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MilExo
South Africa139 Posts
Suggestions: - Caps Lock is easily to accidentally press instead of Shift, so what about swapping Caps Lock and ~ around? That way it can serve as another army hotkey and cancel is still close at hand. Aside from someone like printf who is a master at cannon rushing, I don't think the rest of us mere mortals would need to be able to cancel THAT quickly. - Caps Lock is still setup as a rapid-fire button. This can probably be removed. | ||
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bobo38
France220 Posts
I prefer keep the group as they are, most of us are not using all of them. Putting Cancel on Grave in place Escape does not make really sense. From my perspective, there is some value in getting an accessible Cancel key. I need to test that and see, maybe there are better ideas for CapsLock usage. Of course at the end of the process, due to the nature of Cancel command, it could be really easy to assign this key to something else | ||
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bobo38
France220 Posts
– Advanced Build on E is really natural – Return Cargo on F is kind of OK – Cancel on CapsLock does not bring much as you expected MilExo… it's funny to find your pinky on Escape asking yourself “why this cancel does not work ?” I realized that I mainly use it to fix errors I got in touch with some TheCore guy (BeedeBdoo) about the Cancel key position whose answer was: ah, that button we put it there, because that button is pressed by the thumb it is the only regularly used thumb button which isn't a modifier (shift, ctrl, alt) it's very hard to misclick that button - so by putting cancel on it, we make cancelling very deliberate the button also had its problems: It's hard to repeatedly press it quickly with the thumb. This is bad for unit production - say we put ghost on it, and we're trying to make 4 ghosts in a row, that sucks even if the button is quite accessible. Cancelling does not have this issue as much It looks like main design choice is "avoid misclick" and is driven by tilted keyboard usage in TheCore that needs another key as Escape to be used I review the entire settings for Multiplayer and found some more CapsLock usage here and there (those which were not conflicting with Cancel), and as well as some broken things due to alternates (when capslock was an alternate, or had an alternate). It's now fixed on master branch | ||
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MilExo
South Africa139 Posts
it's funny to find your pinky on Escape asking yourself “why this cancel does not work ?” I realized that I mainly use it to fix errors There are only two scenarios that I can think of (both protoss) where there is a benefit from being able to cancel quickly:
I prefer keep the group as they are, most of us are not using all of them. I had a chat with some TheCore users (like PiG and Probe) and they both prefer having 4 control groups for production instead of two. So maybe looking into recommended control groups could be useful. Or if we're saying that we don't want to use all 10 control groups, it might make sense to bring a couple of other things closer and easier to press? | ||
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bobo38
France220 Posts
 Current thinking for CapsLock: The more I think about that, the more sense makes the idea of getting a group on CapsLock. Getting a row "CapsLock-A-S" for 3 army groups for kind of "melee-range-caster" approach would be really nice… About cancel usage, I have not thought about the adept application. For zerg, there are "hatch-cancel-evo", "extractor trick", "morph-unit-to-save-it+cancel", on to of traditional menu browsing and queue management. All in all, if we balance with misclick probability and effort for change, it probably does not make much sense 2 macro versus 4 macro keys: I personnally mapped the backward/forwardMouseButton to my mouse wheel which is really comfortable, then the single queen-prod button becomes really comfortable to get an overview and act. Progamers and hardcore users may have problem to adjust new habbits because of hand memory, sometimes guys are reporting that they were not able to change from their hacked standard or grid usage, they are too used to | ||
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Gubert
15 Posts
alt+Q - bad CapsLock for esc-bad 4 control groups for production - good, personally i will think how to change layout so i can use 4 control production groups. | ||
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bobo38
France220 Posts
– Understood your point with Alt+Q for camera usage – Would you keep the CapsLock usage as it is? – What would be your perfect group placement? with groups used for 4 macro groups? I try to understand what could be done to share [Commands] section and allow enough hackability in the [Hotkeys] section | ||
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Gubert
15 Posts
For control groups maybe 1-4 for production and qwaszx for army? for example 1- cc,2- baracks|factory|starport or just baracks,3-factory,4-starport. qwas are the easiest keys to press so it will motivate everyne to use at least 4 groups for army:q- all army,w-tanks, a - liberators, s-ghosts, z and x for drops and harass groups. Problems: ` is unused and we need new key for lift off in place where you cant accidentally press it.(now its on 4 and it works good with q w production) Yes here is a big difference but i dont think changes like capslock to 4 for ebay change much. I will play with these control groups. Or maybe you already tested something like this? In current layout its hard to use zx or `123 and i feel like 1234(or even 1-2 or 3-4 for production in 2 groups) - production and qwaszx for army is very good in theory but need testing. | ||
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MilExo
South Africa139 Posts
