EPT[PvT] Counter mass banshees - Page 2
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Sanix
Switzerland37 Posts
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
Even if you just have 1-2 phoenix left after the battle you can chase down any leftover banshees. So what you don't want to do: get a ton of stalkers or go nuts on air (like many phoenix). My experience is based on fighting people in masters league. Every once in a while I run into cloaked banshee expand into this 2 base timing and by doing this it's np to crush it. If you face the same unit composition without an allin timing and scvs being pulled it's even easier to hold. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
Like, old BW style mech. The tanks just do so much damage with banshees. I guess I should try a lot of storms and chargelots. | ||
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Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
I lose when they get a starport early on and get phoenix. But HT is the key… lots and lots of storm You shouldn’t attack either.. you should turtle hard and force them to engage your cannons with your army. That added firepower and detection is huge. Also sending big packs of zealots into mineral lines as you would a zerg is a big help.. it forces lots of planetarys instead of orbitals. Watch out for ghosts in late game.. couple EMPs on your HT and GG.. I always mix in a healthy number of BCs and ghosts in late game. Oh and I almost lost a game where he tried an archon toilet on my banshees… I think had he pulled it off I definitely would have lost…. Banshees love to stack so use that to your advantage and get some splash damage | ||
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Gantritor
Italy112 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Newbiesk
United States27 Posts
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
Bad:Stalkers,they not cost efficient. you could pick up small groups of banshee but mass stalker against mass banshee banshee win Bad:Storms, not sure why this is recommanded so often but storm i dont find efficient at all against banshee. They are fast and dont sit in storm for long, beside that they are difficult to hit, even with flyer helper on. Edit:Ok why i find storm against banshee alot worse then storm against bio or siege tanks is that storm just chases the banshees away, its true they cant engage through several storms (nothing realy can unfortunatly) but they can easily escape engagements because they relativly fast and are air units and dont die to the first 1/2 ticks of a storm (unlike bio and tanks, my bio and tanks always die to storms, my banshees somehow never do) still storming before making archon wont hurt i guess. Bad:Feedback, well its good if you can get them off on banshees with full energy but banshees are either cloaked or have 25 energy so it doesnt do damage much, feedbacking a mass of 12+ banshees is also not so easy to perform for most players. Good: Archons, they extremely good if they get in range.. mass banshee is often stacked and 1 hit of a archon does more damage then 1 tick of a storm Good: Phoenix, they absolutely rape banshee but protoss cant easily afford all its techpaths so its a trade of and might make protos main army (to) weak. Good: Other protoss air, they good but a big commitment. Good: Cannons, unlike voidrays banshees are not good against turrets and cannons,cannons cant realy help you fight outside your base though. Good: Attack upgrades. banshees are fragile and the faster they die the less they deal out their good dps. Bad: Armour upgrades, banshees do 12 damage a shot so 1 extra armour reduces their damage by less then 10% ,attack upgrade is more efficient. The power of the mass air is in the stacking, every unit attacks and focusfire happens near automatically. Against that archons (splash) are best basicly (and they good in general, they take even longer to kill then a zealot.) but their range might be a problem. | ||
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Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
Bad:Storms, not sure why this is recommanded so often but banshees but storm i dont find efficient at all against banshee. They are fast and dont sit in storm for long, beside that they are difficult to hit, even with flyer helper on. Strorms are vastly easier to hit vs. Good: Archons, they extremely good if they get in range.. mass banshee is often stacked and 1 hit of a archon does more damage then 1 tick of a storm I compleetly agree that Archons are good... dont get me wrong.. but completely disagree that storm is "Bad" In comparison...You can cast storm from a distance.. the archons have to get close.. and banshees can just shoot from highground and archons will never engage. No offense... but Pheonix > Storm > Archons > Stalkers. | ||
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rebotfc
United Kingdom144 Posts
They are not so good late game because T will have BC and multiple ravens. A couple of good seeker missiles and its GG. Far better to have HT which are useful the entire length of the game, and upgraded stalkers. | ||
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ZeroSix
England54 Posts
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Gsk
8 Posts
http://drop.sc/181258 Two replays of me playing against heavy banshee play, you rarely meet these kind of builds on ladder therefor my decissions and counters against it is far from optional but hopefully they can be helpful still !  High master on EU btw | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
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Deleted User 255289
281 Posts
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Rivkeh
United States58 Posts
