held 3 rax with it on shakuras, 2 probes were killed . He must target the pylon first otherwise i can warp in there and deal with it easily.
It also helps him scout a tiny bit quicker I guess.
Not many people do this anymore, but wouldn't this be rough to defend against the old 2 marauder conc shell timing? Or do you have your second stalker in time somehow?
On May 04 2012 19:09 Surili wrote: I don't understand the 14 gate... Unless you are scouting on 9 there is no reason at all as i far as i can tell to go 14 gate, even if you line up the chronos perfectly, at about 3/4 quarters of the second probe at 12 supply, you can still place a 13 gate if you didn't scout at nine and are working stacking even remotely okay.
I wouldn't read to much into it, it's clear you won't be needing the gateway to hit any strict timings. You can get it on 15 if you so desire it's probably not a big deal.
On May 05 2012 00:28 Lazzi wrote: I've been playing it for 2 weeks. It is awesome, you can hold any reactif pressure with good micro if you don't fuck up.
Yeah, it can be really good against most things T can throw at you. Like to see it vs. proxy rax more, though...
EDIT:
Also, this isn't really new. I know this video says "Nexus First" but it isn't a Nexus first opening that HuK uses. He uses more or less the same opening that the OP lays out and follows it up with a sick timing-attack.
That build is quite a bit different. Not nearly as refined and cool.
12gate 2chronos on probes instead of 3 Nexus built with 16th probe instead of 17th probe Core on 18 before gas etc.
On May 05 2012 00:28 Lazzi wrote: I've been playing it for 2 weeks. It is awesome, you can hold any reactif pressure with good micro if you don't fuck up.
Yeah, it can be really good against most things T can throw at you. Like to see it vs. proxy rax more, though...
EDIT:
Also, this isn't really new. I know this video says "Nexus First" but it isn't a Nexus first opening that HuK uses. He uses more or less the same opening that the OP lays out and follows it up with a sick timing-attack.
PvT: PartinG 1gate FE If you click on this thread, you already know what a 1 gate FE Im not sure if your oblivious to the important changes that parting adds in this build or your trying to self promote a youtube video. Either way, i think you need to realise the adaptation that players are taking from a 1 gate FE, these threads are about promoting strengths/weaknesses at all of them to get more ahead from what the terran player is doing. Mc 1 gate FE, Huks 1 gate FE, Parting 1 gate FE. There is a reason why there isnt just 1 GATE FE, you want an optimised build.Depending on the situation you should be able to choose each of these builds. Although, these builds are 'more or less' the same opener, they abuse the terrans opener meaning that you can get that slight advantage when transitioning
On May 05 2012 00:28 Lazzi wrote: I've been playing it for 2 weeks. It is awesome, you can hold any reactif pressure with good micro if you don't fuck up.
Yeah, it can be really good against most things T can throw at you. Like to see it vs. proxy rax more, though...
EDIT:
Also, this isn't really new. I know this video says "Nexus First" but it isn't a Nexus first opening that HuK uses. He uses more or less the same opening that the OP lays out and follows it up with a sick timing-attack.
What are you talking about, that's not even the same BO. Check the OP and watch the video again please.
Do you not know what "more or less" means? I was saying that the concept is similar, not that it is exactly the same thing. Check a dictionary and learn English again please.
EDIT:
I don't know why people are seeming so offended by an old video that shows a similar Nexus before Core concept =S I'm just pointing out that what PartinG is doing isn't exactly a new idea. He's just refined it a lot since it was first debuted.
PvT: PartinG 1gate FE If you click on this thread, you already of the 1 gateFE Im not sure if your oblivious to the important changes that parting adds in this build or your trying to self promote a youtube video. Either way, i think you need to realise the adaptation that players are taking from a 1 gate FE, these threads are about promoting strengths/weaknesses at all of them to get more ahead from what the terran player is doing. Mc 1 gate FE, Huks 1 gate FE, Parting 1 gate FE. There is a reason why there isnt just 1 GATE FE, you want an optimised build.Depending on the situation you should be able to choose each of these builds. Although, these builds are 'more or less' the same opener, they abuse the terrans opener meaning that you can get that slight advantage when transitioning
On May 05 2012 00:28 Lazzi wrote: I've been playing it for 2 weeks. It is awesome, you can hold any reactif pressure with good micro if you don't fuck up.
Yeah, it can be really good against most things T can throw at you. Like to see it vs. proxy rax more, though...
EDIT:
Also, this isn't really new. I know this video says "Nexus First" but it isn't a Nexus first opening that HuK uses. He uses more or less the same opening that the OP lays out and follows it up with a sick timing-attack.