Capslock is better than e because e->d or r - same finger twice in a row and its slower and less comfortable Actually, the easiest isn't to never move your hand, but just to shift it back and forth slightly. So you shift it slightly to the right and press E with your middle finger and then R or D with your index finger.You don't really build advanced buildings that much (except for terran mech). Protoss and zerg don't really have too much use for multiple advanced buildings and when you do, it will probably only be once or twice in the game. I would definitely prefer easily accessible keys for things I do more often. Build basic is important since protoss and terran frequently need to build more supply buildings. For control groups maybe 1-4 for production and qwaszx for army? Definitely disagree with this. Please read this as it is really a nice way of keeping up with your macro.In current layout its hard to use zx or `123 This I definitely agree with.i feel like 1234(or even 1-2 or 3-4 for production in 2 groups) - production and qwaszx for army is very good in theory but need testing I have experimented with the layout you suggest, but the problem I experienced was that production is very difficult then. You would probably have your home row on 1 - 4 so the only easy production key that you would have is E. Everything else you need to have quite some hand movement in order to train units while you have more keys available when you have your production on QW. Switching from macro to micro will be great with this because you can easily curl your fingers down from 1 - 4 and start using QWAS for microing units.@bobo38 and Gubert: What about the following suggestion?
What do you guys think? | ||
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MrFatalistic
United States26 Posts
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bobo38
France220 Posts
@MilExo: I do like the cloning approach you suggested, that keeps the overview with unique prod key from which you can clone stuff on need. The cloned building groups being able to get different rally points and simple "one touch" group recall bottom from the "3 group" of main army what you are describing is more or less the current main seed (I still need to polish it a bit because of reluctant conflict messages that I do not understand), apart from the non-steal part. For your Starport and Robo clones you can already use the easy cloning with Ctrl+Alt, which is really easy for Z and X Of course hard coding it in your local copy is not a big massive change, and it is the type of flexibility I want to keep with TheCore Lite (don't mess up the [Commands] section but get compability with reasonable smart solutions for most use cases). It is a really good point for the CapsLock key used for an additional group 123 used for harass has good synergy with E for special ability and unload, with cancel on Grave we may get some useful placement for adept, and canon rush | ||
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MilExo
South Africa139 Posts
I forgot about the easy cloning. You're right, it will work great with Z and X. Feels like everything is really coming together nicely. | ||
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Gubert
15 Posts
Maybe there is already something like that? | ||
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MilExo
South Africa139 Posts
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Gubert
15 Posts
Also e for advanced buildings is good. | ||
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bobo38
France220 Posts
– most times: Control for "append to group steal" (can be used to create group, divide main army to attack on multiple fronts) – less times: Control+Shift for "create group steal" (useful when you want to kick a unit out of a group to stay in place and create map vision, an alternative here been to append this particular unit to a dummy group) – others never! The steal version is in most cases superior to the non-steal. But non-steal has some benefits in some cases – append non-steal to get easy access to casters in a "many unit types" death ball, or to get a better control of ninja stalkers to get better engagement after A-moving the death ball (this one I suggested to use for keeping buildings in main production macro group)JaKaTaK's protoss 10 groups video – create group steal could be used for really sophisticated cloned groups, the second group getting 1 unit less that the first, then you can easily run one single zergling into banelings like shown in this video control group cloning "Append Steal" is more useful than the others because: – it adds units to an existing group – it can create a group because you can add units to groups of 0 units – it remove units from any other group, most often you want units to be assign to a single group (apart of some really particular cases) | ||
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MilExo
South Africa139 Posts
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bobo38
France220 Posts
(it's funny that we are answering at the same time so often ) | ||
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bobo38
France220 Posts
I noticed that: – he had talked about a "scout group" to append units to: kind of "forget me" group (the "dummy group" I was talking about) – last portion of the video is dedicated to groups dedicated to get direct access to units supposed to be as well in main army group (he more or less suggest each one to find their way and adjust official .SC2Hotkeys to the most efficient thing in their case) The confusing situation he is describing at the beginning of the video does not happened with TheCore Lite because it is dedicated to the left side of the keyboard and we do not have to support the funny broken way Windows deals with AltGr key | ||
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Gubert
15 Posts
bobo38 Where can I see changes you made in last version of corelite?(capslock etc) | ||
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