On April 30 2012 09:20 Kukaracha wrote: This. I play Sky Terran at Diamond / Masters level and the right anwser is to : 1) Pump a few Phoenixes (don't mass them, they're simply there for air control around your base) 2) Get Council, get Blink 3) Tech to HTs. The Robo should be only pumping Obs when necessary, always have extra more in case he snipes them. Phoenixes however help eating Viking fire unless he manages to target fire the Obs, which can be difficult in the midst of battle. Meanwhile, you should be mass expanding with mass cannons. The Terran will have a very fragile army and it's difficult for him to engage you head-on, so most of the damage will come from harass/Nexii sniping. Now, why do you want Phoenixes at all? Because Cannons aren't enough. If I see a Toss defend with only Cannons, I will harass from three spots at once, sniping Pylons, the Cyber Core, Probes, Assimilators (huge gas loss), etc. So get those Phoenixes and Observer speed and all harass will be denied. A LOT of damage can be dealt with Banshees, even when scouted. Better be safe than sorry. Quoted for being absolutely correct, especially stating the steps in order. A few things I wanted to add, the first phoenix you get will push back banshees and grab your air space, a quick dart into their base can confirm if they're commiting to sky (at least as many starports as bases, tech labs still on after initial 1-3 banshees), or gearing up for a pseudo-1/1/1 (2/2/2?, bio+banshee, whatever). Once you know what you're dealing with getting plenty of observers and spreading them out will be key. Sky Terran relies on putting P in awkward positions, hitting from varied and multiple angles, demolishing Ps detection quickly and efficiently since both sources, cannons and obs, have very low HP, then letting their banshees reign over your base. Having phoenix to threaten banshees away is key because it takes away the mobility (movement speed AND flight) advantage away from Terran. Once sky terran is confirmed you can steadily increase phoenix count, since phoenix build so fast and you have chrono you shouldnt have to go beyond 1 stargate. If the Terran tries to take air dominance with vikings you've now flipped the tables and you've got the mobility advantage against Terran. Here's a few things to consider: 1.) Due to the high gas cost of vikings and banshees (and potentially ravens for PDD), Terran can not overwhelm phoenix with vikings while maintaining a high banshee count 2.) Vikings are pretty darn slow, if they come to pick a fight with phoenix, you can just back off, if they try so hard they get into your base a quick blink under will remind T never to try that again 3.) Phoenix DEMOLISH banshees, whereas vikings only slowly whittle down phoenix. If Terran comes in with a mixed armed force of vikings and banshees, and maybe ravens, a quick run in with phoenix target firing the banshees can quickly remove any air to ground threat, even if a banshee or two survives he wont have enough to put pressure on in the face of stalkers, cannons and conventional ground defences. Your immediate goal as P should be to negate the sky terran's ability to put on pressure via phoenix and blink stalkers, and your long term goal is tech to HT. The HT tech will keep you safe in case terran comes in with a bio+air attack later on. Furthermore, once you've gotten free from Sky pressure, you should be free to expand, and so long as you don't over commit to phoenix (1 stargate should be enough to scramble some phoenix with chrono without over committing) you should be ready to field a standard ground composition to deal with any futile switches to bio. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On April 30 2012 01:42 FreedomMurder wrote: I don't recommend going air units at all. I've played vs. mass banshee a lot recently and i've learned a few key things. You need storm eventually but thats already mentioned above. Going Phoenix leaves you really vulnerable to tech switches. You CANNOT rely on stalkers in the midgame unless you have blink. Actually you can't really rely on stalkers at all, but you need blink stalkers to survive till storm. Counter attack, if you see yourself losing to the banshees in a straight up fight with your stalkers. Just counter attack. Chances are with mass banshee they only have minerals to defend at home (bunkers and marines) use obs to blink onto high ground, or warp prism harass. Forcing the banshees to leave you base is way better than trying to survive and losing all your stalkers. When I played Sky Terran, I won most from base trades and building up expansions in different corners of the map while killing off the pylons and nexi of the Protoss and keeping him from producing more units while slowly getting an advantage. Going for small blink stalker harassment works okay, since you can snipe refineries, SCV's, and starport addons, but you can't do more than that without committing way too hard. | ||
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lugaidster
Chile30 Posts
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
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unit
United States2621 Posts
On April 30 2012 01:00 -orb- wrote: Storm is pretty much the only way. Sky terran is something I struggled against a lot in the past. You can't do any of the conventional methods that seem logical (blink stalkers, phoenix etc). If they are going pure sky terran, storm is truly the only way to win. Obviously supporting your storms with whatever counters the rest of their army (such as blink stalkers or colossi if they have ground as well etc) is important too. this + feedback and mass obs, then mass expanding (since they'll be doing that too) grab some air upgrades to be ready for a ht carrier switch (if they go +3 mass bc in addition to a few ravens and a few banshees this is the strongest composition imo (though someone like avilo will still wreck me by getting off a few good emps on my ht before yamatoing me :x) since you will have a lot of extra minerals you can also try some mass chargelot drops in multiple locations as the terran won't want to split up his air ball so you should get a good deal of damage in :D all in all it's a tough style to deal with but having a good plan makes life so much easier | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
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Thunderflesh
United States382 Posts
On May 17 2012 00:43 ref4 wrote: I loss to a Terran massing Banshees once, felt bad man, I felt like there was nothing I could do, he flew in and basically killed my entire economy, and equal number of banshees beat equal number of stalkers, so wow, sky terran is actually quite effective vs. a protoss, I wonder why no pros have done it? I think pros don't tend to do it because (at least how I do it) it's somewhat vulnerable to all-ins, if your build has you pushing out before the protoss has too many HTs (like some people have said, storm is the proper reaction to mass banshee). The build works well in part because it capitalizes on the current metagame, where protoss players are more than happy to sit back and macro. A timing attack that hits before cloak is done and the terran has too many banshees can be very effective against this kind of build. | ||
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