What are you talking about, that's not even the same BO. Check the OP and watch the video again please.
Do you not know what "more or less" means? I was saying that the concept is similar, not that it is exactly the same thing. Check a dictionary and learn English again please.
EDIT:
I don't know why people are seeming so offended by an old video that shows a similar Nexus before Core concept =S I'm just pointing out that what PartinG is doing isn't exactly a new idea. He's just refined it a lot since it was first debuted.
PvT: PartinG 1gate FE If you click on this thread, you already of the 1 gateFE Im not sure if your oblivious to the important changes that parting adds in this build or your trying to self promote a youtube video. Either way, i think you need to realise the adaptation that players are taking from a 1 gate FE, these threads are about promoting strengths/weaknesses at all of them to get more ahead from what the terran player is doing. Mc 1 gate FE, Huks 1 gate FE, Parting 1 gate FE. There is a reason why there isnt just 1 GATE FE, you want an optimised build.Depending on the situation you should be able to choose each of these builds. Although, these builds are 'more or less' the same opener, they abuse the terrans opener meaning that you can get that slight advantage when transitioning
The video I showed is pretty old, nor is it mine: I've just known about it for a long time. The only reason I linked it is because as soon as I saw the Nexus before Core part of this build, it made me think of that video. I've also never said that they are the exact same build, I was just stating that the Nexus before Core concept had been done before and that a Gateway-timing would be a pretty strong transition (which is what the video shows). Anything else is an extrapolation; and a bad one at that.
I know what you were getting at. That game was also a nexus before core and 2nd pylon. It's still a very different build even if the concept is similar.
The flames directed towards you however are entirely misguided and derail the discussion of any merits or faults of the build.
^Yea i'd like to know the response to a few all-ins since you're scouting so late. if you don't see the cc on the low ground you're basically in the dark. that and warpgate is delayed a good 20s.
^^ if you CB warpgate constantly and add 2 gateways (for total 3) then you can get some units warped in at ~6:10--this is basically what you want to do if you don't confirm gasless cc. As for marine SCV allin with like proxy barracks (assuming worst case scenario), I'm not really sure, my guess is you could build your 3rd pylon at the top of the ramp to your main, so when you add the 2 gateways you can wallof--this build gets a fast sentry so you should be okay.
Looks like Naniwa was going to do this build since he made a very late gate and didn't have gas until right after he scouted the proxy. He didn't make the nexus and couldn't even hold. I don't think there is any way to hold a good proxy rax unless you try to transition ASAP into a "normal" build.
There is also no reason to get a 15 gate like Naniwa did in that vod. 13 gate is rather tight but with good mineral stacking I can make the gateway with my rallied 12th probe, continuously chronoboost, and still not have to cut probes before my 14th is started. Definitely 14 gate at the latest. Also I'm not convinced that scouting after nexus is safe; scouting for proxies after putting down the gate (or maybe rallying 14th/15th probe to scout) seems almost mandatory to be able to react in time to have a chance of holding. Of course if you don't gate scout then your gate timing isn't very relevant.
I have been doing this build with core before pylon, do you have any thoughts on that? The way I see it is that I've already got such a big economy I'd rather prolong my probe cut a bit to be safer especially on ladder.
You need to cut probes and add 2 more gateways around 5:00 minutes to hold a 2 rax. Chronoboost your warptech 3 times. i tried it. i would even recommend if you have enough minerals after the 3 gates to add a 4th. After you hold the 2 rax (with 3 scvs for bunker - 1 marauder 7 marines 3 scvs) you can follow it up with a strong 4 gate and denie any lowground expansion or kill him.
Tested it in 6 games - Masters Protoss
edit: only if you do the build perfectly, means no pylo for the 26 supply block because your nexus will finish there
What I personnaly do with build is sent my first zealot to the xel'naga and the first stalker to poke the terran and se what he's doing. With that I can see if he doing 1-1-1 and counter it quiet easily.
On May 05 2012 18:16 iSHOKZ wrote: You need to cut probes and add 2 more gateways around 5:00 minutes to hold a 2 rax. Chronoboost your warptech 3 times. i tried it. i would even recommend if you have enough minerals after the 3 gates to add a 4th. After you hold the 2 rax (with 3 scvs for bunker - 1 marauder 7 marines 3 scvs) you can follow it up with a strong 4 gate and denie any lowground expansion or kill him.
Tested it in 6 games - Masters Protoss
edit: only if you do the build perfectly, means no pylo for the 26 supply block because your nexus will finish there
Are you sure about the probe cut? Have you tried it as I suggested earlier?
4cb on warp gate From your first gate build zealot stalker stalker sentry. Add 2gates without probe cut after queuing 2nd stalker. Chrono sentry out of 1st gate after 4th chrono on core. Warpin 3 stalkers.
On May 05 2012 20:51 Lazzi wrote: What I personnaly do with build is sent my first zealot to the xel'naga and the first stalker to poke the terran and se what he's doing. With that I can see if he doing 1-1-1 and counter it quiet easily.
# of people asking about 1/1/1 = 0
# of people asking about 2-3 rax / proxies / scv all-in = everyone in this thread
Just as a small side note, there is literally no reason to be getting a gate on 14 when you can get it on 13 with the same economy since you aren't pylon scouting and you can chain the second chronoboost.
I still think it's odd that people favor the forge expand over this. With the PvT forge expand I feel the followups are a little limited and I hate relying on cannons when you don't necessarily have to. Parting's style feels very natural to me and whenever I don't go nexus first I think this is the best economic option.
Also I don't have any more trouble vs 2 rax pressure with this build than I do with any other one gate expand. It's a tough build order balance but it's definitely not an auto loss(or win for that matter).
I personally really like the build but I feel it's much easier to play off of a pylon scout so you are (on 2 & 3 player maps) getting in and seeing if they have gas. Otherwise against a good stutter step your probe isn't going to see anything past (best case scenario) the top of his ramp. Which can make it incredibly difficult to determine the terrans build, and there's basically three main scenarios you want to be careful of;
gasless marine+scv timing (whether its 12-14, 11-12-12, or any variation of the build) reactor-techlab 2-rax (The one that hits as early as possible at around 1 marine 5 marauder at 5:40ish) or tech or gasless CC (Both of which pose no immediate threat)
Basically when scouting gasless, I much prefer to chrono boost the gateway to get as many units out in time incase of a 12-14 or other marine + scv pull variant. You already have delayed gateway units and even with the most chrono possible I still feel like this is incredibly difficult to hold, and you straight out 100% die if you chrono warpgate as opposed to gateway against this. However as has been mentioned in this thread, you are going to 100% die if you chrono units and not warpgate against reactor-techlab 2-rax's. So whenever you see gas I feel its important to chrono the warpgate and cut probes to put down the gates. I feel this 'overpreparing' doesn't leave you at a big disadvantage against other gas openings (such as reactor expand, 1-1-1's, or hellion harass expand/banshee harass expand builds) simply because your nexus is so so early that your economy is still sick compared to the terrans.
I still however haven't actually properly tested this against the marine+scv pull all-ins, so if anyone has replays of this build confidently stopping 12-14 or anything of that sort against a player with competent micro i'd be very interested.
Looks like Naniwa was going to do this build since he made a very late gate and didn't have gas until right after he scouted the proxy. He didn't make the nexus and couldn't even hold. I don't think there is any way to hold a good proxy rax unless you try to transition ASAP into a "normal" build.
There is also no reason to get a 15 gate like Naniwa did in that vod. 13 gate is rather tight but with good mineral stacking I can make the gateway with my rallied 12th probe, continuously chronoboost, and still not have to cut probes before my 14th is started. Definitely 14 gate at the latest. Also I'm not convinced that scouting after nexus is safe; scouting for proxies after putting down the gate (or maybe rallying 14th/15th probe to scout) seems almost mandatory to be able to react in time to have a chance of holding. Of course if you don't gate scout then your gate timing isn't very relevant.
I have been doing this build with core before pylon, do you have any thoughts on that? The way I see it is that I've already got such a big economy I'd rather prolong my probe cut a bit to be safer especially on ladder.
I'm pretty sure Naniwa could've held that if he made his gate on 12/13 instead of 15 and/or he pulled probes to prevent the first bunker from finishing.
This opening is REALLY cool. However, I must point out that it is more susceptible to dumb all-ins like bitbybit etc... I'm not saying you can't defend them. But sometimes I just prefer to kill the scout before putting down nexus then the other way around
I don't like this build at all. If you bother to get the gate and assimilator before nexus I don't see why you shouldn't just get the second pylon and cybercore before it as well. Nexus 250 minerals earlier is nice but it also costs an earlier probe cut and faster cybercore just means you can skip the zealot and go stalker first. Fast access to stalkers is so much safer against pressure imo as their mobility makes them much better against gasless pressure then zealots are. 20 nexus builds with late scouting are just more solid then 17 nexus builds I think. With a fast cyber core you got a decent chance against multiple rax gasless pressure by canceling nexus and walling off the top of the ramp (i always put cyber there for that reason). Without the early core you just die to a 2-3 rax marine scv all-in, which you won't be scouting fast for sure.
On May 05 2012 18:16 iSHOKZ wrote: You need to cut probes and add 2 more gateways around 5:00 minutes to hold a 2 rax. Chronoboost your warptech 3 times. i tried it. i would even recommend if you have enough minerals after the 3 gates to add a 4th. After you hold the 2 rax (with 3 scvs for bunker - 1 marauder 7 marines 3 scvs) you can follow it up with a strong 4 gate and denie any lowground expansion or kill him.
Tested it in 6 games - Masters Protoss
edit: only if you do the build perfectly, means no pylo for the 26 supply block because your nexus will finish there
Are you sure about the probe cut? Have you tried it as I suggested earlier?
4cb on warp gate From your first gate build zealot stalker stalker sentry. Add 2gates without probe cut after queuing 2nd stalker. Chrono sentry out of 1st gate after 4th chrono on core. Warpin 3 stalkers.
I was trying this build and here is a method I think might be useful to hold off 2 rax. Two points though:
1. There is no reason for a 14 gate, it can easily be built on 13 without interrupting probe production. On the other hand, since you are delaying the cyber core this makes no difference.
2. I think this build is best used with no scout at all on 4 player maps. There is a high chance the probe won't discover anything at all and you would rather have the extra mining.
The build I tested tries to get out the same unit composition as MC's 1 gate FE by the time the earliest 2 rax hits i.e. about 5:50. This composition is 1 zealot, 3-4 stalkers. The way to get this using this build:
17 nexus 17 core 17 pylon resume probe production Gateway when feasible by direct rally Stalker upon completion of the core, along with warp gate (chrono warp gate) Stalker and second gate should finish at the same time, make two stakers, chrono both Two zealots after the two stalkers, can chrono both Warp gates finish, with resource surplus, and no probe cut.
You can add in additional gates in between this, and there is no need for a probe cut. This is just emulating the triple stalker opening from PvP. There are several v cool features of this build:
1. No need for a 22 pylon, since the nexus finishes in time so that two stalkers can be queued without a probe cut.
2. By the time the two zealots are queued, the natural nexus has 1 chronoboost available, as does the original nexus. You can skip the 15 chrono for an additional one on warp gates
3. You have way more probes than any corresponding 1 gate build, meaning a scv pull is easier to deal with.
PS: This build also negates an ebay block by getting the nexus so early.
It's nice to see discussion on this type of 1g FE opening. What protoss should take note of (and some people have mentioned in prior posts), this build will not hold vs heavy 2 rax builds. As a general opener on korean ladder, this build plays the meta-game extremely well because the common tendency for T is to gasless FE. If any protoss reading here are interested in using this build, I would advise only using this in situations you are 'extremely' confident gas openers are in-fact 1-1-1's & are not in-fact 2 rax. Gasless/CC-first this build works nicely.
On May 11 2012 02:00 Stealthypoo wrote: It's nice to see discussion on this type of 1g FE opening. What protoss should take note of (and some people have mentioned in prior posts), this build will not hold vs heavy 2 rax builds. As a general opener on korean ladder, this build plays the meta-game extremely well because the common tendency for T is to gasless FE. If any protoss reading here are interested in using this build, I would advise only using this in situations you are 'extremely' confident gas openers are in-fact 1-1-1's & are not in-fact 2 rax. Gasless/CC-first this build works nicely.
I'm not certain 2 rax can do anything about this. Heavy 2 rax implies an scv pull, which is hard for any 1 gate fe to deal with. This build has more probes, potentially an extra gate, and the same composition that the MC 1 gate FE has. The big danger is a marine scv all in, which if reactive, comes after 5 mins. Any 1 gate fe has a hard time vs that, so that is a general weakness of all FE builds. The one puzzle is regarding scouting, and whether you should 17 scout or wait for the first stalker.
On May 11 2012 02:00 Stealthypoo wrote: It's nice to see discussion on this type of 1g FE opening. What protoss should take note of (and some people have mentioned in prior posts), this build will not hold vs heavy 2 rax builds. As a general opener on korean ladder, this build plays the meta-game extremely well because the common tendency for T is to gasless FE. If any protoss reading here are interested in using this build, I would advise only using this in situations you are 'extremely' confident gas openers are in-fact 1-1-1's & are not in-fact 2 rax. Gasless/CC-first this build works nicely.
I'm not certain 2 rax can do anything about this. Heavy 2 rax implies an scv pull, which is hard for any 1 gate fe to deal with. This build has more probes, potentially an extra gate, and the same composition that the MC 1 gate FE has. The big danger is a marine scv all in, which if reactive, comes after 5 mins. Any 1 gate fe has a hard time vs that, so that is a general weakness of all FE builds. The one puzzle is regarding scouting, and whether you should 17 scout or wait for the first stalker.
two things i don't like about this build that make stopping pressure hard: - warpgate is heavily delayed to the point it tends to finish right after instead of right before many common timings attack - first stalker is very late so you have less scouting and no way to soften up marines a bit
On May 11 2012 00:45 Markwerf wrote: I don't like this build at all. If you bother to get the gate and assimilator before nexus I don't see why you shouldn't just get the second pylon and cybercore before it as well. Nexus 250 minerals earlier is nice but it also costs an earlier probe cut and faster cybercore just means you can skip the zealot and go stalker first. Fast access to stalkers is so much safer against pressure imo as their mobility makes them much better against gasless pressure then zealots are. 20 nexus builds with late scouting are just more solid then 17 nexus builds I think. With a fast cyber core you got a decent chance against multiple rax gasless pressure by canceling nexus and walling off the top of the ramp (i always put cyber there for that reason). Without the early core you just die to a 2-3 rax marine scv all-in, which you won't be scouting fast for sure.
Not being worried about non-allin non-proxied gasless pressure in the context of large map means the earlier Nexus is a very covetable thing, and the cybercore is really not being delayed for too long with the amount of probes mining. Safety against the huge pressure builds, I'll hand to kcdc's variant, the "ancient" variant of zealot and stalker with second stalker optional before a nexus at 28 or 30. In a land where 1rax FE is extremely common, and pressure comes in the form of a little bunker pressure with 1rax of units or a second rax after scout, this PartinG play shines.
On May 11 2012 02:00 Stealthypoo wrote: It's nice to see discussion on this type of 1g FE opening. What protoss should take note of (and some people have mentioned in prior posts), this build will not hold vs heavy 2 rax builds. As a general opener on korean ladder, this build plays the meta-game extremely well because the common tendency for T is to gasless FE. If any protoss reading here are interested in using this build, I would advise only using this in situations you are 'extremely' confident gas openers are in-fact 1-1-1's & are not in-fact 2 rax. Gasless/CC-first this build works nicely.
I'm not certain 2 rax can do anything about this. Heavy 2 rax implies an scv pull, which is hard for any 1 gate fe to deal with. This build has more probes, potentially an extra gate, and the same composition that the MC 1 gate FE has. The big danger is a marine scv all in, which if reactive, comes after 5 mins. Any 1 gate fe has a hard time vs that, so that is a general weakness of all FE builds. The one puzzle is regarding scouting, and whether you should 17 scout or wait for the first stalker.
two things i don't like about this build that make stopping pressure hard: - warpgate is heavily delayed to the point it tends to finish right after instead of right before many common timings attack - first stalker is very late so you have less scouting and no way to soften up marines a bit
This can be adjusted for by forgoing the 15 chrono. Also the faster nexus nets you about 2 chronoboosts from it to use at your discretion. MC's 1 gate FE forgoes chrono'ing warp gates in favour of constantly chronoing out stalkers. In this build the core goes down at about 3:10, while in the MC variant, it is placed at about 2:40, the difference can be made up by 2-3 chronos. You can opt to play 'safer' with a 17 scout, 3 chronos on warp gates and a probe cut. This build also has 6-8 extra probes.
Both sides go FE, and from the terran point of view everything is normal - lets say 3rax, double gas, standard factory, +1 timing, starport. When the medevacs come out itll be around the 10th minute mark, which is also when toss is either rushing collosus and has at least 1 out, or is going for high templar and has archives out. The terran will react very differently in either cases that involves heavily on the starport. If collosus tech is scouted, terran will immediately stop medevac production (has only 2, at most 4 now) and start pumping vikings furiously.
THIS, is where PartinG's strategy comes in - He only gets 2 collis, stalkers in his main to prevent drop, two obs to constantly scout, and with good forcefields and decision makings he pretty much hold off any attack terran can do. After the two collosi and knowing terran had seen them, he immediately goes for high templar tech, stops all gas usage other than upgrades or high templars. By the time the terran realizes this, viking count would be too high, and not enough medevacs would be out to deal with the storms that follow. By this time army supply would already be in the 180-200s, preventing terran from being able to get more medevacs out, ghosts are not out, and with feedback, the terran will have LITTLE TO NO MEDEVACS to deal with the storm. Perhaps in the game against Mvp this isnt as apparent since his army was caught completely out of position, had stimmed twice, and only one medevac left to heal - which in any situation will and did become a total disaster for the terran
But from my point of view, as a terran, the mindgame presented here is disgusting. The collosi essentially becomes the bait, forcing a bad composition from the terran, which is already as fragile as glass when it comes to late game TvP.
You can argue the terran can burn scans/float factories in. I can argue that protoss can hide tech and units until needed, and easily snipe the factory with the 10ish stalkers at home (perhaps there is a magic number). I can also argue that the burning scans isnt viable when terran cannot deal any visible damage against a turtling protoss who knows how to defend. On that particular map, the only damage dealt was perhaps a delayed 3rd base. Drops were impossible as the main was small, 10 stalkers could easily prevent any drop play. The ramp also becomes the perfect choke for 2 collosi to burn through shit. In this situation - terran can only get a third and use all the money and mules possible to get a supply advantage - which, even with Mvp's famed macro, just cannot happen (supplies were dead even).
Maybe I should start a D thread on this, but I cannot access vods properly to study to replay myself and provide more detailed information.
EDIT - fixed grammar...jesus i fucking suck at typing when sleepy
On May 11 2012 03:08 padfoota wrote: His strength in PvT isnt in this tho imo, after watching game 3 against Mvp - its in his abusal of knowledge in the Terran 1 Rax FE build that I feel is really smart.
Both sides go FE, and from the terran point of view everything is normal - lets say 3rax, double gas, standard factory, +1 timing, starport. When the medevacs come out itll be around the 10th minute mark, which is also when toss is either rushing collosus and has at least 1 out, or is going for high templar and has archives out. The terran will react very differently in either cases that involves heavily on the starport. If collosus tech is scouted, terran will immediately stop medevac production (has only 2, at most 4 now) and start pumping vikings furiously.
THIS, is where PartinG's strategy comes in - He only gets 2 collis, stalkers in his main to prevent drop, two obs to constantly scout, and with good forcefields and decision makings and pretty much hold off any attack terran can do now. He immediately goes for high templar tech, stops all gas usuage other than into upgrades or high templars. By the time terran realizes this, viking count would be too high, and not enough medevacs. By this time army supply would already be in the 180-200s, preventing terran from being able to get medevacs out at all, ghosts arent really out, and with feedback, the terran will have LITTLE TO NO MEDEVACS to deal with the storm. Perhaps in the game against Mvp this isnt as apparent since his army was caught completely out of position, had stimmed twice, and only one medevac left to heal - which in any situation will and did become a total disaster for the terran
But from my point of view, as a terran, the mindgame presented here is disgusting. The collosi essentially becomes the bait, forcing a bad composition from the terran, which is already as fragile as glass when it comes to late game TvP.
You can argue the terran can burn scans/float factories in. I can argue that protoss can hide tech and units until needed, and easily snipe the factory with the 10ish stalkers at home (perhaps there is a magic number). I can also argue that the burning scans isnt viable when terran cannot deal any visible damage against a turtling protoss who knows how to defend. On that particular map, the only damage dealt was perhaps a delayed 3rd base. Drops were impossible as the main was small, 10 stalkers could easily prevent any drop play. The ramp also becomes the perfect choke for 2 collosi to burn through shit. In this situation - terran can only get a third and use all the money possible to get a supply advantage - which, even with Mvp's famed macro, just cannot happen (supplies were dead even).
Maybe I should start a D thread on this, but I cannot access vods properly to study to replay myself and provide more detailed information.
You should start a new thread if you want to discuss terran's options in the standard midgame. This thread pertains to a specific build only, and is understandably protoss centric.
On May 11 2012 03:08 padfoota wrote: His strength in PvT isnt in this tho imo, after watching game 3 against Mvp - its in his abusal of knowledge in the Terran 1 Rax FE build that I feel is really smart.
Both sides go FE, and from the terran point of view everything is normal - lets say 3rax, double gas, standard factory, +1 timing, starport. When the medevacs come out itll be around the 10th minute mark, which is also when toss is either rushing collosus and has at least 1 out, or is going for high templar and has archives out. The terran will react very differently in either cases that involves heavily on the starport. If collosus tech is scouted, terran will immediately stop medevac production (has only 2, at most 4 now) and start pumping vikings furiously.
THIS, is where PartinG's strategy comes in - He only gets 2 collis, stalkers in his main to prevent drop, two obs to constantly scout, and with good forcefields and decision makings and pretty much hold off any attack terran can do now. He immediately goes for high templar tech, stops all gas usuage other than into upgrades or high templars. By the time terran realizes this, viking count would be too high, and not enough medevacs. By this time army supply would already be in the 180-200s, preventing terran from being able to get medevacs out at all, ghosts arent really out, and with feedback, the terran will have LITTLE TO NO MEDEVACS to deal with the storm. Perhaps in the game against Mvp this isnt as apparent since his army was caught completely out of position, had stimmed twice, and only one medevac left to heal - which in any situation will and did become a total disaster for the terran
But from my point of view, as a terran, the mindgame presented here is disgusting. The collosi essentially becomes the bait, forcing a bad composition from the terran, which is already as fragile as glass when it comes to late game TvP.
You can argue the terran can burn scans/float factories in. I can argue that protoss can hide tech and units until needed, and easily snipe the factory with the 10ish stalkers at home (perhaps there is a magic number). I can also argue that the burning scans isnt viable when terran cannot deal any visible damage against a turtling protoss who knows how to defend. On that particular map, the only damage dealt was perhaps a delayed 3rd base. Drops were impossible as the main was small, 10 stalkers could easily prevent any drop play. The ramp also becomes the perfect choke for 2 collosi to burn through shit. In this situation - terran can only get a third and use all the money possible to get a supply advantage - which, even with Mvp's famed macro, just cannot happen (supplies were dead even).
Maybe I should start a D thread on this, but I cannot access vods properly to study to replay myself and provide more detailed information.
You should start a new thread if you want to discuss terran's options in the standard midgame. This thread pertains to a specific build only, and is understandably protoss centric.
Im dumping it here since this seems to be about PvT and sharing it with you protosses, but as I typed it seemed to become more about terran since Im terran. The build he does also starts out from the opening you posted I think, so...relevant ?
The thread discusses an opening, the mid game situation you describe is basically every PvT ever and in the v first line of your post you say you think this build is irrelevant to parting's strength and since this thread discusses that build, your post doesn't fit here.
On May 11 2012 03:26 chestnutcc wrote: The thread discusses an opening, the mid game situation you describe is basically every PvT ever and in the v first line of your post you say you think this build is irrelevant to parting's strength and since this thread discusses that build, your post doesn't fit here.
I must be super out of date if getting two collosus as BAIT is the standard opener. Either way yeah, my bad for posting it here.
On May 11 2012 07:40 -stOpSKY- wrote: No scout till 17? = /
I've seen Parting scout earlier but he does mostly scout on 17. Why he scouts earlier sometimes I have no idea since he does it so infrequently. Is it the map? Based on the player he is facing? Your guess is as good as mine.
How do you hold off a 2 rac reactor/tech lab where the Terran pulls 4-5 scvs with this build? When the push comes up my ramp I only have a zealot and 3 stalkers, with warp gate almost finished, so I could hold with my next warp in and pulled probes most likely, but then I can't stop the bunkers from coming up and I am gonna lose anyway (in the actual game I pulled the probes at my nat to defend before warp in because I didn't want the bunkers to finish with my small army but just got crushed and gg'd out).
I realllly like this build. Vs no-gas it's a perfect greedy yet safe build. Getting your nexus up faster does so many things, IMO it's essential if you're doing an early eco-heavy build like parting's quick 3rd into 8 gate etc.
also I just held a 2 rax (no gas, 1 proxied) with 4-5 scvs pulled (vs high masters terran) as I got my 3 gates up really quickly due to the quick nexus's econ boost and then got warp gate in time to crush it with stalker micro.
How does this deal with 5-6 scvs pulled and arriving at your base at around 18 supply before a zealot can even be out with marines rallied? this should get a bunker up and it hits way before a stalker is out. then once the bunker is up the T can send a few back home and just expo himself. I suppose you could pull a TON of probes but with multiple bunkers going up and marines hitting you and if they put the bunkers in tough spots/nooks I don't see you holding the nexus/ not taking a ton of damage.
Personally I think the 1 Gate FE when done right is much stronger then the Forge Expand. Every time I scout Forge Expand I immediately do a Reactor Marine 1 Fact Siege pressure to break the front and hopefully kill/delay the natural expansion. I follow up with an expansion and then a 2 base 1-1-1.
Parting is so gosu O_O. The issue becomes that the Forge expand is much more player friendly.
On May 26 2012 11:16 GinDo wrote: Personally I think the 1 Gate FE when done right is much stronger then the Forge Expand. Every time I scout Forge Expand I immediately do a Reactor Marine 1 Fact Siege pressure to break the front and hopefully kill/delay the natural expansion. I follow up with an expansion and then a 2 base 1-1-1.
Parting is so gosu O_O. The issue becomes that the Forge expand is much more player friendly.
Can't you just take super fast third because the guy just invested at least 300 minerals on useless defense (forge+cannon)? It's better imho.
Ive been tooling around with this, and i have to say i love the results so far, i follow this up by continuing production with another 2 sentries (after the stalker), and adding 3 more gates when the cybercore is about half way done upgrading WG's, and push the terran nat with a followup 4 gate, i find this opening to be spot on for fluidly gearing up for a very hard to deal with attack at their front, while i drop my second and third gasses back home and a twilight (robo optional).
But honestly ive played 5 games so far and the pressure at the front has broken every terran i've faced. There was one guy that went mass hellion, so i walled in my nat and main ramp with pylons and gates, threw down a twilight and just went like 6 gate blink, negated any hellion damage and my push back ended the game.
Very good build IMO, i'll definantly be playing around more with it
I experimented with a followup from this build that is like a 3 stalker rush.
After the first zealot is started, start one probe, and then make another gateway. Chronoboost warpgate twice, and chronoboost the second and third stalkers once each. After starting stalkers 2 and 3, cut probes and make a pylon and other gateway, then resume probes. When the stalkers finish, make a sentry and a zealot, and then the second assimilator and a pylon.
If you send the first zealot and stalker towards the terran base, it scouts a marine scv all-in very late (nearly at your natural). In this case, sacrifice the natural and wall the top of the main ramp with three pylons, trying to delay until your other stalkers finish. Maybe cancel the third gateway for more minerals. I don't know if this is safe from a marine scv all-in, but you have more units than the standard 1 gateway into 2 gateways at about 5 minutes would.
If the terran is 2-3 raxing and you need the units desperately, you can chrono the sentry and zealot, and then chronoboost warpgate as soon as you have the energy. Transform the gateways into warpgates and warp in almost whatever units you want (There might not be enough minerals for 3 stalkers, but 2 stalkers and 1 zealot will be ok; also, there may not be enough gas for 3 sentries, but 2 sentries and 1 zealot should be ok). This gives you 6 units before 6:20 (2 zealots, 3 stalkers, 1 sentry) and 9 units before 6:40 (probably 3 zealots, 5 stalkers, 1 sentry). These benchmarks are about the same as those in kcdc's 1 gate fe build, which he says is enough to beat a 2 rax. This is also better than what I was able to do with a 1 gate into 3 gate build. I assume someone better than me would be able to get better timings (I'm in platinum league).
The downside of this build is fewer probes; my tests gave me 3-5 fewer probes at 6:30 (compared to the 1 gate into 3 gate 2 rax defense). However, if the first zealot and stalker don't see anything coming, you can probably chronoboost probes and keep constant probe production and only be a few workers behind. Also, the build as said above would die to cloaked banshees. If you make a robo right after starting the 2 stalkers, then I'm not sure if that would be in time.
Is this build any good, and when (if at all) should it be used?
Quite frankly, the three stalker rush is rather outdated and ineffective right now as more and more players are just dropped the bunker as soon as the CC finishes or even beforehand. I'd say the safest build right now is the robo-2gate followup.
I find most terran all-ins stoppable with this build, if I don't it's mostly my micro slip ups, but I am never even close to defending proxy marauders... they hit at time when my first stalker is about to pop out, and zealot + stalker < 2 marauders with concshell. Any advice?
On May 29 2012 08:10 Tommyth wrote: I find most terran all-ins stoppable with this build, if I don't it's mostly my micro slip ups, but I am never even close to defending proxy marauders... they hit at time when my first stalker is about to pop out, and zealot + stalker < 2 marauders with concshell. Any advice?
Probes are excellent vs marauders. Dont hesitate vs certain all ins to mass overmake probes, they are great vs marauders (for swarming and dealing damage or forcing shots away from your zealot/stalker/s and vs a lot of all ins, you can either have enough probes left to be far ahead even after losing a lot of them, or you can simply swarm the terran with them to overcome his army. In particular, with this opening or 15 nexus vs the supply drop 12 marine 12 scv at 5:00-5:20 timing, you can only have 1 gate of production, no warpgate, by far your best choice is to simply mass build probes and accept their use as an army unit when the time comes, as you have no time to build gateways and your nexii can take their place as production facilities
EPT
PartinG 1gate FE seems to have been a little overshadowed by the PvT forge expand.
TheStC @ ESV ClouD Kingdom [vod]
lol
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